Trump Zelensky today.....

[Marvin the Martian]

Our post WWII policy created the Cold War. A very expensive military stand-off. That began to crumble as the institutions we help build included third-world tin-horns in decision- making rolls and also of course with the Soviet break-up and Eastern Block disintegration.

Do you really want to restart a 21st Cenutury version of the Cold War?

Trump sees a world not based on military “security agreements” but one based on business and commerce where nations and institutions see the folly of military confrontations.

How hard were you laughing as you wrote that.

Trump has discussed using the military in Greenland, Mexico, Panama, Gaza. How often do business and commerce discuss forcibly annexing areas by military force or using military force to eliminate gangs or force passage of ships at favorable rates?

Siding with Putin is hardly a "business and commerce" exception as Putin in no way tried to buy or legally obtain the land he wants. He used military. Siding with Putin will encourage military solutions. not deter them.

The military alliance system was designed to create a huge area of the world free from conflict as conflict is bad for business. Free from conflict and consistent rule of law allow business to thrive and have been the idea of the US since WW2. It did allow American business and culture to embed itself across the world. You can go to McDonands in a whole lot of the world, buy a coke in a whole lot of the world, buy Nikes.

Trump is not advocating that system. He doesn't care about a consistent rule of law, and he doesn't really care about military conflict. He just wants to be seen on the side of the winner as he wants that winning image to reflect on him. So yep, if China looked like they were going to take Taiwan, Trump would gladly side with China. No doubt. Much as he appears to be doing in Ukraine.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

The way forward is mutually beneficial commerce and business. Trump is looking at Ukraine in these terms and Z wants hard military commitments.

Yes, if the US were invaded you would be screaming "to hell with military, we need business commitments."

Reagan would cry if he saw his party today.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I know I'd be pissed if any of my junior officers or subordinates did what Vance did.

I’ve told my sssiciate attorneys exactly the opposite. I recall one meeting where afterwards our associate brought up a good point that wasn’t discussed. I asked her why she didn’t mention that and she said she didn’t know she should. I made it very clear to her that she is with me there because she is smart and capable and I expected her to contribute. I never felt so constrained when I was an associate.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Siding with Putin

I’m sick and tired of this siding with Putin shit. We are in this stinking mess because Biden and the Democrats went belly up in front of Putin because they were scared of “provoking” him.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Do you really think the way forward is with Allies, Treaties, military defense agreements, and armed peacekeepers? IMHO, all of that is mostly useless. All you have to do is look at how Western Europe is dependent on Putin and Russia for energy to know this.

The way forward is mutually beneficial commerce and business. Trump is looking at Ukraine in these terms and Z wants hard military commitments.

Yes. NATO has worked beautifully to deter war in nearly all of Europe since WWII.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

I’ve told my sssiciate attorneys exactly the opposite. I recall one meeting where afterwards our associate brought up a good point that wasn’t discussed. I asked her why she didn’t mention that and she said she didn’t know she should. I made it very clear to her that she is with me there because she is smart and capable and I expected her to contribute. I never felt so constrained when I was an associate.

Depends on the type of meeting.

 

[HurryingHoosiers]

Russia has broken 20 different negotiated agreements with Ukraine in the recent past.

If Oumar Ballo missed 20 free throws in a row, would it be disrespectful to ask the coach why the ball was in Ballo's hand while protecting a 1 point lead in the closing seconds?

It would be like leaving a hot wife in a dressing room alone with Trump. Completely ignoring the past.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Yes, if the US were invaded you would be screaming "to hell with military, we need business commitments."

Reagan would cry if he saw his party today.

It’s not Reagan’s Republican Party for foreign policy even slightly. It’s sickening.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

I’m sick and tired of this siding with Putin shit. We are in this stinking mess because Biden and the Democrats went belly up in front of Putin because they were scared of “provoking” him.

Another thing grouchy old man is sick of. That concerns me.

