Trump called Putin today to congratulate him on his election

[IUCrazy2]

Trump does stuff that everyone this side of the Kremlin tells him is stupid and counterproductive. I know that your recommendation to me is to take my partisan glasses off and try to see it clearly. For example, try to see it through your eyes. It is a worthwhile exercise. I am pretty much the last person to believe in conspiracy theories...they are hard to coordinate and nearly impossible to keep secret. But this conspiracy is less and less secret all the time. So take try taking your partisan lens off...imagine that Hillary was the repub and Trump the dem..,imagine what it would like to you.

It would look like to me the same as it did when Obama did it. We have consistently miscalculated Russia's goals when they have a playbook that they are very clearly playing from. And we all have fallen for some portion of their plan because that has been their goal.

In Foundations of Geopolitics, Dugin calls for the influence of the United States and Atlanticism to lose its influence in Eurasia and for Russia to rebuild its influence through annexations and alliances.[2]

The book declares that "the battle for the world rule of [ethnic] Russians" has not ended and Russia remains "the staging area of a new anti-bourgeois, anti-American revolution." The Eurasian Empire will be constructed "on the fundamental principle of the common enemy: the rejection of Atlanticism, strategic control of the USA, and the refusal to allow liberalvalues to dominate us."[9]

Military operations play relatively little role. The textbook believes in a sophisticated program of subversion, destabilization, and disinformation spearheaded by the Russian special services. The operations should be assisted by a tough, hard-headed utilization of Russia's gas, oil, and natural resources to bully and pressure other countries.[9]

The book states that "the maximum task [of the future] is the 'Finlandization' of all of Europe".[9]

In Europe:

• Germany should be offered the de facto political dominance over most Protestant and Catholic states located within Central and Eastern Europe. Kaliningrad oblastcould be given back to Germany. The book uses the term "Moscow-Berlin axis".[9]
• France should be encouraged to form a "Franco-German bloc" with Germany. Both countries have a "firm anti-Atlanticist tradition".[9]
• The United Kingdom should be cut off from Europe.[9]
• Finland should be absorbed into Russia. Southern Finland will be combined with the Republic of Karelia and northern Finland will be "donated to Murmansk Oblast".[9]
• Estonia should be given to Germany's sphere of influence.[9]
• Latvia and Lithuania should be given a "special status" in the Eurasian-Russian sphere.[9]
• Poland should be granted a "special status" in the Eurasian sphere.[9]
• Romania, Macedonia, "Serbian Bosnia" and Greece – "Orthodox collectivist East" – will unite with "Moscow the Third Rome" and reject the "rational-individualistic West".[9]
• Ukraine should be annexed by Russia because "Ukraine as a state has no geopolitical meaning, no particular cultural import or universal significance, no geographic uniqueness, no ethnic exclusiveness, its certain territorial ambitions represents an enormous danger for all of Eurasia and, without resolving the Ukrainian problem, it is in general senseless to speak about continental politics". Ukraine should not be allowed to remain independent, unless it is cordon sanitaire, which would be inadmissible.[9]

In the Middle East and Central Asia:

• The book stresses the "continental Russian-Islamic alliance" which lies "at the foundation of anti-Atlanticist strategy". The alliance is based on the "traditional character of Russian and Islamic civilization".
• Iran is a key ally. The book uses the term "Moscow-Tehran axis".[9]
• Armenia has a special role: It will serve as a "strategic base," and it is necessary to create "the [subsidiary] axis Moscow-Erevan-Teheran". Armenians "are an Aryan people … [like] the Iranians and the Kurds".[9]
• Azerbaijan could be "split up" or given to Iran.[9]
• Georgia should be dismembered. Abkhaziaand "United Ossetia" (which includes Georgia's South Ossetia) will be incorporated into Russia. Georgia's independent policies are unacceptable.[9]
• Russia needs to create "geopolitical shocks" within Turkey. These can be achieved by employing Kurds, Armenians and other minorities.[9]
• The book regards the Caucasus as a Russian territory, including "the eastern and northern shores of the Caspian (the territories of Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan)" and Central Asia (mentioning Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan).[9]

In Asia:

• China, which represents a danger to Russia, "must, to the maximum degree possible, be dismantled". Dugin suggests that Russia start by taking Tibet-Xinjiang-Mongolia-Manchuria as a security belt.[1] Russia should offer China help "in a southern direction – Indochina (except Vietnam), the Philippines, Indonesia, Australia" as geopolitical compensation.[9]
• Russia should manipulate Japanese politics by offering the Kuril Islands to Japan and provoking anti-Americanism.[9]
• Mongolia should be absorbed into Eurasia-Russia.[9]

The book emphasizes that Russia must spread Anti-Americanism everywhere: "the main 'scapegoat' will be precisely the U.S."

