This game

[Tasmanian Devil]

In what world is that a talented roster ? Did you see any single team from a P5 conference that made the tourney that you wouldn't have traded rosters with straight up ? I damn sure didn't.

I’ve asked this several times to try to get an honest answer and never gotten a reply: what team in college basketball - this year or any other year - has had a comparable roster makeup/injuries to what Indiana had this year and made the NCAA tournament? Serious question.

I have thought about this one long and hard and cannot think of a single one. Doesn’t mean one doesn’t exist, but who would qualify?

 

[snarlcakes]

Come on, you have to stop with the " two all-conference" nonsense. It implies that we had two first-team talents. One guy was second team. The other was honorable mention which by any reasonable definition is not all-conference. It's "almost all-conference". When you use that misleading narrative it smacks of desperation to overrate the talent for the sole purpose of minimizing and denigrating the coaching.

What we had was one very good experienced player (Morgan), two talented freshmen (Phinisee and Langford), some experienced role players who were banged-up all year (Davis, McRoberts), two sophomores with improving, but still limited skills (Durham, Smith), a limited skillset grad transfer (Pitzner), an erratic guard who missed time due to both injury and suspension and who often had to play out of position (Green), two injured freshmen who were able to play no (or very few) minutes at all (Hunter, Thompson), and a collection of not-ready-for- primetime youngsters and walk-ons who were no help at all.

In what world is that a talented roster ? Did you see any single team from a P5 conference that made the tourney that you wouldn't have traded rosters with straight up ? I damn sure didn't.

Romeo was 2nd team and Morgan was 3rd team all-conference. Those are actual facts. It's not misleading. If you want my honest opinion. Juwan Morgan was one of the best 10 players in the league.

There is a lot of irony in your post. I could also say your continued insistence that we didn't have a talented roster, is denigrating to the players, and smacks of desperation of trying to shift blame away from poor coaching. I suggest we just assume that were are both being honest and we disagree on how talented our roster was. Also, talent is relative. In comparison to the other division one schools, IU had similar or more talent than 92-95% of them.

I wouldn't trade IU's roster with OSU, Wisconsin, Iowa, and Minnesota in the Big Ten. Some other P5 schools who I wouldn't trade rosters with; Baylor, Oklahoma, Oregon, Nova, Washington, Iowa St., Florida, ASU, and Syracuse. Now you might be able to nit pick one of those schools and talk me into taking their roster, but I'm not out in left field. IU had similar or more talent than all of those schools.

Speaking of rosters. Before the season (and half way through the season) there isn't a person on this site who would have traded Purdue's rosters for IU's. I can't blame them. They lost 4 of 5 starters from the previous year. They returned 2 seniors. One was a walk-on 6'6 power forward and the other one moves like a 50 year old man who had both knees replaced. Edwards is great, but had an awful stretch during the Big Ten season. They had two sophomores. One of them makes Justin Smith look like a sharp shooter and the other one's biggest achievement is his great head of hair (he also lost his starting spot to a freshmen at one point). The rest of the team is comprised of freshmen. Whoops, I missed one player. The senior citizen bald guy who played at the beginning of the year. I think he died of old age halfway through the season. To Porkchop's credit he was able to take that band of misfits and turn them into a top 10 team (I'm being a little facetious, but you get the point).

 

[frikkenfrakken]

Romeo was 2nd team and Morgan was 3rd team all-conference. Those are actual facts. It's not misleading. If you want my honest opinion. Juwan Morgan was one of the best 10 players in the league.

There is a lot of irony in your post. I could also say your continued insistence that we didn't have a talented roster, is denigrating to the players, and smacks of desperation of trying to shift blame away from poor coaching. I suggest we just assume that were are both being honest and we disagree on how talented our roster is. Also, talented is relative. In comparison to the other division one schools, IU had similar or more talent than 92-95% of them.

I wouldn't trade IU's roster with OSU, Wisconsin, Iowa, and Minnesota in the Big Ten. Some other P5 schools who I wouldn't trade rosters with; Baylor, Oklahoma, Oregon, Nova, Washington, Iowa St., Florida, ASU, and Syracuse. Now you might be able to nit pick one of those schools and talk me into taking their roster, but I'm not out in left field. IU had similar or more talent than all of those schools.