Your complaints about Biden and Putin began after the invasion and how we were supplying Ukraine by starting small and ratcheting it up. That doesn't impact whether or not he invades Ukraine. If you have a post prior to invasion you wish to share, feel free.

We supporting a group that I hate to call "freedom fighters" because I doubt Ukraine wants what I would call freedom. But compared to the alternative, it is freedom. But it appears our business-minded president, your assessment, isn't concerned with freedom but profit. One of us needs to reread the ideals of the Declaration of Independence. I don't think it was ever designed to put profits ahead of inalienable rights. Note, profit isn't an inalienable right. Selling out Ukraine for profit isn't American. Or at leas, wasn't.

What do YOU think Reagan would do today with Putin?

 

[HurryingHoosiers]

I’m sick and tired of this siding with Putin shit. We are in this stinking mess because Biden and the Democrats went belly up in front of Putin because they were scared of “provoking” him.

I am sick and tired of trump sycophants constantly defending Trump being Putin's lap dog.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Another thing grouchy old man is sick of. That concerns me.

Your complaints about Biden and Putin began after the invasion and how we were supplying Ukraine by starting small and ratcheting it up. That doesn't impact whether or not he invades Ukraine. If you have a post prior to invasion you wish to share, feel free.

We supporting a group that I hate to call "freedom fighters" because I doubt Ukraine wants what I would call freedom. But compared to the alternative, it is freedom. But it appears our business-minded president, your assessment, isn't concerned with freedom but profit. One of us needs to reread the ideals of the Declaration of Independence. I don't think it was ever designed to put profits ahead of inalienable rights. Note, profit isn't an inalienable right. Selling out Ukraine for profit isn't American. Or at leas, wasn't.

What do YOU think Reagan would do today with Putin?

Even George Washgton knew the value of international commerce.

Jay Treaty

The 1794 Jay Treaty restored relations with Great Britain and caused great political rifts within the American public.

www.mountvernon.org

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Even George Washgton knew the value of international commerce.

Jay Treaty

The 1794 Jay Treaty restored relations with Great Britain and caused great political rifts within the American public.

www.mountvernon.org

Even? Of course he did. Our President needs some training and education in the subject of trade between nations.

 

[iuwclurker]

I’m sick and tired of this siding with Putin shit.

Truth sucks and then you die.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Even George Washgton knew the value of international commerce.

Jay Treaty

The 1794 Jay Treaty restored relations with Great Britain and caused great political rifts within the American public.

www.mountvernon.org

And uhm, did President Washington push to have normalized business relations with Britain DURING the war? After the war, I completely get. I favored normalizing with Vietnam after the war. No problems with me buying Japanese products. But the question in Ukraine is that a war is happening.

We stopped trade with Japan over the Rape of Nanking. Even before Poland our trade with Germany had collapsed.

My argument on trade is, if we can't get real security guarantees to prevent Putin from another bite at the apple, we can't trade with Russia.

Everything is a business deal to Trump. I prefer FDR's "If your neighbor's house is on fire you don't argue over the cost of your garden hose." Arguing over the cost of the garden hose is Trump 101.

Everyone should read Lech Walesa's letter to Trump, if they have not. Because that letter answers the question you keep ignoring, what would Reagan do?

 

[IUINSB]

I’m sick and tired of this siding with Putin shit. We are in this stinking mess because Biden and the Democrats went belly up in front of Putin because they were scared of “provoking” him.

Then stop siding with Putin.

 

[outside shooter]

So, he's going to do more of what Biden already was doing?

Is that correct?

yep

On occasion he reverses course when public opinion (even among his loyalists) is clearly against him, such as Canada tariffs and grooming Putin's nether regions.

 

[HurryingHoosiers]

So, he's going to do more of what Biden already was doing?

Is that correct?

Pretty much. But biden was doing it wrong while Trump's same thing is doing it bigly.

Of course, biden never had a detour of kissing Putin's ring before coming to that conclusion.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

And uhm, did President Washington push to have normalized business relations with Britain DURING the war? After the war, I completely get. I favored normalizing with Vietnam after the war. No problems with me buying Japanese products. But the question in Ukraine is that a war is happening.