In the United States:

• Russia should use its special services within the borders of the United States to fuel instability and separatism, for instance, provoke "Afro-American racists". Russia should "introduce geopolitical disorder into internal American activity, encouraging all kinds of separatism and ethnic, social and racial conflicts, actively supporting all dissident movements – extremist, racist, and sectarian groups, thus destabilizing internal political processes in the U.S. It would also make sense simultaneously to support isolationist tendencies in American politics."[9]

The Eurasian Project could be expanded to South and Central America.[9]
​

This book was released in 1997 and is highly popular among the Russian military complex. You can go down this list and definitively see these actions occurring.

So how do I view this? Trump is being naive, just like Bush and Obama before him. I think he is being naive for different reasons, but we still end up at the same destination either way.

Russia is not, was not, and will not be a reliable partner as long as Putin is in control. They yearn to be the top dog again and to do that they need to knock us down.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Spoiler

nope--you didn't get it

No, I got it right. First of all, I don't think you need to try to apply probability theory to every single thing, but if you insist:

Spoiler: This adds nothing

A = Trump is compromised by the Russians
B = The American President congratulates the Russian President when he wins an election

If P(B) = 1, then P(B|A) = 1 by definition, so:
P(A|B) = P(B|A) * P(A) / P(B)
P(A|B) = 1 * P(A) / 1
P(A|B) = P(A)

Any time you add a conditional event that has an independent probability of 1, you don't change anything. It's meaningless information.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

We knew Trump was an idiot so that is not what we learn from this episode. An idiot does random stupid stuff. This was not random.

Sometimes there really isn’t anything of note to learn.

 

[iu_a_att]

No, I got it right. First of all, I don't think you need to try to apply probability theory to every single thing, but if you insist:

Spoiler: If you omit everything you learn nothing

You say:
A = Trump is compromised by the Russians
B = The American President congratulates the Russian President when he wins an election

If P(B) = 1, then P(B|A) = 1 by definition, so:
P(A|B) = P(B|A) * P(A) / P(B)
P(A|B) = 1 * P(A) / 1
P(A|B) = P(A)

Any time you add a conditional event that has an independent probability of 1, you don't change anything. It's meaningless information.
Indeed you are right..If all American presidents would: (1) congratulate Putin for his victory and not mention that; (2) the election was not free or fair; or (3) express outrage at the use of chemical weapons on our closest ally; or (4) express outrage at the interference in our elections your result follows.QED
If B is the event an American President would send the messages 1-4 to Putin then I claim P(B) is small. Clarity is good.

Do you know the story of Gaius Mucius Scaevola? Gaius speech that

"I am Gaius Mucius, a citizen of Rome. I came here as an enemy to kill my enemy, and I am as ready to die as I am to kill. We Romans act bravely and, when adversity strikes, we suffer bravely." He also declared that he was the first of three hundred Roman youths to volunteer for the task of assassinating Porsena at the risk of losing their own lives.[1]​

but it is not bravado that impresses Porsena. Any soldier might say such a thing. The key is what comes next:

"Watch", he is said to have declared, "so that you know how cheap the body is to men who have their eye on great glory". Mucius thrust his right hand into a fire which was lit for sacrifice and held it there without giving any indication of pain, thereby earning for himself and his descendants the cognomen Scaevola, meaning "left-handed". Porsena was shocked at the youth's bravery, and dismissed him from the Etruscan camp, free to return to Rome, saying "Go back, since you do more harm to yourself than me". At the same time, the king also sent ambassadors to Rome to offer peace.[2]​

The story is a great lesson in costly signalling. The fact that Scaevola burns his own hand off costs Porsena nothing...and yet it is very persuasive.

 

[iu_a_att]

Sometimes there really isn’t anything of note to learn.

Learning is hard and people are bad at it. They are particularly bad at learning things that don't cause them immediate pain or pleasure. When they do experience pain and pleasure they often learn the wrong lessons. You can probably think of dozens of examples from your military career to illustrate both points.

