To paraphrase Simon and Garfunkel

Marvin the Martian

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Where have you gone William Buckley
our nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

This story from the National Review details Buckley's fight against the conspiracy theorist John Birch Society. The Birchers may not exist so much any longer, but their wild conspiracies do. https://www.nationalreview.com/2017...n-birch-society-history-conflict-robert-welch

This one covers Buckley as well as Reagan battling JBS but is behind the WaPo firewall, https://www.washingtonpost.com/hist...h-society-qanon-reagan-republicans-goldwater/

From that second one on Reagan it says:

But in September 1965, as buzz about him and the John Birch Society grew, Reagan realized that he’d have to distance himself from the group. “I am not a member,” Reagan declared at a Republican fundraiser. “I have no intention of becoming a member. I am not going to solicit their support.” Reagan added that a “lunatic fringe” had infiltrated the society and that he was in “great disagreement” with Welch.​

As to Buckley, the second article has this paragraph:

“One continues to wonder,” Buckley wrote, “how it is that the membership of the John Birch Society tolerates such paranoid and unpatriotic drivel.” Hate mail and subscription cancellations from outraged Birchers flooded the National Review’s office. So Buckley doubled down in follow-up columns, suggesting that Welch represented the membership’s true feelings after all.​
I don't know who has the power to play Buckley or Reagan today. Clearly not Romney or Will. But too many in the GOP have gone full-on conspiracy theorists. Sure, it may not be that people like Eisenhower were communists as the JBS believed, but they now believe people like that are part of a deep state. I don't see much of a difference. And thinking that leaders are Satan-worshipping child sex ring members is even a whole new layer of crazy. Hopefully someone steps up and sends the lunatic fringe back to the fringe. It is a bad sign when the lunatic fringe is mainstream. Buckley and Reagan knew that.
 

mcmurtry66

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Where have you gone William Buckley
our nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

This story from the National Review details Buckley's fight against the conspiracy theorist John Birch Society. The Birchers may not exist so much any longer, but their wild conspiracies do. https://www.nationalreview.com/2017...n-birch-society-history-conflict-robert-welch

This one covers Buckley as well as Reagan battling JBS but is behind the WaPo firewall, https://www.washingtonpost.com/hist...h-society-qanon-reagan-republicans-goldwater/

From that second one on Reagan it says:

But in September 1965, as buzz about him and the John Birch Society grew, Reagan realized that he’d have to distance himself from the group. “I am not a member,” Reagan declared at a Republican fundraiser. “I have no intention of becoming a member. I am not going to solicit their support.” Reagan added that a “lunatic fringe” had infiltrated the society and that he was in “great disagreement” with Welch.​

As to Buckley, the second article has this paragraph:

“One continues to wonder,” Buckley wrote, “how it is that the membership of the John Birch Society tolerates such paranoid and unpatriotic drivel.” Hate mail and subscription cancellations from outraged Birchers flooded the National Review’s office. So Buckley doubled down in follow-up columns, suggesting that Welch represented the membership’s true feelings after all.​
I don't know who has the power to play Buckley or Reagan today. Clearly not Romney or Will. But too many in the GOP have gone full-on conspiracy theorists. Sure, it may not be that people like Eisenhower were communists as the JBS believed, but they now believe people like that are part of a deep state. I don't see much of a difference. And thinking that leaders are Satan-worshipping child sex ring members is even a whole new layer of crazy. Hopefully someone steps up and sends the lunatic fringe back to the fringe. It is a bad sign when the lunatic fringe is mainstream. Buckley and Reagan knew that.
Romney came out today (maybe yesterday) and opined that if trump runs in 2024 he’d win the gop nomination.

I just don’t understand that. How do you back a guy that lost by ten million votes. Even if you support and like him he’s demonstrated he’s not viable
 

HooDatGuy

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William F Buckley/ Milton Friedman conservatism only appealed to a select few with college degrees.

Republicans needed to dumb down their politics to the level of the Democrats to cast out a wider net, lest they never win an election again.
 

Bulk VanderHuge

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William F Buckley/ Milton Friedman conservatism only appealed to a select few with college degrees.

