What’s it gonna take to change our losing culture?

[welshman#]

Yeah people forget this. I hate the buyout as much as anyone. What would people have thought of Dolson if we had a great year, had national coach of year and that that coach left because we didn't pony up the money to keep him. I do believe there were schools that came calling after Allen's Coach of the Year campaign. What would people have said about our "commitment to football" if he doesn't pay to extend coach that is national coach of year and has just completed the 2 best years of IU football in a generation? I was never a huge Tom Allen fan but I would have never imagined that we would drop so far so fast. The big error is that we didn't realize the success was because of DeBoer and Wommack and not Allen

People forget Allen’s previous (2019) contract, which 1) made the 2021 extension legally mandatory and 2) included a buyout that the buyout in the 2021 extension was modeled after. The 2021 extension made the buyout more expensive by reversing its terms.

 

[kraft cheese+macaroni]

IU has one of the worst inherent recruiting bases in the country of major schools, and inherent recruiting base over the decades matters.

and the worse the inherent recruiting base, the less chance you have to recruit successfully outside the base.

absolutely nothing the administration can do about that.

attendance is the one thing the administration does have control over.

they are totally apathetic to do anything about attendance other than hope for a miracle as their primary and only strategy..

a full stadium is ten times more important to recruits than locker or weight rooms or any facilities, and the one thing the administration flat refuses to invest so much as a cent in.

You're pretty in tune with what recruits want huh? Full stadiums over NIL too I bet?

What about stadiums that are only full for about half of the game, even when it's competitive or we're winning comfortably?

 

[i'vegotwinners]

"God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference".
-------------------------------------------------------------------

those thinking IU can just outspend schools that have more money than we do are beyond delusional.

those thinking someone without deep IU ties will stay long term if successful, are beyond delusional.

those who are happy with a couple yrs of success before said coach leaves and we are back to square one, i have absolutely zero time for, as i'm a long hauler.

how's that "changing coaches" thing been working out???

when we get someone with good character and IU ties, as we have now, we need to help him be successful, not go looking for a miracle in one of the worst home recruiting bases in the country with terrible attendance.

there are a lot of things IU has no control over.

attendance is one thing we do have control over, and attendance, thus game atmosphere, means a lot more to recruits than facilities. (which are already excellent from the stadium on down).

but attendance requires investment, and is an investment, just as much as anything else, which is a reality totally lost on the administration.

let's start by fixing what we actually have control over, and work out from there.

 

[Jackskip23]

"God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference".
-------------------------------------------------------------------

those thinking IU can just outspend schools that have more money than we do are beyond delusional.

those thinking someone without deep IU ties will stay long term if successful, are beyond delusional.

those who are happy with a couple yrs of success before said coach leaves and we are back to square one, i have absolutely zero time for, as i'm a long hauler.

how's that "changing coaches" thing been working out???

when we get someone with good character and IU ties, as we have now, we need to help him be successful, not go looking for a miracle in one of the worst home recruiting bases in the country with terrible attendance.

there are a lot of things IU has no control over.

attendance is one thing we do have control over, and attendance, thus game atmosphere, means a lot more to recruits than facilities. (which are already excellent from the stadium on down).

but attendance requires investment, and is an investment, just as much as anything else, which is a reality totally lost on the administration.

let's start by fixing what we actually have control over, and work out from there.

As with your views on ticket prices, you have zero idea what you’re talking about concerning facilities and / or what’s important to recruits. It’s gibberish.

 

[Kelly_32]

A thought just hit me...I'm a little slow...

Giving Allen that contract, at that point in time, is the type of investment many of us are clamoring for, right now. He was the NCOY. It was reported he was being courted by other schools. There weren't many people, at the time, that weren't happy and impressed with how we "stepped up".

The problems began very soon after, when we didn't continue to "step up". I think a large part of that problem is Allen. And I think Dolson probably knows that. What's the addage..."You don't throw money at a dead situation?"...something like that. Anyway, our play basically immediately declined. Coordinators left, players left. Dolson wasn't happy with Allen, or his management of the program. But it was too soon to move on him, at that point. I think a couple years down the road, with the continued sub par performance everyone has seen...and the mindset should be different.

Dolson needs to figure out how to convince IU admin to raise the budget for the entire football coaching staff. Part of that convincing needs to be absorbing Allen's contract...and letting him go at the end of this season.