 

[iu_a_att]

It would look like to me the same as it did when Obama did it. We have consistently miscalculated Russia's goals when they have a playbook that they are very clearly playing from. And we all have fallen for some portion of their plan because that has been their goal.

In Foundations of Geopolitics, Dugin calls for the influence of the United States and Atlanticism to lose its influence in Eurasia and for Russia to rebuild its influence through annexations and alliances.[2]

The book declares that "the battle for the world rule of [ethnic] Russians" has not ended and Russia remains "the staging area of a new anti-bourgeois, anti-American revolution." The Eurasian Empire will be constructed "on the fundamental principle of the common enemy: the rejection of Atlanticism, strategic control of the USA, and the refusal to allow liberalvalues to dominate us."[9]

Military operations play relatively little role. The textbook believes in a sophisticated program of subversion, destabilization, and disinformation spearheaded by the Russian special services. The operations should be assisted by a tough, hard-headed utilization of Russia's gas, oil, and natural resources to bully and pressure other countries.[9]

The book states that "the maximum task [of the future] is the 'Finlandization' of all of Europe".[9]

In Europe:

• Germany should be offered the de facto political dominance over most Protestant and Catholic states located within Central and Eastern Europe. Kaliningrad oblastcould be given back to Germany. The book uses the term "Moscow-Berlin axis".[9]
• France should be encouraged to form a "Franco-German bloc" with Germany. Both countries have a "firm anti-Atlanticist tradition".[9]
• The United Kingdom should be cut off from Europe.[9]
• Finland should be absorbed into Russia. Southern Finland will be combined with the Republic of Karelia and northern Finland will be "donated to Murmansk Oblast".[9]
• Estonia should be given to Germany's sphere of influence.[9]
• Latvia and Lithuania should be given a "special status" in the Eurasian-Russian sphere.[9]
• Poland should be granted a "special status" in the Eurasian sphere.[9]
• Romania, Macedonia, "Serbian Bosnia" and Greece – "Orthodox collectivist East" – will unite with "Moscow the Third Rome" and reject the "rational-individualistic West".[9]
• Ukraine should be annexed by Russia because "Ukraine as a state has no geopolitical meaning, no particular cultural import or universal significance, no geographic uniqueness, no ethnic exclusiveness, its certain territorial ambitions represents an enormous danger for all of Eurasia and, without resolving the Ukrainian problem, it is in general senseless to speak about continental politics". Ukraine should not be allowed to remain independent, unless it is cordon sanitaire, which would be inadmissible.[9]

In the Middle East and Central Asia:

• The book stresses the "continental Russian-Islamic alliance" which lies "at the foundation of anti-Atlanticist strategy". The alliance is based on the "traditional character of Russian and Islamic civilization".
• Iran is a key ally. The book uses the term "Moscow-Tehran axis".[9]
• Armenia has a special role: It will serve as a "strategic base," and it is necessary to create "the [subsidiary] axis Moscow-Erevan-Teheran". Armenians "are an Aryan people … [like] the Iranians and the Kurds".[9]
• Azerbaijan could be "split up" or given to Iran.[9]
• Georgia should be dismembered. Abkhaziaand "United Ossetia" (which includes Georgia's South Ossetia) will be incorporated into Russia. Georgia's independent policies are unacceptable.[9]
• Russia needs to create "geopolitical shocks" within Turkey. These can be achieved by employing Kurds, Armenians and other minorities.[9]
• The book regards the Caucasus as a Russian territory, including "the eastern and northern shores of the Caspian (the territories of Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan)" and Central Asia (mentioning Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan).[9]

In Asia:

• China, which represents a danger to Russia, "must, to the maximum degree possible, be dismantled". Dugin suggests that Russia start by taking Tibet-Xinjiang-Mongolia-Manchuria as a security belt.[1] Russia should offer China help "in a southern direction – Indochina (except Vietnam), the Philippines, Indonesia, Australia" as geopolitical compensation.[9]
• Russia should manipulate Japanese politics by offering the Kuril Islands to Japan and provoking anti-Americanism.[9]
• Mongolia should be absorbed into Eurasia-Russia.[9]

The book emphasizes that Russia must spread Anti-Americanism everywhere: "the main 'scapegoat' will be precisely the U.S."

