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Are there any real solutions to Baltimore?

toastedbread

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Oct 25, 2006
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Or for that matter the plight of impoverished black Americans? From where I stand no matter how many head start programs are created, if there is minimal parental involvement it won't make a lick of difference. Too many black children are born to parents out of wedlock or parents with problems. How do we begin to address this so that programs such as headstart can be effective?

I'm afraid there are no solutions that tackle this underlying problem. Throwing all of the money in the world at Baltimore doesn't address this.
 
With a black mayor, black police chief, black majority city council, why aren't they furious over Freddie Gray's death? If there is targeting of blacks by the 41% of the force that is white, why aren't the black officers outraged? Why aren't they turning in white offenders if it is about race? Black officers would be the first to know if racist cops are the issue. If Baltimore can't fix the issue, who can?

I find it troubling that 90% of all homicides in Baltimore are black. A similar number of blacks are convicted of all the homicides in Baltimore. If I were a civil right leader, black on black crime would be my focus.

Money and programs mean nothing if it is easier, more profitable, or the only way to make money by selling drugs and robbing others. It has to be hard for a parent to keep their kid from hanging out with drug dealers and gangs and following their path when they see how successful being a drug dealer is.

Legalizing drugs or decriminalization of drugs is another subject too long to discuss. As long as there is one illegal drug, drug dealers will exist. No, the answer is not to legalize all drugs.
 
Yes, there are real solutions to Baltimore - and the other cities equally as ruined by liberal policies. However, there are none that could be enacted by local government or enforced upon Baltimore that would do any good now that the damage has been done by decades of Democrat rule. They'll talk. They'll spend someone else's money, but no progress will come from then. Its ok with Dems, though - see the LBJ quote- as long as they vote Democrat and they reliably do so.
 
Yes, there are real solutions to Baltimore - and the other cities equally as ruined by liberal policies. However, there are none that could be enacted by local government or enforced upon Baltimore that would do any good now that the damage has been done by decades of Democrat rule. They'll talk. They'll spend someone else's money, but no progress will come from then. Its ok with Dems, though - see the LBJ quote- as long as they vote Democrat and they reliably do so.
Straight from Limbaugh's lips to your fingertips. I read that part where you said "blah blah blah liberal blah blah blah liberal". Tell me about all those conservative plans that have been implemented in these areas. Where are they supposed to get jobs? Have you seen these areas? Check Cashing places, Payday Loan places, Liquor stores, and Dollar Stores. Is there anything you don't blame on liberals? You are so far up Limbaugh's ass I probably wouldn't be able to tell where you ended and he began.

Shorter Ladoga: "it's the liberals"
 
Straight from Limbaugh's lips to your fingertips. I read that part where you said "blah blah blah liberal blah blah blah liberal". Tell me about all those conservative plans that have been implemented in these areas. Where are they supposed to get jobs? Have you seen these areas? Check Cashing places, Payday Loan places, Liquor stores, and Dollar Stores. Is there anything you don't blame on liberals? You are so far up Limbaugh's ass I probably wouldn't be able to tell where you ended and he began.

Shorter Ladoga: "it's the liberals"

I don't know if liberalism is the cause of all this. But it does seem evident enough that it hasn't been a remedy.
 
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Straight from Limbaugh's lips to your fingertips. I read that part where you said "blah blah blah liberal blah blah blah liberal". Tell me about all those conservative plans that have been implemented in these areas. Where are they supposed to get jobs? Have you seen these areas? Check Cashing places, Payday Loan places, Liquor stores, and Dollar Stores. Is there anything you don't blame on liberals? You are so far up Limbaugh's ass I probably wouldn't be able to tell where you ended and he began.

Shorter Ladoga: "it's the liberals"
Conservative plans are not implemented in those places because their governing bodies are reliably Democrat liberals. HAs Limbaugh talked about that? You must be a Limbaugh afficianado to know so much about what he says. I missed that I guess, but as a Limbaugh expert, you might have heard that. The highest crimes rate cities are Democrat controlled. The highest poverty cities are Democrat Pick any measure of measuring living conditions. The worst are Democratically controlled. Why? Because liberalism has been a complete and total failure everywhere it has controlled. Its a failure. Admit it and give it up. You're harming your fellow citizens.
 
