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WHY Crean is not going to make IU "Elite" again

It could be argued the other way too, bro. lol. wish the crean defenders would quit enabling this concept of new IU, where sweet 16s are enough. You are ruining a once proud program. see how that works? :)
I've always said that you can't get rid of Crean unless you have a slam dunk coach to replace him. If you got a coach that was the same level as Crean then IU would have the same results after that coach turned the program around because if Crean leaves it will shake things up and you will have to start over. The truth is all of want IU to be elite and win big. But let's not just get rid of Crean to get rid of him.
 
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I've always said that you can't get rid of Crean unless you have a slam dunk coach to replace him. If you got a coach that was the same level as Crean then IU would have the same results after that coach turned the program around because if Crean leaves it will shake things up and you will have to start over. The truth is all of want IU to be elite and win big. But let's not just get rid of Crean to get rid of him.
You would not have to start over. That's always been a weak weak argument from pro crean guys.
 
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Well, you see. I don't know who wants to come and coach IU. I don't know who doesn't want to coach in Bloomington. And I don't really care.
You, or your source, on the other hand seem to know exactly what these coaches think about the IU job.
As an IU grad I follow IU and don't really care about other teams and their coaches.
I am just tired of hearing that no decent coach will come to IU because the fan base is insane (true, we are that). For $3,000,000 most would put up with a fan base composed entirely of English footbal hooligans.

He can easily pick apart those other coaches, but not Crean? That's all I need to know. The antithesis of objectionable people.
 
We’ve gone back and forth on here several times this past year – really, since the Syracuse loss 3 years ago – on whether Tom Crean is the right coach for Indiana.


Some of you think he’s doing a great job. Others, while hoping for better results, were pretty satisfied with this past season.


Me? Most of you know by now my feelings on Tom Crean. It’s not that I want to feel this way; in fact, I was thrilled when he was hired in 2008 (thought he should have been in 2006 instead of Sampson).


But after the past 8 years – especially the last three – I’ve had to face a sobering reality: what we’ve seen from Tom Crean-led teams up to this point (and throughout his head coaching career) is what we’re gonna get. It just is. I’ve been privileged to get to know a lot of coaches both in HS and AAU in the past decade, and they’ve helped open my eyes to WHY Tom Crean teams fair as they do.

As I’ve said before many times, Crean wants to play a fast-paced style (like UNC or UK) but his teams don’t do the things necessary to have success on an elite level consistently. That is the key here – consistently.


Take a look at some stats with me. I shared some of the following in another thread, but want to go more into detail here. This link looks at how teams statistically perform each year – it goes all the way back to the 1997-98 season. You can look up almost every conceivable stat, but the ones that are the strongest indicators of how successful a team is/isn’t are offensive efficiency, defensive efficiency, turnovers and rebounds. (You can choose which stat link you wish at the top).


Why these stats? Obviously, scoring more points than the other team is the objective. But just HOW do you do that? Just by simply shooting the ball well? That helps, obviously - but what happens when you run into a really good defensive team in a tournament format (either BTT or NCAA)? You have to (and I’ve had numerous coaches tell me this over the past 10 years) maximize possessions. You can shoot at a lower percentage than your opponent IF you get more attempts. And to do that, you have to do the other things besides shooting the ball well.


Let’s take a look at this past season. I’ve said on here numerous times this year that the 2015-16 Hoosiers were overly reliant on offense for their success, and that Crean wants to play like North Carolina and Kentucky. Let’s see a statistical comparison between those three teams, starting with offense:


Code:
2016        Tom Crean      Roy Williams  John Calipari

Off. Eff    1.169 (1)      1.153 (4)      1.127 (11)

IU led the nation in offensive efficiency – ahead of both the Tar Heels and Wildcats. In 17 years as a Head Basketball Coach, his teams have been Top 10 5 times, Top 5 four times and led the nation twice (2016,2003). Conversely, Roy Williams has had 7 season with Top 5 offenses since 1997-98 (the link provided only goes back to that season) and John Calipari has had 2 top 10 offensive teams (he did, however, have 11th rated teams in both 2015 and 2016). So, no doubt, Crean is capable of coaching offense with either of these two guys.


