W. Virginia Transfer, Sean McNeil has IU in his final 6....

[Aloha Hoosier]

L

I'm really skeptical of this building by the portal stuff. The portal will be going away soon and same as the players that come through it that will only see 1 or 2 years of eligibility.

I'm not totally against it temporarily, in fairness to the cohort that lost a year, but the good portal players will gravitate to the good programs and that is not us at this point.

Sustaining mid to low level mediocrity (like we'd be happy to just make the tourney or come close) is all that will result from that strategy of program building. At some point we're going to have to take lumps and develop players that we recruit. Even if we suck for yet another year, throwing the recruits we have in there to develop is much better than speculating about such and such talent in the portal that typically wouldn't flee a better program (at present that would include WVA) to come here. They're either a problem, didn't get along with coach, or got over recruited, we need high character players that fit into a system that we don't even know what is yet

This is a pretty good summary of the portal rules:

What the NCAA Transfer Portal Is... and What It Isn’t

The concept seemed simple: an online interface that helps athletics compliance officers do their jobs efficiently. But for sports fans hungry for information on lineups, the Transfer Portal has become so much more.

s3.amazonaws.com

Where in that article does it say the portal is temporary? It’s been around since 2018 and the NCAA likes it because it helps to ensure compliance. The only thing that may go away is automatic eligibility after the COVID year players are all gone, but I think it’s more likely that stays around. That’s already the case in other sports and even before COVID big name athletes were immediately eligible after transfer in football and basketball. Fields at OSU for one.

 

[B1G_Fan]

Actually I watched a lot of his highlights. He shared the point on his team. Read the article about him also it sheds light on him playing off guard quite a bit. Tamar shot 33% from the field and played zero defense. I have a hard time sheeting Hood not playing a ton given how bad our guards are.

Let’s see how well you know the Montverde team. Who exactly did JHS share the point with this year?

As I suggested, go look at Bates’ first 10 games when he was getting 20+ mpg. Shot 47% from the field and 36% from 3.

 

[bsmitty08]

Let’s see how well you know the Montverde team. Who exactly did JHS share the point with this year?

As I suggested, go look at Bates’ first 10 games when he was getting 20+ mpg. Shot 47% from the field and 36% from 3.

Sky Clark is who he split the point with last year and part of the year this year with his ACL injury slowing it. Also Bates first 10 games what is standing out?

Tamar Bates 2023-24 Stats per Game - NCAAM - ESPN

The 2023-24 NCAAM season stats per game for Tamar Bates of the Missouri Tigers on ESPN. Includes full stats, per opponent, for regular and postseason.

www.espn.com

 

[B1G_Fan]

Sky Clark is who he split the point with last year and part of the year this year with his ACL injury slowing it. Also Bates first 10 games what is standing out?

Tamar Bates 2023-24 Stats per Game - NCAAM - ESPN

The 2023-24 NCAAM season stats per game for Tamar Bates of the Missouri Tigers on ESPN. Includes full stats, per opponent, for regular and postseason.

www.espn.com

I knew you would be dumb enough to include Skyy Clark. He played in 2 games with Montverde this year. JHS played every single minute he was in the game (usually all game) at PG this year.

As for Bates, I pointed out that Bates shot 47% from the field, 36% from 3, and averaged 7 ppg during his first 10 games when he was getting 20+ mpg. Once Woodson dropped his mpg down to 10 mpg, his percentages slipped. It’s really not that hard to understand.

 

[oldcougar77]

We will see. Woodson has to play the guys that give the best opportunity to win the game. Playing the better defensive player is not always automatically the correct call. Bates and Geronimo are our two highest ceiling players. They should be played no matter what, because they won't develop on the bench. Woodson needs to learn to let players play through mistakes.

That's a fair point. However, when you are sitting on the bench coaching a team with limited offensive weapons and a razor-thin margin of error, you have to consider who is likely to make the fewest mistakes. That is magnified if you are a team on the bubble for an NCAAT bid. You don't have the luxury of having inexperienced players making critical mistakes.

One thing that is universally true that so many fans don't understand is this: The guys who are making mistakes in practice on Thursday afternoon aren't going to magically stop making those mistakes in the game on Friday night or Saturday afternoon. Every day in practice is a tryout for playing time in the game. I have never believed that some guys are "gamers" who don't perform well in practice but turn it on at game time. With apologies to Allen Iverson, in 30+ years I never coached a kid who was better in a game than he was in practice. I will admit that some kids are much better in practice, but struggle with the pressure and speed of a game.