We stopped trade with Japan over the Rape of Nanking. Even before Poland our trade with Germany had collapsed.

My argument on trade is, if we can't get real security guarantees to prevent Putin from another bite at the apple, we can't trade with Russia.

Everything is a business deal to Trump. I prefer FDR's "If your neighbor's house is on fire you don't argue over the cost of your garden hose." Arguing over the cost of the garden hose is Trump 101.

Everyone should read Lech Walesa's letter to Trump, if they have not. Because that letter answers the question you keep ignoring, what would Reagan do?

I read "The Rape of Nanking" by Iris Chang last November. Good book.

 

[dbmhoosier]

Pretty much. But biden was doing it wrong while Trump's same thing is doing it bigly.

Of course, biden never had a detour of kissing Putin's ring before coming to that conclusion.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

I read "The Rape of Nanking" by Iris Chang last November. Good book.

Thanks, I will have to pick it up. You have membership, if you would, I wanted to tell you something but I can't start a chat since I dropped my membership. Can you start a chat with me? thanks.

 

[GooglyMooglyWooglyBoogly]

View embedded media

Trump struck out as Russia for the first time yesterday. Some ominous “they don’t really have a choice either” wrt to Russia coming to the negotiation table.

Wish the Euros would get out of the way and let him cook.

 

[HurryingHoosiers]

View embedded media

Hope it works and Trump doesn't continue to play lap dog in the negotiations.

 

[BradStevens]

View embedded media

Polite Trump is one of my favorite Trumps.

 

[BradStevens]

And uhm, did President Washington push to have normalized business relations with Britain DURING the war? After the war, I completely get. I favored normalizing with Vietnam after the war. No problems with me buying Japanese products. But the question in Ukraine is that a war is happening.

We stopped trade with Japan over the Rape of Nanking. Even before Poland our trade with Germany had collapsed.

My argument on trade is, if we can't get real security guarantees to prevent Putin from another bite at the apple, we can't trade with Russia.

Everything is a business deal to Trump. I prefer FDR's "If your neighbor's house is on fire you don't argue over the cost of your garden hose." Arguing over the cost of the garden hose is Trump 101.

Everyone should read Lech Walesa's letter to Trump, if they have not. Because that letter answers the question you keep ignoring, what would Reagan do?

Why is Reagan the exemplar? He didn't have to deal with anything like this, did he? The closest example would be the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, under Carter. Carter imposed a grain embargo on the Soviets for that invasion. Reagan reversed it.

 

[outside shooter]

I read "The Rape of Nanking" by Iris Chang last November. Good book.

I have visited the Chinese city city of Nanjing (formerly Nanking) about 10 years ago and visited the memorials there. I certainly gained a better appreciation of how horrible Japan was (300,000 Chinese civilians were systematically raped, tortured, and murdered) and why Chinese people will forever hold it against them. Eye opening level of brutality, all done in a short time in Dec 1937.

 

[GooglyMooglyWooglyBoogly]

I have visited the Chinese city city of Nanjing (formerly Nanking) about 10 years ago and visited the memorials there. I certainly gained a better appreciation of how horrible Japan was (300,000 Chinese civilians were systematically raped, tortured, and murdered) and why Chinese people will forever hold it against them. Eye opening level of brutality, all done in a short time in Dec 1937.

Once more, the Chinese fight in WW2 locked down enough Japanese soldiers to allow our island hopping campaign to be functional if not almost successful.

WW2 was magnificent for American historical revisionism. Russia and China eat the bulk of the axis power and wrath. Like really to the point where it decimated their societies.

We come in at the 11th hour, mop what’s left of the Axis and claim we’re the ones that “won the war”.

We fought on two fronts after all! No one else did that.

Except the Germans of course.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Even? Of course he did.

Washington faced considerable opposition about trade with England. There was no “of course” about i.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Washington faced considerable opposition about trade with England. There was no “of course” about i.