But what is the old adage? “Defense wins championships”. Let’s take a look at how each team fared defensively in 2015-16:


Code:
2016        Tom Crean      Roy Williams  John Calipari

Def. Eff    .989 (106)    .976 (82)      .965 (51)


On the surface, that doesn’t look too bad, does it? Crean appears to be close to both Williams and Calipari in producing an adequate defense.


But over 17 years as a coach, the past season was Crean’s 6th best defensive team. Since 1998, Williams has had FIFTEEN teams that were better defensively (6 in top 25, one of those as high as 3rd), while Calipari since 2000-01 (16 seasons) has had ELEVEN better teams than the #51 team of this past year – six of which were top 10 defenses with two #1’s and two #2’s.


Let’s take a look at a real problem this past year for IU – Turnovers. Check out these 2015-16 numbers:


Code:
2016        Tom Crean      Roy Williams  John Calipari

TO / gm    13.4 (258)    10.8 (29)      11.2 (49)


IU averaged almost 3 turnovers more per game than UNC, a little over 2 more than UK. Again (as I was told by a certain coach) you can’t give possessions away and hope to achieve at a high level. This has killed some of Crean’s better teams (they averaged 13.0 a game in 2013; not surprisingly, his best team (2003) averaged 12.5 on the way to the Final Four. Calipari teams at Memphis and UK have averaged 12.7/yr since 2001, while the 10.8 was an all-time low for Williams (and look at what the result was – national runner-up). Williams teams since 1998 have averaged 14.2 turnovers, slightly higher Crean (although his numbers are trending better the last 7-8 years than he did in the early 2000’s).


Now comes the real separation between Crean and the other two – rebounding:


2015-16

Code:
2016        Tom Crean      Roy Williams  John Calipari

Reb / gm    36.8 (119)    40.6 (15)      38.8 (50)


IU lost out on nearly 4 more possessions per game this past season than UNC, exactly two more per game than UK.


And Calipari and Williams didn’t even have some of their better rebounding teams this year. Since 1998 (19 seasons), Roy Williams has had 15 of his teams finish in the top 10 in the nation in rebounding; 12 of those teams were top 5, with 4 #1’s, 2 #2’s and 2 #3’s. That’s right, EIGHT teams in the top 3!! He has produced 11 teams that averaged 40 or more rebounds. Calipari has had 6 top 10 rebounding teams (2 top 5) and produced 6 teams that averaged 40 or more.


Tom Crean? In 17 years as a head coach, Crean has not had a SINGLE TEAM either in the top 10 OR a team to average 40 rebounds.


Wanna know what is the worst? Take a look at the Strength of Schedules – both overall and Non-Conference:


Code:
Year    IU / Crean        UNC/RW        UK/Cal  

        SOS   NC-SOS   SOS  NC-SOS    SOS   NC-SOS

2016    64    265      6    106       39    62

2015    65    322      1    15        31    100

2014    58    335      19   126       3     62

2013    17    293      19   183       71    138

2012    16    273      35   85        28    177

2011    27    323      8    39        15    52

2010    61    321      10   170       53    223

2009    3     76       15   126       70    56

2008    39    286      3    109       67    59

2007    53    268      7    88        109   86

2006    18    205      22   173       85    31

2005    102   235      1    73        91    147

2004    108   265      1    68        63    112

2003    46    178      2    54        86    105

2002    90    251      10   26        101   206


Tom Crean-led teams – as demonstrated in the stats above – have consistently performed worse than the teams/coaches whose style of play he wants to emulate, all while playing a MUCH WORSE schedule than either of them.


Again, I don’t want to say this. But when you take a look at how his team performs, and take into account whom they’ve been playing, how can you say Tom Crean is the right coach and say in the same breath your goal is to be elite (as Fred Glass did at the end of last season)? There is a direct correlation between how these team perform statistically and how they fare(d) in the NCAA Tournament.


Numbers don't lie. Tom Crean isn’t going to get us there, folks. The eye test in games like Duke, Michigan St, Syracuse in 2013, etc . . .gives an indication of that. The stats confirm it.
Wow. You went to a lot of work to support your hypothesis.

