Two Truths

[IUNorth]

1. Woody has improved the IU program immensely since he arrived as the head coach.
2. He's vastly underachieved with the talent he inherited.

Personal anecdote...comparing my experiences with the challenges Woody and IU face, at the high major level, in todays world, obviously isn't a perfect example. But there are core elements that I think fit. So here goes...

From my middle school years through the end of my junior year basketball season, my high school had the same basketball coach. He had some success, won our schools first sectional title in many, many years (my 8th grade year I believe). He was, very much, and offensive minded coach. Which worked out very well for me, as I was a gunner. We had very talented teams my sophomore and junior years, but just couldn't seem to put anything consistently good together. We beat some good teams, but couldn't string wins together. Again, I LOVED playing for that coach, I was having a lot of personal success. My junior year, we finished 8-13, and lost in the first round of sectionals to a team we should have beaten by 20. That night, after the game, our coach told us he was leaving. I actually cried, hard, when he told us.

A month or so later, our new coach was hired. He held a "program meeting" with all players, parents, friends...anyone that wanted to be apart of his program. He told everyone in the meeting that anyone that chooses to play in his program would do the following things. Play Hard. Defend. Be a good teammate. And he proceeded to say that he would teach us how to do all those things. But that they were expectations, not goals. And playing time, status on the team, etc... would be effected by our willingness and ability to do those things. No matter how talented we were. In our individual meetings afterwards, he joked with me about "not making it hard for him to enforce the rules." He said he needed me to play a big role, he needed my offense, but that he wouldn't play me if I didn't take those 3 things seriously. (Up until then, I hadn't taken those things seriously at all).

Anyway...the very next day, he started in with entrenching those things in to our team. They were present in every workout, every weight lifting session, every practice, and every game. I remember getting kicked out of an early practice for throwing a ball too hard at a teammate because I was mad they didn't make a play. I remember many moments early on where I had to take off the "black starter jersey" because I wasn't playing hard enough or wasn't defending...embarrassing for the top returning scorer, only returning all conference kid, etc...

With the exact same starting lineup as the year before...we went 21-4. At one point late in the season we were ranked in the top 15 in the state. We beat a top 5 team in the morning game of regionals, before losing in the final.

My point from the long story...I think the narrative that Woody "did what he could with what he had" is both true, and also not true, at the same time. I think Woody did an excellent job retaining the right players, getting transfer portal guys that would stabilize and help the program, and landing really good HS kids. Those efforts absolutely improved our program. We're unquestionably better today than we were when Archie was fired.

But he hasn't established any sort of good, quality, repeatable basketball principles for his program. They would have been more consistent for him, if he had demanded it of them. They would have defended, made better decisions with the ball, etc... if he had taught those things, and then demanded that they were done. If a HS coach can do it, with a group of talented kids that LOVED playing a certain style that was night and day different than his. Woody could have done it with much better, and more talented and versatile players. Effort, intensity, and focus shouldn't be something up for debate. At least it usually isn't for successful programs. So while I'm excited to see what Woody does this offseason. I'm more than a little wary of how his teams have played. And I'm skeptical a new cast of characters will change the narrative all that much.

 

[GeddyHoosier]

I still think there's a chance Woody retires this off season. He's 65 and should have a nice nest egg. Does he have the energy to start over post TJD?

 

[bailey777]

1. Woody has improved the IU program immensely since he arrived as the head coach.
2. He's vastly underachieved with the talent he inherited.

Personal anecdote...comparing my experiences with the challenges Woody and IU face, at the high major level, in todays world, obviously isn't a perfect example. But there are core elements that I think fit. So here goes...

From my middle school years through the end of my junior year basketball season, my high school had the same basketball coach. He had some success, won our schools first sectional title in many, many years (my 8th grade year I believe). He was, very much, and offensive minded coach. Which worked out very well for me, as I was a gunner. We had very talented teams my sophomore and junior years, but just couldn't seem to put anything consistently good together. We beat some good teams, but couldn't string wins together. Again, I LOVED playing for that coach, I was having a lot of personal success. My junior year, we finished 8-13, and lost in the first round of sectionals to a team we should have beaten by 20. That night, after the game, our coach told us he was leaving. I actually cried, hard, when he told us.

A month or so later, our new coach was hired. He held a "program meeting" with all players, parents, friends...anyone that wanted to be apart of his program. He told everyone in the meeting that anyone that chooses to play in his program would do the following things. Play Hard. Defend. Be a good teammate. And he proceeded to say that he would teach us how to do all those things. But that they were expectations, not goals. And playing time, status on the team, etc... would be effected by our willingness and ability to do those things. No matter how talented we were. In our individual meetings afterwards, he joked with me about "not making it hard for him to enforce the rules." He said he needed me to play a big role, he needed my offense, but that he wouldn't play me if I didn't take those 3 things seriously. (Up until then, I hadn't taken those things seriously at all).

Anyway...the very next day, he started in with entrenching those things in to our team. They were present in every workout, every weight lifting session, every practice, and every game. I remember getting kicked out of an early practice for throwing a ball too hard at a teammate because I was mad they didn't make a play. I remember many moments early on where I had to take off the "black starter jersey" because I wasn't playing hard enough or wasn't defending...embarrassing for the top returning scorer, only returning all conference kid, etc...

With the exact same starting lineup as the year before...we went 21-4. At one point late in the season we were ranked in the top 15 in the state. We beat a top 5 team in the morning game of regionals, before losing in the final.

My point from the long story...I think the narrative that Woody "did what he could with what he had" is both true, and also not true, at the same time. I think Woody did an excellent job retaining the right players, getting transfer portal guys that would stabilize and help the program, and landing really good HS kids. Those efforts absolutely improved our program. We're unquestionably better today than we were when Archie was fired.

