Book banning that suspiciously looks like what all the snowflakes are worried about

[kraft cheese+macaroni]

Look up anti-racism in schools, on the WaterCooler or Google. Check out the thread on FAIR highlighting Oak Park D97 specifics. If you don't think anti-racism is the same thing as CRT, please look that discussion up on the WC threads as well because it's been discussed ad naseum. Or read some books on the subject--I'd start with John McWhorter's new one, Woke Racism.

If you are serious about this and actually curious, send me a private message and I'll discuss it with you or try to send you some helpful links to get you started.

I'm actually a little bit more interested in why teaching the actual history of our country is bad, no matter what label you put on it. Why is this so problematic for people? Why can't I learn something about my ancestor's past misgivings but not feel guilty about it myself?

Is red lining a fact of our history?
Were Jim Crow laws facts of our history?

Why do people have an issue with those things being taught? Because it makes them feel uncomfortable? That's like Germany not teaching about the Holocaust.

 

[mcmurtry66]

I'm actually a little bit more interested in why teaching the actual history of our country is bad, no matter what label you put on it. Why is this so problematic for people? Why can't I learn something about my ancestor's past misgivings but not feel guilty about it myself?

Is red lining a fact of our history?
Were Jim Crow laws facts of our history?

Why do people have an issue with those things being taught? Because it makes them feel uncomfortable? That's like Germany not teaching about the Holocaust.

I don't know anyone who has a problem with those facts being taught. Because the laws and events are facts. The issue arises when you have questions that are subject to interpretation and extrapolation taught by a far lefty that's prejudiced, by way of example

So you say at the genesis of many of our institutions blacks didn't have a seat at the table. Because they didn't participate at the advent there are inherent prejudices built into these institutions and systems. This gives rise to an imbalance of power today that inures to the benefit of whites. How do you teach that? How do you prove causation without bias? And to what end? A remedy?

 

[stollcpa]

This thread has been a hoot. It's funny watching posters, who are ignorant, rail about teacher unions...in

I'm actually a little bit more interested in why teaching the actual history of our country is bad, no matter what label you put on it. Why is this so problematic for people? Why can't I learn something about my ancestor's past misgivings but not feel guilty about it myself?

Is red lining a fact of our history?
Were Jim Crow laws facts of our history?

Why do people have an issue with those things being taught? Because it makes them feel uncomfortable? That's like Germany not teaching about the Holocaust.

No one I know has a problem teaching those things. Maybe you didn’t pay attention in school. I was taught those things red neck rubeville southern Indiana. More than that is going on in some CRT teachings.
L

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

No one I know has a problem teaching those things. Maybe you didn’t pay attention in school. I was taught those things red neck rubeville southern Indiana. More than that is going on in some CRT teachings.
L

Why did you copy my post...partially?

 

[stollcpa]

Why did you copy my post...partially?

Not paying attention. I tried to fix it and can’t. Sorry.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

CO. Hoosier's post about CRT in elementary schools

This is why I wanted some specific examples because I don't believe it.

You can find at least a dozen of these books with an easy internet search. They are used because I’ve heard and read various educators at various times brag about using them.

 

[jet812]

That’s not CRT. Of course there are many books about that. And sorry, but they should have racial consciousness and sins of the past imbedded forever. Just like sex education, depends how it’s taught and when .

Nope. They need to be taught that people should be treated the same regardless of their skin color, not taught that the first thing they should look for is “what color is someone & how should I treat them based on that?” My child doesn’t need to carry the sins of the past or have anything imbedded. History can be taught in history class with facts, events, & statistics to great effect without narratives or graphic novels. You can keep all of the shame, guilt, & self loathing for yourself.

 

[Mas-sa-suta]

Good teachers are grossly underpaid in my opinion. I’ve never understood teachers fighting being paid based on performance. Their argument to me is mostly they don’t trust administrators to apply it fairly.

And aren't the school administrators all former 'teachers'?

Who would know more about 'fairness' than their own ?

 

[bigmac76]

Like these 5 that have been banned by various schools?

5 Banned Books That Will Help You Learn About the Holocaust

One of the key consequences of book banning is erasure. When we decide that some things are too uncomfortable to talk about, we risk losing the memory of how things happen. We lose context, we lose people, we lose the truth.

www.oif.ala.org

I found Sophie's Choice to be an excellent read

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I'm actually a little bit more interested in why teaching the actual history of our country is bad, no matter what label you put on it. Why is this so problematic for people? Why can't I learn something about my ancestor's past misgivings but not feel guilty about it myself?

Is red lining a fact of our history?
Were Jim Crow laws facts of our history?

Why do people have an issue with those things being taught? Because it makes them feel uncomfortable? That's like Germany not teaching about the Holocaust.