But these stats don't go your way entirely. In fact, they show:

1. IU was better in offensive efficiency than Kentucky and North Carolina. That's good.

2. As for defensive efficiency, IU closed the gap considerably with Kentucky and North Carolina in 2015-16. That's good, too. You admit that this was only Crean's sixth best defensive team and I'll take your word for that. I wonder whether IU's defensive efficiency stats would be noticeably different in comparing IU's defense for the first part of the season (up through the Duke game) to IU's defense for the rest of the season. (NOTE: We held Kentucky to 67 points.)

3. Can't disagree with you as to the turnovers. Again, I'd like to see IU's average turnovers per game in 2015-16 calculated up through the Duke game and then calculated separately for the games following the Duke game.

4. As for rebounding, I'm not sure the gap is due to in-game coaching or practice coaching as much as it's due to the fact that North Carolina and Kentucky strike me as much taller than IU in most years. IU had only one player at 6-10 (Bryant, 6-10 and 245 lbs). However, this year, North Carolina had three players of Bryant's size: Meeks (6-10 and 260), Johnson (6-10, 230) and James (6-11, 280). Kentucky also had three players of Bryant's size: Humphries (7-0, 260), LaBissiere (6-11, 225), and Wynyard (6-10, 255).

Year after year, we seem to have only one guy 6-10 or bigger no matter how creative our recruiting gets. (Remember Guy Marc Michel?). Don't know what can be done here.
 
One thing is to stop giving scholarships to players based solely upon height. Would any 5-star recruits are going to be excited about practicing against players who might get in a game after the team manager.

CTC gave away a number of scholarships over the years to big men who could not play basketball. It appears that era may be coming to an end.

CTC and the Hoosiers were screwed by the guy who left for Marquette after one semester. And Vonleh going to the d-league after a year did not help either.
 
Are you serious gator. Who would you take in the Bigten over CTC. I assume your joking. I hope you are not that ignorant about basketball.
 
Painter, Miles, Croce, Rutgers situation, Collins, McCaffery, Pitino, Turgeon not impressive this year at all. Matta the last 4 yrs has not been good next year doesnt look any better. Crean has owned Bielin for the most part although I think he is a very good coach. Gard unproven see how he does with is own players. Mike Davis looked good the first year too.3 or 4 coaches wow might have been the most head shaking post i have seen. By the way we have won 2 bigten championships in the last 4 years and in better shape than any of the coaches i named to win another next year.
 
Wow. You went to a lot of work to support your hypothesis.


But these stats don't go your way entirely. In fact, they show:


1. IU was better in offensive efficiency than Kentucky and North Carolina. That's good.


.


I believe I acknowledged that, right.

Crean’s teams have been pretty good offensively over his time as a coach. They don’t do a lot of other things well, though – and THAT is the issue.

2. As for defensive efficiency, IU closed the gap considerably with Kentucky and North Carolina in 2015-16. That's good, too. You admit that this was only Crean's sixth best defensive team and I'll take your word for that. I wonder whether IU's defensive efficiency stats would be noticeably different in comparing IU's defense for the first part of the season (up through the Duke game) to IU's defense for the rest of the season. (NOTE: We held Kentucky to 67 points.)


“closed the gap considerably” – please explain this comment. Not sure where you’re going with that.

And I agree IU’s defense got better the second half of the season – mainly because OG and Juwan got more time on the court. Just imagine if JBJr hadn’t gotten hurt. Do you somehow think those guys would have gotten as much time? I don’t.

Please don’t take my word this was Crean’s 6th best defensive team. Use the link I provided. Or give me a way to post a Excel file out where everyone has access to it. Formatting it to read in a post is a pain in the butt, but if necessary I’ll post all the info I found for you to see.


3. Can't disagree with you as to the turnovers. Again, I'd like to see IU's average turnovers per game in 2015-16 calculated up through the Duke game and then calculated separately for the games following the Duke game.


I’ve always been a big believer in fundamentals. That’s why this one galls me more than any other. There is no reason a team should have as many careless turnovers as we do. I’d challenge anyone to find a team that has been as consistently poor at turnovers as IU that has done anything come tournament time. And in the unlikely event there IS one, they likely do something really well to counter-balance it (such as rebounding).

4. As for rebounding, I'm not sure the gap is due to in-game coaching or practice coaching as much as it's due to the fact that North Carolina and Kentucky strike me as much taller than IU in most years. IU had only one player at 6-10 (Bryant, 6-10 and 245 lbs). However, this year, North Carolina had three players of Bryant's size: Meeks (6-10 and 260), Johnson (6-10, 230) and James (6-11, 280). Kentucky also had three players of Bryant's size: Humphries (7-0, 260), LaBissiere (6-11, 225), and Wynyard (6-10, 255).