It's great to be able to play young kids and live with their mistakes, but you have to weigh the risk of that against the reward. If your other players are good enough to carry you, that's awesome. If the mistakes of inexperience are costing you in the W-L column, you better hope you have the margin to survive those losses. Otherwise, you're screwing not only yourself, but also your team. It's also worth noting that if your young kids are progressing and becoming "game-dependable", that will show up in practice. I've never bought into the idea that players get better playing more in games. They find out their weaknesses and learn what they need to do to in practice to improve. When you coach them every day, you generally know that already ( if you're worth a damn as a coach).

I always told kids (and their parents) that if they wanted more game time on Friday night, they had to convince me and win my trust Monday through Thursday.

 

[B1G_Fan]

That's a fair point. However, when you are sitting on the bench coaching a team with limited offensive weapons and a razor-thin margin of error, you have to consider who is likely to make the fewest mistakes. That is magnified if you are a team on the bubble for an NCAAT bid. You don't have the luxury of having inexperienced players making critical mistakes.

One thing that is universally true that so many fans don't understand is this: The guys who are making mistakes in practice on Thursday afternoon aren't going to magically stop making those mistakes in the game on Friday night or Saturday afternoon. Every day in practice is a tryout for playing time in the game. I have never believed that some guys are "gamers" who don't perform well in practice but turn it on at game time. With apologies to Allen Iverson, in 30+ years I never coached a kid who was better in a game than he was in practice. I will admit that some kids are much better in practice, but struggle with the pressure and speed of a game.

It's great to be able to play young kids and live with their mistakes, but you have to weigh the risk of that against the reward. If your other players are good enough to carry you, that's awesome. If the mistakes of inexperience are costing you in the W-L column, you better hope you have the margin to survive those losses. Otherwise, you're screwing not only yourself, but also your team. It's also worth noting that if your young kids are progressing and becoming "game-dependable", that will show up in practice. I've never bought into the idea that players get better playing more in games. They find out their weaknesses and learn what they need to do to in practice to improve. When you coach them every day, you generally know that already ( if you're worth a damn as a coach).

I always told kids (and their parents) that if they wanted more game time on Friday night, they had to convince me and win my trust Monday through Thursday.

I disagree with most of this. If Woodson didn’t think he had the offensive players last year, why is he bringing back essentially the same team? Bates is the most natural scoring guard on the team.

I also disagree with your take on practice players vs gamers. Woodson and the assistants have raves about how well Kopp plays in practice which is why he gets so much PT. He doesn’t perform the same in games. Other players don’t perform well in practice (lack of focus, because there is nothing on the line), but they step up in the game. The best example of this from recent memory was Trevion Williams as a freshman at Purdue. He hardly played, until they had a game with foul trouble. He came in and played very very well. When asked why he hadn’t played more, Painter said others were better in practice. Over the course of the next few games Williams kept performing at an extremely high level and forced Painter to play him regardless of how he performs in practice. That turned Purdue’s season around. They ended up winning the Big Ten and making the Elite 8. Prior to Williams playing they were very poor.

It’s not like we were great with Stewart and Kopp playing instead of JG and Bates. We should have been building for the future.

 

[bsmitty08]

I knew you would be dumb enough to include Skyy Clark. He played in 2 games with Montverde this year. JHS played every single minute he was in the game (usually all game) at PG this year.

As for Bates, I pointed out that Bates shot 47% from the field, 36% from 3, and averaged 7 ppg during his first 10 games when he was getting 20+ mpg. Once Woodson dropped his mpg down to 10 mpg, his percentages slipped. It’s really not that hard to understand.

Sorry Mrs Bates. Good grief dude

 

[B1G_Fan]

Sorry Mrs Bates. Good grief dude

Lol I’ll take that as you giving up. There are plenty of full Montverde games on YT. I’d highly recommend you educate yourself on JHS’ game by watching the full games.

 

[Victorbmyboy]

that's what "it would mean he improved" means.

It happens... and his handle isn't that much worse than Kopp's. Kopp just makes less mistakes.

Way less. He’s rarely out of position and is a guard dog on better players. Sad (that’s why he plays so many minutes)that he’s such a versatile defender. Wish he shot more.

 

[Victorbmyboy]

I knew you would be dumb enough to include Skyy Clark. He played in 2 games with Montverde this year. JHS played every single minute he was in the game (usually all game) at PG this year.

