Biden gets one right.

[Cthulhu85]

in reading your posts you're obviously a gun enthusiast. i have some in my family. i truly do understand. it sucks and is shitty we can't have fun things. because i understand how they can be fun. to me that doesn't outweigh the misery of worrying about kids - regardless of understanding the odds etc. the balance is clear for me. i don't give credence to the gov overthrow stuff nor personal defense. get a shotgun. if the gov moves on us we're f'd regardless, and i don't believe that will ever happen. i think we need more reg on assault weapons. if you say you can live with that number of kid deaths vs the personal enjoyment many derive then it simply is what it is. i don't think assault weapons are a national crisis

My biggest issue with the argument against them is it is ignoring the underlying problem because it's harder to solve.

I've mentioned using excise taxes from firearms sales for mental health funding, there are other compromises. But noone wants to listen because they just want the guns.

Here is what a compromise would look like:
Semi auto rifles could be purchased through the NFA process. In exchange, the ATF gets more funding for only processing applications. Right now there is about a 9 month approval time. Once approved you can make additional purchases of semi auto rifles without applying for an additional stamp. Other NFA items would still need an individual application.

You get a more thorough screening, a de facto wait time, and a financial hurdle.

 

[IUCrazy2]

There is one common denominator for country's that become slaves.... "It COULD NEVER happen here, we have laws".

Cool, me and my 200 million + fellow firearms owners will ensure, that stays true.

And I don't even own an AR so this isn't even necessarily personal to me. I just think that they serve a purpose and if saving the kids was really the aim, handguns would be the first type of firearm looked at.

 

[mattndallas]

We just fought 2 insurgencies overseas over the past 20 years and you guys still think that jets and heavy artillery would be the way that would go? You dropping JDAMs in the middle of suburbia?

The guns are insurance, nothing more or less. Maybe not you but plenty of people on that side of the aisle were/are saying that democracy itself might be over if Trump were to get back in charge. How could that happen with government we can vote for and courts? Erdogan was voted into office. Hugo Chavez was voted into office. He took away guns to protect the people too. They never got another real election to oust him or his successor since.

"That can't happen here." Why? Why are we so special that interests couldn't seize the government? People are people. Do I think the government is going to go authoritarian in my lifetime? I don't think so, but there are things happening right now that people are accepting of that I would have told you was crazy town 10 to 15 years ago.

I don't think guns should be turned on this government. I think guns should have been turned on Chavez and Erdogan. I don't want to give up the option should it be needed even in the high likelihood it won't.

Disregarding the federal civil way theory...

No one will ever want to send occupying troops here given the inability to disarm the US general population. It would NEVER wargame successfully.

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

While we all are in this cage match, I want to thank @CO. Hoosier for sponsoring this bought. This is a bi annual round robin that ends the same every time.
If I may make some promotional suggestions, could we get some "card girls" posted at the end of rounds?

 

[bawlmer]

No, because handguns are far and away the violence problem. It isn't even close.

I agree with this. No guns should be exempt from tort liability.

 

[IUCrazy2]

While we all are in this cage match, I want to thank @CO. Hoosier for sponsoring this bought. This is a bi annual round robin that ends the same every time.
If I may make some promotional suggestions, could we get some "card girls" posted at the end of rounds?

It is interesting in that it doesn't always follow expected fault lines.

 

[mcmurtry66]

My biggest issue with the argument against them is it is ignoring the underlying problem because it's harder to solve.

I've mentioned using excise taxes from firearms sales for mental health funding, there are other compromises. But noone wants to listen because they just want the guns.

Here is what a compromise would look like:
Semi auto rifles could be purchased through the NFA process. In exchange, the ATF gets more funding for processing applications. Right now there is about a 9 month approval time. Once approved you can make additional purchases of semi auto rifles without applying for an additional stamp. Other NFA items would still need an individual application.

You get a more thorough screening, a de facto wait time, and a financial hurdle.

i get that but sometimes you fix what you can. like mediation you start with the easiest and build momentum for the more difficult

 

[IUCrazy2]

I agree with this. No guns should be exempt from tort liability.

Yeah, we know. 😉

 

[mcmurtry66]

While we all are in this cage match, I want to thank @CO. Hoosier for sponsoring this bought. This is a bi annual round robin that ends the same every time.
If I may make some promotional suggestions, could we get some "card girls" posted at the end of rounds?

this has been a good thread and discussion. #dreamteam #alwayswinning

 

[Cthulhu85]

i get that but sometimes you fix what you can. like mediation you start with the easiest and build momentum for the more difficult

So the slippery slope essentially?

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

And I don't even own an AR so this isn't even necessarily personal to me. I just think that they serve a purpose and if saving the kids was really the aim, handguns would be the first type of firearm looked at.