Speaking of rosters. Before the season (and half way through the season) there isn't a person on this site who would have traded Purdue's rosters for IU's. I can't blame them. They lost 4 of 5 starters from the previous year. They returned 2 seniors. One was a walk-on 6'6 power forward and the other one moves like a 50 year old man who had both knees replaced. Edwards is great, but had an awful stretch during the Big Ten season. They had two sophomores. One of them makes Justin Smith look like a sharp shooter and the other one's biggest achievement is his great head of hair (he also lost his starting spot to a freshmen at one point). The rest of the team is comprised of freshmen. Whoops, I missed one player. The senior citizen bald guy who played at the beginning of the year. I think he died of old age halfway through the season. To Porkchop's credit he was able to take that band of misfits and turn them into a top 10 team (I'm being a little facetious, but you get the point).

Morgan was not third team all-conference.

https://bigten.org/news/2019/3/11/big-ten-unveils-mens-basketball-postseason-honors-on-btn.aspx

Get your facts straight. Or, maybe you can just ignore me and say "we disagree" again...

 

[turney333]

Romeo was 2nd team and Morgan was 3rd team all-conference. Those are actual facts. It's not misleading. If you want my honest opinion. Juwan Morgan was one of the best 10 players in the league.

There is a lot of irony in your post. I could also say your continued insistence that we didn't have a talented roster, is denigrating to the players, and smacks of desperation of trying to shift blame away from poor coaching. I suggest we just assume that were are both being honest and we disagree on how talented our roster is. Also, talented is relative. In comparison to the other division one schools, IU had similar or more talent than 92-95% of them.

I wouldn't trade IU's roster with OSU, Wisconsin, Iowa, and Minnesota in the Big Ten. Some other P5 schools who I wouldn't trade rosters with; Baylor, Oklahoma, Oregon, Nova, Washington, Iowa St., Florida, ASU, and Syracuse. Now you might be able to nit pick one of those schools and talk me into taking their roster, but I'm not out in left field. IU had similar or more talent than all of those schools.

Speaking of rosters. Before the season (and half way through the season) there isn't a person on this site who would have traded Purdue's rosters for IU's. I can't blame them. Purdue had 2 seniors. One was a walk-on 6'6 power forward and the other one moves like a 50 year old man who had both knees replaced. Edwards is great, but had an awful stretch during the Big Ten season. They have two sophomores. One of them makes Justin Smith look like a sharp shooter and the other one's biggest achievement is his great head of hair (he also lost his starting spot to a freshmen at one point). The rest of the team is comprised of freshmen. Whoops, I missed one player. The senior citizen bald guy who played at the beginning of the year. I think he died of old age halfway through the season. To Porkchop's credit he was able to take that band of misfits and turn them into a top 10 team (I'm being a little facetious, but you get the point).

While you might be able to argue that IU had a better collection of individual talent than the teams you mentioned, most if not all of those teams had some combination of more experience, better roster balance, better health. In particular with roster balance, those teams either had multiple quality 3-point shooters and/or quality post depth that was healthy for the entire year. I think nearly all of those teams had a guy that would have started at the 5 position and a 3-point shooter that would have started at a guard position for IU.

How important was post depth for IU - IU was 0-7 when Davis wasn't healthy enough to play at least 5 minutes

 

[oldcougar77]

Romeo was 2nd team and Morgan was 3rd team all-conference. Those are actual facts. It's not misleading. If you want my honest opinion. Juwan Morgan was one of the best 10 players in the league.

There is a lot of irony in your post. I could also say your continued insistence that we didn't have a talented roster, is denigrating to the players, and smacks of desperation of trying to shift blame away from poor coaching. I suggest we just assume that were are both being honest and we disagree on how talented our roster is. Also, talented is relative. In comparison to the other division one schools, IU had similar or more talent than 92-95% of them.

I wouldn't trade IU's roster with OSU, Wisconsin, Iowa, and Minnesota in the Big Ten. Some other P5 schools who I wouldn't trade rosters with; Baylor, Oklahoma, Oregon, Nova, Washington, Iowa St., Florida, ASU, and Syracuse. Now you might be able to nit pick one of those schools and talk me into taking their roster, but I'm not out in left field. IU had similar or more talent than all of those schools.