As for Bates, I pointed out that Bates shot 47% from the field, 36% from 3, and averaged 7 ppg during his first 10 games when he was getting 20+ mpg. Once Woodson dropped his mpg down to 10 mpg, his percentages slipped. It’s really not that hard to understand.

Bates just needs to get his defense in gear. Only real thing holding him out.

 

[bsmitty08]

Bates just needs to get his defense in gear. Only real thing holding him out.

And the ability to make shots

 

[Victorbmyboy]

Playing time for both Bates and H-S will be largely based on their ability to defend. Woodson has been crystal clear about defense from day one. It is the primary reason Kopp and Stewart played more than Bates and Geronimo this year - and rightly so. While neither were elite defenders, they were competent (barring some temporary matchup issues in certain games). JG and TB struggled to guard on the perimeter (JG was satisfactory defending the post). Hopefully, both will make significant leaps defensively with a year under their belts. At every level, experience makes a huge difference in most players' ability to defend.

Wise coaches understand. A mistake on the offensive end results in a lost possession but doesn't usually lead directly to points for the other team. A mistake on the defensive end usually does.

JG isn’t a 3 at this point. Him and Race struggled on true stretch 4s. Race was real bad on close outs. Kopp can guard a 3 and do very well. Defense gets you minutes. Had no choice but to play Race and JG at the 4. JG was not great guarding at times. Hopefully he cleans that up. Hopefully he improves enough to play and guard the 3 also.

 

[Victorbmyboy]

And the ability to make shots

He made some big ones down the stretch when called upon. Did it twice in the B1G tournament. One was right before the half.

 

[bsmitty08]

He made some big ones down the stretch when called upon. Did it twice in the B1G tournament. One was right before the half.

Yes but I’m talking consistently. We need him to be a scorer next year. We need more production from the wing next year

 

[Victorbmyboy]

Yes but I’m talking consistently. We need him to be a scorer next year. We need more production from the wing next year

Only thing holding bates out isn’t scoring ability. It’s defense. That’s were he screws up. Takes tons of effort to get defense.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

I knew you would be dumb enough to include Skyy Clark. He played in 2 games with Montverde this year. JHS played every single minute he was in the game (usually all game) at PG this year.

As for Bates, I pointed out that Bates shot 47% from the field, 36% from 3, and averaged 7 ppg during his first 10 games when he was getting 20+ mpg. Once Woodson dropped his mpg down to 10 mpg, his percentages slipped. It’s really not that hard to understand.

It's not necessarily that simple.

Shots were easier to come by the first 10 games than they were in the Big 10. He was forcing shots later in the year, and being yanked, since he didn't add much on D or rebounding. So there's a 'chicken and egg' issue here. To my eyes, it looked like he got less time because he took hurried, forced shots.

The only thing Woodson could have done differently was just to commit to him playing 20M a game and living with his mistakes. He wouldn't do that.

 

[B1G_Fan]

It's not necessarily that simple.

Shots were easier to come by the first 10 games than they were in the Big 10. He was forcing shots later in the year, and being yanked, since he didn't add much on D or rebounding. So there's a 'chicken and egg' issue here. To my eyes, it looked like he got less time because he took hurried, forced shots.

The only thing Woodson could have done differently was just to commit to him playing 20M a game and living with his mistakes. He wouldn't do that.

He will never learn if he doesn’t get to play through mistakes. No one is going to shoot well knowing if they miss they will be yanked and not played again that game. The other issue is that Woodson only played Bates with other subs. He hardly ever got to run with the other starters.

He has to get huge minutes this year.

 

[bsmitty08]

Only thing holding bates out isn’t scoring ability. It’s defense. That’s were he screws up. Takes tons of effort to get defense.

Well he was not a good offensive player this year

 

[Victorbmyboy]

Well he was not a good offensive player this year

He got to the rack just couldn’t finish. Took bad shots but showed flashes the last 3-4 games. He cleans up his shots he will be good. Looked like a typical freshman to me.,

 

[go_iu]

L

Where in that article does it say the portal is temporary? It’s been around since 2018 and the NCAA likes it because it helps to ensure compliance. The only thing that may go away is automatic eligibility after the COVID year players are all gone, but I think it’s more likely that stays around. That’s already the case in other sports and even before COVID big name athletes were immediately eligible after transfer in football and basketball. Fields at OSU for one.

It doesn't, it's not, but it's my opinion that it will go away because it's easier to go portal that for players that would actually quality for a waiver. They'll have to address that.