With that increased money...go get someone like James Madison's coach as the HC (for similar money to what Allen makes). Then scour high major football and the NFL for bright young minds to fill your coordinator and downline assistant staff. Tell the new coach he will have a lot of input on the staff, but not complete control over it.

This would actually be a similar "step up" to what IU showed when they gave Allen his last contract. Other things would need to be done, but this would be a bold step in the right direction. They've been bold before, they need to do it again.

You’re assuming Dolson actually gives a shit about the football program. I’d argue that he doesn’t.

 

[Jackskip23]

You’re assuming Dolson actually gives a shit about the football program. I’d argue that he doesn’t.

I think he cares, but I don’t think he as the expertise to know how to make a substantive difference, nor do I think he has the sort of upward support to make the requisite moves that will produce a sustainably successful program.

 

[82hoosier]

Really? Is the band that bad?

You can check out the band performances on YouTube and then make your own decision.

 

[E.Z.Rider]

We saw this in living color when a Trustee intervened and made our AD fire Tom Crean, an action the AD had not wanted to take.

I find this hard to believe. Please give us some proof.

 

[82hoosier]

I think he cares, but I don’t think he as the expertise to know how to make a substantive difference, nor do I think he has the sort of upward support to make the requisite moves that will produce a sustainably successful program.

In Scott Dolson's defense it was very easy to get sucked in by the Hoosiers performance in the covid season. Only conference games and the Hoosiers went 6-1.

Lost in that success was the fact that the Hoosiers did not beat a team with a winning record. And then you had the quirky schedules where Ohio State only played five games and Rutgers played nine.

But the biggest deal was Tom Allen being voted coach of the year. If I had a vote I would have voted him Coach of the Year too. And I would have made that vote with absolutely no thought. Coach of the year award could have also been called the feel-good story of the Year award.

Speaking of which does anybody remember Joe Dudek finishing 9th in the Heisman trophy voting back in the 1980s?

 

[IUNorth]

Cignetti (current JMU coach) is 62. He took over the program from Mike Houston, who went 37-6 with one natl championship and one runner-upfinish. Houston is 51 and currently trying to rebuild East Carolina.

Oh yeah...too old. Was just an example of an active coach, that has had more than a couple years of success at a smaller school.

 

[Jackskip23]

I find this hard to believe. Please give us some proof.

If you know the Trustee, he’s shared it with more than a few people, as have a number of basketball alums.

 

[82hoosier]

Oh yeah...too old. Was just an example of an active coach, that has had more than a couple years of success at a smaller school.

I'll take retired Kansas State coach Bill Snyder who is 84 years young.

 

[welshman#]

Oh yeah...too old. Was just an example of an active coach, that has had more than a couple years of success at a smaller school.

Ironically, I believe he has already coached at Indiana University.

The other one, in Pennsylvania.

 

[vesuvius13]

bingo.

IU has literally priced out 80% of the area fanbase, and not just families of 8, but families from 2 to 4 to 8.

IU is literally swimming in money, and the points system along with the fan base's desire for points to apply to basketball tickets gives it unique protection from cannibalizing it's loyal base of points earning fans.

IU could give every IU student free admission to every game for considerably less than the extra $1 mil a yr they just gifted CMW, and those that think free admission for IU students wouldn't bring more students in, or that we don't need more IU students to attend, at flat idiots.

bring back a $1 knothole club for kids through HS in a general admission area, and offer adults a $10 option in a general admission area.

with parking and concessions, it adds up, and would be no worse than revenue neutral.

no points for said promo GA seating, and no guarantees of a seat once demand exceeds supply.

$50 per game after parking and/or concessions from a family we're now getting zero from is a win.

when "winning brings the fans", such promos can be cut off, just as they were back during the original knot hole club.

there are lot of fans in south central Indiana who would love to attend, and flat can't afford the exorbitant prices aimed at the 10%.

and want to attend for the games, not just the social event.

in any other business, having the unsold capacity IU does on a constant basis would mean those in charge of sales would have been terminated a long time ago.

You are right about the pricing being out of touch for people and Dolson needs to figure that out. Lower general admission, have a general admission area in the stands, and see more fans coming to the game. Recognize the hole many are in that want to watch the Hoosiers but can't afford parking and admissions.

