These attacks on Harvard are over the top.
Who the hell defends this?
- Thread starter Aloha Hoosier
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Your party of "small government", ladies and gentlemen.
I share much of Trump's view about Harvard and most other institutions like it.
That said, this kind of stuff is comically over-the-line and outside of government's lane.
I share much of Trump's view about Harvard and most other institutions like it.
- I'm a full-throated supporter of the Supreme Court knocking down race-based college admissions.
- I think DEI, as generally understood and manifested, should die a quick and complete death.
- I think we need to do a complete rethink of higher education funding -- in a way that colleges and universities are going to hate.
- Along those lines, I think people should be responsible for their own student loan balances.
- Our elite institutions seem to be absolutely drenched in anti-semitism. I'm 100% for free speech. But would the universities ever allow themselves to become cesspools of anti-black racism?
- I think colleges and universities should rid themselves of all of their advocacy endeavors and return to their roots as institutions of essential learning, discovery, research, etc. To do otherwise is to do the nation a massive disservice in terms of our economic competitiveness.
....and I could go on.
That said, this kind of stuff is comically over-the-line and outside of government's lane.
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FAFO. Keep defying federal law, executive orders, and SCOTUS rulings and this is what happens.
Maybe. I honestly don't know where stuff like this will land, but if I'm forced to pick a side here, I'm going to say that Harvard's lawyers are going to run circles around the Trump administration and Kristi "I think habeas corpus is the opposite of what it actually is" Noem.
Ha...your meme is interesting way to say what that line actually is cleanly.What an ironic thing to say in defense of the Trump administration.
That quote is taken verbatim from the edited version shown on TV and airline flights. And it's generally viewed as having been brilliantly done tongue-in-cheek.
Huh, this is a lot:
Harvard enrolled nearly 6,800 international students in the 2024-2025 school year, amounting to 27% of its total enrollment, according to university statistics.
Harvard enrolled nearly 6,800 international students in the 2024-2025 school year, amounting to 27% of its total enrollment, according to university statistics.
I'm guessing it will be deemed unlawful due to it being applied to a single institution.
maybe. probably depends on the terms of the visa as it relates to revocation and any allegations that can be proven re violation of same
I wonder if some of the explanation of that is the same as why IU and Purdue love international students: they pay full freight. I have no idea, because I don't have any knowledge about what the typical domestic student would pay at Harvard vs. an international student.
It could also be that they're genuinely trying to accommodate the best the world has to offer. Harvard's a different beast than IU or Purdue. But I'd be less sure of that today than I would've been 20 years ago.
But, like you, I'm struck by that figure. That is a lot.
it's the case at wash u. full freight
or overbroad in applying to all students w/o a student by student review - without knowing anything about that stuff and what requirements a university has to show to enroll international students
I don't know. Maybe. I wouldn't even hazard a guess -- although it certainly feels all kinds of wrong.
The admin's argument would probably be that other institutions complied to rules that applied across the board....while Harvard didn't.
The headline is wrong.
The government revoked Harvard’s SEVP certification. That certification allows for visas to individuals for no purpose except to attend school. As you might expect, the certification has requirements including reporting requirements about the students so allowed in country. As you might also expect, Harvard F’ed around with those requirements, so, no more SEVP program. Harvard will sue and we will see if Harvard was in compliance.
This doesn’t affect foreign students who are in country for other reasons.
Huh. The certifications are given to the individual institutions. You’d think that any institution would willingly comply with the requirements, but no, Harvard had to F around.
In your view, what is the Trump Administration's end game here -- other than just tormenting an institution like, well, like Harvard?
Don't get me wrong. As I said above, I have plenty of gripes about Harvard and all the others like them. I think they'd be very well-served to make some fundamental reforms. But I also realize that I'm saying that as an outsider.
Despite all the noise emanating from our elite campuses, there's still an awful lot of signal coming from them as well....especially in the way of critical research (and I realize that not everything called "research" is actually critical...even if those doing the BS kinds of "research" would go apeshit to hear that).
That's enough. Buck Trump and the weight of the US government will come down on your head. Message sent.
What, they allowed freedom of speech? I thought you were a big advocate, would telling Palestinian protestors they were not allowed to protest be free speech?
Harvard University Loses Student and Exchange Visitor Program Certification for Pro-Terrorist Conduct | Homeland Security
Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem ordered DHS to terminate the Harvard University’s Student and Exchange Visitor Program (SEVP) certification.