In the United States:

• Russia should use its special services within the borders of the United States to fuel instability and separatism, for instance, provoke "Afro-American racists". Russia should "introduce geopolitical disorder into internal American activity, encouraging all kinds of separatism and ethnic, social and racial conflicts, actively supporting all dissident movements – extremist, racist, and sectarian groups, thus destabilizing internal political processes in the U.S. It would also make sense simultaneously to support isolationist tendencies in American politics."[9]

The Eurasian Project could be expanded to South and Central America.[9]
​

This book was released in 1997 and is highly popular among the Russian military complex. You can go down this list and definitively see these actions occurring.

So how do I view this? Trump is being naive, just like Bush and Obama before him. I think he is being naive for different reasons, but we still end up at the same destination either way.

Russia is not, was not, and will not be a reliable partner as long as Putin is in control. They yearn to be the top dog again and to do that they need to knock us down.

That is all very long...will try to get through it later. For now though I would say the critical things we are learning have nothing to do with Russia...we are learning about Trump. Let me tell you what the Russians (and us) should learn from Trump's repeated interactions with the Russians. The Russians should learn that they are invited to intervene in American politics and society in order to help Trump maintain power. If they want to interfere with our voting, with our social media...heck, if they want to assassinate people here...all that is just fine and dandy if it helps Trump maintain power. In return for their help Trump will turn a blind eye to all the stuff they want to do elsewhere in the world to pursue their interests. That is the message I think Trump has sent and is sending.

 

[IUCrazy2]

That is all very long...will try to get through it later. For now though I would say the critical things we are learning have nothing to do with Russia...we are learning about Trump. Let me tell you what the Russians (and us) should learn from Trump's repeated interactions with the Russians. The Russians should learn that they are invited to intervene in American politics and society in order to help Trump maintain power. If they want to interfere with our voting, with our social media...heck, if they want to assassinate people here...all that is just fine and dandy if it helps Trump maintain power. In return for their help Trump will turn a blind eye to all the stuff they want to do elsewhere in the world to pursue their interests. That is the message I think Trump has sent and is sending.

Ok, but we have responded the same way through multiple administrations. Take the chemical weapon assasination, we handed Britain evidence that they (Russia) were involved in the murder of around a dozen dissidents. Knowing this, we were still dealing with Putin in the same manner. Trump has financial reasons to turn a blind eye? See $500,000 speeches and Uranium One.

I reject the notion that Trump has invented the wheel on this stuff. Frankly, I do not think he is smart enough to pull off half the things you all like to accuse him of. I think he views Putin much in the same way that Bush and Obama did. They see the potential there of a partner on some issues and they worry about what restarting a conflict with Russia could mean. So they try carrot after carrot and the smallest diameter of sticks to bring him along. All the while, they are all being played for fools.

Really, read the blurb I posted. You can see the fruits of that Russian plan popping up all over the place. That is not a coincidence. I believe the Chinese have a similar plan they are also trying to implement. This dust up around Trump plays exactly into their hands. If I am them, I intentionally leak that both candidates are getting Russian help in 2020. The goal is to completely undermine our faith in the system. They have been wildly successful as of late.

 

[iu_a_att]

Ok, but we have responded the same way through multiple administrations. Take the chemical weapon assasination, we handed Britain evidence that they (Russia) were involved in the murder of around a dozen dissidents. Knowing this, we were still dealing with Putin in the same manner. Trump has financial reasons to turn a blind eye? See $500,000 speeches and Uranium One.

I reject the notion that Trump has invented the wheel on this stuff. Frankly, I do not think he is smart enough to pull off half the things you all like to accuse him of. I think he views Putin much in the same way that Bush and Obama did. They see the potential there of a partner on some issues and they worry about what restarting a conflict with Russia could mean. So they try carrot after carrot and the smallest diameter of sticks to bring him along. All the while, they are all being played for fools.

Really, read the blurb I posted. You can see the fruits of that Russian plan popping up all over the place. That is not a coincidence. I believe the Chinese have a similar plan they are also trying to implement. This dust up around Trump plays exactly into their hands. If I am them, I intentionally leak that both candidates are getting Russian help in 2020. The goal is to completely undermine our faith in the system. They have been wildly successful as of late.

I will take a look a bit later...it looks long but interesting and stuff I should know. I don't see anything at all benign in Trump's posture towards the Russians...nothing in the least bit similar to what previous Presidents have done. Russia is a malevolent force in the world and Trump is signalling to them that the doors are wide open for them to act malevolently here. Trump invented the wheel on that last part.