 

[BayernFan]

Lots of money to pay players and coaches. Hiring coaches who know how to coach winning football, regardless of their personalities and history. Ditch the "student athlete" model and adopt a "School of Football" model. Academics is not a priority.

 

[mrhighlife]

Winning and doing it very consistently is the only way. IU has literally never won consistently.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

You are right about the pricing being out of touch for people and Dolson needs to figure that out. Lower general admission, have a general admission area in the stands, and see more fans coming to the game. Recognize the hole many are in that want to watch the Hoosiers but can't afford parking and admissions.

Purdue has discounted tickets heavily for most games and have sold well. The last email offer is for a IU Ahia combo at lesser discount.

We need to do more of that

 

[vesuvius13]

Winning and doing it very consistently is the only way. IU has literally never won consistently.

They did with Mallory but the school didn't support him either and when things started declining the school's answer was for Mallory to fire a couple of his coaches; clearly they didn't know football or coach Mallory.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

You’re assuming Dolson actually gives a shit about the football program. I’d argue that he doesn’t.

Unless he spends a lot of time and effort pretending, Scott would like nothing more than to create a sound and competitive program.

The culture just isn’t there yet.

Games are a social event. Decades of losing has created this. We all want to win but the resolve to do what is necessary is still lacking.

Finish the stadium, build the suites, replace Mellencamp, hire a serious coach and raise NIL levels.

Do this before the BIGGER revenue is restructured.

 

[kraft cheese+macaroni]

You’re assuming Dolson actually gives a shit about the football program. I’d argue that he doesn’t.

D
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[Courtsensetwo]

D
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Actually your response was more apprpriate than mine.

 

[Palmbeachhoosier]

You're pretty in tune with what recruits want huh? Full stadiums over NIL too I bet?

What about stadiums that are only full for about half of the game, even when it's competitive or we're winning comfortably?

During Miami's heyday I remember sitting in the Orange Bowl and it being half empty. They were on the verge of shutting down the program. Then Howard Schnellenberger had his assistant coaches calling recruits on pay phones since their phones in their offices were shut off. He was able to keep some Dade county kids home. Not sure how. Stadium was old and filthy. No Facilities. Campus miles away from campus . Very little fan support. Yes it was 30 years ago. It was before the arms race. No NIL money. I

 

[i'vegotwinners]

Winning and doing it very consistently is the only way. IU has literally never won consistently.

how many schools with terrible home recruiting bases have won consistently over time.

not many to none.

Iowa has over achieved but has a better home recruiting base than we do.

Purdue has over achieved some but hardly set the world on fire, and when they have done well, have done so because of great QBs, which PU can compete with anyone on over the yrs.

every yr there's some "have not" somewhere who has a great yr, and everyone here goes "look at them, why isn't that us", but it's usually an anomaly.

far more than basketball, football depends on a strong inherent home recruiting base, which then allows it to pull in good recruits from outside said base.

when ticket prices are ridiculously sky high, it puts a lot more pressure on winning, and just enjoying a day in Btown and seeing B10 football is much harder when that day costs what was a mortgage payment not that long ago.

when you don't have good crowds, already challenging recruiting becomes a lot harder.

IU is literally swimming in money beyond their wildest dreams.

most other business on earth discount to sell excess capacity, with the discount adjusted to what does it take to sell that excess capacity..

beyond ridiculous to make absolutely zero effort to fill the stadium on even gorgeous weather days..

attendance is the one thing the administration absolutely can control, and a full stadium would absolutely help the coaches recruit, who have a tough enough time of it any way.

 

[ElMeson]

During Miami's heyday I remember sitting in the Orange Bowl and it being half empty. They were on the verge of shutting down the program. Then Howard Schnellenberger had his assistant coaches calling recruits on pay phones since their phones in their offices were shut off. He was able to keep some Dade county kids home. Not sure how. Stadium was old and filthy. No Facilities. Campus miles away from campus . Very little fan support. Yes it was 30 years ago. It was before the arms race. No NIL money. I

I don’t mean to date you but it’s more like 40 years ago but your point remains the same.

 

[82hoosier]

how many schools with terrible home recruiting bases have won consistently over time.

not many to none.

Iowa has over achieved but has a better home recruiting base than we do.