These were my thoughts on why it's a bad thing to continue forever as that I responded to somebody earlier ...

"If student-athletes withdraw from the portal, the original school can return them to the roster and restore athletics aid if it chooses."

It has consequences for the player and hand ties the school that doesn't know what is going to happen and thus impacts recruiting for a replacement. It's basically the equivalent of a trade request in pro sports and a big mess that's just going to cause so many problems they'll have to get rid of it and, in general, just dilutes the quality of teams and consistency.

It also kind of legalizes what would be called tampering in the pro's, because if you don't know you got a deal, both the in-coming school and the transferring player are taking a big risk to commit to it and have one party back out. The only way you can get an assurance in that is if you've got plans made before a player announces ... sort of like looking for a new job without telling your current employer. It's not a perfect analogy though because there are dates and deadlines around sports for players and teams, whereas in a regular job your employer can just go recover from it whenever they can get a replacement (mid season, whenever)

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

It doesn't, it's not, but it's my opinion that it will go away because it's easier to go portal that for players that would actually quality for a waiver. They'll have to address that.

These were my thoughts on why it's a bad thing to continue forever as that I responded to somebody earlier ...

"If student-athletes withdraw from the portal, the original school can return them to the roster and restore athletics aid if it chooses."

It has consequences for the player and hand ties the school that doesn't know what is going to happen and thus impacts recruiting for a replacement. It's basically the equivalent of a trade request in pro sports and a big mess that's just going to cause so many problems they'll have to get rid of it and, in general, just dilutes the quality of teams and consistency.

It also kind of legalizes what would be called tampering in the pro's, because if you don't know you got a deal, both the in-coming school and the transferring player are taking a big risk to commit to it and have one party back out. The only way you can get an assurance in that is if you've got plans made before a player announces ... sort of like looking for a new job without telling your current employer. It's not a perfect analogy though because there are dates and deadlines around sports for players and teams, whereas in a regular job your employer can just go recover from it whenever they can get a replacement (mid season, whenever)

OK. I disagree. I don’t think it’s going away anytime soon. All invested parties seem to like it - NCAA, Universities, players, media, fans, and NBA. Why would it go away?

 

[go_iu]

OK. I disagree. I don’t think it’s going away anytime soon. All invested parties seem to like it - NCAA, Universities, players, media, fans, and NBA. Why would it go away?

Because I think when you intertwine the flaws in this with NIL, it's going to certainly raise some legal issues. Like what happens if a player with a big NIL deal at one school decides they aren't ready for the pro's and comes back only because they can get a bigger NIL deal elsewhere through their portal option. NIL is going nowhere, but I think they will greatly restrict the portal and that's why we should be growing our own talent instead of trying to stay barely above water through portal transfers.

 

[GeorgeStrait IU]

West Virginia has been about the same as IU the last 8-10 years. Sad honestly

West Virginia has been about the same as IU the last 8-10 years. Sad honestly

Note: Indiana and West Virginia have never played each other in men’s basketball. The Hoosiers were scheduled to play them in NYC few years back but I believe Glass scrapped it.

 

[Cavanagh]

I will admit that some kids are much better in practice, but struggle with the pressure and speed of a game.

This can be lethal if you don’t figure this out as a coach. For example Miller does not miss in practice by all accounts. Is as much a knockdown shooter as many of the guys have ever seen. It has been proven under pressure Miller is not the greatest. Missing shots and FTs late when I guarantee he would have made them if there was no pressure.

Tamar on the other hand rises to pressure. He hit a few huge FTS this year when the pressure was on, and was built to step up when it matters most.

 

[.Gerdis]

This can be lethal if you don’t figure this out as a coach. For example Miller does not miss in practice by all accounts. Is as much a knockdown shooter as many of the guys have ever seen. It has been proven under pressure Miller is not the greatest. Missing shots and FTs late when I guarantee he would have made them if there was no pressure.

Tamar on the other hand rises to pressure. He hit a few huge FTS this year when the pressure was on, and was built to step up when it matters most.

as a team, Indiana finished KenPom #48, but they finished 223rd in luck. All year long we harped on their record in close games. I don’t know what that record was but it wasn’t good. Typically I would expect a team to revert to the mean the following year. Obviously there are many factors involved.

Wisconsin was 15th in luck. Incidentally they were top 5 until late in the season (when Davis, their closer, got nicked up).

