However, the Auburn player committed a textbook foul on the UVA player, grabbing his jersey, after the ball deflected off his foot, but before he picked it up. Make that foul call, which is what Auburn wanted in that situation anyway, and there is no DD to consider.
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However, the Auburn player committed a textbook foul on the UVA player, grabbing his jersey, after the ball deflected off his foot, but before he picked it up. Make that foul call, which is what Auburn wanted in that situation anyway, and there is no DD to consider.
The fact it's difficult to win at Washington State, supports my argument. I think it is much easier to accomplish what Archie did at Dayton than what Bennett did at Washington State. The Pac 12 is a much better conference than A-10.
The original post I responded to claimed posters like myself would want to fire Bennett after 2 years, at IU. I said I wouldn't have been as worried with Bennett because of his success at Washington State.
If expectations were too high, they weren't much too high. No....we underperformed. Significantly. There is absolutely no denying it.
Do you honestly think we should've been expecting somewhere around .500?
Now, I get that we had injuries. And I don't think anybody can fairly say that we weren't adversely impacted by them. But neither are they, on their own, a sufficient excuse for how the team performed.
Look, I'm not ready to throw Archie out on his ear. And I get that most people here have their heels dug in one way or the other. But, ultimately, it doesn't do us any good to sugarcoat things. And it also doesn't do us any good to talk about irrelevant things like Tony Bennett's first two years at UVA.
The problem this year was that, for whatever reasons, we didn't do nearly as well as we should have. And, ultimately, the coach has to be held accountable for that.
I'm talking about the general consensus expectations. It's not a precise thing, of course. But you have to have some kind of benchmark to measure how well you did or didn't do.
And, yes, I get that somebody can just throw out that we should win 30 games and go to the FF. But that doesn't qualify such a bar as defining -- generally speaking -- how well we think we ought to do given our roster, experience, etc.
Do you think the "general consensus" expectation of Crean's first team was wildly different from winning 6 games? Because I don't. And that's why nobody was calling for his head that year. Or the next year.
We didn't do as well as we reasonably should have done this year. There's no denying it. And that's the criticism -- not simply that the record, looked at without context, was what it was.
Virginia had nowhere the talent Indiana had when Bennett started. This was a wasted year we were 12-2 and fell apart this would never happens under elite coaches..
Injuries matter. Especially when they happen in bunches. Especially when they happen in the toughest part of your season and when practice time is precious. Especially when you have a body of work in place for other teams to scout and expose your deficiencies.
They matter especially when you already have talent limitations and players on your bench who are incapable of competing at the B1G level.
If some of the most vocal critics here had ever coached, they would understand this. They would also have better sense of just how important experienced upperclassmen are to a team.
I guess the big difference is that some of you watched during the bad stretch and said " How the hell can Archie let this happen?" I watched during the 12-2 start and said "How the hell can a team this limited be 12-2 and beat any decent team?"
They matter especially when you already have talent limitations and players on your bench who are incapable of competing at the B1G level.
If some of the most vocal critics here had ever coached, they would understand this. They would also have better sense of just how important experienced upperclassmen are to a team.
I guess the big difference is that some of you watched during the bad stretch and said " How the hell can Archie let this happen?" I watched during the 12-2 start and said "How the hell can a team this limited be 12-2 and beat any decent team?"
OK, so when you're quoting his success at WSU, it's because it was all TB, but then we're supposed to overlook that he struggled just as CAM has record-wise when he moved "up into the big leagues"? How about you just admit it's a poor comparison and move on? TB is a great coach as evidenced by winning an NC last night, but even a GREAT coach struggled at a new school while implementing his "system" when it wasn't hand fed to him from his Dad... so, what's your argument again?
One last time. Hurry76hoosiers posted, "I wonder how the geniuses on here would have evaluated Bennett's first two years at uva. I imagine it would have been breathtaking stuff." I stated I wouldn't have been as worried because of Bennett's prior success at WSU. Did you miss that part or are you just disagreeing?
Also, his Dad was 13-16, 12-16, and 11-17 the 3 prior years before Bennett took over at WSU. His Dad hand fed him a sh#t sandwich.
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I mean you can cherry pick it and find examples like that. But I could go find ones that went just the opposite. Bottom line is we have no idea if Archie is the guy or not. So far he has not shown me much.
Expectations for Virginia that year should have been pretty high. They had a returning senior expected to breakout (Mike Scott) and another future pro in Joe Harris. They had several other players who've landed pro contracts somewhere...either in the NBDL or overseas. But....Scott got hurt and got a redshirt, even though he played 10 games. But if we aren't giving Miller a break for all the injuries, can't give it to Bennett either. Two NBA players, didn't even make the NIT.
They had no all-conference players. Scott only played in one conference game. After him, Mustapha Farrakhan led the team with 13 points per game. Harris was second, and their top-50 freshman guard was third. They also had Sylven Landesberg, a former McDonalds All-American and all-ACC player from the year before that Bennett couldn't convince, apparently, to return for his junior year. He went pro and didn't get drafted.