In reading the thread, the only solutions being offered are to end programs such as Head Start and somehow get Republicans elected to run cities now under the control of Democrats.

Admittedly, I don't have any easy solutions, but the solutions proposed in this thread just don't seem either likely or plausible.
 
Or for that matter the plight of impoverished black Americans? From where I stand no matter how many head start programs are created, if there is minimal parental involvement it won't make a lick of difference. Too many black children are born to parents out of wedlock or parents with problems. How do we begin to address this so that programs such as headstart can be effective?

I'm afraid there are no solutions that tackle this underlying problem. Throwing all of the money in the world at Baltimore doesn't address this.
Yep, some think that throwing money at a problem will fix any problem but that's just not true as you point out.
 
In reading the thread, the only solutions being offered are to end programs such as Head Start and somehow get Republicans elected to run cities now under the control of Democrats.

Admittedly, I don't have any easy solutions, but the solutions proposed in this thread just don't seem either likely or plausible.

I remember seeing a symposium once that featured a series of ideologically diverse social scientists. One of them was Charles Murray, the notorious (to some) libertarian political scientist. He was in the middle of answering a question regarding some social ill, and he stopped himself and interjected "Well, I'm a libertarian...so I don't do solutions." Needless to say, the comment elicited no small amount of laughter. To his critics, I'm sure this comment would be affirmation that Murray and people like him either don't care about social problems or admit that their worldview precludes them from seeing or endorsing plans or programs to alleviate them.

To his fans (like me), it was a statement of humility and recognition of the limitations of social engineering.

There is no "solution", in the public policy sense of the word, to the chronic poverty or near poverty that pretty much everybody agrees lies at the heart of this civil unrest -- and that which has come before it elsewhere. It's not an accident that we never see the comfortable residents of suburbia ravaging their local CVS stores.

It wasn't long ago that we marked the 50th anniversary of the War on Poverty. Well, at what point in time do we recognize that poverty won? Many people still say it was a success -- and then turn around in the next breath to point out how poverty and despair in the inner cities feeds this pent-up anger. In other words, it's been a partial success -- but there's clearly much more yet to do. So we need to expand the welfare state. And then we'll no longer see this stuff.

Yeah, pull the other one.

Now, do I think that public policy (regarding, for instance, education) will always have a profound impact on social welfare? Of course. This is not to suggest that public policy is irrelevant. It's only to point out that it's never been a panacea, and never will.

I often liken this to another social epidemic we have: obesity. Similarly, there is no public policy solution to that problem either. But that doesn't mean that any individual who struggles with their weight can't significantly improve their situation. It just means that they have to be the ones who do it...others can't do it for them. Others can certainly help -- but that's not the same as them alleviating your problem for you.

Until we recognize that the only real solution lies within, we'll continue to spin our wheels.
 
In reading the thread, the only solutions being offered are to end programs such as Head Start and somehow get Republicans elected to run cities now under the control of Democrats.

Admittedly, I don't have any easy solutions, but the solutions proposed in this thread just don't seem either likely or plausible.

If it's all Democrats' fault, why do blacks vote heavily Democratic?

The answer is that as bad as things may be, things are a helluva lot better than what they would be if the conservatives here were able to implement their preferred policies . . . and the voters in those cities know it for a fact.
 
Or for that matter the plight of impoverished black Americans? From where I stand no matter how many head start programs are created, if there is minimal parental involvement it won't make a lick of difference. Too many black children are born to parents out of wedlock or parents with problems. How do we begin to address this so that programs such as headstart can be effective?

I'm afraid there are no solutions that tackle this underlying problem. Throwing all of the money in the world at Baltimore doesn't address this.

Jobs.
 
Straight from Limbaugh's lips to your fingertips. I read that part where you said "blah blah blah liberal blah blah blah liberal". Tell me about all those conservative plans that have been implemented in these areas. Where are they supposed to get jobs? Have you seen these areas? Check Cashing places, Payday Loan places, Liquor stores, and Dollar Stores. Is there anything you don't blame on liberals? You are so far up Limbaugh's ass I probably wouldn't be able to tell where you ended and he began.

Shorter Ladoga: "it's the liberals"

The only thing you ever say anymore is "Limbaugh told you that" or "Fox News told you that."

