Zelensky is a great war time leader, but he needs to farm out his negotiations with the US to someone else.
Trump Zelensky today.....
- Thread starter dr.jb
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This is misinformation. He met with Republican and Democrat Senators in the same meeting who essentially expressed their support for him and Ukraine. Support for Ukraine has been bipartisan until now. I have since seen MAGAs post, no kidding, “**** UKRAINE” on Facebook since Friday. This is wrong.
Based on Bessents comments and Zelensky’s actions, I agree with CO. It doesn’t mean we’re right, but it’s not an unreasonable conclusion.
Well, "unreasonable" is subjective, but I'll grant that you're using inductive reasoning to draw a conclusion based on data. I'm saying that data is so sparse and so ambiguous as to amount to really no evidence to support your conclusion. I, however, would not accuse you of engaging in some sort of logical fallacy, though. I do think Z should have signed this thing in Kyiv or Munich and avoided the whole shebang. I'm not willing to follow your leap that it means he didn't really intend to sign it. I think at most it signals that he really wanted to sign it with Trump on American soil.
Why do people keep citing this? He works for Trump now and is in charge of carrying out Trump’s foreign policy vision.
Does not change a comma of what I postedYou don't even want to go there after what the Russians did at Bucha.
And they haven't kidnapped tens of thousands of Russian children like the Russians took Ukrainian children
War crimes in the Russian invasion of Ukraine - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Bucha massacre
Main article: Bucha massacre
Executed civilians with wrists bound in plastic restraints, in a basement in Bucha, 3 April 2022
Russian forces north of Kyiv withdrew in late March, Videos emerged of bodies in the streets, at least twenty in civilian clothing.[67] AFP saw at least twenty civilians corpses in the street, all shot in the back of the head. At least one had its hands tied, Another 270 to 280 were buried in mass graves.[68][67] Police said on 15 April they had found 350 bodies in Bucha, most with gunshot wounds.[63]
Drone video verified by The New York Times showed two Russian armoured vehicles firing at a civilian walking a bicycle. A later video showed the body lying next to a bicycle.[69] The Economist reported a man trapped at a checkpoint who took artillery fire then was captured, beaten and tortured, then taken outside to be shot. He played dead until he could flee.[70] BBC News reported tied bodies of civilians at a temple, run over by a tank.[71]
Territorial Defense Forces released video of 18 mutilated bodies in Zabuchchia, Bucha Raion.[72] A Ukrainian soldier said some bodies had their ears cut off and the teeth of others had been pulled.[72] Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty reported a Russian "execution cellar" used by Russian forces.[73] Russian soldiers killed a woman and her 14-year-old after they threw smoke grenades into a basement where they hid.[57]
Russian tanks entered Bucha shooting randomly at house windows as they drove down the streets.[74] The New York Times said snipers in high-rise buildings shot at anyone that moved.[75] A witness told Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty that Russians "were killing people systematically. I personally heard how one sniper was boasting that he 'offed' two people he saw in apartment windows..."[76] Troops fired at civilians seeking food and water, witnesses said, and ordered them back inside without basic necessities like water and heat. Russian troops shot indiscriminately at buildings and refused medical aid to injured civilians, HRW said.[74]
Russian soldiers checked documents and killed anyone who had fought in Donbas or had tattoos of right-wing or Ukrainian symbols, said a witness. In the last days of occupation, Kadyrovite Chechen fighters shot at every civilian they met.[77] A resident said Russians checked cell phones for evidence of "anti-Russian activity" before they took people away or shot them.[78]
Associated Press saw charred bodies on a residential street near a playground in Bucha on 5 April. One had a bullet hole in its skull, another was the burned body of a child. They could not identify them or determine how they died.[79] Ukrainian investigators found beheadings, mutilation and incinerated corpses, and the next day three more bodies in a glass factory, The Washington Post reported. At least one body was booby trapped, mined with tripwires.[80] HRW reported "extensive evidence of summary executions... and torture" in Bucha and 16 apparently unlawful killings, nine summary executions and seven indiscriminate killings of civilians.[81]
The New York Times on 19 May released video of Russian paratroopers leading a group of civilians, clearly in Russian custody minutes before their execution. The video confirms eyewitness accounts.[82]
By 8 August 458 bodies were recovered, including 9 children; 419 were killed with weapons and 39 died of natural causes possibly related to the occupation.[83]
On 7 December OHCHR reported that the Monitoring Mission in Ukraine had documented at least 73 unlawful killings of civilians in Bucha and were still confirming another 105.[84]
This is simple. It did not happen as the Twitter Twits said it did. It was a meeting between Democrat AND Republican Senators and Zelenskyy. The Senators simply expressed support and hopes for a peace deal in the not too distant future. Support for Ukraine has been bipartisan until now.