I'm hearing you sir, but the tool isn't the first thing to look at to fix the problem.
You can't borrow money to get out of debit.
You can't disarm the protectors to stop violence.

I know, it is supper easy to look and say.. just remove guns. But nothing EASY has ever been life changing in a good way.

 

[bawlmer]

With term limits. I am 100% certain that we have enough evidence that the legacy swamp people dig a hole in DC, gather alphabet agency support and then become NOTHING like a democratically ran, of the people for the people by the people, gov. Peolosi, Briben et al are more like Putin and Pyrogzhin going at it and we are the ones that get pissed on.

Marjorie Taylor Green approves this post.

 

[Hoopsdoc1978]

Look up the sandy hook case. Ads are part of it hoops

That’s actually a perfect example of what I’m talking about. Those people were allowed to sue Remington for their advertising when there’s no evidence that Adam Lanza ever saw one, and, at any rate, he didn’t buy the gun he used, he stole it.

Remingtons advertising had literally nothing to do with Adam Lanza committing that shooting, yet they were sued into bankruptcy anyway.

That’s what COH envisions for all of them.

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

this has been a good thread and discussion. #dreamteam #alwayswinning

You're in the IC, Card girls??? C'mon coach.

 

[larsIU]

Then why do they want them? To "save" 25 people/year? C'mon.

See Mcm's answers on this. Kids shouldn't be doing active shooter drills and nearly ALL of those shootings are AR style ripoffs. THEY SERVE ABSOLUTELY NO SOCIAL PURPOSE OTHER THAN SOME SMALL JOY FROM PINGING CANS OR COYOTES. Both of which can be done with a "normal", "boring" rifle. Do you really believe these things aren't marketed to hell and back? Do you really believe the ****ing scene in John Wick 2 when the gun "store" vignette guy literally named off the made/model and destructive power of each product placed gun while Keanu Reeves did cool shit with them?

The guns are insurance, nothing more or less.

Against WHAT?

You’ve belied your intentions with the lawyers comment because if immunity laws are repealed, they’re not stopping at AR’s. I can assure you of that.

Well, the gun manufacturers will solve the problem. I guarantee it. I almost think they'll sell direct to consumers and institute background checks that wouldn't get out of a house committee right now.

So pass a law limiting the mag size, if that's such a big issue.

See we're getting somewhere now.

 

[Univee2]

Seems technology is here (or will soon be here) to implement the use of smart gun technology. A smart gun could only be fired if the registered owner is using it. This could be via handprint tech on the handle... similar to what is used for unlocking your phone. Or a small wearable device (ring/necklace) .

A gun not being operated by the lawful owner would be as useless as a toy pistol. Would eliminate the thousands of children that are accidentally shot, as well as kill the black market for guns.

This is a safety measure that the legal system could force better adoption of, just as car makers are liable for not implementing safety equipment.

Would diehard 2A people get behind this?

Yes, but there would then have to be a way to transfer legal ownership so that the gun would respond to the new owner. I don’t know how this could be accomplished unless the gun could be transferred at a properly equipped police facility.

 

[Cthulhu85]

It actually kind of pisses me off how popular ARs have become. It used to be a niche thing for serious shooters and guys who like to tinker. Now every assclown that's played Battlefield or Call of Duty wants one.

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

Marjorie Taylor Green approves this post.

WHOA, pullin out the Smoke Show card. I'd drink her bath water.

 

[mcmurtry66]

So the slippery slope essentially?

The opposite

 

[larsIU]

this has been a good thread and discussion. #dreamteam #alwayswinning

Real team of rivals or something.

 

[Cthulhu85]

See Mcm's answers on this. Kids shouldn't be doing active shooter drills and nearly ALL of those shootings are AR style ripoffs. THEY SERVE ABSOLUTELY NO SOCIAL PURPOSE OTHER THAN SOME SMALL JOY FROM PINGING CANS OR COYOTES. Both of which can be done with a "normal", "boring" rifle. Do you really believe these things aren't marketed to hell and back? Do you really believe the ****ing scene in John Wick 2 when the gun "store" vignette guy literally named off the made/model and destructive power of each product placed gun while Keanu Reeves did cool shit with them?


Against WHAT?


Well, the gun manufacturers will solve the problem. I guarantee it. I almost think they'll sell direct to consumers and institute background checks that wouldn't get out of a house committee right now.


See we're getting somewhere now.

They did nuke drills during the cold War. It will always be some boogeyman out there.

 

[Cthulhu85]

See Mcm's answers on this. Kids shouldn't be doing active shooter drills and nearly ALL of those shootings are AR style ripoffs. THEY SERVE ABSOLUTELY NO SOCIAL PURPOSE OTHER THAN SOME SMALL JOY FROM PINGING CANS OR COYOTES. Both of which can be done with a "normal", "boring" rifle. Do you really believe these things aren't marketed to hell and back? Do you really believe the ****ing scene in John Wick 2 when the gun "store" vignette guy literally named off the made/model and destructive power of each product placed gun while Keanu Reeves did cool shit with them?