You need to turn the page.
 
There are some real solutions to problems like Baltimore. But I don't think this is a comprehensive plan, and I think it requires patience.

1. Shift in drug policy. This does not mean legalization. But it does mean a shift from punishment to treatment for users and addicts. Having a drug addict sitting in prison does nothing but earn money for private prison corporations. Having a drug addict go through treatment and become a functioning member of society helps everything. Note that this also helps the single-mother problem we all love talking about.

2. Guns. Banning certain ammunition or certain models is just a waste of time. Hell, banning all guns would be a waste of time. Two things I can think of would help. First, we need to crack down on the illegal gun trade. I like something COH has suggested, that we need to remove statutory protections for gun manufacturers. They should be open for lawsuit just like anyone else. Now, I'm not saying we should have strict liability. But if someone actually can prove negligence on the part of a manufacturer, distributor or seller, they should have the chance to do so. Also, sorry, but we're going to have to crack down on gun shows. They are a major vector for untraceable sales. Second, there are some ways of getting guns off the streets. Anonymous gun buybacks by police is one. Sure, it won't get every gun, but just reducing the number of illegal firearms in circulation is a good thing.

3. Education. I'm not talking about simply dumping more money into school districts. I'm talking about where the money goes. Kids who have access to music and arts at a young age are going to develop more successfully than kids who don't.

4. Major social campaigns. I don't care if it's churches or publicly-owned community centers. We need to 1) cut down on the number of parents who play no role in the raising of their own children and 2) offer community support for those parents who are nevertheless forced to go it alone. It might not always "take a village," but a village can be a huge help.

5. Let's go ahead and throw marriage equality in there. Gay couples raise kids, too. Let's strengthen their family unit.

6. Moral education. Maybe it's just that this guy was attacked by Slate, and I instinctively defend anyone who is attacked by Slate, which is one of my least favorite liberal-leaning media outlets of all time, but I think Justin McBrayer is on to something when we suggests that we (purposefully or not) teach our children that there are no moral facts, and that this is a bad development. He's off-base on some stuff (like his cliche and unsupportable attack on Common Core), but I think the foundation of his argument is solid. This is another place where the village matters. Parents aren't the only ones who teach morals. Teachers spend more time with children than anyone outside of parents, and if we're not letting teachers actually teach morals, then we're missing a huge opportunity.

7. Economic development. Jobs solve a lot of problems. Some people fall into crime simply because they need an opportunity for economic mobility or support, and that's all that's available to them.
 
Those aren't bad and there should be agreement.

A couple of observations.

I don't think there are as many addicts and users in prison as appears. In many of those cases, the inmates were caught with sufficient quantities of drugs to justify charges of dealing. Through plea bargains, the charges are reduced to using--thus skewing the statistics. I think you would agree we need to get the dealers off of the street.

One of the reasons for free public education is to build a common culture and build allegience to that culture and country. That has gone way off the rails. A generation or so ago we thought that cultural diveristy was so good that we shouldn't encourage allegience to an American "culture". I don't think there is anything wrong with believing this is the best place in the world to live and that people should be proud of that. One example of what I am talking about. Many Southern states went through a period of objections to the confederate battle flag being incorporated into their state flags. The objection centered on the idea that the stars and bars was a symbol of oppression and slavery. Okay. I get that argument. But the stars and stripes was never seen in that light. The American Flag is on promenent display in the Selma march and other marches and demonstrations of the 60's. Now many see the American Flag as a symbol of oppression and abuse. What has changed? I think it is public education. I listened to a fairly articulate young black man interviewed Monday in Baltimore. He was asked why he was protesting. He said because the black people are "oppressed". That is nuts. They are not oppressed. You want oppression, study ISIS and other places where people go to jail for not wearing the proper clothes or praying to the wrong God. I am sure he believes that, but I don't think he feels it. I think he was taught it.

Same sex marriage? meh. I don't think that has anything to do with this. I don't see a gay rights issue in Baltimore, or Ferguson.
 
Same sex marriage? meh. I don't think that has anything to do with this. I don't see a gay rights issue in Baltimore, or Ferguson.
I threw that in there, because I think anything that legitimizes and destigmatizes same-sex relationships and strengthens them as a family unit can only help make the family unit in America stronger generally.
 