But he hasn't established any sort of good, quality, repeatable basketball principles for his program. They would have been more consistent for him, if he had demanded it of them. They would have defended, made better decisions with the ball, etc... if he had taught those things, and then demanded that they were done. If a HS coach can do it, with a group of talented kids that LOVED playing a certain style that was night and day different than his. Woody could have done it with much better, and more talented and versatile players. Effort, intensity, and focus shouldn't be something up for debate. At least it usually isn't for successful programs. So while I'm excited to see what Woody does this offseason. I'm more than a little wary of how his teams have played. And I'm skeptical a new cast of characters will change the narrative all that much.

Woodson has done ok but he has been given the massive gift of TJD. He is darn lucky he stayed the last two years or I highly doubt we win 20 games either year let alone make the tourney. The true test will be next year honestly to see what kind of a coach he really is.

 

[IUNorth]

I still think there's a chance Woody retires this off season. He's 65 and should have a nice nest egg. Does he have the energy to start over post TJD?

I don't see that. Obviously could happen. But that would shock me. I'm just hoping that the new infusion on the roster, whatever that ends up being, mixes with the returning guys well, whoever the returning guys end up being.

I could see a team largely led by X and Trey, maybe being more focused on consistent intensity and defense than our first two teams were??

But those things should have been demanded all along, regardless of the players, in my opinion.

 

[bailey777]

I don't see that. Obviously could happen. But that would shock me. I'm just hoping that the new infusion on the roster, whatever that ends up being, mixes with the returning guys well, whoever the returning guys end up being.

I could see a team largely led by X and Trey, maybe being more focused on consistent intensity and defense than our first two teams were??

But those things should have been demanded all along, regardless of the players, in my opinion.

They is simply no way bates should return imo. He is a lost cause and best for everyone if he does not return. We need a major major overhaul.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

1. Woody has improved the IU program immensely since he arrived as the head coach.
2. He's vastly underachieved with the talent he inherited.

Personal anecdote...comparing my experiences with the challenges Woody and IU face, at the high major level, in todays world, obviously isn't a perfect example. But there are core elements that I think fit. So here goes...

From my middle school years through the end of my junior year basketball season, my high school had the same basketball coach. He had some success, won our schools first sectional title in many, many years (my 8th grade year I believe). He was, very much, and offensive minded coach. Which worked out very well for me, as I was a gunner. We had very talented teams my sophomore and junior years, but just couldn't seem to put anything consistently good together. We beat some good teams, but couldn't string wins together. Again, I LOVED playing for that coach, I was having a lot of personal success. My junior year, we finished 8-13, and lost in the first round of sectionals to a team we should have beaten by 20. That night, after the game, our coach told us he was leaving. I actually cried, hard, when he told us.

A month or so later, our new coach was hired. He held a "program meeting" with all players, parents, friends...anyone that wanted to be apart of his program. He told everyone in the meeting that anyone that chooses to play in his program would do the following things. Play Hard. Defend. Be a good teammate. And he proceeded to say that he would teach us how to do all those things. But that they were expectations, not goals. And playing time, status on the team, etc... would be effected by our willingness and ability to do those things. No matter how talented we were. In our individual meetings afterwards, he joked with me about "not making it hard for him to enforce the rules." He said he needed me to play a big role, he needed my offense, but that he wouldn't play me if I didn't take those 3 things seriously. (Up until then, I hadn't taken those things seriously at all).

Anyway...the very next day, he started in with entrenching those things in to our team. They were present in every workout, every weight lifting session, every practice, and every game. I remember getting kicked out of an early practice for throwing a ball too hard at a teammate because I was mad they didn't make a play. I remember many moments early on where I had to take off the "black starter jersey" because I wasn't playing hard enough or wasn't defending...embarrassing for the top returning scorer, only returning all conference kid, etc...

With the exact same starting lineup as the year before...we went 21-4. At one point late in the season we were ranked in the top 15 in the state. We beat a top 5 team in the morning game of regionals, before losing in the final.

My point from the long story...I think the narrative that Woody "did what he could with what he had" is both true, and also not true, at the same time. I think Woody did an excellent job retaining the right players, getting transfer portal guys that would stabilize and help the program, and landing really good HS kids. Those efforts absolutely improved our program. We're unquestionably better today than we were when Archie was fired.

But he hasn't established any sort of good, quality, repeatable basketball principles for his program. They would have been more consistent for him, if he had demanded it of them. They would have defended, made better decisions with the ball, etc... if he had taught those things, and then demanded that they were done. If a HS coach can do it, with a group of talented kids that LOVED playing a certain style that was night and day different than his. Woody could have done it with much better, and more talented and versatile players. Effort, intensity, and focus shouldn't be something up for debate. At least it usually isn't for successful programs. So while I'm excited to see what Woody does this offseason. I'm more than a little wary of how his teams have played. And I'm skeptical a new cast of characters will change the narrative all that much.

I hated it when Woodson would say "It was a total team effort" after some of our wins when it was 75% TJD and a few other players would simply make a shot or a play or two.

 

[TyWebbIU]

1. Woody has improved the IU program immensely since he arrived as the head coach.
2. He's vastly underachieved with the talent he inherited.

Personal anecdote...comparing my experiences with the challenges Woody and IU face, at the high major level, in todays world, obviously isn't a perfect example. But there are core elements that I think fit. So here goes...