Speaking of rosters. Before the season (and half way through the season) there isn't a person on this site who would have traded Purdue's rosters for IU's. I can't blame them. They lost 4 of 5 starters from the previous year. They returned 2 seniors. One was a walk-on 6'6 power forward and the other one moves like a 50 year old man who had both knees replaced. Edwards is great, but had an awful stretch during the Big Ten season. They had two sophomores. One of them makes Justin Smith look like a sharp shooter and the other one's biggest achievement is his great head of hair (he also lost his starting spot to a freshmen at one point). The rest of the team is comprised of freshmen. Whoops, I missed one player. The senior citizen bald guy who played at the beginning of the year. I think he died of old age halfway through the season. To Porkchop's credit he was able to take that band of misfits and turn them into a top 10 team (I'm being a little facetious, but you get the point).

Had we had everybody healthy all season, I probably wouldn't have traded rosters with some of those teams - but I surely would have with many that you listed. Of course, if we had everybody healthy we would have won five or six more games. Given our beat-up roster, I would have traded with every school on your list. I damn sure would have traded Purdue. Edwards and Cline were more capable shooters than anyone on our roster. We had no legitimate post defender like Haarms. Experience alone made their roster superior to ours.

 

[snarlcakes]

Morgan was not third team all-conference.

https://bigten.org/news/2019/3/11/big-ten-unveils-mens-basketball-postseason-honors-on-btn.aspx

Get your facts straight. Or, maybe you can just ignore me and say "we disagree" again...

Or you could choose to not be disingenuous and assume I was referring to the media's picks. Feel free to correct me on that. My apologies if I’m wrong.

 

[snarlcakes]

Keep twisting the facts around to suit your needs. They had Joe Harris too. He didn't make an all conference team that year. He plays in the NBA now. Another top 50 kid played the whole season. He went on to be a good college player, although he sucked under Bennett.

You tried to obfuscate the issues by asking a bunch of questions. I answered them. You don't like the answers, so you ignore them. No more lectures about logic. I provided facts. You disagree anyway. Blah blah blah

lol...You are free to twist the facts, as you see fit, but I can't? I think the most important fact is Indiana had the two best players . You just gloss over it like it's no big deal. Joe Harris wasn't a NBA player that year. He was a freshmen who developed into a NBA player over the next 3 years.

Also, besides IU having the two best players, we also had a top 50 player in Deron Davis and 5 other players who were 4 stars. We also had two other 3 stars who were the best shooters on our team. It's not that I don't like your answers, it's your answers are wrong in my opinion.

 

[73CAV]

Expectations for Virginia that year should have been pretty high. They had a returning senior expected to breakout (Mike Scott) and another future pro in Joe Harris. They had several other players who've landed pro contracts somewhere...either in the NBDL or overseas. But....Scott got hurt and got a redshirt, even though he played 10 games. But if we aren't giving Miller a break for all the injuries, can't give it to Bennett either. Two NBA players, didn't even make the NIT.

They had no all-conference players. Scott only played in one conference game. After him, Mustapha Farrakhan led the team with 13 points per game. Harris was second, and their top-50 freshman guard was third. They also had Sylven Landesberg, a former McDonalds All-American and all-ACC player from the year before that Bennett couldn't convince, apparently, to return for his junior year. He went pro and didn't get drafted.

I don't have to watch all their games. If that's a pre-requisite to comparing two teams, then apparently no one's allowed to compare teams. The NCAA tournament committee doesn't even require that, and they are running a billion dollar enterprise. It's also a standard that literally no one else on here follows...especially when they want to talk about Beard, Holtmann, or whatever other coach suits their anti-IU agenda.

Here's what Virginia was in their second season: A young team that hoped to rely on young guards, one talented wing and a good senior big-man. But, their talented wing didn't come back to school. One of their two future NBA players got injured and the other was a freshman. Their other top 50 player was also a freshman. 8 different players started during conference play--but since Scott got hurt, they usually played a 7 man rotation...and 3 of those guys sucked. After the season, the end of the bench guys like Baron and Regan transferred.

And...despite playing an easier schedule than IU did last year (59th to 27th), 2011 UVA finished worse than 2019 IU in BOTH adjusted offensive and defensive efficiency--and IU won more games--with a roster of similar talent that suffered more injuries.

