Ha! I remember those days, and the dorks using the chads from the punch cards as confetti at football games. Took days to pick all of it out of your hair.
Well, I might have to support Bernie again this year
- Thread starter TheOriginalHappyGoat
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Honest guess is not a single one is paying for it themselves. I can only count a handful that have had part time jobs while at school. But, I honestly can’t think of any that didn’t really belong there. Most have jobs even before they graduate waiting for them. For the most part, they play pretty hard, but study hard too. And, keep in mind, the huge majority of my girls come from extremely affluent backgrounds, so they have had all the advantages growing up, including private schools and tutors if necessary.
Wellllll . . . I'm inclined to agree more with CO on this one, Marv. Learning "the law" and how to practice it are two different things. Think of the law as a language . . . you learn the rules of syntax and the content of words, phrases and idioms, which become tools for your use. How you use those tools to fashion communications can lead one to be a poet, lyricist, novelist, journalist, teacher, parent, physician, philosopher, theologian or any other number of imaginative or creative things . . . or you can become a rote repeater of others' thoughts, bully or a gossip . . . or you might not learn any of the tools sufficiently to put them to good use and become a prolific liar because you don't know any better and you just want what you want.
The law is much the same way. Concepts captured in the law as statutes or case law precedent provide practitioners with tools to apply creatively to the facts that their clients' cases present to them. Lawyers who learn to use the law with horizontal (lateral) creativity can be highly effective contributors in their community (and very successful financially as well). Those few who master the tools of the law to use them both with horizontal and vertical creativity can move nations.
Maybe. It might make sense if all things are "perfect", as in the system is able to sort through all of the complications that human beings present in an educational context . . . such as very bright people who have trouble reading because of dyslexia or different learning styles. Of course, the educational system might be set up to accommodate all of that as students get into their "tracks" . . .
. . . and provide places tailored to different learning styles, like Tusculum University, which is designed for students who learn best in a series of short (perhaps 2 weeks), but immersive, single classes during a semester.
I don't think such things as dress, office decor, or even rules about conduct stifle individual creativity at all. In fact, those things might help an individual and creative mind in the sense that individuality is focused on things that matter instead of accoutrements.
The kind of creativity I think excels in the legal profession is that which goes on between your ears in terms of ideas and communicating them, not that which goes on in choosing what color neck tie to wear.
Who is going to keep the corruption out of the system? In a perfect world with a great university like Indiana that would likely be true but what about at places like Trump University? How do you prevent them from lining up at the pit of free government money to sell worthless degrees to the public?
Yeah I don’t like that kids have to pick their career path super early either. And you’re so right, some of the brightest kids I had were never really good test takers. It’s tricky. I think we can do better, but not sure how to get there.
Aloha I agree that this is a bad policy. However, previous generations comparing their college expense to more recent generations is apples to oranges. I’m a mid 40s attorney and will be paying off my loans in less than 2 years. I’ve been paying for almost 20 years.
The boomers I use to work with paid for law school with summer jobs or worked a part time gig and went to IU Indy law. That would not have been feasible for me and it is certainly not possible for today’s kids who enter law school with 6 figures in UNDERGRAD debt before grad school. There was no undergrad expense like this when you went to college. The costs have risen astronomically.
While I don’t support free college or debt forgiveness, we do need to appreciate that college expense is not sustainable except for those with rich parents. Referring back to what we all did in our day is not helpful to addressing this very real problem.
How does a late bloomer expand their options and escape the lower tier assigned to them?
While I totally agree with your main point, anyone with 6 figures of undergrad debt is just six kinds of stupid.
It works the other way, too. I'm reasonably bright, but am no genius by any means. Yet I have test scores that say I am.
I don’t disagree with you, but it’s not that hard to do these days. An instate IU student could get close to that number.
Thanks for the straightforward reply.
I'm also curious about the draw that IU has with wealthy east coasters. I'm thinking of kids like Lauren Speirer. I think she was an "apparel marketing" major, or some such. Does IU offer such outstanding programs that no one else closer to home or in state out east can compete? Is the Greek/social/party aspect a big draw?
Sure, it could be done, with zero additional funds, living year round on student loans. $10K tuition + $15K living x 4 = $100K. But it's not like a non-student doesn't have to eat and pay rent and buy clothes for four years, so it's odd to me that kids would expect to be forgiven that money.
FWIW, I sat next to a lady on a flight to Vegas a couple years ago. She was from California. She had a couple kids. She explained kids there start prepping for SAT tests as soon as junior high. She said even with near perfect scores it’s difficult to get in Universities out there. She said great SATo scores make it possible to get into schools like IU, so kids head to the Midwest.