Against WHAT?


Well, the gun manufacturers will solve the problem. I guarantee it. I almost think they'll sell direct to consumers and institute background checks that wouldn't get out of a house committee right now.


See we're getting somewhere now.

First time I've ever heard guns and social purpose. Smh.

What about us anti social people who prefer to live on the edge of society?

 

[DANC]

sure. we list drugs and other things that are banned. so let me break this down @Ty Webb iu @DANC @Hoopsdoc1978 as you guys appear to be the group that supports assault weapons.

Everything in life involves a risk benefit analysis. when you look at assault weapons, the data, which i have, they really aren't that great of a risk. the number of deaths from same isn't much. however, perception matters, that an inordinate amount of the deaths have involved children, that now our kids have "active shooter" as part of their vernacular increases the risk significantly. now what benefit do we derive from assault weapons/high cap mags etc. personal enjoyment. and that's really all. fair? defense against the gov? stop it. the gov would squash in a second. they could kill you with a microwave or a drone. that's silly, paranoia talk. it's just personal enjoyment. fun looking at it fun shooting it.

gov implements measures all the time for our protection, to mitigate risk. seat belts, speed limits, fda regs, on and on and on. the benefits or social utility of cars and pharma are enormous, yet we regulate same. so why not regulate a product more stringently that serves very little social utility but provides so much risk?

I didn't say I support assault weapons. I said I'm against holding gun manufacturers liable for some idiot taking their product and committing mass murder. Or any murder, for that matter.

I'm not a gun nut. I can live with laws that keep criminals from having any guns. I can also live with responsible citizens proving they're responsible.

I do believe in the 2nd Amendment and believe Americans have a right to have a gun for self-protection both personally and against a tyranical government.

 

[mcmurtry66]

First time I've ever heard guns and social purpose. Smh.

What about us anti social people who prefer to live on the edge of society?

You’re a casualty. Sucks

 

[Spartans9312]

You’ve belied your intentions with the lawyers comment because if immunity laws are repealed, they’re not stopping at AR’s. I can assure you of that.

The aristocracy will be able to afford firearms….the peasants not so much.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Real team of rivals or something.

We’re the AR 15 of this board!!!

 

[Spartans9312]

So, we’re going to pretend we can’t count now? The difference is opioids kills 10,000s of more people per year. Not, mention to they overprescribed them.

Opioids are available to the poor….in fact the taxpayers foot the bill. I’m having a hard time seeing the correlation

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

They did nuke drills during the cold War. It will always be some boogeyman out there.

Boogeyman, that is all that this is. Every pacifist need a boogeyman, so they don't have to go address the real problem. The #1 go to is, lets ruin the security of the legitimate gun owner so the bad guys can still go on the black market (which they already do) to get their weapons.
The bad guy is voting DIM all day every day for the entire early voting days and stuffing 20 extra ballots in drop boxes. "Disarm those effing home owners, my cartel boss has raised my collection goals".
The US is being allowed/ forced to become North Mexico. The cartels are among us.

 

[Cthulhu85]

We just fought 2 insurgencies overseas over the past 20 years and you guys still think that jets and heavy artillery would be the way that would go? You dropping JDAMs in the middle of suburbia?

The guns are insurance, nothing more or less. Maybe not you but plenty of people on that side of the aisle were/are saying that democracy itself might be over if Trump were to get back in charge. How could that happen with government we can vote for and courts? Erdogan was voted into office. Hugo Chavez was voted into office. He took away guns to protect the people too. They never got another real election to oust him or his successor since.

"That can't happen here." Why? Why are we so special that interests couldn't seize the government? People are people. Do I think the government is going to go authoritarian in my lifetime? I don't think so, but there are things happening right now that people are accepting of that I would have told you was crazy town 10 to 15 years ago.

I don't think guns should be turned on this government. I think guns should have been turned on Chavez and Erdogan. I don't want to give up the option should it be needed even in the high likelihood it won't.

The British and Russians also tried to pacify Afghanistan. You won't beat a determined guerrilla insurgency.

The US military has about 1.4 million troops. A lot would simply go home. The vast majority are in support roles. In the hypothetical there will be no US military.

 

[Cthulhu85]

Opioids are available to the poor….in fact the taxpayers foot the bill. I’m having a hard time seeing the correlation

When the prescriptions run out they turn to heroin and other illegal substances. That is the real problem.

 

[Cthulhu85]

You’re a casualty. Sucks

Yes it does. Didn't ask to be born into it but have to live with it.