Year after year, we seem to have only one guy 6-10 or bigger no matter how creative our recruiting gets. (Remember Guy Marc Michel?). Don't know what can be done here.


What is one of the things I’ve been saying about Crean? He doesn’t recruit to the level of these two teams, but he wants to play like them.


In all of his time, who are his really big recruiting prizes? Zeller? Check – although once IU was a viable option for a Zeller (Luke and Tyler didn’t go because of Davis and Sampson) it was almost a foregone conclusion Cody would end up in Bloomington. Washington, Indiana is about as big of an IU town as you’re ever gonna find.


Who else? Vonleh? Incredible specimen – but pretty immature, also.


Yogi? One of the most talented players IU has had at PG, but honestly he didn’t become a leader until the second half of his senior year.


Bryant? You do realize Syracuse’s troubles that led to Boeheim sitting out a portion of last season led to him coming to Indiana, right?


Crean is supposed to be this really great recruiter. Well, where are they? I’m not trying to be snarky by saying that – I’m really wanting to know. Because getting adequate talent is part of being an elite coach, especially when you’ve got really good players from this state you should be able to bring in.
 
This is a well-researched post and it's perfectly legitimate to put it up. And I suspect you're right. But Crean has earned the right to coach for another year, probably two barring a disaster. We've been would-be-elite for several years now and we'll risk being it a little longer.

I don't think Tom Crean ought to be fired after this season. I wasn't overly impressed by what he produced, but it wasn't the prior two years, either.

I have a lot of hope for this freshman class. It's no secret to me that IU got better this year when those kids all got on the floor. They show a lot of promise, and IF Newkirk can handle things at the PG slot this team has a chance to be pretty good.
 
Tasmanian Devil a lot of work to put this together for that i commend you. But Im going to challenge your thinking a little. I work with people everyday on very personal level. For the most part your posts are usually negative. All your stats left out one thing. That people can improve and do. CTC did this year. There are fans on the Villanova site that were continually bashing Jay Wright and said he will never get to a final four again but he did. You know what a few are saying now. I will not believe he is a good coach until he wins another one.With that being said I enjoyed your post. At least you had reasons why you feel the way you do

Our defense did get better in the second half of the year - but why?

One reason (and I've heard this from several coaches who know) is tha Crean didn't continue to have 2-3 hour practices late in the season. Am I glad he didn't? Yes - but, for cryin out loud already don't you think a guy who is making $3.5 mil/yr should already KNOW that?

Also, that defense got better because OG and Juwan got to play more during the Big 10 season. Do you really think they would have seen the court as much with JBJr playing (had he not injured his knee)? I don't.

Listen, I'm not trying to be Donnie Downer. But I have to be realistic. And the reality is there's not a lot in Tom Crean's ability as a coach that leads one to believe that he can be a difference maker going forward.

Now I want to challenge your thinking. You said Tom Crean improved this year, right? Please give us examples of HOW he improved. Provide specifics to bolster what you believe.

I've always been a big believe that things just don't happen randomly. Look at what Tom Izzo has done at Michigan St. He does that because he recruits well, has created a culture of winning and his teams do the things necessary to be successful. I have the same stats for both Jay Wright and Izzo and can post them if need be. When you look at the data side-by-side, it's not hard to see why Crean doesn't fair as well as those other coaches.
 
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Wow. You went to a lot of work to support your hypothesis.

But these stats don't go your way entirely. In fact, they show:

1. IU was better in offensive efficiency than Kentucky and North Carolina. That's good.

2. As for defensive efficiency, IU closed the gap considerably with Kentucky and North Carolina in 2015-16. That's good, too. You admit that this was only Crean's sixth best defensive team and I'll take your word for that. I wonder whether IU's defensive efficiency stats would be noticeably different in comparing IU's defense for the first part of the season (up through the Duke game) to IU's defense for the rest of the season. (NOTE: We held Kentucky to 67 points.)

3. Can't disagree with you as to the turnovers. Again, I'd like to see IU's average turnovers per game in 2015-16 calculated up through the Duke game and then calculated separately for the games following the Duke game.