Purdue has over achieved some but hardly set the world on fire, and when they have done well, have done so because of great QBs, which PU can compete with anyone on over the yrs.

every yr there's some "have not" somewhere who has a great yr, and everyone here goes "look at them, why isn't that us", but it's usually an anomaly.

far more than basketball, football depends on a strong inherent home recruiting base, which then allows it to pull in good recruits from outside said base.

when ticket prices are ridiculously sky high, it puts a lot more pressure on winning, and just enjoying a day in Btown and seeing B10 football is much harder when that day costs what was a mortgage payment not that long ago.

when you don't have good crowds, already challenging recruiting becomes a lot harder.

IU is literally swimming in money beyond their wildest dreams.

most other business on earth discount to sell excess capacity, with the discount adjusted to what does it take to sell that excess capacity..

beyond ridiculous to make absolutely zero effort to fill the stadium on even gorgeous weather days..

attendance is the one thing the administration absolutely can control, and a full stadium would absolutely help the coaches recruit, who have a tough enough time of it any way.

Perhaps the University plans to make it up on parking fees.

Louisville is undefeated. Kentucky has beaten Florida 3 years in a row. Cincinnati has been a top 10 team. Please don't tell me that Indiana was once ranked 7th to the country. TCU made it to the championship game.

 

[kmathum]

how many schools with terrible home recruiting bases have won consistently over time.

not many to none.

Iowa has over achieved but has a better home recruiting base than we do.

Purdue has over achieved some but hardly set the world on fire, and when they have done well, have done so because of great QBs, which PU can compete with anyone on over the yrs.

every yr there's some "have not" somewhere who has a great yr, and everyone here goes "look at them, why isn't that us", but it's usually an anomaly.

far more than basketball, football depends on a strong inherent home recruiting base, which then allows it to pull in good recruits from outside said base.

when ticket prices are ridiculously sky high, it puts a lot more pressure on winning, and just enjoying a day in Btown and seeing B10 football is much harder when that day costs what was a mortgage payment not that long ago.

when you don't have good crowds, already challenging recruiting becomes a lot harder.

IU is literally swimming in money beyond their wildest dreams.

most other business on earth discount to sell excess capacity, with the discount adjusted to what does it take to sell that excess capacity..

beyond ridiculous to make absolutely zero effort to fill the stadium on even gorgeous weather days..

attendance is the one thing the administration absolutely can control, and a full stadium would absolutely help the coaches recruit, who have a tough enough time of it any way.

I think you just named two. It can be done. If the will is there.

 

[kraft cheese+macaroni]

Perhaps the University plans to make it up on parking fees.

Louisville is undefeated. Kentucky has beaten Florida 3 years in a row. Cincinnati has been a top 10 team. Please don't tell me that Indiana was once ranked 7th to the country. TCU made it to the championship game.

Indiana was recently ranked seventh in the country

 

[twenty02]

bingo.

IU has literally priced out 80% of the area fanbase, and not just families of 8, but families from 2 to 4 to 8.

IU is literally swimming in money, and the points system along with the fan base's desire for points to apply to basketball tickets gives it unique protection from cannibalizing it's loyal base of points earning fans.

IU could give every IU student free admission to every game for considerably less than the extra $1 mil a yr they just gifted CMW, and those that think free admission for IU students wouldn't bring more students in, or that we don't need more IU students to attend, at flat idiots.

bring back a $1 knothole club for kids through HS in a general admission area, and offer adults a $10 option in a general admission area.

with parking and concessions, it adds up, and would be no worse than revenue neutral.

no points for said promo GA seating, and no guarantees of a seat once demand exceeds supply.

$50 per game after parking and/or concessions from a family we're now getting zero from is a win.

when "winning brings the fans", such promos can be cut off, just as they were back during the original knot hole club.

there are lot of fans in south central Indiana who would love to attend, and flat can't afford the exorbitant prices aimed at the 10%.

and want to attend for the games, not just the social event.

in any other business, having the unsold capacity IU does on a constant basis would mean those in charge of sales would have been terminated a long time ago.

I'm fine with this idea.... like the idea of letting kids in for basically free, etc. But hell you can buy tickets for $25 as it is now via Stubhub for decent seats for upcoming games (and probably cheaper closer to the game day).

So I would not describe it as exorbitant pricing. But yeah, the market value of seats is probably closer to $0, considering how many empty seats there are.