Wonder how many times you'll need to post this before people get it.
Oh, wait, no I don't. They won't get it, no matter how many times.
Zelenskyy is saying he thinks the deal will get signed. Trump also. Are you following the latest news?
Ok. But I believe there is zero chance Russia accepts that with NATO membership. Just my opinion. I think the NATO is a non-starter for Putin.
And no mention of US security guarantees for Ukraine. Obviously, Z wants that as he demanded last week.
Exactly right. Once they have the misinformation in their heads it stays there and cannot be dislodged.
ive successfully negotiated scores of contentious settlements. One of the biggest impediments to productive settlements is a client’s need to go into court and say what an asshole the opposing party is. That is where Zelensky is and that is where you are. But it really is a nonproductive waste of time. Settlements are only about getting a good deal for your side.
It’s about way more than feelz. Making Putin the bad guy (which he is) drums up support for Ukraine within supporting nations’ populations, increasing the chances of further and greater funding, leading to better terms for Ukraine.
And there might be some minor similarities between a legal settlement and a peace deal between warring nations, but they are far from identical.
That ship has sailed. In the first year or two, sympathies were strongly pro-Ukraine and anti- Putin. Now war fatigue is setting in. Polling data shows that belief that Zelenskyy knows what he is doing is dwindling fast.
It used to be easy to explain war fatigue, Americans drew tired of having their children die.
It turns out it isn't Americans dying that causes war fatigue since there are not Americans dying. It is cost. It is that we will pay no price for liberty. Putin is pouring in Russia's treasure AND children and we lack the will to send our older castoff equipment.
I can see where China would get the idea Taiwan is free for the taking.
Taiwan is there for the taking. We can try to deter as much as much as possible and arm up Taiwan, but push come to shove we won’t go to war over Taiwan or try to run a blockade.
Trump knows this and is triangulating accordingly.
Chip giant TSMC announces $100B investment in US | Fox Business
Chipmaking giant TSMC is expected to announce a $100 billion investment in the U.S. at the White House that would bring more semiconductor manufacturing to the country.
That is great, it isn't anything new:Taiwan is there for the taking. We can try to deter as much as much as possible and arm up Taiwan, but push come to shove we won’t go to war over Taiwan or try to run a blockade.
Trump knows this and is triangulating accordingly.
Chip giant TSMC announces $100B investment in US | Fox Business
Chipmaking giant TSMC is expected to announce a $100 billion investment in the U.S. at the White House that would bring more semiconductor manufacturing to the country.www.foxbusiness.com
TSMC has already made strides to expand its footprint in the U.S prior to Monday’s announcement. The company committed $12 billion in 2020 to build its first U.S. chip factory in Arizona, later raising that investment to $65 billion with a third factory. It has also gained U.S. government support through a $6.6 billion subsidy from the U.S. Commerce Department.
This new investment will at least bring the new chips here, I suspect not all that we need but it is better than nothing.
I am not suggesting we commit Americans to Taiwan; suggesting Taiwan can't count on anything more than a sympathy card from the US. Probably the same for Japan, Korea, Hawaii, etc.
A lot depends on who asks us for help. A pip-squeak clown who shows up in the Oval Office wearing a sweat suit doesn’t cut it. That meeting was the most important meeting since the Russian invasion and Zelenskyy had his feeble mind in February of 2022.
Damn you are insecure to let his attire bother you that way. Of course if he showed up in a finely tailored Italian suit people would say it was clear he was skimming money. I like Lech Walesa's letter yesterday. I don't think Reagan would have gave a damn about the clothing.
Your Excellency Mr President,
We watched the report of your conversation with the President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelenski with fear and distaste. We consider your expectations to show respect and gratitude for the material help provided by the United States fighting Russia to Ukraine insulting. Gratitude is due to the heroic Ukrainian soldiers who shed their blood in defense of the values of the free world. They have been dying on the frontline for more than 11 years in the name of these values and independence of their Homeland, which was attacked by Putin's Russia.