If it's all Democrats' fault, why do blacks vote heavily Democratic?

The answer is that as bad as things may be, things are a helluva lot better than what they would be if the conservatives here were able to implement their preferred policies . . . and the voters in those cities know it for a fact.

Perhaps they don't know any better. Democratic politicians buy the votes of ministers & black community leaders and then these ministers and leaders convince inner city blacks to vote for said candidate. At least that is how it works in Baltimore and some other big cities, such as Chicago.
 
If it's all Democrats' fault, why do blacks vote heavily Democratic?

The answer is that as bad as things may be, things are a helluva lot better than what they would be if the conservatives here were able to implement their preferred policies . . . and the voters in those cities know it for a fact.

well sope

What conservative polices are so bad that they know as a "fact" they is bad for the blacks?

Here is what I posted about your argument elsewhere.
 
Or for that matter the plight of impoverished black Americans? From where I stand no matter how many head start programs are created, if there is minimal parental involvement it won't make a lick of difference. Too many black children are born to parents out of wedlock or parents with problems. How do we begin to address this so that programs such as headstart can be effective?

I'm afraid there are no solutions that tackle this underlying problem. Throwing all of the money in the world at Baltimore doesn't address this.
This may sound overly simplistic, but I honestly think that our educational system is failing our inner city youth. I work in a pretty well off, suburban community school system, as does my wife now. However, her first 9 years in the classroom were spent in the Indianapolis Public Schools. When she was hired here, she almost felt guilty at all the tools/resources available to our students.
The poor will continue to get poorer in our country until we decide that all kids matter and all kids should have equality when it comes to educational resources.
 
3sportcoach,

A few years ago when Eugene White was Superintendent of the Indianapolis Public Schools he gave a lecture to our group. According to White by the time a student reaches 5th grade it can be determined to a high degree of probability whether that student will succeed. White's solution was to place those already hopelessly behind at about the 5th grade into a special school environment designed to bring them up to speed.

White didn't give specifics as to what this special school environment might be. In thinking about this, a radical approach might be to remove these students from their home environment and isolate them into a campus setting complete with dormitories. The campus would have many of the same attributes as a military school. Once the student reached a certain level of proficiency he could then return to his home environment.

Now I say all this while knowing it will never happen. Nevertheless, in my view, unless something as radical as this comes into play, little change will occur.
 
3sportcoach,

A few years ago when Eugene White was Superintendent of the Indianapolis Public Schools he gave a lecture to our group. According to White by the time a student reaches 5th grade it can be determined to a high degree of probability whether that student will succeed. White's solution was to place those already hopelessly behind at about the 5th grade into a special school environment designed to bring them up to speed.

White didn't give specifics as to what this special school environment might be. In thinking about this, a radical approach might be to remove these students from their home environment and isolate them into a campus setting complete with dormitories. The campus would have many of the same attributes as a military school. Once the student reached a certain level of proficiency he could then return to his home environment.

Now I say all this while knowing it will never happen. Nevertheless, in my view, unless something as radical as this comes into play, little change will occur.
That is what drives me crazy about the world I work in (public education). My thought would be, let's work as hard as possible to give kids resources in those primary grades, so we don't WAIT until 5th grade to evaluate the potential quality of a human beings future. Dr. White and every other person can say whatever they want, but the reality is until we as a society decide that education (or lack of) is the answer to many of the issues facing our country today, things will never change.
 
This may sound overly simplistic, but I honestly think that our educational system is failing our inner city youth. I work in a pretty well off, suburban community school system, as does my wife now. However, her first 9 years in the classroom were spent in the Indianapolis Public Schools. When she was hired here, she almost felt guilty at all the tools/resources available to our students.
The poor will continue to get poorer in our country until we decide that all kids matter and all kids should have equality when it comes to educational resources.

So let me ask you this, what is driving the lack of resources/tools given that many inner cities spend more per student than suburban schools? Is part of the issue higher teacher pay? I know that our neighbor, who worked for CPS for a long time, was paid a premium compared to his suburban peers, mostly for having to endure difficult students and more dangerous situations.