Republicans needed to dumb down their politics to the level of the Democrats to cast out a wider net, lest they never win an election again.
It doesn't get much dumber than this:

republican-presidential-candidate-donald-trump-hugs-the-news-photo-617806568-1560614003.jpg
 
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IUINSB

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William F Buckley/ Milton Friedman conservatism only appealed to a select few with college degrees.

Republicans needed to dumb down their politics to the level of the Democrats to cast out a wider net, lest they never win an election again.

Dumb down!?! I hope it doesn't get any dumber than storming the capitol.

Both parties need to take out the trash.
 

CO. Hoosier

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Romney came out today (maybe yesterday) and opined that if trump runs in 2024 he’d win the gop nomination.

I just don’t understand that. How do you back a guy that lost by ten million votes. Even if you support and like him he’s demonstrated he’s not viable

I would vote for Trump again. I don't see that as "backing a guy". I see it as backing a way of governing. We need a government not driven by special interests, money, unaccountable bureaucratic momentum, and influence peddling. If somebody else would take up that position I would back them because as you say Trump is not a nice guy.

As far as fringe is concerned, some even handed accountability would go a long way towards stopping all fringe. Left wing fringe is accepted, nurtured and protected by the institutions that are responsible for holding fringes accountable--political parties and the press. I'm old enough to remember Falwell being universally condemned by all for opining that 9-11 was the result of abortion, homosexuality, and otherwise loose morals. When Democrats say that the horrible Texas disaster was because we don't have the Green New Deal, everybody center-left agrees or yawns. Ya wanna talk about the protected left wing fringe saying cops have a genocidal plan to kill blacks? That fringe was and is responsible for terrible things.
 

jet812

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Romney came out today (maybe yesterday) and opined that if trump runs in 2024 he’d win the gop nomination.

I just don’t understand that. How do you back a guy that lost by ten million votes. Even if you support and like him he’s demonstrated he’s not viable
Banking on the Dims f’ing up the next 4 years & trotting another crappy candidate out there. Biden was only good enough because Trump was so bad, I’ll be surprised if anyone is clamoring for more Joe or Kamala in 4 years. I hope I’m wrong & they do a great job. As of today, who else is either party going to put out there?
 
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mcmurtry66

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I would vote for Trump again. I don't see that as "backing a guy". I see it as backing a way of governing. We need a government not driven by special interests, money, unaccountable bureaucratic momentum, and influence peddling. If somebody else would take up that position I would back them because as you say Trump is not a nice guy.

As far as fringe is concerned, some even handed accountability would go a long way towards stopping all fringe. Left wing fringe is accepted, nurtured and protected by the institutions that are responsible for holding fringes accountable--political parties and the press. I'm old enough to remember Falwell being universally condemned by all for opining that 9-11 was the result of abortion, homosexuality, and otherwise loose morals. When Democrats say that the horrible Texas disaster was because we don't have the Green New Deal, everybody center-left agrees or yawns. Ya wanna talk about the protected left wing fringe saying cops have a genocidal plan to kill blacks? That fringe was and is responsible for terrible things.
Jet captures my sentiment in this thread. It's not about supporting Trump and his policies it's that he's a demonstrated loser - against a cadaver and a detestable running mate. IMO the party needs to move forward with someone new in 2024. The idea of limiting votes and gerrymandering isn't a strategy as compared to figuring out ways to expand the base
 

twenty02

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Jet captures my sentiment in this thread. It's not about supporting Trump and his policies it's that he's a demonstrated loser - against a cadaver and a detestable running mate. IMO the party needs to move forward with someone new in 2024. The idea of limiting votes and gerrymandering isn't a strategy as compared to figuring out ways to expand the base


I imagine DeSantis will be an early front-runner. Can do the proper wink and nod to the Trump base, has a quasi populist bent to his politics, but doesn't have the extreme personality defects. Seems fairly popular in FL right now.
 

INRanger27

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I imagine DeSantis will be an early front-runner. Can do the proper wink and nod to the Trump base, has a quasi populist bent to his politics, but doesn't have the extreme personality defects. Seems fairly popular in FL right now.
He’d likely get my vote unless the Dems ran somebody very moderate.
 