From my middle school years through the end of my junior year basketball season, my high school had the same basketball coach. He had some success, won our schools first sectional title in many, many years (my 8th grade year I believe). He was, very much, and offensive minded coach. Which worked out very well for me, as I was a gunner. We had very talented teams my sophomore and junior years, but just couldn't seem to put anything consistently good together. We beat some good teams, but couldn't string wins together. Again, I LOVED playing for that coach, I was having a lot of personal success. My junior year, we finished 8-13, and lost in the first round of sectionals to a team we should have beaten by 20. That night, after the game, our coach told us he was leaving. I actually cried, hard, when he told us.

A month or so later, our new coach was hired. He held a "program meeting" with all players, parents, friends...anyone that wanted to be apart of his program. He told everyone in the meeting that anyone that chooses to play in his program would do the following things. Play Hard. Defend. Be a good teammate. And he proceeded to say that he would teach us how to do all those things. But that they were expectations, not goals. And playing time, status on the team, etc... would be effected by our willingness and ability to do those things. No matter how talented we were. In our individual meetings afterwards, he joked with me about "not making it hard for him to enforce the rules." He said he needed me to play a big role, he needed my offense, but that he wouldn't play me if I didn't take those 3 things seriously. (Up until then, I hadn't taken those things seriously at all).

Anyway...the very next day, he started in with entrenching those things in to our team. They were present in every workout, every weight lifting session, every practice, and every game. I remember getting kicked out of an early practice for throwing a ball too hard at a teammate because I was mad they didn't make a play. I remember many moments early on where I had to take off the "black starter jersey" because I wasn't playing hard enough or wasn't defending...embarrassing for the top returning scorer, only returning all conference kid, etc...

With the exact same starting lineup as the year before...we went 21-4. At one point late in the season we were ranked in the top 15 in the state. We beat a top 5 team in the morning game of regionals, before losing in the final.

My point from the long story...I think the narrative that Woody "did what he could with what he had" is both true, and also not true, at the same time. I think Woody did an excellent job retaining the right players, getting transfer portal guys that would stabilize and help the program, and landing really good HS kids. Those efforts absolutely improved our program. We're unquestionably better today than we were when Archie was fired.

But he hasn't established any sort of good, quality, repeatable basketball principles for his program. They would have been more consistent for him, if he had demanded it of them. They would have defended, made better decisions with the ball, etc... if he had taught those things, and then demanded that they were done. If a HS coach can do it, with a group of talented kids that LOVED playing a certain style that was night and day different than his. Woody could have done it with much better, and more talented and versatile players. Effort, intensity, and focus shouldn't be something up for debate. At least it usually isn't for successful programs. So while I'm excited to see what Woody does this offseason. I'm more than a little wary of how his teams have played. And I'm skeptical a new cast of characters will change the narrative all that much.

Great post! The coach has to set expectations and back those expectations up with PT if need be. We gave up 20 offensive rebounds. 20! An Izzo team never would have given up so many rebounds. Hardly anyone on the team boxes out, including our "stars".

Woody will have to have far superior talent or a great deal of luck in order to make deep runs in the tournament. There are just too many good coaches out there that will make these demands on their players and hold them accountable. IU's lazy and undisciplined play aren't attributes that will bring any kind of great success in March.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

I hated it when Woodson would say "It was a total team effort" after some of our wins when it was 75% TJD and a few other players would simply make a shot or a play or two.

Point is....too many times Woody would focus too much on simply winning a game and not owed we played more generally, imo.

 

[HoosierJimbo89]

Miami highlighted IU's flaws and pointed out what is missing at IU. They had the players for a dribble drive offense: athletic, good penetrators, consistent shooters. I can understand Woody focusing the offense on JHS and TJD. But, it was flawed and didn't provide much of a Plan B, C, etc. or a bench. Perhaps IU's roster wasn't good enough to do anything else on offense, but that is a roster construction issue. Losing X really, really hurt because he is athletic and can create his own shot. Bates was counted on to step up this year, and he was wildly inconsistent. There likely needs to be some roster turnover and new faces for next season: a lot of inconsistent non-producers.


Rebounding has to get better, and it was a problem the entire year. Izzo would still be screaming if he was coaching IU yesterday.

 

[IUNorth]

They is simply no way bates should return imo. He is a lost cause and best for everyone if he does not return. We need a major major overhaul.

Not sure I agree with this. New scenery might be best for Bates, at this point. But he can still be really good, at IU. I hope he sticks it out, and becomes a good story for us.

For a good chunk of the season, Bates was threatening 50/40/90 type stats for us...obviously that all went away with how he finished the season. And its concerning, to be sure. But it doesn't take much to see there is talent there. This isn't a Lander situation, in my opinion.

I have no clue if this is accurate...but I think Bates needs Woody to hold EVERYONE accountable for their effort and intensity. My very uninformed, and very much a guess, is Bates struggled quite a lot with what his role was, how he was supposed to play, what was expected of him, etc... It was obvious most of our team, not named TJD, struggled with those things as well. Bates would be a stud on a team all pulling in the right direction, all getting after it every day, all knowing exactly what they're working for.

 

[bailey777]

Not sure I agree with this. New scenery might be best for Bates, at this point. But he can still be really good, at IU. I hope he sticks it out, and becomes a good story for us.

For a good chunk of the season, Bates was threatening 50/40/90 type stats for us...obviously that all went away with how he finished the season. And its concerning, to be sure. But it doesn't take much to see there is talent there. This isn't a Lander situation, in my opinion.

I have no clue if this is accurate...but I think Bates needs Woody to hold EVERYONE accountable for their effort and intensity. My very uninformed, and very much a guess, is Bates struggled quite a lot with what his role was, how he was supposed to play, what was expected of him, etc... It was obvious most of our team, not named TJD, struggled with those things as well. Bates would be a stud on a team all pulling in the right direction, all getting after it every day, all knowing exactly what they're working for.