There may have been antisemitism involved. But I also don't doubt that all these same campuses have anti-Islamic sentiments expressed. But that isn't mentioned anywhere. Do you believe there are no instances of anti-Islamic behavior at any college in America? Have you heard of a single university being scrutinized for it?
There was more at play than just allowing Palestinian protestor to have a protest on campus.What, they allowed freedom of speech? I thought you were a big advocate, would telling Palestinian protestors they were not allowed to protest be free speech?
Harvard University Loses Student and Exchange Visitor Program Certification for Pro-Terrorist Conduct | Homeland Security
Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem ordered DHS to terminate the Harvard University’s Student and Exchange Visitor Program (SEVP) certification.www.dhs.gov
There may have been antisemitism involved. But I also don't doubt that all these same campuses have anti-Islamic sentiments expressed. But that isn't mentioned anywhere. Do you believe there are no instances of anti-Islamic behavior at any college in America? Have you heard of a single university being scrutinized for it?
Presidential Task Force on Combating Antisemitism and Anti-Israeli Bias - Harvard University
Announcement of Presidential Task Forces
www.harvard.edu
Yes, many universities keep a careful eye on anti-Muslim sentiment and it is mentioned--e.g. Harvard.
Presidential Task Force on Combating Anti-Muslim, Anti-Arab, and Anti-Palestinian Bias - Harvard University
Announcement of Presidential Task Forces
www.harvard.edu
I don't know enough about the details to "defend it" but here's a brief article that seems to touch on some of the reasons behind it...
Trump administration terminates Harvard's student visa program
The Department of Homeland Security revokes Harvard's student visa program due to protests and refusal to hand over records, forcing foreign students to transfer or lose legal status in the U.S.
and another -
Trump admin yanks Harvard’s international student program, kicking out thousands in latest escalation
It’s a severe consequence for what DHS claims is Harvard’s refusal to comply with its requests for behavioral records of student visa holders.
nypost.com
What, they allowed freedom of speech? I thought you were a big advocate, would telling Palestinian protestors they were not allowed to protest be free speech?
Harvard University Loses Student and Exchange Visitor Program Certification for Pro-Terrorist Conduct | Homeland Security
Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem ordered DHS to terminate the Harvard University’s Student and Exchange Visitor Program (SEVP) certification.
There may have been antisemitism involved. But I also don't doubt that all these same campuses have anti-Islamic sentiments expressed. But that isn't mentioned anywhere. Do you believe there are no instances of anti-Islamic behavior at any college in America? Have you heard of a single university being scrutinized for it?
I think people should be able to hold and express whatever opinion they want about whatever subject they want.
That freedom doesn't necessarily imply there will be no consequences from their speech. But those consequences cannot emanate from the state. And, really, I think it would be better if we kept some kind of check on our own private responses to speech we detest.
As I said above, expressing ideas of anti-Semitism is absolutely protected speech. But it does seem to have become a disturbingly common thing at our college campuses. Not all criticisms of Israel and/or Israeli policy are derived from anti-Semitism. Anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism are two different things. But there's still no shortage of overlap there.
And how do we think college administrators would handle it if, rather than anti-semitic thought, it was anti-black Racism? Could they honestly say that they'd kid-glove it the way they have this?
If so, then I'm an ally of their claim to protection of free speech. If you're consistent with that -- rather than selective -- then I'm for it. But I'm just not really all that sure that they would be.
The claim is Harvard didn’t comply with the SEVP requirements. I can’t comment on how valid the claim is.What, they allowed freedom of speech? I thought you were a big advocate, would telling Palestinian protestors they were not allowed to protest be free speech?
Harvard University Loses Student and Exchange Visitor Program Certification for Pro-Terrorist Conduct | Homeland Security
Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem ordered DHS to terminate the Harvard University’s Student and Exchange Visitor Program (SEVP) certification.
There may have been antisemitism involved. But I also don't doubt that all these same campuses have anti-Islamic sentiments expressed. But that isn't mentioned anywhere. Do you believe there are no instances of anti-Islamic behavior at any college in America? Have you heard of a single university being scrutinized for it?
Enforcing the law is part of Trumps job description.
You touch on the problem so e, including Trump, get into. Being critical if Israel is NOT antisemitism.
As far as I am concerned, the KKK has a right to march. And counter protests also have a right. Schools typically have conduct rules that these protesters would have to abide by. So antisemitic and anti-Black protesters would equally have to thread that line. So would anti gay, anti Christian, anti whatever.
Brad linked the reports, they investigated anti Islamic and anti Semitic. It seems it did its job.