Or, is it a function of excess administrative costs and inefficiencies? My logic here stems from the fact that most suburban schools (per other posts ITT) appear to be funded mostly via local property taxes. Whereas, inner-city schools rely mostly on state spending and tend to have larger bureaucracies.

Interested to hear your thoughts.
 
So let me ask you this, what is driving the lack of resources/tools given that many inner cities spend more per student than suburban schools? Is part of the issue higher teacher pay? I know that our neighbor, who worked for CPS for a long time, was paid a premium compared to his suburban peers, mostly for having to endure difficult students and more dangerous situations.

Or, is it a function of excess administrative costs and inefficiencies? My logic here stems from the fact that most suburban schools (per other posts ITT) appear to be funded mostly via local property taxes. Whereas, inner-city schools rely mostly on state spending and tend to have larger bureaucracies.

Interested to hear your thoughts.
I can only speak for IPS teachers, they are paid no more than the surrounding township/suburban teachers, in fact less in many cases. School funding certainly isn't an area in which I feel that I have a strong knowledge base, especially since 2008 when the funding formulas changed in the State of Indiana. In my opinion, yes, IPS has always had an excess of administrators, all making higher than average salaries (compared to other school districts.) However, I am not sure that is what is causing the disparity in facilities and learning tools.
I wish I had the solution to the problem, however all I can do for now is challenge anyone to walk the hallways of an inner city school, do the same at a suburban school, and I think they would be shocked at just how poorly we are preparing those kids for life (inner city kids).
 
I In my opinion, yes, IPS has always had an excess of administrators, all making higher than average salaries (compared to other school districts.) However, I am not sure that is what is causing the disparity in facilities and learning tools.
I'd like IPS and the surrounding townships to be a single entity thus making Marion County a single educational system. This would scale down the cost of administrators dramatically. This would also help complete the process of Uni-Gov which started about 50 years under Republican Mayor Richard Lugar but was never completed by either Republican or Democratic mayors.
 
3sportcoach,

. . . White's solution was to place those already hopelessly behind at about the 5th grade into a special school environment designed to bring them up to speed . . .Once the student reached a certain level of proficiency he could then return to his home environment.

A local private tutoring program is having a good deal of success with something like this approach. They first test kids to determine what level they're on, then use after school hours - and lots of parents' money - to build the skill sets that are lacking. My wife - an 8th grade math teacher in a Title I school - and I have discussed that program at length and believe it is exactly the kind of program that can be an efficient use of funds with extraordinary results, if applied systematically. And while it might suggest that a kid go to a special school - such as a kid whose primary language isn't English and whose education has been intermittent or transient - it doesn't necessarily require that. A lot of kids' issues result from a single problem; for example, poor critical thinking/critical reading skills can underlie problems in English, social studies and even math (with word problems). Work on that problem while at the school they're in and their performance can improve without radical changes.

BTW, one of the most popular services the tutoring program provides is SAT-readiness . . . their students can have hundreds of points increases in their total SAT scores.

This is where Common Core creates more problems that it solves, IMO. Having a 12 year old kid who reads at a 3rd grade level sit in classes that presume a minimum 6th grade level of reading is defeating to the kid, unfair to the rest of the kids, unfair to the teacher whose career development is dependent upon performance of a kid who was hopelessly behind when the kid started the class, and hugely cost-ineffective. Focus on the kid's real problem and you can solve all that . . . one kid at a time, instead of in lock-step fashion.
 
I wish I had the solution to the problem, however all I can do for now is challenge anyone to walk the hallways of an inner city school, do the same at a suburban school, and I think they would be shocked at just how poorly we are preparing those kids for life (inner city kids).

Nobody is denying there is a problem. What some of us are suggesting is that increased spending, resources and tools are meaningless without a willingness to learn. Lack of parental involvement and control is a key ingredient that needs to be changed.
 
Nobody is denying there is a problem. What some of us are suggesting is that increased spending, resources and tools are meaningless without a willingness to learn. Lack of parental involvement and control is a key ingredient that needs to be changed.
I do not disagree with that at all...I am not suggesting increasing spending blindly for education, but making sure that when we spend, all kids are give equal opportunity. Of course lack of parental involvement is THE key, however, we can't just sit back and use that to excuse why there is such a disparity in our educational system between the have's and the have not's.
 