I 100% disagree he needs to move on. He cannot shoot period. I do not see the talent you refer to he makes horrible decisons and takes god awful shots. I see nothing at all from him to make me think he can turn it around at all. You cannot honestly think he will be a stud this must be a post for the onion.

 

[ryoder1]

I don't see that. Obviously could happen. But that would shock me. I'm just hoping that the new infusion on the roster, whatever that ends up being, mixes with the returning guys well, whoever the returning guys end up being.

I could see a team largely led by X and Trey, maybe being more focused on consistent intensity and defense than our first two teams were??

But those things should have been demanded all along, regardless of the players, in my opinion.

If Trey Galloway ends up being one of our key players next year it will be a long season. I am sure he is a great kid but talent wise he is not what we need. He looked like an average high school player out there vs Miami. He could be a role player who gives you energy minutes but not a core starter. Unfortunately, I don't think we have better options.

A wish list of major overhauls needed through recruiting and/or portal; 1) 3 pt shooting; 2) Perimeter quickness and ability to get to the hole; and 3) Big man who is athletic and physical. As a team we need to vastly improve in both overall athleticism and defensive toughness and mindset. Until this happens we probably don't see another Sweet 16 but certainly not another Final 4 yet alone a Natty.

 

[bailey777]

If Trey Galloway ends up being one of our key players next year it will be a long season. I am sure he is a great kid but talent wise he is not what we need. He looked like an average high school player out there vs Miami. He could be a role player who gives you energy minutes but not a core starter. Unfortunately, I don't think we have better options.

A wish list of major overhauls needed through recruiting and/or portal; 1) 3 pt shooting; 2) Perimeter quickness and ability to get to the hole; and 3) Big man who is athletic and physical. As a team we need to vastly improve in both overall athleticism and defensive toughness and mindset. Until this happens we probably don't see another Sweet 16 but certainly not another Final 4 yet alone a Natty.

100% agree he is best as like a 6th or 7th man basically. Sadly I think it will be a long year unless we hit a portal miracle. Likely will be a few years before we are sniffing the NCAA again. The 2024 recruiting class needs to be a monster or it will be a long couple of years imo.

 

[ryoder1]

Not sure I agree with this. New scenery might be best for Bates, at this point. But he can still be really good, at IU. I hope he sticks it out, and becomes a good story for us.

For a good chunk of the season, Bates was threatening 50/40/90 type stats for us...obviously that all went away with how he finished the season. And its concerning, to be sure. But it doesn't take much to see there is talent there. This isn't a Lander situation, in my opinion.

I have no clue if this is accurate...but I think Bates needs Woody to hold EVERYONE accountable for their effort and intensity. My very uninformed, and very much a guess, is Bates struggled quite a lot with what his role was, how he was supposed to play, what was expected of him, etc... It was obvious most of our team, not named TJD, struggled with those things as well. Bates would be a stud on a team all pulling in the right direction, all getting after it every day, all knowing exactly what they're working for.

Bates probably has some talent but Woodson is not the coach for him. Clearly Woodson can't get him to perform at a level any where close to where we need him to perform. He would have shown something consistent by now. Hard to pinpoint what he actually does well. I guess it is supposed to be shooting but that is laughable at this point. He needs a change of scenery away from B-town.

 

[IUNorth]

If Trey Galloway ends up being one of our key players next year it will be a long season. I am sure he is a great kid but talent wise he is not what we need. He looked like an average high school player out there vs Miami. He could be a role player who gives you energy minutes but not a core starter. Unfortunately, I don't think we have better options.

A wish list of major overhauls needed through recruiting and/or portal; 1) 3 pt shooting; 2) Perimeter quickness and ability to get to the hole; and 3) Big man who is athletic and physical. As a team we need to vastly improve in both overall athleticism and defensive toughness and mindset. Until this happens we probably don't see another Sweet 16 but certainly not another Final 4 yet alone a Natty.

I think Trey could be a starter on a very good high major team. That would require all the players around him to be very good, and very consistent. But I do think his versatility, and overall energy and intensity, could round out a very good starting lineup. At IU, not sure...but as you said, we don't have anything better at this point. He wasn't as up and down, overall, intensity and effort wise as guys like JHS, Race, Jordan, Tamar, and Miller were. But he wasn't immune to lapses either.

Assuming X, Trey, and Malik are 3 of our starters next year. We need 2 high level shooters/scorers for the other 2 starting positions. 1 of them needs some length and ability to guard and rebound with other teams' bigs. Trey's ability to handle the ball, his improved shot, and his versatility on who he can effectively guard, make him a valuable piece. If we get 3 guys that are better than him via portal/late signee, he'd be an awesome 6th man candidate. But I think finding 3 guys that are better, overall, is incredibly unlikely.

 

[go_iu]

1. Woody has improved the IU program immensely since he arrived as the head coach.
2. He's vastly underachieved with the talent he inherited.

Personal anecdote...comparing my experiences with the challenges Woody and IU face, at the high major level, in todays world, obviously isn't a perfect example. But there are core elements that I think fit. So here goes...

From my middle school years through the end of my junior year basketball season, my high school had the same basketball coach. He had some success, won our schools first sectional title in many, many years (my 8th grade year I believe). He was, very much, and offensive minded coach. Which worked out very well for me, as I was a gunner. We had very talented teams my sophomore and junior years, but just couldn't seem to put anything consistently good together. We beat some good teams, but couldn't string wins together. Again, I LOVED playing for that coach, I was having a lot of personal success. My junior year, we finished 8-13, and lost in the first round of sectionals to a team we should have beaten by 20. That night, after the game, our coach told us he was leaving. I actually cried, hard, when he told us.

