Calling out AIPAC is anti-Semitic

[JamieDimonsBalls]

The greatest long term threat to the Jewish state is demographics. At that point Israel will either cease to be a Jewish state or will be completely authoritarian. Political will is short sighted.

That's what happens when you have an uneducated poor that don't care about overpopulating. Sound familiar?

 

[Hoopsdoc1978]

Appreciate the discussion, but surely you jest... and I do not support "pulling out" I support ending our occupations and warfare. Have you ever watched Starship Troopers? You kill 1 and 10 more develop. You can't shoot yourself out of this mess.



I could not more vehemently disagree with this. Look at the case of Yemen. We are refueling Saudi fighter jets conducting sorties of school, hospitals, school buses. I'd say the Houthis have a pretty damn good casus belli for attacking the United States. Do you have any idea how much we have increased anti-American sentiment among that population?

Oh and how about the American made weapons that have made their hands into ISIS and now Al Qaeda? (And this was done by our "allies"). What a sham.

https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2019/02/middleeast/yemen-lost-us-arms/



The Saudis are the biggest problem globally. They are the elephant in the room that is ignored because "IRAN"!

Travel anywhere around the globe and the Saudi money is plowing in for Sharia. EVERYWHERE. This is the real long-term threat.

https://www.dw.com/en/radicalization-in-bosnia/av-43144123



Yea, that's precisely why human intelligence is so important. (I suppose the Israelis are beneficial in this regard.) I strongly support intelligence gathering throughout the ME. That's not "pulling out". Fyi, what do you think happens to recruiting when you promise visas and benefits to sources putting their lives on the line and then renege on those benefits? That's the current status quo. I generally support drone strikes and special ops raids as well.

I’m not big on nation building and occupation myself, but if the end result of withdrawal is ISIS, as it was in Iraq, then I’d just as soon not leave. And I say that knowing full well that we had no business being there in the first place.

But once we’re there, it’s our obligation to leave stability when we go, regardless of how long that takes.

Edit-and yes, I’m aware that you do not favor total withdrawal. I’m just stating my opinion. Also, you’re absolutely right about the Saudis.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

About Israel specifically, I used to be a big supporter of Israel. I think Israel under Netanyahu has moved away from the roots of the Israel govt, which were based on secularism and democracy. Israel at it currently exists is not a democracy and is not secular. After my birthright trip, I realized I share nothing in common with these people.

Seems silly to say you aren't a supporter of Israel just because of far right influence. That's like saying you hate the U.S. just because Orange Man bad. The rest of the people and things be damned.

Most Israelis are increasingly more secular, particularly the Jews.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

That’s the good news.

The bad news is, according to your link, that’s the lowest number supporting a two state solution in 20 years. That’s not good.

It doesn't matter because the Palestinians want a two state solution with pre-1967 borders and Israelis aren't going to support that.

 

[toastedbread]

You are correct about members of Congress and it’s one of the reasons they’re historically untrustworthy when it comes to protecting classified information. Fortunately, the majority of them don’t have the “need to know” required for access to Top Secret and SCI information. You are also right that that is generally limited to the Intel Committees, and sometimes only selected members of those.

However, don’t doubt that background checks are still conducted and records are maintained.

Good job on that one.

So why exactly do you oppose a requirement that members of Congress declare dual citizenship? How exactly is that any different from a financial conflict? If a member of the US Congress possess Russian citizenship conveyed on them by state order, I sure as hell hope that is public. Heck, Ilhan Omar herself maybe a dual citizen. The point is that we have no idea and that kind of information should be public.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

So why exactly do you oppose a requirement that members of Congress declare dual citizenship? How exactly is that any different from a financial conflict? If a member of the US Congress possess Russian citizenship conveyed on them by state order, I sure as hell hope that is public. Heck, Ilhan Omar herself maybe a dual citizen. The point is that we have no idea and that kind of information should be public.

Are you suggesting that if your wife became a U.S. citizen, should would always be less American because she wasn't born here?

 

[toastedbread]

Are you suggesting that if your wife became a U.S. citizen, should would always be less American because she wasn't born here?

Not in the least. It's also extremely difficult if not impossible to renounce Iranian citizenship. I simply believe that this should be public information if she decided to run for office.

 

[Hoopsdoc1978]

It doesn't matter because the Palestinians want a two state solution with pre-1967 borders and Israelis aren't going to support that.

If I’m not mistaken, the Israelis at one point offered 95 percent of the pre 67 borders, along with a few other stipulations regarding access to holy sites, and were summarily dismissed.