Edit maybe same thing occurs out east?
Her dad retired from USPACOM in Hawaii when she was in 2nd grade so it’s home for her.
Depends on the school in California. My daughter certainly didn’t have high test scores and got in to CSU-SM. It’s not Stanford or Berkeley, which might be the level that lady is shooting for. The community college first and then the university is a good route too. Entry standards are far easier to meet on that route.
I think she was shooting for Cal, USC & UCLA.
For IU I think it’s pretty simple why they’re taking all the out of state kids. It’s all about money.
I had to fight to get my son in IU back in 2014. He had great High School grades and above average SAT scores and it wasn’t a slam dunk.
She should be talking to the rowing coach.
I did too. I think I borrowed about $5,000, a year of tuition & fees at a good private school as an undergrad back in the 80s. Summer jobs paid a lot of the rest.
Those possibilities are long gone. 4 years at Columbia for my daughter, who just finished, ran about $280,000 total.
Tuition going from 3K a year to 70K a year, in one generation, is crazy. That's why debt is crazy, since it takes a Herculean effort on the parents part to avoid that debt. There's nothing the kids can do to even put a dent in it, with their $10/h summer jobs. Put the 2007-2010 recession in the middle of the savings, and it has been hard for the parents to do much either.
Yes, they could go to a community college. But that caps out their career potential, and everyone knows that.
When I attended Purdue in the early/mid 80's, out-of-state tuition plus room and board was ~$8,000. That equates to around $20,000 in today's dollars.
My son will start at Purdue in August (out-of-state) and the price is ~$40,000. And Purdue has not raised tuition or room and board in 9 years. In fact, it's cheaper now than it was in 2012 (room and board dropped). Yes, it's still about double what it used to be. However, it has not increased anything close to what most schools have - especially private colleges and universities.
Oh, and in 1880, tuition at Purdue was $14 (around $350 when adjusted for inflation).
In 1973 is was about $365/semester at IU. It was like $728 or something like that for the whole year.
You just need to change it to "ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do to your country.""
I think the main thing lawyers learn is school is how to write so absolutely nobody knows what they said.
Lemme guess, you were one of those white guys that got a perm so you could wear a 'fro, weren't you?
Training has gone from a cost borne by business to a cost borne by individuals. That and the massive changes in the employment landscape have been massive hits to the working class.
Trade degrees are great until that trade shrinks, is oversaturated, or goes away. Then, all of the sudden, there are a bunch of people going to get new trade degrees.
Liberal arts degrees, when used properly, are a long-game play. Having the skills of how to learn, how to creatively problem solve, and how to adapt to changing realities are some of the most crucial skills of the employment future and they are some of things a liberal arts degree can help with.
If I was a kid in the same circumstances today as I was then, I strongly believe I’d find a way. No doubt it would be a little more difficult. Might have started at IUS or something. The kid that cuts my grass is paying his way through college and so far not incurring any debt. Kid is a hard working entrepreneur. I cut grass for 5 bucks a yard, he does it for 30 and he’s practically cornered the market in our neighborhood. I wouldn’t be surprised if he starts his own company one day.
A lot of kids would just incur the debt and worry about it later.
Bernbrain Buys Breddead Boosters
Forgiving loans will incentivize private universities to raise tuition even higher and loan sharks and banksters to give loans to anyone and his boilermaker.
Forgiving loans will incentivize private universities to raise tuition even higher and loan sharks and banksters to give loans to anyone and his boilermaker.
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This thread is a great illustration of why loan forgiveness should be off the table. We can debate the level of current loan burden on young professionals and how that impacts our economy, but the bottom line is loan forgiveness will never fly. I would be highly in favor of reducing interest on student debt. Help them work through a near impossible task.
It will fly with independents -- right into re-electing Trump.
I was a swimmer. My hair looked like a bird's nest after a hurricane; and that was without any effort on my part.
Besides, I'm not that old - those perms were slightly before my time. I had bleached-out unkempt hair, sleeveless sweatshirts, and paper clip earrings (x3).
There's a place for some kind of assistance, I just don't know what it could/should be.
To me it's similar to the problems with health insurance and health care. The student loan problems don't address the underlying problem of the high cost of post-secondary education. In fact, they probably contribute to it. In the same vein, the concerns over the cost of health insurance don't address the high cost of health care itself, and the use an insurance payment model no doubt inflates the costs of delivery.