 

[Cthulhu85]

Boogeyman, that is all that this is. Every pacifist need a boogeyman, so they don't have to go address the real problem. The #1 go to is, lets ruin the security of the legitimate gun owner so the bad guys can still go on the black market (which they already do) to get their weapons.
The bad guy is voting DIM all day every day for the entire early voting days and stuffing 20 extra ballots in drop boxes. "Disarm those effing home owners, my cartel boss has raised my collection goals".
The US is being allowed/ forced to become North Mexico. The cartels are among us.

Get rid of guns and I will make bank in the black market. Especially with ammo.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I don't consider it an issue.

There is a lot of evidence, pictures, etc of what a high velocity round does to a human. Show that to the jury and explain how often an AR 15 is used in mass and school shootings. Then you can explain why that weapon in consumer stream of commerce is not an issue. Then the jury decides.

 

[mattndallas]

See Mcm's answers on this. Kids shouldn't be doing active shooter drills and nearly ALL of those shootings are AR style ripoffs. THEY SERVE ABSOLUTELY NO SOCIAL PURPOSE OTHER THAN SOME SMALL JOY FROM PINGING CANS OR COYOTES.

I guess we disagree on why Feds are more concerned with AR's than handguns.

I'm assuming you think Feds want to ban AR's because although they statistically don't, they COULD be used to kill more people/kids than handguns.

I'm assuming Feds want to ban AR's because although they statistically don't, they COULD be used to kill more Feds than handguns.

They don't care about 20-30 kids a year. Merely a heartstring.

 

[Hoopsdoc1978]

See Mcm's answers on this. Kids shouldn't be doing active shooter drills and nearly ALL of those shootings are AR style ripoffs. THEY SERVE ABSOLUTELY NO SOCIAL PURPOSE OTHER THAN SOME SMALL JOY FROM PINGING CANS OR COYOTES. Both of which can be done with a "normal", "boring" rifle. Do you really believe these things aren't marketed to hell and back? Do you really believe the ****ing scene in John Wick 2 when the gun "store" vignette guy literally named off the made/model and destructive power of each product placed gun while Keanu Reeves did cool shit with them?


Against WHAT?


Well, the gun manufacturers will solve the problem. I guarantee it. I almost think they'll sell direct to consumers and institute background checks that wouldn't get out of a house committee right now.


See we're getting somewhere now.

Yeah, see, saying “well I’m sure they’ll figure it out” isn’t good enough for me when the end result I laid out seems much more likely and is the ultimate goal of guys like COH anyway.

Again, it’s about getting guns off the streets. That’s it.

 

[DANC]

If we haven't voted out the fascists by the time they have seized power, we'll have nobody to blame but ourselves. And the government unilaterally decides nothing. We have elections. Not that we pay much attention.

It is very clear what was intended by the 2nd amendment AT THE TIME IT WAS WRITTEN as the men writing could likely be strung up and hung. So yeah, i'd probably want a gun by the door then too. Just in case. I mean the British CAME BACK for round two less than 40 years later. At that time in our history it made sense to own a gun to prevent a hostile government of depriving you of your rights. BECAUSE IT HAD JUST HAPPENED. The South had a shit ton of gun in 1860 and got curb stomped by the Union. The South literally seceded from the Union and it took that action for the government to do anything. Sure the Feds today are much stronger but come on. There is no civil war coming.

But is your reason for ownership a fear the government coming to attack your town or a defense against crime?

Those are the only two "social utilities" I can think of for owning a gun. Protection from the government and crime. Home invasions are probably best dealt with by a shotgun. Those are legal and will be forever.

There is no protection against the United State federal government if it ever reaches a point where it turns on its citizens. The Rubicon would be 1000 miles behind up by that point. And nobody's AR is going to do shit against the US military.

Hmmm...... 300+ million people with guns vs maybe 3 million with military assets?

Who are they going to bomb? Who are they going to take out with a tank? You think the military can hold a city when the population is armed and willing to use small arms?

Did you learn nothing from Vietnam?

 

[Spartans9312]

When the prescriptions run out they turn to heroin and other illegal substances. That is the real problem.

Same thing will happen with firearms

 

[Hoopsdoc1978]

Hmmm...... 300+ million people with guns vs maybe 3 million with military assets?

Who are they going to bomb? Who are they going to take out with a tank? You think the military can hold a city when the population is armed and willing to use small arms?

Did you learn nothing from Vietnam?

Yeah, they’d never succeed for about a million reasons, not the least of which is they’re not going to completely destroy the country to accomplish it.

 

[mcmurtry66]

@larsIU i think when you get Danc’s and others gov intrusion argument it’s a good time to end the mediation. No point staying

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

WHOA, pullin out the Smoke Show card. I'd drink her bath water.

You assume too much.