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CO. Hoosier

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Jet captures my sentiment in this thread. It's not about supporting Trump and his policies it's that he's a demonstrated loser - against a cadaver and a detestable running mate. IMO the party needs to move forward with someone new in 2024. The idea of limiting votes and gerrymandering isn't a strategy as compared to figuring out ways to expand the base

Can’t win without Trump’s base. I would rather not see it as Trump’s base but for better or worse, Trump is seen as the center of the political divide. If Trump were out of the picture, there are many GOP possibilities. For now, if you aren’t with Trump many see you as a problem. Don’t know how to fix that.
 
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INRanger27

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I would vote for Trump again. I don't see that as "backing a guy". I see it as backing a way of governing. We need a government not driven by special interests, money, unaccountable bureaucratic momentum, and influence peddling. If somebody else would take up that position I would back them because as you say Trump is not a nice guy.

As far as fringe is concerned, some even handed accountability would go a long way towards stopping all fringe. Left wing fringe is accepted, nurtured and protected by the institutions that are responsible for holding fringes accountable--political parties and the press. I'm old enough to remember Falwell being universally condemned by all for opining that 9-11 was the result of abortion, homosexuality, and otherwise loose morals. When Democrats say that the horrible Texas disaster was because we don't have the Green New Deal, everybody center-left agrees or yawns. Ya wanna talk about the protected left wing fringe saying cops have a genocidal plan to kill blacks? That fringe was and is responsible for terrible things.
I echo your thoughts on the lunatic left wing and how they are treated very differently. I also echo your idea of the idea of Trump and a non-swamp government.

But that’s where it comes off the rails. I diverge on whether or not I’d cast a vote for Trump. I cannot excuse his behavior on the 6th nor can I overlook how qualified and experienced people ran away from his cabinet like they were being paid to do so. His presidency set conservatism back by a decade and his behavior at the end made all of us Never Trumpers right - and we didn’t want to be right.
 

Marvin the Martian

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I would vote for Trump again. I don't see that as "backing a guy". I see it as backing a way of governing. We need a government not driven by special interests, money, unaccountable bureaucratic momentum, and influence peddling. If somebody else would take up that position I would back them because as you say Trump is not a nice guy.

As far as fringe is concerned, some even handed accountability would go a long way towards stopping all fringe. Left wing fringe is accepted, nurtured and protected by the institutions that are responsible for holding fringes accountable--political parties and the press. I'm old enough to remember Falwell being universally condemned by all for opining that 9-11 was the result of abortion, homosexuality, and otherwise loose morals. When Democrats say that the horrible Texas disaster was because we don't have the Green New Deal, everybody center-left agrees or yawns. Ya wanna talk about the protected left wing fringe saying cops have a genocidal plan to kill blacks? That fringe was and is responsible for terrible things.

Do you have many references that say Texas would have been prevented from the green new deal? I have seen references that wind turbines did not cause the disaster, which is a totally indisputable fact and isn't the same thing. If people did say that it would have been prevented, they were wrong. I would be curious about who said it, whoever it was is probably FRINGE whereas Falwell worked his way into the center of the GOP.
 

mcmurtry66

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I imagine DeSantis will be an early front-runner. Can do the proper wink and nod to the Trump base, has a quasi populist bent to his politics, but doesn't have the extreme personality defects. Seems fairly popular in FL right now.
Good call.
 

TheOriginalHappyGoat

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Do you have many references that say Texas would have been prevented from the green new deal? I have seen references that wind turbines did not cause the disaster, which is a totally indisputable fact and isn't the same thing. If people did say that it would have been prevented, they were wrong. I would be curious about who said it, whoever it was is probably FRINGE whereas Falwell worked his way into the center of the GOP.
Of course he doesn't have sources. It's hard to play the false equivalency game if people expect you to show your work.
 

mcmurtry66

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I imagine DeSantis will be an early front-runner. Can do the proper wink and nod to the Trump base, has a quasi populist bent to his politics, but doesn't have the extreme personality defects. Seems fairly popular in FL right now.
DeSantis has that presidential pedigree as well. yale undergrad harvard law. naval justice school.
 

Marvin the Martian

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Of course he doesn't have sources. It's hard to play the false equivalency game if people expect you to show your work.