Of course he understood the importance of it and had all the popularity necessary to get it done.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

. Our President needs some training and education in the subject of trade between nations.

I don’t think he sees trade among nations as you think he does. Trade and commerce for him is always between companies and private entities notwithstanding the way he talks about trade deficits.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Of course he understood the importance of it and had all the popularity necessary to get it done

I don’t think we are saying the same thing. The post-war economy was zilch. Washington looked at continued trade with England at pre-war levels as the best way forward. Others ( I think including Jefferson) wanted to embargo England and deal with others.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Why is Reagan the exemplar? He didn't have to deal with anything like this, did he? The closest example would be the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, under Carter. Carter imposed a grain embargo on the Soviets for that invasion. Reagan reversed it.

Just that for many Reagan was Mr. Republican. Reagan was often cheered for speaking bluntly by the GOP, see "bombing starts in five minutes." This idea we need to vote like Russia wants and say what Russia wants isn't particularly Reagan. The idea we would cut any/all support for Ukraine does not fit Reagan at all.

 

[iuwclurker]

Why is Reagan the exemplar? He didn't have to deal with anything like this, did he? The closest example would be the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, under Carter. Carter imposed a grain embargo on the Soviets for that invasion. Reagan reversed it.

Easy. Listen to this again.

 

[GooglyMooglyWooglyBoogly]

Just that for many Reagan was Mr. Republican. Reagan was often cheered for speaking bluntly by the GOP, see "bombing starts in five minutes." This idea we need to vote like Russia wants and say what Russia wants isn't particularly Reagan. The idea we would cut any/all support for Ukraine does not fit Reagan at all.

Hmmmm.

I tire of of arguing with supporters of continued funding to Ukraine because no matter how it starts it always seems to end at lazy historical analogies.

Chamberlain, Reagan, etc.

 

[IUINSB]

Hmmmm.

I tire of of arguing with supporters of continued funding to Ukraine because no matter how it starts it always seems to end at lazy historical analogies.

Chamberlain, Reagan, etc.

Those who cannot remember the past...

 

[GooglyMooglyWooglyBoogly]

Those who cannot remember the past...

But it’s always a very specific past, is it not?

No one ever says,

“this is just like funding the Contras, a road to nowhere.”

“Why would we side with Nazi battalions in Ukraine, we hate Nazis.”

You can pull lazy historical analogies out of your ass to fit pretty much any argument.

 

[IUCrazy2]

Couple thoughts:

1. If commerce is the method by which peace is to be achieved, wouldn't getting into tariff trade wars be antithetical to that plan?

2. If name calling negotiating partners hampers the ability to get deals done, wouldn't calling one of the partners a "dictator" and saying he needs to be removed from office be problematic to negotiations?

 

[BradStevens]

Once more, the Chinese fight is WW2 locked down enough Japanese soldiers to allow our island hopping campaign to be functional if not almost successful.

WW2 was magnificent for American historical revisionism. Russia and China eat the bulk of the axis power and wrath. Like really to the point where it decimated their societies.

We come in at the 11th hour, mop what’s left of the Axis and claim we’re the ones that “won the war”.

We fought on two fronts after all! No one else did that.

Except the Germans of course.

You continue to surprise me with your takes.

 

[BradStevens]

Couple thoughts:

1. If commerce is the method by which peace is to be achieved, wouldn't getting into tariff trade wars be antithetical to that plan?

2. If name calling negotiating partners hampers the ability to get deals done, wouldn't calling one of the partners a "dictator" and saying he needs to be removed from office be problematic to negotiations?

Re (2), we have all the leverage w/r/t Ukraine, so Trump doesn't think it matters. But that point is, probably, why he doesn't call Putin one.

 

[Spartans9312]

It’s not Reagan’s Republican Party for foreign policy even slightly. It’s sickening.

It’s Obama’s foreign policy reincarnated

 

[DANC]

Correct, some have bone spurs.

Or asthma