A local private tutoring program is having a good deal of success with something like this approach. They first test kids to determine what level they're on, then use after school hours - and lots of parents' money - to build the skill sets that are lacking. My wife - an 8th grade math teacher in a Title I school - and I have discussed that program at length and believe it is exactly the kind of program that can be an efficient use of funds with extraordinary results, if applied systematically. And while it might suggest that a kid go to a special school - such as a kid whose primary language isn't English and whose education has been intermittent or transient - it doesn't necessarily require that. A lot of kids' issues result from a single problem; for example, poor critical thinking/critical reading skills can underlie problems in English, social studies and even math (with word problems). Work on that problem while at the school they're in and their performance can improve without radical changes.

BTW, one of the most popular services the tutoring program provides is SAT-readiness . . . their students can have hundreds of points increases in their total SAT scores.

This is where Common Core creates more problems that it solves, IMO. Having a 12 year old kid who reads at a 3rd grade level sit in classes that presume a minimum 6th grade level of reading is defeating to the kid, unfair to the rest of the kids, unfair to the teacher whose career development is dependent upon performance of a kid who was hopelessly behind when the kid started the class, and hugely cost-ineffective. Focus on the kid's real problem and you can solve all that . . . one kid at a time, instead of in lock-step fashion.

I believe you are on the right track. Extracurricular reading programs are crucial. But again, the kids that will be "saved" are those whose parents are at least somewhat involved. How do we save the kids whose parents are absent ... either literally absent or mentally gone?

And I don't think decriminalizing drugs is going to fix this problem. Just because some of these parents are no longer locked up does not mean they will be doping less or helping their kids more. I recently drove through the "Tenderloin" in San Francisco and it's the same environment. You see the open distribution of drugs, brawls, just chaos.
 
I do not disagree with that at all...I am not suggesting increasing spending blindly for education, but making sure that when we spend, all kids are give equal opportunity. Of course lack of parental involvement is THE key, however, we can't just sit back and use that to excuse why there is such a disparity in our educational system between the have's and the have not's.

How do you educate kids who come home to a house without a meal? The kind of oversight needed to fix this is untenable. I'm afraid there is no solution to address the underlying issue.
 
Involved Parents or Parent

Former Indianapolis Public School (IPS) Superintendent Eugene White to whom I referred earlier in this thread suggested that parents or the parent probably needed to learn right alongside the student facing learning problems. So instead of helping their children with their homework, they needed to learn the homework themselves.

Let us face it, students facing learning deficiencies are many times the product of parents who themselves were poorly educated.
 
I think what is missing is hope. People believe they are trapped and as a result they don't try. Or they turn to the only ways they know of, gangs for income and drugs/alcohol to numb the pain. Often both. I don't know how to give them hope.

NPR had a story last week I thought was interesting. Kids were asked by various means if they wanted to sign up for a free SAT prep class. I believe all the students were honor students. The students that answered back in private were used as the baseline. I don't remember the numbers, but something like 70% did. Some were asked in their honors classes to publicly commit, the number jumped up to over 90%. Some were asked in "normal" classes, the numbers plummeted to like 40%. The numbers are probably somewhat off, but the idea is accurate. Peer pressure is real in school. If one is around a lot of kids who are expected to do well, kids who will sign up for extra help, there is pressure to do so. If they are around kids who do not value education, they will not.

Since most schools are neighborhood schools, if the school is in a real poverty area where education isn't stressed, even students who might otherwise be very capable are often dragged down. I am sure, aside from the pressure to just hang out with the other kids, they hear the question as to why they bother since no one ever gets out.

I don't have a good solution to any of this. But there needs to be a way to instill the hope that education and effort will lead people out of the ghetto. Once the kids believe that and the peer pressure builds to do well, we can replace the negative feedback loop with a positive feedback loop.
 
Another sad story out of Baltimore. A 61 y.o. white man tries to break up a fight between girls that was apparently happening on or near his car and gets beaten by nearly 50 teenagers. Makes you wonder if it was a hate crime. But, I'm sure the DOJ won't bother investigating this one, given the victim's race.

http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2015/05/08/dundalk-man-violently-beaten-by-group-of-teens/

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-county/dundalk/bs-md-co-dundalk-assault-arrests-20150512-story.html
 
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