 

[Noodle]

Really? I would say that when Trump's advisors wrote in capital letters on his briefing book "DO NOT CONGRATULATE" and Trump does any way then it is a big deal. It was not pro forma according to any form that any previous President might have followed.

The scandal here is that someone in the Administration leaked the information about the advice and that Trump did not heed the advice. Whoever leaked that information should be summarily fired, walked out the door and then investigated for criminal conduct. I am no fan of Trump, but this kind of crap has got to stop.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

The scandal here is that someone in the Administration leaked the information about the advice and that Trump did not heed the advice. Whoever leaked that information should be summarily fired, walked out the door and then investigated for criminal conduct. I am no fan of Trump, but this kind of crap has got to stop.

I haven't paid attention, do we know it came from the White House? I could see Putin wanting that call released for his internal consumption.

 

[Rockfish1]

The scandal here is that someone in the Administration leaked the information about the advice and that Trump did not heed the advice. Whoever leaked that information should be summarily fired, walked out the door and then investigated for criminal conduct. I am no fan of Trump, but this kind of crap has got to stop.

The leak presumably came from one of a small group of people close enough to Trump to have seen his briefing papers. Trump likely doesn’t know who the leaker is, but he almost certainly knows the leaker pretty well.

 

[Rockfish1]

I haven't paid attention, do we know it came from the White House? I could see Putin wanting that call released for his internal consumption.

Russia released its own read out of the call, but presumably had no agents inside the White House to see the briefing papers.

 

[Rockfish1]

Ok, but we have responded the same way through multiple administrations. Take the chemical weapon assasination, we handed Britain evidence that they (Russia) were involved in the murder of around a dozen dissidents. Knowing this, we were still dealing with Putin in the same manner. Trump has financial reasons to turn a blind eye? See $500,000 speeches and Uranium One.

I reject the notion that Trump has invented the wheel on this stuff. Frankly, I do not think he is smart enough to pull off half the things you all like to accuse him of. I think he views Putin much in the same way that Bush and Obama did. They see the potential there of a partner on some issues and they worry about what restarting a conflict with Russia could mean. So they try carrot after carrot and the smallest diameter of sticks to bring him along. All the while, they are all being played for fools.

Really, read the blurb I posted. You can see the fruits of that Russian plan popping up all over the place. That is not a coincidence. I believe the Chinese have a similar plan they are also trying to implement. This dust up around Trump plays exactly into their hands. If I am them, I intentionally leak that both candidates are getting Russian help in 2020. The goal is to completely undermine our faith in the system. They have been wildly successful as of late.

When I hear someone referencing the Uranium One pseudo-scandal, I immediately know that the person is misinformed.

 

[iu_a_att]

The leak presumably came from one of a small group of people close enough to Trump to have seen his briefing papers. Trump likely doesn’t know who the leaker is, but he almost certainly knows the leaker pretty well.

Mattis? Pompeo? Kelly? Torture Lady at CIA? Who could it be?

 

[Noodle]

Russia released its own read out of the call, but presumably had no agents inside the White House to see the briefing papers.

"presumably" LOL

 

[iu_a_att]

How hard is this?
Lindsey Graham:
Congratulations to Russian President Putin on his Fake Victory in the Fake Election.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

"presumably" LOL

That reminds me of when Putin offered to help Trump out by releasing a transcript of Trump's Oval Office meeting with the diplomat. Best geopolitical troll job I've ever seen.

 

[DrHoops]

People who are not guilty don’t act like this. It’s as simple as that.

I think it’s even more telling that his advisors told him to publicly condemn the agents being poisoned and Trump refused to do that either.

 

[DrHoops]

This is all cool with The Donald!

Meanwhile back in the real world Russia is preparing worse attacks on us

On March 15, the Department of Homeland Security together with the FBI announced that Russian government hackers infiltrated critical infrastructures in the U.S.—including “energy, nuclear, commercial facilities, water, aviation, and critical manufacturing sectors.” According to the DHS-FBI report, malicious Russian activities have been ongoing since at least March 2016. The Russian malware, which has been sitting in the control systems of various U.S. utilities, allows the Russians to shut off power or sabotage the energy grids. And they have done it before: The same malware that took down Ukraine’s electrical grid in 2015 and 2016 has been detected in U.S. utilities. The potential damage of a nationwide black out—let’s say on Election Day—would be significant, to say the least. And while Russian trolls and bots have captured public attention, they are already yesterday’s game. As I write in a recent Brookings paper, the future of political warfare is in the cyber domain.
The disinformation tools used by Moscow against the West are still fairly basic: They rely on exploiting human gullibility, vulnerabilities in the social media ecosystem, and lack of awareness among the public, the media, and policymakers. In the very near term, however, technological advancements in artificial intelligence and cyber capabilities will open opportunities for malicious actors to undermine democracies more covertly and effectively than what we have seen so far. Increasingly sophisticated cybertools, tested primarily in Ukraine, have already infected Western systems, as evidenced by the DHS-FBI report. An all-out attack on Western critical infrastructure seems inevitable.​