Well, our economy used to be the envy of the world and now that’s no longer true. Our democracy used to be the envy of the world and now that’s quickly dying. Our universities are the envy of the world, so I guess that’s next for the Trump administration to destroy.
Cracks are emerging in the idea of America’s economic exceptionalism
The U.S. economy and equity markets may be underperforming this year due to a surge in policy uncertainty, a decline in consumer sentiments, a delay in business investment, and a gradual weakening …
thehill.com
‘In a real sense, US democracy has died’: how Trump is emulating Hungary’s Orbán
Trump has moved to gut the federal government, fire critics and reward allies – a path similar to ‘would-be dictators’ like Orbán, experts say
America’s Coming Brain Drain
Trump’s war on universities could kill U.S. innovation.
Do you have a link to support your notion that our economy is no longer the envy of the world?Well, our economy used to be the envy of the world and now that’s no longer true. Our democracy used to be the envy of the world and now that’s quickly dying. Our universities are the envy of the world, so I guess that’s next for the Trump administration to destroy.
Cracks are emerging in the idea of America’s economic exceptionalism
The U.S. economy and equity markets may be underperforming this year due to a surge in policy uncertainty, a decline in consumer sentiments, a delay in business investment, and a gradual weakening …thehill.com‘In a real sense, US democracy has died’: how Trump is emulating Hungary’s Orbán
Trump has moved to gut the federal government, fire critics and reward allies – a path similar to ‘would-be dictators’ like Orbán, experts saywww.theguardian.com
America’s Coming Brain Drain
Trump’s war on universities could kill U.S. innovation.www.foreignaffairs.com
have a citation for your economy take? what are your feelings about democracy and the cover up of biden's mental decline?Well, our economy used to be the envy of the world and now that’s no longer true. Our democracy used to be the envy of the world and now that’s quickly dying. Our universities are the envy of the world, so I guess that’s next for the Trump administration to destroy.
Cracks are emerging in the idea of America’s economic exceptionalism
The U.S. economy and equity markets may be underperforming this year due to a surge in policy uncertainty, a decline in consumer sentiments, a delay in business investment, and a gradual weakening …thehill.com‘In a real sense, US democracy has died’: how Trump is emulating Hungary’s Orbán
Trump has moved to gut the federal government, fire critics and reward allies – a path similar to ‘would-be dictators’ like Orbán, experts sayAmerica’s Coming Brain Drain
Trump’s war on universities could kill U.S. innovation.
Hmm, so are you saying it's your belief that universities already do and always would treat anti-Semitic speech the same way they would anti-Black speech?
I'm not sure about that. If you're right, then that's a good thing -- even if both kinds of speech are deplorable.
As for the distinction between anti-Zionism (or even criticism of Israel that isn't necessarily anti-Zionist) and anti-Semitism, that seems like it could get murky.
There are people defending the guy who killed the Jewish couple in DC -- calling it "resistance", etc. Was he even aware that they worked at the Israeli Embassy? Or did he just pick them at random? I don't know. But I've seen some claim that it was random. If so, which side of the divide do his actions fall on? And what of those who are defending him?
The claims about the impending doom of American democracy are so tiresome.
If our politicians weren't deathly afraid of what voters were going to do to them, maybe they might actually be able to fix the fiscal mess they've created. Instead, they seem capable of only continuing to make it worse....whoever is in power.
Guess why.
I think the Netanyahu government is perpetrating atrocities and committing war crimes in Gaza. Does that make me antisemitic? How murky does it need to be before they come after me?
I do not know if they treat both the same. It should be the same. For example, accusing South Africa of genocide is a lie but is not racist.
People love their shock terminology these days. It's like Orwell's quote about fascism having lost all its meaning -- which I thought was brilliant.
I don't know how much it really matters, though. Whether it qualifies as a genocide or not, South Africa should do more than it's done to keep farmers (most of whom are white, obviously) from being murdered. I don't know how much that's driven by race or property. But when they start talking about expropriating peoples' property, it should come as no surprise that some might take that as an invitation to get out ahead of the curve.
Okay, that's antisemitic. Now, should she be arrested? Refused admission to Harvard? Expelled from Harvard? If so, for what reason?
Knowing what you know about me, do you think I believe she should be arrested? Come on.
As for the other questions, thus my thought exercise about what the Harvards of the world would do if it was some kind of Klanny dude.
I don’t really hold an opinion on what they should do about that. That’s up to them. I would just say that, if they aren’t consistent about it, then it’s fair to charge them with favoring some odious views over other odious views.
And if that’s a fair charge (and it would be), then what is also fair to deduce about them?
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