We do not understand how the leader of a country that is the symbol of the free world cannot see it.
Our panic was also caused by the fact that the atmosphere in the Oval Office during this conversation reminded us of one we remember well from Security Service interrogations and from the debate rooms in Communist courts. Prosecutors and judges at the behest of the all-powerful communist political police also explained to us that they hold all the cards and we hold none. They demanded us to stop our business, arguing that thousands of innocent people suffer because of us. They deprived us of our freedoms and civil rights because we refused to cooperate with the government and our gratitude. We are shocked that Mr. President Volodymyr Zelenski treated in the same way.
The history of the 20th century shows that every time the United States wanted to keep its distance from democratic values and its European allies, it ended up being a threat to themselves. This was understood by President Woodrow Wilson, who decided to join the United States in World War I in 1917. President Franklin Delano Roosevelt understood this, deciding after the attack on Pearl Harbor in December 1941 that the war for the defense of America would be fought not only in the Pacific, but also in Europe, in alliance with the countries attacked by the Third Reich.
We remember that without President Ronald Reagan and American financial commitment it would not have been possible to bring the collapse of the Soviet Union empire. President Reagan was aware that millions of enslaved people were suffering in Soviet Russia and the countries it conquered, including thousands of political prisoners who paid for their sacrifice in defense of democratic values with freedom. His greatness was m. in. on the fact that he without hesitation called the USSR the "Empire of Evil" and gave it a decisive fight. We won, and the statue of President Ronald Reagan stands today in Warsaw vis a vis of the US embassy.
Mr. President, material aid - military and financial - cannot be equivalent to the blood shed in the name of independence and freedom of Ukraine, Europe, as well as the whole free world. Human life is priceless, its value cannot be measured with money. Gratitude is due to those who make the sacrifice of blood and freedom. It is obvious for us, the people of "Solidarity", former political prisoners of the communist regime serving Soviet Russia.
We are calling for the United States to withdraw from the guarantees it made with the Great Britain in the 1994 Budapest Memorandum, which recorded a direct obligation to defend the intact borders of Ukraine in exchange for giving up its nuclear weapons resources. These guarantees are unconditional: there is no word about treating such aid as an economic exchange.
Lech Wales, b. political prisoner, Solidarity leader, president of the Republic of Poland III
Mark Bailin, b. political prisoner, editor of independent publishing houses
Severn Blumstein, b. political prisoner, member of the Workers' Defense Committee
Teresa Bogucka, b. a political prisoner, activist of the democratic opposition and Solidarity
Gregory Bogut, b. political prisoner, activist of democratic opposition, independent publisher
Mark Borowik, b. political prisoner, independent publisher
Bogdan Borusewicz, b. political prisoner, leader of the underground Solidarity in Gdansk
Zbigniew Bujak, b. political prisoner, leader of the underground Solidarity in Warsaw
Władysław Frasyniuk, b. political prisoner, leader of the underground Solidarity in Wrocław
Andrew Gintzburg, b. a political prisoner, activist of the underground Solidarity
Richard Grabarczyk, b. a political prisoner, Solidarity activist
Alexander Janiszewski, b. a political prisoner, Solidarity activist
Peter Kapczy otrski, b. a political prisoner, activist of the democratic opposition
Mark Kossakowski, b. political prisoner, independent publicist
Christopher the King, b. a political prisoner , independence activist
Jaroslav Kurski, b. a political prisoner, activist of the democratic opposition
Barbara Swan, b. a political prisoner, activist of the underground Solidarity
Bogdan Lis, b. political prisoner, leader of the underground Solidarity in Gdansk
Henryk Majewski, b. a political prisoner, Solidarity activist
Adam Michnik, b. political prisoner, activist of the democratic opposition, editor of independent publishing houses
Slavomir Najniger, b. a political prisoner, activist of the underground Solidarity
Peter the German , b. political prisoner, journalist, and printer of underground publishing houses,
Stefan Konstanty Niesiołowski, b. a political prisoner , independence activist
Edward Nowak, b. a political prisoner, activist of the underground Solidarity
Wojciech Onyszkiewicz, b. political prisoner, member of the Workers' Defence Committee, Solidarity activist
Anthony Pawlak, b. a political prisoner, activist of the democratic opposition and underground Solidarity