A month or so later, our new coach was hired. He held a "program meeting" with all players, parents, friends...anyone that wanted to be apart of his program. He told everyone in the meeting that anyone that chooses to play in his program would do the following things. Play Hard. Defend. Be a good teammate. And he proceeded to say that he would teach us how to do all those things. But that they were expectations, not goals. And playing time, status on the team, etc... would be effected by our willingness and ability to do those things. No matter how talented we were. In our individual meetings afterwards, he joked with me about "not making it hard for him to enforce the rules." He said he needed me to play a big role, he needed my offense, but that he wouldn't play me if I didn't take those 3 things seriously. (Up until then, I hadn't taken those things seriously at all).

Anyway...the very next day, he started in with entrenching those things in to our team. They were present in every workout, every weight lifting session, every practice, and every game. I remember getting kicked out of an early practice for throwing a ball too hard at a teammate because I was mad they didn't make a play. I remember many moments early on where I had to take off the "black starter jersey" because I wasn't playing hard enough or wasn't defending...embarrassing for the top returning scorer, only returning all conference kid, etc...

With the exact same starting lineup as the year before...we went 21-4. At one point late in the season we were ranked in the top 15 in the state. We beat a top 5 team in the morning game of regionals, before losing in the final.

My point from the long story...I think the narrative that Woody "did what he could with what he had" is both true, and also not true, at the same time. I think Woody did an excellent job retaining the right players, getting transfer portal guys that would stabilize and help the program, and landing really good HS kids. Those efforts absolutely improved our program. We're unquestionably better today than we were when Archie was fired.

But he hasn't established any sort of good, quality, repeatable basketball principles for his program. They would have been more consistent for him, if he had demanded it of them. They would have defended, made better decisions with the ball, etc... if he had taught those things, and then demanded that they were done. If a HS coach can do it, with a group of talented kids that LOVED playing a certain style that was night and day different than his. Woody could have done it with much better, and more talented and versatile players. Effort, intensity, and focus shouldn't be something up for debate. At least it usually isn't for successful programs. So while I'm excited to see what Woody does this offseason. I'm more than a little wary of how his teams have played. And I'm skeptical a new cast of characters will change the narrative all that much.

Those are all things I'd agree with, but i think the real problem was talent. Race, Kopp, Galloway are not starting caliber B10 players. I like MR, Gunn, and Banks. The all need to put in work, but I think they can be. Newton and Cupps I like as recruits. I hate the portal building idea, but if we have to go that route, we need another big. If X can come back we might not miss much. We suffered from the same problem PU had, offensive predictability.

 

[ce36ei]

Next year will be UGLY. We might not be above .500. I seriously think that. How are we going to score next year? We have nothing.

 

[IUNorth]

Bates probably has some talent but Woodson is not the coach for him. Clearly Woodson can't get him to perform at a level any where close to where we need him to perform. He would have shown something consistent by now. Hard to pinpoint what he actually does well. I guess it is supposed to be shooting but that is laughable at this point. He needs a change of scenery away from B-town.

It wasn't laughable through about halfway through the season. A lot of that success came against lesser competition, to be fair. But the ability is there.

I feel like we were saying similar things about guys like Dane Fife, even Hornsby, halfway through their careers. And they turned it around in a big way. Bates can shoot the ball. I don't care if you're playing all 300 level teams, if you're flirting with 50/40/90 during game play, you can shoot the ball.

His challenge is to figure out why he went so cold late in the season. Woody's challenge too, if it ends up that he comes back.

 

[IUNorth]

Next year will be UGLY. We might not be above .500. I seriously think that. How are we going to score next year? We have nothing.

It'll likely be different, that's for sure. But I'm ready for a big dose of different, at this point.

 

[Harry Hondo]

1. Woody has improved the IU program immensely since he arrived as the head coach.
2. He's vastly underachieved with the talent he inherited.

Personal anecdote...comparing my experiences with the challenges Woody and IU face, at the high major level, in todays world, obviously isn't a perfect example. But there are core elements that I think fit. So here goes...

From my middle school years through the end of my junior year basketball season, my high school had the same basketball coach. He had some success, won our schools first sectional title in many, many years (my 8th grade year I believe). He was, very much, and offensive minded coach. Which worked out very well for me, as I was a gunner. We had very talented teams my sophomore and junior years, but just couldn't seem to put anything consistently good together. We beat some good teams, but couldn't string wins together. Again, I LOVED playing for that coach, I was having a lot of personal success. My junior year, we finished 8-13, and lost in the first round of sectionals to a team we should have beaten by 20. That night, after the game, our coach told us he was leaving. I actually cried, hard, when he told us.

A month or so later, our new coach was hired. He held a "program meeting" with all players, parents, friends...anyone that wanted to be apart of his program. He told everyone in the meeting that anyone that chooses to play in his program would do the following things. Play Hard. Defend. Be a good teammate. And he proceeded to say that he would teach us how to do all those things. But that they were expectations, not goals. And playing time, status on the team, etc... would be effected by our willingness and ability to do those things. No matter how talented we were. In our individual meetings afterwards, he joked with me about "not making it hard for him to enforce the rules." He said he needed me to play a big role, he needed my offense, but that he wouldn't play me if I didn't take those 3 things seriously. (Up until then, I hadn't taken those things seriously at all).