We'll see. I have no problem saying that anyone from the left who said the green new deal would have prevented the disaster is wrong. It is that simple, they are wrong. I don't get why so many Republicans refuse to say that about people equally wrong.
 

INRanger27

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We'll see. I have no problem saying that anyone from the left who said the green new deal would have prevented the disaster is wrong. It is that simple, they are wrong. I don't get why so many Republicans refuse to say that about people equally wrong.
Marv, very few people can point to someone wearing their jersey and say “shut up - you’re wrong.”
 

Courtsensetwo

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In fact, Ronny's may be worse.

Rudy started for a place much higher on the scale of respectability after 911 then got entangled with Trump and started doing really dumb shit landing himself as a pathetic lumpy laughingstock who is going to spend the rest of his days fighting off civil suits.

Ronny starts from no such position of national respect, has gotten entanged with Trump and started doing really dumb shit like trying to get an actual GOP convention in Jax, manipulating Covid data, flags half staff for Rush...etc. He is just getting started on his tour of self-destruction.
 

Marvin the Martian

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Marv, very few people can point to someone wearing their jersey and say “shut up - you’re wrong.”
Let me add, I haven't looked at the Cuomo thread since my return but I would hope Democrats aren't defending him. I haven't studied his issues carefully but reading the generic accounts show he should be removed from office.
 
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INRanger27

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Let me add, I haven't looked at the Cuomo thread since my return but I would hope Democrats aren't defending him. I haven't studied his issues carefully but reading the generic accounts show he should be removed from office.
I would suspect you’re right - but it goes to a larger point about media bias and how they really skewed the story to be a “Trump failed” story when in reality we live in a republic and a federation and even though it became quickly obvious that COVID handling should be shared across the federal government (overall strategy, vaccine discovery funding, etc) and state level (local guidelines and lockdown planning/execution).

Reports about how disastrous the NY decision to load the nursing homes and LTCFs started to emerge by last summer but were completely ignored by media, including formerly reputable outfits like CNN, that sought to use COVID as a way to get Trump out of office. The data was obvious then and it’s even more obvious now that Cuomo really ****ed up - but instead left wing media parades him out there like he’s Audie Murphy. It’s sickening.
 

HooDatGuy

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In fact, Ronny's may be worse.

Rudy started for a place much higher on the scale of respectability after 911 then got entangled with Trump and started doing really dumb shit landing himself as a pathetic lumpy laughingstock who is going to spend the rest of his days fighting off civil suits.

Ronny starts from no such position of national respect, has gotten entanged with Trump and started doing really dumb shit like trying to get an actual GOP convention in Jax, manipulating Covid data, flags half staff for Rush...etc. He is just getting started on his tour of self-destruction.

The Covid data stuff has been debunked time and again. As a part time resident you should know that.

Listen to Moskowitz and don’t buy into the conspiracy theories:


The rest of your gripes seems to come from him being friendly with Trump. Get over it.
 
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Marvin the Martian

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I would suspect you’re right - but it goes to a larger point about media bias and how they really skewed the story to be a “Trump failed” story when in reality we live in a republic and a federation and even though it became quickly obvious that COVID handling should be shared across the federal government (overall strategy, vaccine discovery funding, etc) and state level (local guidelines and lockdown planning/execution).

Reports about how disastrous the NY decision to load the nursing homes and LTCFs started to emerge by last summer but were completely ignored by media, including formerly reputable outfits like CNN, that sought to use COVID as a way to get Trump out of office. The data was obvious then and it’s even more obvious now that Cuomo really ****ed up - but instead left wing media parades him out there like he’s Audie Murphy. It’s sickening.

Sending those patients to LTC's was a screw-up. To only slightly defend NY, there were a lot of bad choices with the hospitals overcrowded. What do we do with people that we need out of hospitals and nowhere to go.

It appears no one from any side was happy with the way the Comfort was used. NY shares in the blame for that (and it appears the military does as well). Were NY Nursing Homes Full of COVID-19 Patients While Hospital Ship Sat Empty? (snopes.com)

So I get that NY panicked and made a bad choice, but the filling of hospitals was a bad situation that didn't offer great choices. But there is no excuse for fudging the data.
 