4. As for rebounding, I'm not sure the gap is due to in-game coaching or practice coaching as much as it's due to the fact that North Carolina and Kentucky strike me as much taller than IU in most years. IU had only one player at 6-10 (Bryant, 6-10 and 245 lbs). However, this year, North Carolina had three players of Bryant's size: Meeks (6-10 and 260), Johnson (6-10, 230) and James (6-11, 280). Kentucky also had three players of Bryant's size: Humphries (7-0, 260), LaBissiere (6-11, 225), and Wynyard (6-10, 255).

Year after year, we seem to have only one guy 6-10 or bigger no matter how creative our recruiting gets. (Remember Guy Marc Michel?). Don't know what can be done here.
You complain about size issues who puts the roster together ???
 
ORG, did you even read my post? I have never stated who I would want to coach at IU. If you had read the post you would have seen that I don't know who the so-calle ELITE coaches are nor do I care. I want a coach who wins with integrity. I am more than OK with the past season's results. Losing to UNC was no disgrace.

As to the last sentence: I have seen on here several times that the reason coaches would not want the IU job is because we have an insane fan base. True or not (probably true) most people would put up with it for $3 million a year.

I did read your post.

Your last sentence is the one my post was directed it. My point was that if IU wanted an existing "elite coach" they would have to pay more than 3 million year.

Since you never really said what "elite" means to you, I presumed the teams you called "elite" must have "elite coaches". And, all of them already make more $ than CTC so it is doubtful they would take a pay-cut to coach IU.
 
Another pissing match .Read all the replies here and It's still the same ole chit . Tas is on his puter looking at this and laughing at all ur replies, maybe even taking his laptop to the bathroom.He seethes over Creans success ...reminds me of a guy who has disappeared from the old scout board after it collapsed because of his rant.. GC is this you?:mad:

Thanks for contributing something meaningful to the conversation.
 
Are you serious gator. Who would you take in the Bigten over CTC. I assume your joking. I hope you are not that ignorant about basketball.

Quintessential procreaner post. Hehehe. Love it. You have to ignore the multiple deep tourney runs by the best coaches in our league to make your ridiculous paradigm work. Cognitive bias at its best. His 2nd and 3rd best teams ever got punked in the sweet 16. What did the 2nd or 3rd best izzo or matta or beilein teams do?
 
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Can you imagine how this board would be right now with Matta it would be brutal. hondo you be the first one piling on.
 
My biggest complaint on Crean has always been recruiting. It's just not up to snuff if we ever want to be elite. Tom Crean is not Bo Ryan, Tom Izzo, or Coach K. He simply can't win at an elite level with 4 star talent and the occasional 5 star sprinkled in. He needs at least 5 burger boys every year just like Roy and Cal do to have a chance of doing anything in the tourney. The problem is that he never recruits anywhere near that type of talent. He's had 1 top 10 recruit in 9 classes. One. And that guy Vonleh was a fringe top 10 recruit and was outside the top 10 by a couple recruiting sites. He should be getting a top 10 guy at least every other year at a program like IU. If we want to be elite Tom Crean simply isn't the guy.
 
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But would you agree there is more than 3 or 4 coaches that he is better than in the bigten.
 
I did read your post.

Your last sentence is the one my post was directed it. My point was that if IU wanted an existing "elite coach" they would have to pay more than 3 million year.

Since you never really said what "elite" means to you, I presumed the teams you called "elite" must have "elite coaches". And, all of them already make more $ than CTC so it is doubtful they would take a pay-cut to coach IU.

We are just talking past each other. I have never stated which teams or coaches I would deem elite. I don't care about ELITE. As I posted, I want a coach who wins with integrity. The past season was about what I expected, post Duke.

If by elite people mean Calapari or Coach K, I agree they are going nowhere. Well. perhaps the NBA.
 
We are just talking past each other. I have never stated which teams or coaches I would deem elite. I don't care about ELITE. As I posted, I want a coach who wins with integrity. The past season was about what I expected, post Duke.

If by elite people mean Calapari or Coach K, I agree they are going nowhere. Well. perhaps the NBA.
OK... we are agreeing on more than we are disagreeing on . . . Time to move on.

Have a wonderful week!!!
 