 

[82hoosier]

Indiana was recently ranked seventh in the country

By the same people that awarded him Coach of the Year. 9 months later after the Iowa game was clear to everyone that this was something done with smoke and mirrors. The Hoosiers had one of their best recruiting classes and every player was rewarded with an additional year of eligibility and they went on to lose every conference game.

 

[Palmbeachhoosier]

I don’t mean to date you but it’s more like 40 years ago but your point remains the same.

True, I guess the run lasted into the 90's but began in the early 80's.

 

[Kelly_32]

D
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What’s he doing to raise NIL money for the football program? What’s currently being done to replace Mellencamp? How many Power 5 football programs force the head coach to pay the buyout of a fired assistant coach?

 

[IUCrazy2]

IU could give every IU student free admission to every game for considerably less than the extra $1 mil a yr they just gifted CMW, and those that think free admission for IU students wouldn't bring more students in, or that we don't need more IU students to attend, at flat idiots.

You know they have done this before (at least to some degree) right? When I was a freshman (way, way back in the late 90's) we all got a ticket to every home game. We had a season pretty comparable to the one we are having now (which was preceded by some pretty bad seasons) and by and large students still didn't go.

The best money you could spend to improve attendance would be on the coaching staff and facilities to attract the coaches and players you need to win.

 

[kraft cheese+macaroni]

By the same people that awarded him Coach of the Year. 9 months later after the Iowa game was clear to everyone that this was something done with smoke and mirrors. The Hoosiers had one of their best recruiting classes and every player was rewarded with an additional year of eligibility and they went on to lose every conference game.

https://yourimageshare.com/ib/0xBxaRdUiJ

TCU is 3-3 with losses to Coach Prime, Iowa State and Houston. Talk about smoke and mirrors.

UC is 2-3, but they did beat Eastern Kentucky 66-13, so there’s that. Lost to Miami for the first time in 17 years.

 

[Jackskip23]

True, I guess the run lasted into the 90's but began in the early 80's.

Your post underscores the fact that success is about leadership. HS oozed it, as did a couple of his successors. Until we have it, we’ll never be a sustained winner.

 

[kraft cheese+macaroni]

What’s he doing to raise NIL money for the football program? What’s currently being done to replace Mellencamp? How many Power 5 football programs force the head coach to pay the buyout of a fired assistant coach?

He can’t raise money for NIL in the current landscape.

Your initial statement was just flat out dumbassery.

 

[td75]

NIL is going to be a tremendous hurdle for this program to overcome. Mark Stoops recently told Kentucky fans to "pony up" if they want to beat Georgia, Bama, etc.

For Stoops to publicly comment like that is telling. Kentucky has far superior football support than anything Indiana can cobble together.

It's a landscape where you are buying a team. Stoops said that Georgia bought some very good players...They need to call it what it is; semi-professional sports.

 

[TR32]

Answer to OP: it will take about $150 million more dollars a year in the budget, or, it will take something like a Big Ten draft to get Indiana better players.

 

[Jackskip23]

Answer to OP: it will take about $150 million more dollars a year in the budget, or, it will take something like a Big Ten draft to get Indiana better players.

First, the draft stuff is unrealistic nonsense. Second, how would you spend $150M?

 

[HoosierAlum07]

The question should be…How can IU start recruiting top 4-5star talent? Or top 5 talent in every position!? Everything from top to bottom needs to change to start with! From recruiter/coaches, to boosters/ administrators, to psychiatrists/tutors, etc. No good recruit wants to go to a losing program! Losing is a staple at IU! So, unless every top recruit is offered over $1mil, nothing will ever change! So, it’s safe to say, we will never see change at IU and I will probably be dead by the time they can even sniff a chance at a bowl game!

 

[Jackskip23]

The question should be…How can IU start recruiting top 4-5star talent? Or top 5 talent in every position!? Everything from top to bottom needs to change to start with! From recruiter/coaches, to boosters/ administrators, to psychiatrists/tutors, etc. No good recruit wants to go to a losing program! Losing is a staple at IU! So, unless every top recruit is offered over $1mil, nothing will ever change! So, it’s safe to say, we will never see change at IU and I will probably be dead by the time they can even sniff a chance at a bowl game!

Ask Rick George how he feels about that. Or Travis Goff. Or Pat Richter. Or even Morgan Burke or Mitch Barnhart.plenty of examples of programs built by leaders who knew what to do and then executed.