INRanger27

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Sending those patients to LTC's was a screw-up. To only slightly defend NY, there were a lot of bad choices with the hospitals overcrowded. What do we do with people that we need out of hospitals and nowhere to go.

It appears no one from any side was happy with the way the Comfort was used. NY shares in the blame for that (and it appears the military does as well). Were NY Nursing Homes Full of COVID-19 Patients While Hospital Ship Sat Empty? (snopes.com)

So I get that NY panicked and made a bad choice, but the filling of hospitals was a bad situation that didn't offer great choices. But there is no excuse for fudging the data.
Agree with everything you said. The point again that I’m trying to make is:
  • Cuomo makes a monstrous mistake and gets a pass for a year on it. It can’t be a coincidence that it’s after the election
  • Trump babbles incessantly about sunlight and bleach and didn’t address COVID seriously enough at first and gets vilified for it
  • Both deserved to be vilified. Only Trump was until now. Why?
 

DANC

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Banking on the Dims f’ing up the next 4 years & trotting another crappy candidate out there. Biden was only good enough because Trump was so bad, I’ll be surprised if anyone is clamoring for more Joe or Kamala in 4 years. I hope I’m wrong & they do a great job. As of today, who else is either party going to put out there?
Trump lost because he jumped the shark in the first debate. That was self-destruction at its finest.

The Dems were smart to lock Joe in his basement and make it all about Trump, without ever seriously examining Biden and Harris, in particular. Republican campaign did not focus enough on Joe's history of lying and being wrong on virtually every subject.

If Trump works on his image for the next couple years and learns when to effectively counter-punch instead of lashing out at everything, he'll be the top GOP candidate in 2024 and I think it would be no-contest if he runs against Harris.
 

Marvin the Martian

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Agree with everything you said. The point again that I’m trying to make is:
  • Cuomo makes a monstrous mistake and gets a pass for a year on it. It can’t be a coincidence that it’s after the election
  • Trump babbles incessantly about sunlight and bleach and didn’t address COVID seriously enough at first and gets vilified for it
  • Both deserved to be vilified. Only Trump was until now. Why?

There are multiple reasons at play. Yes, homerism is one of them. But another is that governors generally get less scrutiny than a president. I don't live in NY, I don't follow their politics closely, I largely trust on state issues they do what they need to do. I haven't posted personally much about Florida or any other state's COVID response. States should follow the general guidelines, and if they don't and have an outbreak their leaders should be held to account by their citizens. If Holcomb were to announce that Indiana was about to make mask-wearing illegal, order restaurants and bars to stop social distancing, etc, as a Hoosier then I'd have complaints. But while I might find it ludicrous for North Dakota to do that, I frankly won't care nearly as much.

But certainly, homerism is a major part of the issue.
 
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INRanger27

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There are multiple reasons at play. Yes, homerism is one of them. But another is that governors generally get less scrutiny than a president. I don't live in NY, I don't follow their politics closely, I largely trust on state issues they do what they need to do. I haven't posted personally much about Florida or any other state's COVID response. States should follow the general guidelines, and if they don't and have an outbreak their leaders should be held to account by their citizens. If Holcomb were to announce that Indiana was about to make mask-wearing illegal, order restaurants and bars to stop social distancing, etc, as a Hoosier then I'd have complaints. But while I might find it ludicrous for North Dakota to do that, I frankly won't care nearly as much.

But certainly, homerism is a major part of the issue.
He got more than his fair share on national outlets - outlets that praised him because of how “good” his briefings were. Because he wasn’t Trump. Because he was what they wanted to show as strong leadership from a Democrat. Turns out his ideas and actions led to thousands of unnecessary deaths. This was obvious last summer but it took until after the media got rid of Trump for them to start reporting on it. All media is fake news.
 

DrHoops

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Agree with everything you said. The point again that I’m trying to make is:
  • Cuomo makes a monstrous mistake and gets a pass for a year on it. It can’t be a coincidence that it’s after the election
  • Trump babbles incessantly about sunlight and bleach and didn’t address COVID seriously enough at first and gets vilified for it
  • Both deserved to be vilified. Only Trump was until now. Why?