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But would you agree there is more than 3 or 4 coaches that he is better than in the bigten.

Maybe but there are at least 5 coaches in the B1G who are clearly better than Crean. That is an absolute travesty given that we are clearly the flagship program of the conference with by far the most revenue, largest fan base, best resources, and the highest recruiting budget. The recent WSJ are basically had us tied at #3 with UK for most revenue nationally. We can do a lot better than Crean.
 
Can you imagine how this board would be right now with Matta it would be brutal. hondo you be the first one piling on.

Huh? He's been to two elite 8s, a ff, and a title game plus has won bt titles and conf tournament titles. Where are you getting this crap that nothing will satisfy iu fan? That's just the kind of winning that would. You've lost your mind. Up is down and down is up to you. oh man. Lol
 
Huh? He's been to two elite 8s, a ff, and a title game plus has won bt titles and conf tournament titles. Where are you getting this crap that nothing will satisfy iu fan? That's just the kind of winning that would. You've lost your mind. Up is down and down is up to you. oh man. Lol
Has Matta dropped off a bit that past 2-3 years? Yep.

But maybe we need to look at his numbers, also. Working right now to format all the info to post for all to see. Might as well add one more.
 
Great my point on Coach Matta is even though he is a great coach the last 4 years would not be acceptable on this board and they will be nothing special next year. Some of the things that people complain about are happening there right now.How about the meltdown at IU last year happened on more than once. Number two player turnover 4 players left there were also player suspensions. Questionable recruiting with bringing in Lyles. Some on this would crucified CTC for bringing him in to IU.Im just saying a 5 year period is a long time.The last thought is yes he has been to final fours but the reason he made it was because of Oden and Conley. I personally dont believe that but some on this board say the only reason CTC made it was because of Wade. And yes Hondo you wouldnt be happy with last 4 years and this coming year at OSU your talking out of both sides of your mouth.
 
Great my point on Coach Matta is even though he is a great coach the last 4 years would not be acceptable on this board and they will be nothing special next year. Some of the things that people complain about are happening there right now.How about the meltdown at IU last year happened on more than once. Number two player turnover 4 players left there were also player suspensions. Questionable recruiting with bringing in Lyles. Some on this would crucified CTC for bringing him in to IU.Im just saying a 5 year period is a long time.The last thought is yes he has been to final fours but the reason he made it was because of Oden and Conley. I personally dont believe that but some on this board say the only reason CTC made it was because of Wade. And yes Hondo you wouldnt be happy with last 4 years and this coming year at OSU your talking out of both sides of your mouth.

C'mon Niego- you know better than that.

Here's Thad Matta's head coaching record.

2 Final Fours (1 RU), 2 Elite 8's, 2 Sweet 16's. In 15 years has made the NCAA Tournament 12 times (1 year tOSU was ineligible; no fault of Matta's). Won 2008 NIT

Here's Tom Crean's head coaching record.

1 FF, 3 Sweet 16's. In 15 years (take out the obligatory 2008-10 seasons) he has made the NCAA Tournament 9 times.

Will not disagree on Jaquan. But I also kow (for a fact) Thad has some health issues going on that has hurt him more than some know the past couple of years.

Just compare the last 5 years, for cryin out loud! Are you kidding me?
 
C'mon Niego- you know better than that.

Here's Thad Matta's head coaching record.

2 Final Fours (1 RU), 2 Elite 8's, 2 Sweet 16's. In 15 years has made the NCAA Tournament 12 times (1 year tOSU was ineligible; no fault of Matta's). Won 2008 NIT

Here's Tom Crean's head coaching record.

1 FF, 3 Sweet 16's. In 15 years (take out the obligatory 2008-10 seasons) he has made the NCAA Tournament 9 times.

Will not disagree on Jaquan. But I also kow (for a fact) Thad has some health issues going on that has hurt him more than some know the past couple of years.