Teaching CRT is not teaching history. Educators and others using books written for elementary school students teach that disparate impacts and present day conditions of POC are the result of a long history of white racism, using history you describe as examples. That history is seen as a current event. White kids are shamed and Black kids have hope stripped away.

There are many reasons why POC are underachieving. One of those no doubt is a history of racism. But the cure is in no meaningful way shaming white youngsters for slavery and Jim Crow.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

I'm actually a little bit more interested in why teaching the actual history of our country is bad, no matter what label you put on it. Why is this so problematic for people? Why can't I learn something about my ancestor's past misgivings but not feel guilty about it myself?

Is red lining a fact of our history?
Were Jim Crow laws facts of our history?

Why do people have an issue with those things being taught? Because it makes them feel uncomfortable? That's like Germany not teaching about the Holocaust.

Can you provide an example of a current objection to people being taught about Jim Crow and red lining? Or slavery?

 

[kraft cheese+macaroni]

Teaching CRT is not teaching history. Educators and others using books written for elementary school students teach that disparate impacts and present day conditions of POC are the result of a long history of white racism, using history you describe as examples. That history is seen as a current event. White kids are shamed and Black kids have hope stripped away.

There are many reasons why POC are underachieving. One of those no doubt is a history of racism. But the cure is in no meaningful way shaming white youngsters for slavery and Jim Crow.

You really believe white kids are taught to be personally ashamed? That they, themselves, should feel shame for what happened decades and centuries ago?

Because I feel ashamed for a lot of things that have happened in history and I understand the need to do better and do my part to not repeat or try not to allow the sins of the past to be repeated, but I in no way shape or form have personal shame over something I had nothing to do with.

If we can't learn about bad things in history and not feel a little bit of shame about those things, then what's really the point of learning the history anyway? The shame makes you understand this shouldn't happen again.

Is it possible that the people that lack empathy see being taught these things see it as shame and those of us that do have empathy see it as a way to learn and do better?

 

[kraft cheese+macaroni]

Can you provide an example of a current objection to people being taught about Jim Crow and red lining? Or slavery?

Red lining is an aspect of CRT. So, plenty of examples of opposition around the country.

 

[secondasky]

I'm actually a little bit more interested in why teaching the actual history of our country is bad, no matter what label you put on it. Why is this so problematic for people? Why can't I learn something about my ancestor's past misgivings but not feel guilty about it myself?

Is red lining a fact of our history?
Were Jim Crow laws facts of our history?

Why do people have an issue with those things being taught? Because it makes them feel uncomfortable? That's like Germany not teaching about the Holocaust.

Jim Crow and the Holocaust are history and have been taught for decades. History is not CRT.

 

[kraft cheese+macaroni]

Jim Crow and the Holocaust are history and have been taught for decades. History is not CRT.

Teaching how laws/policies were created and formed by the white establishment to put POC at a disadvantage isn't part of our history?

 

[mcmurtry66]

Teaching how laws/policies were created and formed by the white establishment to put POC at a disadvantage isn't part of our history?

That's where it gets muddy. Tantamount to generalized claims of systemic racism today in courts etc. Without specifics it's just a pretense to project and shame

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

Red lining is an aspect of CRT. So, plenty of examples of opposition around the country.

You can teach about the history of red lining without using anti-racism or CRT. It was done for decades prior to this new wave of woke racism (John McWhorter's words) in schools.

Again, do you have an example of anyone objecting to red-lining being taught in schools?

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Teaching how laws/policies were created and formed by the white establishment to put POC at a disadvantage isn't part of our history?

Of course it’s part of history. But teaching school kids that they are responsible for that racist history because their skin color is white is not. There might be an argument that suggests that todays white kids benefit from that history in ways that a black kid can’t, but that isn’t history either. And that argument which is part of CRT is not only a weak argument in today’s terms, it serves only to perpetuate race problems, not solve them.

 

[kraft cheese+macaroni]

Of course it’s part of history. But teaching school kids that they are responsible for that racist history because their skin color is white is not. There might be an argument that suggests that todays white kids benefit from that history in ways that a black kid can’t, but that isn’t history either. And that argument which is part of CRT is not only a weak argument in today’s terms, it serves only to perpetuate race problems, not solve them.

I was taught about slavery and Jim Crow. No one placed that burden at my feet.

To me, that's the real issue people are divided about. Why does learning something automatically suggest to you that they are being burdened with responsibility for it? I don't feel responsible for Jim Crow laws. Did you?

 

[kraft cheese+macaroni]

You can teach about the history of red lining without using anti-racism or CRT. It was done for decades prior to this new wave of woke racism (John McWhorter's words) in schools.

Again, do you have an example of anyone objecting to red-lining being taught in schools?

Red lining specifically? No. But red lining is an example of the things CRT is pointing out.