Providence ended up first, but they couldn’t get over the hump late versus KU.

but getting back to what I said about reverting to the mean, if I were a betting man I’d like to find a team that lost a ton of close games and expect them to revert to the mean. If IU had won just 2-3 of those close losses the season would look quite a bit differently. We will (again) “likely” be extremely experienced. If we can stop the late mistakes (defensive breakdowns, turnovers) and make a few more plays (key shots, and late free throws), well that would be great.

One final thought. Last season the games we scheduled were total crap. Having a tougher non conference will help with learning to close out games.

 

[Hatchets7times]

He needs a better handle.

I'm a firm believer you can either handle the ball by the time your about 15 or not.
Geronimo isn't becoming Kyrie Irving over the summer...

 

[mushroomgod_1]

I'm a firm believer you can either handle the ball by the time your about 15 or not.
Geronimo isn't becoming Kyrie Irving over the summer...

I think you're generally right.......I think Victor was an exception. Because he played here, everybody thinks JG can pull a Victor. Probably not.

 

[RickyRoe]

I think you're generally right.......I think Victor was an exception. Because he played here, everybody thinks JG can pull a Victor. Probably not.

Geronimo reminds me a lot more of OG than Vic.

Just like OG, Geronimo always seems to be in the right place at the right time for some easy buckets. They both are athletic and play good defense. And although the stats show he was a career 36% 3-point shooter at IU, OG really wasn't that good a shooter until he made himself into one - as bore out by his 52% free throw percentage. Geronimo also shoots in the mid 30%'s from 3, but I never feel that comfortable when he shoots them and his FT% is 48% for his career. But there's reason to believe that, just like OG, Geronimo can become a much better shooter. But until he does that, he's more of a 4 than a 3 just like OG was.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

Geronimo reminds me a lot more of OG than Vic.

Just like OG, Geronimo always seems to be in the right place at the right time for some easy buckets. They both are athletic and play good defense. And although the stats show he was a career 36% 3-point shooter at IU, OG really wasn't that good a shooter until he made himself into one - as bore out by his 52% free throw percentage. Geronimo also shoots in the mid 30%'s from 3, but I never feel that comfortable when he shoots them and his FT% is 48% for his career. But there's reason to believe that, just like OG, Geronimo can become a much better shooter. But until he does that, he's more of a 4 than a 3 just like OG was.

Yes, good points. And by saying "pull a Victor" I'm really just saying improve drastically is all respects in 1 year. But I do agree with you & Hatchett that improving shooting % is more easily done than improving ball-handling capabilities. And given that JG is a couple inches shorter than OG, ball-handling is even more important to his pro upside than it was for OG.

 

[T.M.P.]

I'm a firm believer you can either handle the ball by the time your about 15 or not.

Wut?

 

[IUNorth]

I'm a firm believer you can either handle the ball by the time your about 15 or not.
Geronimo isn't becoming Kyrie Irving over the summer...

I might be with you if you had said something more specific about whether someone can "become" a pure PG after a certain age...but your first statement is way too broad, and comparing him to the best ball handler in the world is obviously absurd...even though I know the intent of the comparison.

For one thing, it doesn't take into account how much basketball a kid has played before their 15th birthday... My son has a kid on his AAU team that just started playing organized basketball last year...he couldn't hardly dribble a ball at all when he started practicing with them. Now he's dribbling well enough to make plays within their offense going to the basket. (he's a 6'8 8th grader that gets about 2-3 legit dunks a game...in case you're wondering why a kid that hasn't played before is playing AAU). Anyway, he just turned 14...I'd contend he'll continue to improve his ball handling skills dramatically, well past the age of 15.

There are also examples of kids that are used in certain ways at high schools and even AAU programs, that end up becoming more active handling the ball in college.

In general, I think I get what you're saying. But Jordan is never going to be called upon to weave his way through a press, he'll hardly ever be asked to bring the ball up the court. He can absolutely work on his handles enough to comfortably handle the ball in transition, and within a half court offense. I don't know that he will? One of the reasons Victor improved as much as he did was his legendary work ethic and just overall drive. Jordan might have that too? But I haven't heard much talk about it if he does? That's the one thing nearly everyone talked about with Vic when he arrived in Bloomington.

 

[rocketo]

Galloway can’t shoot

He seems very far away from playing the 1-2 spot, though I suppose he did in a crunch once or twice this past year. He needs a better shot from the outside for sure, and I imagine that is his primary off-season focus.

Otherwise he is a 3 that can’t shoot but brings defense and energy likely off the bench.