 

[DrHoops]

Russia has as many, if not more nukes as the United States with the capacity to deliver them.

I think Romney said Russia was our "number one geopolitical foe". That is the dispute. Russia is the toy poodle that barks and snarls continuously as you walk buy. China is the Rottweiler that simply looks at you with the "if ever I slip this leash, I will eat you". Take a look at the size of their economies. Take a look at the size of their military. China has long hacked into our systems and stolen IP from our corporations (and government). I would consider the rottweiler our top foe, but if others worry more about the poodle I guess I can't argue the point.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Russia has as many, if not more nukes as the United States with the capacity to deliver them.

OMG, you are right. We should take them seriously and form a House Committee to seek out anyone who has ever had association with the Russians and hound them extensively. Those people should not be allowed to work.

Yes, they have nukes. Unless one believes Putin has no interest in living, they are as useless as they are in that old SNL skit I linked in the gun thread.

 

[DrHoops]

Well what is the consequence to interfering with and coordinating attacks on our democratic process? Nothing? Just live with it?

OMG, you are right. We should take them seriously and form a House Committee to seek out anyone who has ever had association with the Russians and hound them extensively. Those people should not be allowed to work.

Yes, they have nukes. Unless one believes Putin has no interest in living, they are as useless as they are in that old SNL skit I linked in the gun thread.

 

[toastedbread]

Whoever leaked that information should be summarily fired, walked out the door and then investigated for criminal conduct.

I haven't paid attention, do we know it came from the White House? I could see Putin wanting that call released for his internal consumption.

The leak presumably came from one of a small group of people close enough to Trump to have seen his briefing papers. Trump likely doesn’t know who the leaker is, but he almost certainly knows the leaker pretty well.

Mattis? Pompeo? Kelly? Torture Lady at CIA? Who could it be?

Has anyone considered that it's entirely plausible if not probable that Trump himself is the leaker?

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Well what is the consequence to interfering with and coordinating attacks on our democratic process? Nothing? Just live with it?

Never said anything close to that. I was saying why I thought Romney was wrong that Russia is our top geopolitical foe.

We need quiet strong leadership right now, so we are screwed. The usual sanctions and gathering allies to use sanctions would be my approach.

 

[iu_a_att]

OMG, you are right. We should take them seriously and form a House Committee to seek out anyone who has ever had association with the Russians and hound them extensively. Those people should not be allowed to work.

Yes, they have nukes. Unless one believes Putin has no interest in living, they are as useless as they are in that old SNL skit I linked in the gun thread.

Nothing bad is going to happen to Putin as long as the Donald sits in the oval office. Heck, as long as Putin doesn't nuke any Trump properties and helps swing the electoral map to the GOP Trump and his base will be cool with it. If Putin took out San Francisco the evangelicals would even say it was an act of God. Yeah, Lindsey Graham would put out a tweet: .

 

[iu_a_att]

Has anyone considered that it's entirely plausible if not probable that Trump himself is the leaker?

yes...see above

 

[CO. Hoosier]

That is all very long...will try to get through it later. For now though I would say the critical things we are learning have nothing to do with Russia...we are learning about Trump. Let me tell you what the Russians (and us) should learn from Trump's repeated interactions with the Russians. The Russians should learn that they are invited to intervene in American politics and society in order to help Trump maintain power. If they want to interfere with our voting, with our social media...heck, if they want to assassinate people here...all that is just fine and dandy if it helps Trump maintain power. In return for their help Trump will turn a blind eye to all the stuff they want to do elsewhere in the world to pursue their interests. That is the message I think Trump has sent and is sending.

I think you are flat dead wrong. The Russian economy rests on one thing—energy.