 

[toastedbread]

That's what happens when you have an uneducated poor that don't care about overpopulating. Sound familiar?

Doesn't ring a bell, but I know what you mean. Are you referring to a specific country/group?

 

[toastedbread]

I’m not big on nation building and occupation myself, but if the end result of withdrawal is ISIS, as it was in Iraq, then I’d just as soon not leave. And I say that knowing full well that we had no business being there in the first place.

But once we’re there, it’s our obligation to leave stability when we go, regardless of how long that takes.

That's fair. But we have been in Afghanistan for 18 years now. There has been no progress made. The situation is deteriorating. At some point you can't keep throwing good money after bad. We do not understand these countries and cultures.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

Not in the least. It's also extremely difficult if not impossible to renounce Iranian citizenship. I simply believe that this should be public information if she decided to run for office.

I'm all for transparency, but she would face unfair criticism and people (more on the right than the left) would hold it against her. How is that fair?

I don't hold Omar's place of birth against her, just her religiousness and perspective.

 

[toastedbread]

I'm all for transparency, but she would face unfair criticism and people (more on the right than the left) would hold it against her. How is that fair?

Criticism for where she was born? Those folks wouldn't vote for her regardless.

 

[toastedbread]

Seems silly to say you aren't a supporter of Israel just because of far right influence. That's like saying you hate the U.S. just because Orange Man bad. The rest of the people and things be damned.

Most Israelis are increasingly more secular, particularly the Jews.

I support Israel's right to exist. I believe that we should have some kind of alliance with them. I strongly disagree with American tax payers supporting them to the tune of over 3 billion+ per year. I strongly believe that the Israeli lobby holds an outsize influence on Washington to the detriment of American interests.

Again, I previously felt some kind of emotional connection to the state of Israel... like it's well, your homeland... After I visited, I realized that I have nothing in common with the populace and felt no particular affinity for the place. As for the right, opinion polls show that Israeli's support Trump to the tune of 80%+. I think Israelis and Americans are living in different universes. For Israelis, everything is seen through the prism of security.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

If I’m not mistaken, the Israelis at one point offered 95 percent of the pre 67 borders, along with a few other stipulations regarding access to holy sites, and were summarily dismissed.

It wasn't quite that much, at least not initially.

Based on the Israeli definition of the West Bank, Barak offered to form a Palestinian state initially on 73% of the West Bank (that is, 27% less than the Green Line borders) and 100% of the Gaza Strip. In 10–25 years, the Palestinian state would expand to a maximum of 92% of the West Bank (91 percent of the West Bank and 1 percent from a land swap).[5][7] From the Palestinian perspective this equated to an offer of a Palestinian state on a maximum of 86% of the West Bank.[5]

Palestinians will never accept Israeli air control, a necessary part to Israeli demands.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

For Israelis, everything is seen through the prism of security.

If you think about it from the Israeli perspective, it shouldn't be that hard to realize why that is. After being at war constantly, there is no trust, particularly with the way the Muslim Arabs talk and walk.

 

[toastedbread]

If you think about it from the Israeli perspective, it shouldn't be that hard to realize why that is. After being at war constantly, there is no trust, particularly with the way the Muslim Arabs talk and walk.

Oh, I understand why that is. It doesn't mean that I have to agree with it or support it. Specifically, when we are the ones paying for these policies.

 

[toastedbread]

I’m not big on nation building and occupation myself, but if the end result of withdrawal is ISIS, as it was in Iraq, then I’d just as soon not leave. And I say that knowing full well that we had no business being there in the first place.

But once we’re there, it’s our obligation to leave stability when we go, regardless of how long that takes.

Edit-and yes, I’m aware that you do not favor total withdrawal. I’m just stating my opinion. Also, you’re absolutely right about the Saudis.

@DrHoops

Something that I'm certain Trump supporters would "love" dws...

Saudi nationals have been on a rampage in this country murdering and raping American citizens, while being snuck out of the country on fake passports and private planes through the assistance of the Saudi embassy.

This is an unbelievable outrage that is not receiving any media coverage.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46676200
https://www.oregonlive.com/news/201...ts-vanishing-while-facing-oregon-charges.html

That's only in Oregon... imagine how many potential cases there are nationwide... hundreds to thousands I suppose.

 

[hoot1]

Those are very vague statements and positions. What type of two state solution does it support (e.g. borders pre-1967 or current)? Does Pro-Israel conflict with Pro-Peace?

To my knowledge J Street has not taken a position on what the borders in a settlement should be.

J Street simply advocates for American leadership and American Jews to do everything possible in achieving a two state solution along with achieving a broader regional peace between Arabs and Jews.