Anyway...the very next day, he started in with entrenching those things in to our team. They were present in every workout, every weight lifting session, every practice, and every game. I remember getting kicked out of an early practice for throwing a ball too hard at a teammate because I was mad they didn't make a play. I remember many moments early on where I had to take off the "black starter jersey" because I wasn't playing hard enough or wasn't defending...embarrassing for the top returning scorer, only returning all conference kid, etc...

With the exact same starting lineup as the year before...we went 21-4. At one point late in the season we were ranked in the top 15 in the state. We beat a top 5 team in the morning game of regionals, before losing in the final.

My point from the long story...I think the narrative that Woody "did what he could with what he had" is both true, and also not true, at the same time. I think Woody did an excellent job retaining the right players, getting transfer portal guys that would stabilize and help the program, and landing really good HS kids. Those efforts absolutely improved our program. We're unquestionably better today than we were when Archie was fired.

But he hasn't established any sort of good, quality, repeatable basketball principles for his program. They would have been more consistent for him, if he had demanded it of them. They would have defended, made better decisions with the ball, etc... if he had taught those things, and then demanded that they were done. If a HS coach can do it, with a group of talented kids that LOVED playing a certain style that was night and day different than his. Woody could have done it with much better, and more talented and versatile players. Effort, intensity, and focus shouldn't be something up for debate. At least it usually isn't for successful programs. So while I'm excited to see what Woody does this offseason. I'm more than a little wary of how his teams have played. And I'm skeptical a new cast of characters will change the narrative all that much.

I don’t think think the talent is nearly what you think it is. No team speed and to be seriously out rebounded by a smaller team last night speaks to the lack of athleticism it takes to win in March. TJD great athlete, but JHS is just a very good athlete, but doesn’t have elite athleticism. After that there is nothing on this team, at least in the rotation. Perhaps Gunn and Banks are great athletes, but are not ready. Bates is Bates and I’m not sure where he fits, if at all. Geronimo, great athlete, but poor basketball player.

 

[bailey777]

Next year will be UGLY. We might not be above .500. I seriously think that. How are we going to score next year? We have nothing.

I have no idea are we going to run the offense through Malik? He has some promise but he is no TJD or even close. At least our expectations will not be high so we will not be letdown I guess.

 

[bailey777]

It wasn't laughable through about halfway through the season. A lot of that success came against lesser competition, to be fair. But the ability is there.

I feel like we were saying similar things about guys like Dane Fife, even Hornsby, halfway through their careers. And they turned it around in a big way. Bates can shoot the ball. I don't care if you're playing all 300 level teams, if you're flirting with 50/40/90 during game play, you can shoot the ball.

His challenge is to figure out why he went so cold late in the season. Woody's challenge too, if it ends up that he comes back.

Bates hasnt his a shot is two months it was not just late in the season. If you take out the Penn State game he shot 10 of 55 since 01/22 which is 18%. Good shooters do not go on two months slumps. He simply is not a good player at this level.

 

[Sobchak_Security]

Next year will be UGLY. We might not be above .500. I seriously think that. How are we going to score next year? We have nothing.

No way of knowing until we know exactly what the roster looks like.

 

[IUNorth]

Those are all things I'd agree with, but i think the real problem was talent. Race, Kopp, Galloway are not starting caliber B10 players. I like MR, Gunn, and Banks. The all need to put in work, but I think they can be. Newton and Cupps I like as recruits. I hate the portal building idea, but if we have to go that route, we need another big. If X can come back we might not miss much. We suffered from the same problem PU had, offensive predictability.

Ehhh...not so sure on that. All those guys you mentioned are as good, or better than any/all of the starters not named Edey on Purdue's roster. Purdue flamed out, as usual. And their conf schedule was easier than ours. But that doesn't account for how much more consistent they were than us, overall. They finished 3 games better, and they spent a chunk of the season ranked number 1 in the country.

Might not be the best comp, with how overrated they obviously were as the year wore on. But to dismiss how good/solid they were, is also disingenuous. And the guys you mentioned all would have competed for starting spots at Purdue.

I do think lateral quickness is an issue with all those guys. Which got exposed many times this year. But there were too many UNC, at Illinois, halves of other games, where we were borderline dominant defensively, against much quicker teams...for me to allow that to be an excuse in my mind. If you can do it for entire halves against good teams...you can do it all the time. You're physically capable of doing it.

We did not have a roster setup similarly to a team like Miami, no, that's obvious. But we showed with our roster, that we could be dominant against various types of teams. For whatever reason, we just didn't do it consistently.

 

[IUNorth]

Bates hasnt his a shot is two months it was not just late in the season. If you take out the Penn State game he shot 10 of 55 since 01/22 which is 18%. Good shooters do not go on two months slumps. He simply is not a good player at this level.

Again...he's shown in prolonged stretches at IU, that he is capable of being a good shooter. Unfortunately, he's also shown he can be really bad. If he had maintained 50/40/90 levels throughout the season, he'd have been an All American, and would be talked about as an NBA draft candidate. He didn't do that when we got in to the tougher part of our schedule.

If he comes back, he and Woody need to figure out why he struggled so badly late in the year. He doesn't need to be 50/40/90 to be a quality start level player. 45/35/80, with very good energy, good defense, strong ball handling...and he's a very important player for us.

I think he can do that.

 

[IUNorth]

I don’t think think the talent is nearly what you think it is. No team speed and to be seriously out rebounded by a smaller team last night speaks to the lack of athleticism it takes to win in March. TJD great athlete, but JHS is just a very good athlete, but doesn’t have elite athleticism. After that there is nothing on this team, at least in the rotation. Perhaps Gunn and Banks are great athletes, but are not ready. Bates is Bates and I’m not sure where he fits, if at all. Geronimo, great athlete, but poor basketball player.