• Acknowledgement that racism is a normal feature of society and is embedded within systems and institutions, like the legal system, that replicate racial inequality. This dismisses the idea that racist incidents are aberrations but instead are manifestations of structural and systemic racism.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Red lining specifically? No. But red lining is an example of the things CRT is pointing out.

• Acknowledgement that racism is a normal feature of society and is embedded within systems and institutions, like the legal system, that replicate racial inequality. This dismisses the idea that racist incidents are aberrations but instead are manifestations of structural and systemic racism.

That's insane. My kid would transfer if I saw that on a curriculum.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Red lining specifically? No. But red lining is an example of the things CRT is pointing out.

• Acknowledgement that racism is a normal feature of society and is embedded within systems and institutions, like the legal system, that replicate racial inequality. This dismisses the idea that racist incidents are aberrations but instead are manifestations of structural and systemic racism.

The place where that is undoubtedly true is our educational system. Black youngsters mostly in large urban areas, receive shitty educations. Boys worse than girls. Teaching those kids that the reason they can’t read or do simple math is because of slavery or jim Crow is a dodge. Blacks run those cities and the schools. They need to look in the mirror. CRT is a way to avoid tough questions that need to be asked and answered.

 

[larsIU]

As an eighth grader, the only book I remember reading is Flowers for Algernon.

Funny story. Kid is a freshman. They are, like we (mostly) all did, reading a Shakespeare play in class. Out loud. Can't even remember which one it is.

At first she's frustrated b/c it's not a "book". I play along and say "you're reading it from a book, no?". She advises they are. I act confused. She goes on to explain how it's a PITA that it's in play format in the book and it would be easier if it were like a novel.

I advise it's not a novel, it's a play. They are different. She concedes. And, even comes around to noticing Shakespeare is often a smart ass and even funny at times.

There's hope yet.

 

[kraft cheese+macaroni]

The place where that is undoubtedly true is our educational system. Black youngsters mostly in large urban areas, receive shitty educations. Boys worse than girls. Teaching those kids that the reason they can’t read or do simple math is because of slavery or jim Crow is a dodge. Blacks run those cities and the schools. They need to look in the mirror. CRT is a way to avoid tough questions that need to be asked and answered.

You may have a decent point or two in there, but overall your point here is that it's a disservice to black people. Well, it's not black people objecting to CRT, it's lily white christians.

 

[kraft cheese+macaroni]

That's insane. My kid would transfer if I saw that on a curriculum.

I truly don't understand why any of that is triggering. So here is where not understanding the other side leads to conflict and frustration in society.

 

[mcmurtry66]

I truly don't understand why any of that is triggering. So here is where not understanding the other side leads to conflict and frustration in society.

I don't believe racism is a normal feature of society nor do I think it's embedded in our legal system etc.

I think a lot of what people see as racism is classism, particularly in the courts

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

That’s not CRT. Of course there are many books about that. And sorry, but they should have racial consciousness and sins of the past imbedded forever. Just like sex education, depends how it’s taught and when .

This should be Exhibit A for the next time someone questions whether anti-racism (read: CRT) is imbedded within school systems. Here we have an elementary school teacher admitting there are many books about white privilege written for children, taught in the school systems, and that those teacher's opinions on "racial consciousness" and "sins of the past" should be "imbedded forever" in children. All while laughing at the notion that "CRT" is being taught to elementary school kids by disingenuously claiming Kendi-defined anti-racism is not derived from CRT or that CRT isn't a catch-all phrase.

Red lining specifically? No. But red lining is an example of the things CRT is pointing out.

• Acknowledgement that racism is a normal feature of society and is embedded within systems and institutions, like the legal system, that replicate racial inequality. This dismisses the idea that racist incidents are aberrations but instead are manifestations of structural and systemic racism.

You may have a decent point or two in there, but overall your point here is that it's a disservice to black people. Well, it's not black people objecting to CRT, it's lily white christians.

You are wrong. Plenty of black people object to CRT. Black people can have different opinions about a wide range of issues and don’t all think alike. They have just as much critical thinking skills as white people and just as much agency.

FAIR is made up of all different ethnicities, including black people and Asian people and Jewish people, etc.

 

[kraft cheese+macaroni]

I don't believe racism is a normal feature of society nor do I think it's embedded in our legal system etc.

I think a lot of what people see as racism is classism, particularly in the courts

There's surely both. And I tend to have personal class biases more than I have racial ones. Not necessarily proud of it, but I recognize it.

But those instituting classism may be doing so for racist reasons knowing that the race most impacted by lower class policies is going to be black and brown.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I was taught about slavery and Jim Crow. No one placed that burden at my feet.

To me, that's the real issue people are divided about. Why does learning something automatically suggest to you that they are being burdened with responsibility for it? I don't feel responsible for Jim Crow laws. Did you?

The important feature of CRT, as evolution of CT, is to divide people into groups as a way to explain why one group thrives and the others don’t. Part of that is to teach that sordid history is not history, but a current event. We don’t feel responsible for slavery because we weren’t taught that.