Sylwia Poleska-Peryt, b. a political prisoner, activist of the democratic opposition
Christopher Push, b. a political prisoner, activist of the underground Solidarity
Richard Push, b. a political prisoner, activist of the underground Solidarity,
Jacek Rakowiecki, b. a political prisoner, activist of the underground Solidarity
Andrew Severn, b. political prisoner, actor, director of the Polish Theater in Warsaw
Witold Sielewicz, b. political prisoner, printer of independent publishing houses
Henryk Sikora, b. a political prisoner, Solidarity activist
Christopher Siemien Krski, b. political prisoner, journalist, and printer of underground publishing houses
Gra ,yna Staniszewska, b. a political prisoner, leaders of Solidarity of the Beskids region
George Degrees, b. a political prisoner, activist of the democratic opposition
Joanna Happy, b. political prisoner, editor of Solidarity underground press
Ludwik Turko, b. a political prisoner, activist of the underground Solidarity
Matthew Wierzbicki, b. political prisoner, printer and publicist of independent publishing houses
The plan is Trump takes Putin's "word for it" (whatever that means) and he wants rights to ephemeral rare earths that will probably still be in the ground 5 decades from now.
Now JD Vance is insulting the British, who if I'm not mistaken had better success post 9/11 in Afghanistan than the Americans. Not that anyone had success.
He's even managed to lose Farage, who I generally agree with if not for his constant trump cock sucking.
Taiwan is there for the taking. We can try to deter as much as much as possible and arm up Taiwan, but push come to shove we won’t go to war over Taiwan or try to run a blockade.
Trump knows this and is triangulating accordingly.
Chip giant TSMC announces $100B investment in US | Fox Business
Chipmaking giant TSMC is expected to announce a $100 billion investment in the U.S. at the White House that would bring more semiconductor manufacturing to the country.
Under current admin, maybe we let Taiwan go. Under any other admin of either party, we defend it.
The US, up until 6 weeks ago, had a deal with the world in which we would directly defend friends accessible by ocean and would support friends who are not. Join our economic system, let us make the security calls, and you are in. It’s not perfect but we’ve staved off WW3 for decades by using this blueprint. But hey, f*ck it!
That's been his standard attire since Russia invaded. He's at war and he looks like he's at war. Other leaders have done the same during wartime. This stuff about his attire is super petty.
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He only cares about the track suit because Trump told him to. I'm not a fan of his dress either, but in the context of world war as trump claims who gives a shit about a track suit? I don't care if the dude shows up in rags. I'm surprised Trump basically capitulated and completely conceded to the taliban considering they wore rags.
The pipsqueak stuff I really don't get? It's cause the dude is short?
I'm not fan of zelensky. Dude is corrupt as hell. Virtually all of the USSR is. Although as trump like to say are we any better? (I sure see a lot of self dealing right now.) The best case scenario is we let them continue to bludgeon each other or Putin retreats.
A student I taught in one of my last international classes in my last active-duty assignment was a Ukranian officer. She posted this on Facebook yesterday:
No doubt Ukrainians would see it this way. This is creating a lot of doubt about our resolve to support our allies and partners as we have since WWII. This isn't the kind of foreign policy our country should engage in.
No doubt Ukrainians would see it this way. This is creating a lot of doubt about our resolve to support our allies and partners as we have since WWII. This isn't the kind of foreign policy our country should engage in.
That's the main point, sure, he should have worn a suit. But big deal compared to a major war. Can you imagine telling Churchill, "we don't like your dress at the last meeting so we are tapping out and signing a peace with Germany."
If you don't like the dress, tell him in private you expect more.
Because I think we shouldn't trust people who change their positions based on who they work for.
Anyone who would give up their principles to get a job for personal advantage is not someone I'd want in government, although I'm not naive enough to think it doesn't happen all the time.
I don't know the situation you're talking about.
I do know the documented mass extermination of Ukrainian citizzens in Bucha.
Everything we saw after the standard press conference should have happened in private. It was an embarrassment. It does not inspire our allies and partners around the world at all. It's the opposite.
He said it was 20 years after the 1994 agreement, so I assume it's 2014, the year Russia invaded Crimea.
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