Just compare the last 5 years, for cryin out loud! Are you kidding me?
I've seen Thad trying to "walk" around his kids cross country meets. He's in terrible shape
 
Great my point on Coach Matta is even though he is a great coach the last 4 years would not be acceptable on this board and they will be nothing special next year. Some of the things that people complain about are happening there right now.How about the meltdown at IU last year happened on more than once. Number two player turnover 4 players left there were also player suspensions. Questionable recruiting with bringing in Lyles. Some on this would crucified CTC for bringing him in to IU.Im just saying a 5 year period is a long time.The last thought is yes he has been to final fours but the reason he made it was because of Oden and Conley. I personally dont believe that but some on this board say the only reason CTC made it was because of Wade. And yes Hondo you wouldnt be happy with last 4 years and this coming year at OSU your talking out of both sides of your mouth.
Unlike TC and Wade, Matta made it to another FF
 
My biggest complaint on Crean has always been recruiting. It's just not up to snuff if we ever want to be elite. Tom Crean is not Bo Ryan, Tom Izzo, or Coach K. He simply can't win at an elite level with 4 star talent and the occasional 5 star sprinkled in. He needs at least 5 burger boys every year just like Roy and Cal do to have a chance of doing anything in the tourney. The problem is that he never recruits anywhere near that type of talent. He's had 1 top 10 recruit in 9 classes. One. And that guy Vonleh was a fringe top 10 recruit and was outside the top 10 by a couple recruiting sites. He should be getting a top 10 guy at least every other year at a program like IU. If we want to be elite Tom Crean simply isn't the guy.
Problem is that IU never has recruited to that level and to think we will now is kind of unrealistic.
 
Good points over there careers. But if were honest they ar two programs going in opposite directions. Matta recruiting has also dropped the talent and the quality. Check out his last two recruits. His health is a major concern not saying CTC is the answer but I wouldnt swap coaches right now
 
Good points over there careers. But if were honest they ar two programs going in opposite directions. Matta recruiting has also dropped the talent and the quality. Check out his last two recruits. His health is a major concern not saying CTC is the answer but I wouldnt swap coaches right now
The only reason not to make that trade is doubts about Mattas health. If you went solely by coaching ability you have to choose Matta

We talk about Matta slipping like we haven't finished 9th, 7th and 5th in three out of the last five years. Yes we had our ups but we've also crapped the bed too.

Mattas last 3-4yrs look like many of TC years throughout his career. Its really amazing. I have never seen a coach that has the ability to wipe the majority of his career from his fans memory. TC is a magician.
 
Ok...what is a "fatalist"? I have never heard that used in conjunction with IU basketball before.

That's an especially good question, considering a fatalist, i.e. one who believes strongly in fate, would never ascribe any particular result to bad luck. I suspect that poster made an error in word choice...
 
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That's an especially good question, considering a fatalist, i.e. one who believes strongly in fate, would never ascribe any particular result to bad luck. I suspect that poster made an error in word choice...
Thank you. I appreciate your take on the meaning of the word. One of the things about being an "old-timer" is that words that all of your life have a clear meaning, sometimes warp into new, and sometimes opposite meanings from what you have become familiar with. So, I ask when a word seems not to fit the context in which it is being used.
 
Great my point on Coach Matta is even though he is a great coach the last 4 years would not be acceptable on this board and they will be nothing special next year. Some of the things that people complain about are happening there right now.How about the meltdown at IU last year happened on more than once. Number two player turnover 4 players left there were also player suspensions. Questionable recruiting with bringing in Lyles. Some on this would crucified CTC for bringing him in to IU.Im just saying a 5 year period is a long time.The last thought is yes he has been to final fours but the reason he made it was because of Oden and Conley. I personally dont believe that but some on this board say the only reason CTC made it was because of Wade. And yes Hondo you wouldnt be happy with last 4 years and this coming year at OSU your talking out of both sides of your mouth.

corrections:

  • Matta didn't go to both FFs with Oden
  • IU fan could have stomached years 6 and 7 if a FF and E8 had proceeded them
  • 4 players left there but 4 players leave our team almost every year

sure you are a good dude but you aren't every good at this. matta went on deep runs just 3 years ago. sure, they'll be lulls. our next lull just means the CBI. :)
 
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corrections:

  • Matta didn't go to both FFs with Oden
  • IU fan could have stomached years 6 and 7 if a FF and E8 had proceeded them
  • 4 players left there but 4 players leave our team almost every year

sure you are a good dude but you aren't every good at this. matta went on deep runs just 3 years ago. sure, they'll be lulls. our next lull just means the CBI. :)
Being a little dramatic aren't you because we don't have 4 players transfer every year.
 
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