We looked elite multiple times this year.

UNC, at Illinois, 2nd half of Purdue, home game against Rutgers, clawing back against NW/PSU, etc...

Trey is ALOT better athlete than most give him credit for.
TJD is probably the best big man athlete in the country.

Kopp and Race, for sure are limited in their lateral quickness. Kopp isn't an athlete in any way, so that one was a tough one while he was here because he played a position where most teams have arguably their best athlete.

JHS is for sure an elite athlete for his position.

The only thing I'll concede is we weren't as quick laterally as a lot of teams. And that definitely hurt us. Except when it didn't. That's the part I keep coming back to. We showed we could overcome it, actually better than overcome it, multiple times this year.

I suppose our inability to sustain it, could be a sign we were playing above our talent level when we looked good. But I'm not buying that. We literally dominated teams physically at times.

 

[MrBing]

I 100% disagree he needs to move on. He cannot shoot period. I do not see the talent you refer to he makes horrible decisons and takes god awful shots. I see nothing at all from him to make me think he can turn it around at all. You cannot honestly think he will be a stud this must be a post for the onion.

Man, his opinion is not the same as yours. I agree with him. Why can't you leave it at that?

 

[MrBing]

Next year will be UGLY. We might not be above .500. I seriously think that. How are we going to score next year? We have nothing.

It's college basketball and every year on just about every team players step up and improve their scoring and defense. Look at the Murrays at Iowa. Look at Edey. Look at TJD and Galloway. It happens every year. They're not the same players every year in college.

 

[wi_hoosier]

1. Woody has improved the IU program immensely since he arrived as the head coach.
2. He's vastly underachieved with the talent he inherited.

Personal anecdote...comparing my experiences with the challenges Woody and IU face, at the high major level, in todays world, obviously isn't a perfect example. But there are core elements that I think fit. So here goes...

From my middle school years through the end of my junior year basketball season, my high school had the same basketball coach. He had some success, won our schools first sectional title in many, many years (my 8th grade year I believe). He was, very much, and offensive minded coach. Which worked out very well for me, as I was a gunner. We had very talented teams my sophomore and junior years, but just couldn't seem to put anything consistently good together. We beat some good teams, but couldn't string wins together. Again, I LOVED playing for that coach, I was having a lot of personal success. My junior year, we finished 8-13, and lost in the first round of sectionals to a team we should have beaten by 20. That night, after the game, our coach told us he was leaving. I actually cried, hard, when he told us.

A month or so later, our new coach was hired. He held a "program meeting" with all players, parents, friends...anyone that wanted to be apart of his program. He told everyone in the meeting that anyone that chooses to play in his program would do the following things. Play Hard. Defend. Be a good teammate. And he proceeded to say that he would teach us how to do all those things. But that they were expectations, not goals. And playing time, status on the team, etc... would be effected by our willingness and ability to do those things. No matter how talented we were. In our individual meetings afterwards, he joked with me about "not making it hard for him to enforce the rules." He said he needed me to play a big role, he needed my offense, but that he wouldn't play me if I didn't take those 3 things seriously. (Up until then, I hadn't taken those things seriously at all).

Anyway...the very next day, he started in with entrenching those things in to our team. They were present in every workout, every weight lifting session, every practice, and every game. I remember getting kicked out of an early practice for throwing a ball too hard at a teammate because I was mad they didn't make a play. I remember many moments early on where I had to take off the "black starter jersey" because I wasn't playing hard enough or wasn't defending...embarrassing for the top returning scorer, only returning all conference kid, etc...

With the exact same starting lineup as the year before...we went 21-4. At one point late in the season we were ranked in the top 15 in the state. We beat a top 5 team in the morning game of regionals, before losing in the final.

My point from the long story...I think the narrative that Woody "did what he could with what he had" is both true, and also not true, at the same time. I think Woody did an excellent job retaining the right players, getting transfer portal guys that would stabilize and help the program, and landing really good HS kids. Those efforts absolutely improved our program. We're unquestionably better today than we were when Archie was fired.

But he hasn't established any sort of good, quality, repeatable basketball principles for his program. They would have been more consistent for him, if he had demanded it of them. They would have defended, made better decisions with the ball, etc... if he had taught those things, and then demanded that they were done. If a HS coach can do it, with a group of talented kids that LOVED playing a certain style that was night and day different than his. Woody could have done it with much better, and more talented and versatile players. Effort, intensity, and focus shouldn't be something up for debate. At least it usually isn't for successful programs. So while I'm excited to see what Woody does this offseason. I'm more than a little wary of how his teams have played. And I'm skeptical a new cast of characters will change the narrative all that much.

I don't think he inherited that much talent. Nothing I have seen from Bates, Geronimo, Kopp, Galloway, Leal, Race, Duncomb, (Phinisee, Stewart last year) show me that they are that talented. TJD was talented. The others were role players with glaring limits. He brought in JHS and Reneau, who have talent but were freshman and need to grow. Gunn and Banks are projects.

 

[bailey777]

Again...he's shown in prolonged stretches at IU, that he is capable of being a good shooter. Unfortunately, he's also shown he can be really bad. If he had maintained 50/40/90 levels throughout the season, he'd have been an All American, and would be talked about as an NBA draft candidate. He didn't do that when we got in to the tougher part of our schedule.

If he comes back, he and Woody need to figure out why he struggled so badly late in the year. He doesn't need to be 50/40/90 to be a quality start level player. 45/35/80, with very good energy, good defense, strong ball handling...and he's a very important player for us.

I think he can do that.

I think you are delusional. It is best for both parties if he moves on.