Trump deliberately and systematically set the US on a course to be the dominant energy exporter in the world. This will destroy the Russian economy. Putin doesn’t like that. The useful idiots in the Resist movement support Putin on this. We are supplying arms to Ukraine and causing Putin problems in Syria. I think this telephone call is a nothingburger. (Obama did the same) Trump isn’t going to change energy or any other policy.

 

[iu_a_att]

My guess is that most of us posting here getting pretty pissed off about the stuff that stimulates us to post. The research suggests this makes it harder for us to actually evaluate the arguments being made by others. The literature on spillover effects.

As this research shows, anger triggered by a prior, unrelated experience that, from an objective perspective, should not influence our current judgments or decisions can make us unreceptive to what others have to say. In related research, Scott Wiltermuth of the University of Southern California and Larissa Tiedens of Stanford University found that anger triggered by something unrelated to the decision at hand also affects how we evaluate others’ ideas. Many jobs include the task of evaluating the ideas of others, including our colleagues, customers, employees, friends, and family members.​

 

[Bill4411]

I think you are flat dead wrong. The Russian economy rests on one thing—energy.

Trump deliberately and systematically set the US on a course to be the dominant energy exporter in the world. This will destroy the Russian economy. Putin doesn’t like that. The useful idiots in the Resist movement support Putin on this. We are supplying arms to Ukraine and causing Putin problems in Syria. I think this telephone call is a nothingburger. (Obama did the same) Trump isn’t going to change energy or any other policy.

I did not realize that Trump is actually trying to destroy Russia. What an amazing strategy by DJT and the Republican Party.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

My guess is that most of us posting here getting pretty pissed off about the stuff that stimulates us to post. The research suggests this makes it harder for us to actually evaluate the arguments being made by others. The literature on spillover effects.

As this research shows, anger triggered by a prior, unrelated experience that, from an objective perspective, should not influence our current judgments or decisions can make us unreceptive to what others have to say. In related research, Scott Wiltermuth of the University of Southern California and Larissa Tiedens of Stanford University found that anger triggered by something unrelated to the decision at hand also affects how we evaluate others’ ideas. Many jobs include the task of evaluating the ideas of others, including our colleagues, customers, employees, friends, and family members.​

I mostly post about things I find interesting. I don't really get pissed at events. What pisses me off are interactions. Stupid people piss me off. Dishonest people piss me off.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I did not realize that Trump is actually trying to destroy Russia. What an amazing strategy by DJT and the Republican Party.

According to CO.H, Trump is playing 23-dimensional chess.

 

[iu_a_att]

I mostly post about things I find interesting. I don't really get pissed at events. What pisses me off are interactions. Stupid people piss me off. Dishonest people piss me off.

Well if you want someone to make stupid decisions, piss them off.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Well if you want someone to make stupid decisions, piss them off.

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Most stupid people don't need prompting.

 

[iu_a_att]

Most stupid people don't need prompting.

How many are just congenitally pissed?

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

How many are just congenitally pissed?

I don't know, but that kind of turns your theory backwards, doesn't it?

 

[iu_a_att]

I don't know, but that kind of turns your theory backwards, doesn't it?

Am I lost? I thought the theory is that being pissed makes it hard to evaluate other people's ideas: i.e., stupid. If I want you to act stupid I make you pissed. If someone is congenitally pissed then they will congenitally struggle to evaluate other people's ideas--they will be routinely stupid too.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Am I lost? I thought the theory is that being pissed makes it hard to evaluate other people's ideas: i.e., stupid. If I want you to act stupid I make you pissed. If someone is congenitally pissed then they will congenitally struggle to evaluate other people's ideas--they will be routinely stupid too.

Maybe, but I got confused, because you weren't responding to me talking about pissing people off, but rather about being pissed.

 

[iu_a_att]

Maybe, but I got confused, because you weren't responding to me talking about pissing people off, but rather about being pissed.

Well, from a pragmatic perspective, I was talking in the abstract about how hard it is for people who are pissed off to listen to other people's ideas...even when they are pissed off for some completely different reason. There are lots of pissed people on the message boards these days.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Well, from a pragmatic perspective, I was talking in the abstract about how hard it is for people who are pissed off to listen to other people's ideas...even when they are pissed off for some completely different reason. There are lots of pissed people on the message boards these days.

Just tell me whether you think I'm stupid or Doc's stupid.

 

[Bill4411]

According to CO.H, Trump is playing 23-dimensional chess.

I thought that is what he was doing with Stormy?