Easy, Trump is the President of the United States. Cuomo is a governor who 85% of America has no idea who he is.
 
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Bowlmania

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If Trump works on his image for the next couple years and learns when to effectively counter-punch instead of lashing out at everything, he'll be the top GOP candidate in 2024 and I think it would be no-contest if he runs against Harris
"Works on his image?" And "Trump" and "learns" in the same sentence? Now that's funny!

Lashing out at everything is all he's ever done. He's already clearly out of his mind. You actually believe his thoughts and behavior will be more rational in four years?

I know you're titillated by the prospect of Trump running again, but he's a two-time popular vote loser. If he's the nominee in 2024, the Republican Party truly is finished.
 
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Romney came out today (maybe yesterday) and opined that if trump runs in 2024 he’d win the gop nomination.

I just don’t understand that. How do you back a guy that lost by ten million votes. Even if you support and like him he’s demonstrated he’s not viable
Romney said he would not vote for trump, but said if trump runs he wins the nomination in a landslide I would agree with that, what the pubes need to do if trump runs is run 1 candidate against him not 20
 

DANC

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"Works on his image?" And "Trump" and "learns" in the same sentence? Now that's funny!

Lashing out at everything is all he's ever done. He's already clearly out of his mind. You actually believe his thoughts and behavior will be more rational in four years?

I know you're titillated by the prospect of Trump running again, but he's a two-time popular vote loser. If he's the nominee in 2024, the Republican Party truly is finished.
You should be happy about that.

Of course, you were 100% wrong about shutting down sports and the economy in general.

There is virtually no risk for college-age athletes - certainly no more than the flu - and even less risk for elementary and high school age kids and their teachers.

The fear mongering of people like you and your totally political intent has caused untold misery for the American people. Congratulations.
 
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Marvin the Martian

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You should be happy about that.

Of course, you were 100% wrong about shutting down sports and the economy in general.

There is virtually no risk for college-age athletes - certainly no more than the flu - and even less risk for elementary and high school age kids and their teachers.

The fear mongering of people like you and your totally political intent has caused untold misery for the American people. Congratulations.

To this day we do not know the risks. Period. Spanish Flu created a wave of Parkinson's Disease a few years after the Spanish Flu ended. Experts warn COVID-19 may increase risk of Parkinson’s disease (newatlas.com) We don't know if SARS-COV-2 will do that or not. So the course we work on is to have the economy as open as we can have it while keeping the spread as low as we can. Very few people have wanted to shut down the entire economy. it is trying to find the balance that works for most.
 

mcmurtry66

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To this day we do not know the risks. Period. Spanish Flu created a wave of Parkinson's Disease a few years after the Spanish Flu ended. Experts warn COVID-19 may increase risk of Parkinson’s disease (newatlas.com) We don't know if SARS-COV-2 will do that or not. So the course we work on is to have the economy as open as we can have it while keeping the spread as low as we can. Very few people have wanted to shut down the entire economy. it is trying to find the balance that works for most.
Damn! never knew that.
 

Marvin the Martian

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Damn! never knew that.

I heard that a couple of months ago when someone was saying why we didn't want to encourage all young people just to go out and get the disease.

We can't overly worry about it, which is why shutting down everything isn't the answer. But we also can't completely dismiss it as we don't want a mass of people in their early 20's coming down with Parkinson's because they caught COVID in their teens.

That's why for most opening schools with distancing, masks, and hand-washing is the sensible answer. Unfortunately, many schools aren't built large enough to allow distancing, at that point decisions need made.
 

mcmurtry66

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I heard that a couple of months ago when someone was saying why we didn't want to encourage all young people just to go out and get the disease.

We can't overly worry about it, which is why shutting down everything isn't the answer. But we also can't completely dismiss it as we don't want a mass of people in their early 20's coming down with Parkinson's because they caught COVID in their teens.

That's why for most opening schools with distancing, masks, and hand-washing is the sensible answer. Unfortunately, many schools aren't built large enough to allow distancing, at that point decisions need made.
Never heard there was a connection. I had a law partner retire in his late 40s with parkinson's. horrible, horrible stuff.
 
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