 

[outside shooter]

If he had maintained 50/40/90 levels throughout the season, he'd have been an All American, and would be talked about as an NBA draft candidate.

He would not be a 50/40/90 guy even if he were playing every game vs. Chicago St. and St. Mary of the Woods

 

[GeorgeStrait IU]

They is simply no way bates should return imo. He is a lost cause and best for everyone if he does not return. We need a major major overhaul.

Bates belongs at a mid major. Or a low major like Antoine Davis competed at where he can get away with bad shot selection and score at will all the while looking for daddy in the crowd.

 

[TyWebbIU]

It wasn't laughable through about halfway through the season. A lot of that success came against lesser competition, to be fair. But the ability is there.

I feel like we were saying similar things about guys like Dane Fife, even Hornsby, halfway through their careers. And they turned it around in a big way. Bates can shoot the ball. I don't care if you're playing all 300 level teams, if you're flirting with 50/40/90 during game play, you can shoot the ball.

His challenge is to figure out why he went so cold late in the season. Woody's challenge too, if it ends up that he comes back.

Bates lost confidence. He is too good of a shooter to miss so many open looks. I think, if Bates transfers to the "right" situation...he will be almost unrecognizable to people here. He'll be very good (maybe great). Bates has talent. There's no doubt about that.

 

[jsig]

I thought he had to recruit TJD to stay. TJD couldn't leave quick enough until Woody arrived.

 

[IUNorth]

He would not be a 50/40/90 guy even if he were playing every game vs. Chicago St. and St. Mary of the Woods

You can say that...but he was very, very close to that heading in to the B10 season this year. The B10 schedule came, and he cooled off, then went ice cold.

He proved he CAN do it. He also showed he's not yet capable of sustaining it. And there's still a big question mark on whether he can do it against B10 level teams, consistently.

But hes already shown he is capable of making shots. It wasn't just Cav pushing for Bates to get more time earlier in the year. There was a lot of talk about him getting Kopp's minutes. And it was because of how he was shooting the ball earlier in the year.

 

[Harry Hondo]

We looked elite multiple times this year.

UNC, at Illinois, 2nd half of Purdue, home game against Rutgers, clawing back against NW/PSU, etc...

Trey is ALOT better athlete than most give him credit for.
TJD is probably the best big man athlete in the country.

Kopp and Race, for sure are limited in their lateral quickness. Kopp isn't an athlete in any way, so that one was a tough one while he was here because he played a position where most teams have arguably their best athlete.

JHS is for sure an elite athlete for his position.

The only thing I'll concede is we weren't as quick laterally as a lot of teams. And that definitely hurt us. Except when it didn't. That's the part I keep coming back to. We showed we could overcome it, actually better than overcome it, multiple times this year.

I suppose our inability to sustain it, could be a sign we were playing above our talent level when we looked good. But I'm not buying that. We literally dominated teams physically at times.

Then there’s Arizona and Kansas that dominated us, which you conveniently left out. Sure, we dominated some B1G teams and UNC, but who hasn’t? MSU will go down to K-State this week.

 

[IUNorth]

Bates lost confidence. He is too good of a shooter to miss so many open looks. I think, if Bates transfers to the "right" situation...he will be almost unrecognizable to people here. He'll be very good (maybe great). Bates has talent. There's no doubt about that.

He could become an Al Durham type player somewhere else. Al was frustratingly inconsistent under Archie. He became a consistent go to player at Providence.

I hope Bates regains his confidence here. It'll be a great story if he does. But a change of scenery may end up being what's best for everyone. And that'll be fine too.

 

[VanPastorMan]

Miami highlighted IU's flaws and pointed out what is missing at IU. They had the players for a dribble drive offense: athletic, good penetrators, consistent shooters. I can understand Woody focusing the offense on JHS and TJD. But, it was flawed and didn't provide much of a Plan B, C, etc. or a bench. Perhaps IU's roster wasn't good enough to do anything else on offense, but that is a roster construction issue. Losing X really, really hurt because he is athletic and can create his own shot. Bates was counted on to step up this year, and he was wildly inconsistent. There likely needs to be some roster turnover and new faces for next season: a lot of inconsistent non-producers.


Rebounding has to get better, and it was a problem the entire year. Izzo would still be screaming if he was coaching IU yesterday.

Defense,rebounding, and turnovers is what did IU in. Last night I made the point,"Look at IU's eyes. They have bad eyes. On the other hand Miami looked all fired up. They had the eye of the tiger.

 

[IUNorth]

Then there’s Arizona and Kansas that dominated us, which you conveniently left out. Sure, we dominated some B1G teams and UNC, but who hasn’t? MSU will go down to K-State this week.

Interesting...since my entire premise of our main issues...basically all season, has been our inconsistency effort and intensity wise.

Soo...yep???

 

[Courtsensetwo]

Miami highlighted IU's flaws and pointed out what is missing at IU. They had the players for a dribble drive offense: athletic, good penetrators, consistent shooters. I can understand Woody focusing the offense on JHS and TJD. But, it was flawed and didn't provide much of a Plan B, C, etc. or a bench. Perhaps IU's roster wasn't good enough to do anything else on offense, but that is a roster construction issue. Losing X really, really hurt because he is athletic and can create his own shot. Bates was counted on to step up this year, and he was wildly inconsistent. There likely needs to be some roster turnover and new faces for next season: a lot of inconsistent non-producers.


Rebounding has to get better, and it was a problem the entire year. Izzo would still be screaming if he was coaching IU yesterday.

This isn’t wrong but the biggest factor IMO was that their heart wasn’t in it. Now I heard that JHS was really torn up in the locker room.

I was a bit surprised by that TBH