 

[mcmurtry66]

There's surely both. And I tend to have personal class biases more than I have racial ones. Not necessarily proud of it, but I recognize it.

But those instituting classism may be doing so for racist reasons knowing that the race most impacted by lower class policies is going to be black and brown.

I don't believe it. If I got hit with a felony and had a choice to be white and broke or black with money I'd take black with money every time.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

The place where that is undoubtedly true is our educational system. Black youngsters mostly in large urban areas, receive shitty educations. Boys worse than girls. Teaching those kids that the reason they can’t read or do simple math is because of slavery or jim Crow is a dodge. Blacks run those cities and the schools. They need to look in the mirror. CRT is a way to avoid tough questions that need to be asked and answered.

Meanwhile, poor black males always receive the best legal representation.

 

[kraft cheese+macaroni]

This should be Exhibit A for the next time someone questions whether anti-racism (read: CRT) is imbedded within school systems. Here we have an elementary school teacher admitting there are many books about white privilege written for children, taught in the school systems, and that those teacher's opinions on "racial consciousness" and "sins of the past" should be "imbedded forever" in children. All while laughing at the notion that "CRT" is being taught to elementary school kids by disingenuously claiming Kendi-defined anti-racism has any connection to CRT or that CRT isn't a catch-all phrase.


You are wrong. Plenty of black people object to CRT. Black people can have different opinions about a wide range of issues and don’t all think alike. They have just as much ability to engage in critical thinking as white people and just as much agency.

FAIR is made up of all different ethnicities, including black people and Asian people and Jewish people, etc.

Ok, well find me the number of white politicians authoring CRT-based bills in states and the number of black ones and let's see how that pans out.

 

[kraft cheese+macaroni]

Here we have an elementary school teacher admitting there are many books about white privilege written for children, taught in the school systems, and that those teacher's opinions on "racial consciousness" and "sins of the past" should be "imbedded forever" in children.

Where did she say it was taught in schools?

Where did she say teacher's opinions?

She said one of those things...you jumped off a cliff and embellished/changed the other two things.

 

[kraft cheese+macaroni]

I don't believe it. If I got hit with a felony and had a choice to be white and broke or black with money I'd take black with money every time.

but would you choose white and broke or black and broke?

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

Where did she say it was taught in schools?

Where did she say teacher's opinions?

She said one of those things...you jumped off a cliff and embellished/changed the other two things.

“That’s not CRT. Of course there are many books about that [white privilege and racial consciousness] And sorry, but they [school children]should have racial consciousness and sins of the past imbedded forever. Just like sex education, depends how it’s taught and when .”[this is her opinion and her opinion about what is racial consciousness and sins of the past; she wrote it]

 

[CO. Hoosier]

You may have a decent point or two in there, but overall your point here is that it's a disservice to black people. Well, it's not black people objecting to CRT, it's lily white christians.

“Lilly white Cristians.”

Well at least you come by your prejudices honestly, but terribly misguided. There are a number of ways to describe opposition to CRT, “Lilly white Christmas“ is not among those.

I.m reading a book as I write this by a black guy a large part of which explains how he was dealt with by whites throughout his life and why he is mostly a conservative who strongly objects to CRT.

 

[mcmurtry66]

but would you choose white and broke or black and broke?

I've never once seen it make a difference. Hell the lead prosecutors are black

 

[kraft cheese+macaroni]

“That’s not CRT. Of course there are many books about that [white privilege and racial consciousness] And sorry, but they [school children]should have racial consciousness and sins of the past imbedded forever. Just like sex education, depends how it’s taught and when .”[this is her opinion and her opinion about what is racial consciousness and sins of the past; she wrote it]

I have opinions about how things should be done within my employer's company that run counter to how that company wants me to do them. Just because I hold an opinion about something doesn't mean that's how I execute it when it comes to doing my job.

And just because there are books doesn't mean it's in the curriculum/being taught.

 

[kraft cheese+macaroni]

“Lilly white Cristians.”

Well at least you come by your prejudices honestly, but terribly misguided. There are a number of ways to describe opposition to CRT, “Lilly white Christmas“ is not among those.

I.m reading a book as I write this by a black guy a large part of which explains how he was dealt with by whites throughout his life and why he is mostly a conservative who strongly objects to CRT.

That sounds a little bit like "I have a black friend'. Well, of course there's some black people wo object to CRT. But on the whole, who are the people raising the most hell about it? In the statehouses. In the school board meetings. It's white folks.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Meanwhile, poor black males always receive the best legal representation.

Go to any courtroom in any big city during Monday first appearances and tell me how many white boys you see in orange suits. For a myriad of reasons, black young men dominate the criminal justice system. It’s not because the system is racist. The system accepts offenders as they come.