BUT...here's what's really fun. 2011 UVA wasn't even as good as 2018 IU. What's more, they weren't even as good as 2011 IU...that's right. Year 2 under Bennett was actually worse than the infamous "Year 3" of Crean, based on the efficiency metrics at kenpom.

Is that specific enough for you?

Here's more fun: The next season, UVA convinced the NCAA to give Scott another season, even though he played in 10 games before he got hurt. They added ANOTHER future NBA player, Malcolm Brogdon, and another top-100 freshman big. So, they had 3 future NBA players and 2 other top-100 recruits. Both of those other top-100 guys transferred out at the end of the first semester, and they went 22-10, and lost by 26 in the first round of the tournament. One of the transfers (KT Harrell) went on to average 18 per game two years in a row at Auburn. He wasn't a bad player...Bennett just couldn't get anything out of him.

I just shudder to think what Feepsie and his minions woulda said at the end of that mess. I shudder. I'm shuddering. He'd probably would have set himself on fire in front of Assembly Hall in protest.

So, to answer your questions, yes, this comparison tracks. The only worry I have is that Miller hasn't proven his offense can score enough to get us back into Elite company regularly. But he certainly deserves his opportunity to prove it one way or another.

I don't think this in anyway alters your argument, but I do believe you have a few details a mite wrong. Also, I think Virginia's situation can be expanded. First, when Bennett became head coach, not all of Leitao's players embraced the change. Sylvan Landesberg was actually dismissed from the team at midseason for not attending classes. Evidently by 2nd semester he had already decided to enter the draft. Also, Tristan Spurlock, Leitao's 4 star recruit for the 2009 class, never bought into his role and transferred at the end of the year. He rarely left the bench. The starting PG left the team in late February, and a starting wing, 4 star Jeff Jones, transfered in the spring. Bennett signed a six player class for 2010. Two were Top 100: K T Harrell & James Johnson. Regan and Baron left after one semester. Harrell enjoyed some success early, but struggled after the New Year. Johnson redshirted. Both transferred after their third semester. Harrell had been passed by Brogdon on the depth chart, and Johnson never lived up to his ranking. He also left SDSU after one year there. By the end of the 2012 season, Virginia was down to seven scholarship players, and Joe Harris was starting with a cast on his left hand. They were not competitive against Florida in the NCAA.
Essentially, the transition from Leitao to Bennett had its challenges. There was a lot of turnover. Bennett also took some chances with his early recruiting, and not all were successful. More than a few left after a year or two. It wasn't until the 2012 recruiting class started playing (and, then, not until their second year) that things began to really click.

 

[frikkenfrakken]

I don't think this in anyway alters your argument, but I do believe you have a few details a mite wrong. Also, I think Virginia's situation can be expanded. First, when Bennett became head coach, not all of Leitao's players embraced the change. Sylvan Landesberg was actually dismissed from the team for not attending classes. Evidently by 2nd semester he had already decided to enter the draft. Also, Tristan Spurlock, Leitao's 4 star recruit for the 2009 class, never bought into his role and transferred at the end of the year. He rarely left the bench. The starting PG left the team in late February, and a starting wing, 4 star Jeff Jones, transfered in the spring. Bennett signed a six player class for 2010. Two were Top 100: K T Harrell & James Johnson. Regan and Baron left after one semester. Harrell enjoyed some success early, but struggled after the New Year. Johnson redshirted. Both transferred after their third semester. Harrell had been passed by Brogdon on the depth chart, and Johnson never lived up to his ranking. He also left SDSU after one year there. By the end of the 2012 season, Virginia was down to seven scholarship players, and Joe Harris was starting with a cast on his left hand. They were not competitive against Florida in the NCAA.
Essentially, the transition from Leitao to Bennett had its challenges. There was a lot of turnover. Bennett also took some chances with his early recruiting, and not all were successful. More than a few left after a year or two. It wasn't until the 2012 recruiting class started playing (and, then, not until their second year) that things began to really click.

It sounds a LOT like the same issues we are having. Not everyone is buying in. Injuries sapping depth. But instead, the Fire Fred internet insurgency is like: Archie had the two best players!

But he didn't...Scott was better than Morgan or Langford.