I don't have to watch all their games. If that's a pre-requisite to comparing two teams, then apparently no one's allowed to compare teams. The NCAA tournament committee doesn't even require that, and they are running a billion dollar enterprise. It's also a standard that literally no one else on here follows...especially when they want to talk about Beard, Holtmann, or whatever other coach suits their anti-IU agenda.
Here's what Virginia was in their second season: A young team that hoped to rely on young guards, one talented wing and a good senior big-man. But, their talented wing didn't come back to school. One of their two future NBA players got injured and the other was a freshman. Their other top 50 player was also a freshman. 8 different players started during conference play--but since Scott got hurt, they usually played a 7 man rotation...and 3 of those guys sucked. After the season, the end of the bench guys like Baron and Regan transferred.
And...despite playing an easier schedule than IU did last year (59th to 27th), 2011 UVA finished worse than 2019 IU in BOTH adjusted offensive and defensive efficiency--and IU won more games--with a roster of similar talent that suffered more injuries.
BUT...here's what's really fun. 2011 UVA wasn't even as good as 2018 IU. What's more, they weren't even as good as 2011 IU...that's right. Year 2 under Bennett was actually worse than the infamous "Year 3" of Crean, based on the efficiency metrics at kenpom.
Is that specific enough for you?
Here's more fun: The next season, UVA convinced the NCAA to give Scott another season, even though he played in 10 games before he got hurt. They added ANOTHER future NBA player, Malcolm Brogdon, and another top-100 freshman big. So, they had 3 future NBA players and 2 other top-100 recruits. Both of those other top-100 guys transferred out at the end of the first semester, and they went 22-10, and lost by 26 in the first round of the tournament. One of the transfers (KT Harrell) went on to average 18 per game two years in a row at Auburn. He wasn't a bad player...Bennett just couldn't get anything out of him.
I just shudder to think what Feepsie and his minions woulda said at the end of that mess. I shudder. I'm shuddering. He'd probably would have set himself on fire in front of Assembly Hall in protest.
So, to answer your questions, yes, this comparison tracks. The only worry I have is that Miller hasn't proven his offense can score enough to get us back into Elite company regularly. But he certainly deserves his opportunity to prove it one way or another.
The big losing streak in the B1G doomed the entire season. The IU Team Chemistry completely fell apart after Rob had to sit out due to concussion protocol.
Ha...they had 2 future NBA players, and another top-50 recruit who went on to average 18 a game for two seasons--in year two.
In year 1, they had 1 future NBA player, as a junior, and a McDonalds AA sophomore wing. We had Juwan Morgan and Robert Johnson...lolz.
But again you give no credit to CAM for having won at Dayton? So, then what's your excuse for TB struggling at UVA, if he was "so great" to win after the shit sandwich his Dad fed him? Something stinks in your logic, and it ain't no sandwich Lucy!
What a stupid stretch. His dad, who had great success at W-GB and Wisky, was building a program at WSU. He handed Tony an experienced, talented team (which Tony primarily recruited) and TB made the most of it - because he's a damn good coach.
What Archie inherited from Crean was no better than what TB started with at WSU - especially given than Bennett was already entrenched in the program with his players and style of play. Just admit that your argument has fallen apart and that you are grasping at straws to maintain any credibility in this post.
While Bennett did a nice job at Washington State, comparing taking over that P5 job to Archie taking over P5 at Indiana isn't honestly an apples-to-apples comparison.
Dick Bennett had coached the Cougars from 2003 to 2006. The guy he took over from, Paul Graham, had failed to win 10 games in 3 of the 4 seasons he coached at WSU. Dick Bennett finished 13-16, 12-16 and 11-17 in his 3 seasons - but laid the foundation that his son could take over a system with continuity to play.
Archie? He lost the 3 best players off an 18-16 team that played an drastically different style than the one he was/is trying to implement. I think you'd agree the latter situation would be significantly more challenging, right?
Again, I really like Tony Bennett. Wish we could have hired him in 2008 (but the lingering effects of Kathi's firing still resonated with the family). But to compare his 1st couple years in Pullman to Archie's in Bloomington isn't a fair - or, IMHO, accurate - comparison.
Or you could go back to my initial response and read it. That's why i quoted it to kkott. I was responding to the part in bold. I did word it poorly and I was going to edit it, but it then would make kkott's responses look off base (which they were not). To respond to your last paragraph. Archie inherited a better situation at IU than Bennett did at WSU or Virginia.
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We have a coach. We also have athletes who can't shoot. Plenty of talent but not plenty of shooters. Need shooters who value the ball. It'll come. Be patient.
Go Hoosiers!
I wasn't trying to compare the two. I was using it as an example for why I wouldn't have been as worried about Bennett, after year two at Virginia. I worded it poorly.
I will answer the rest of it. I think Archie inherited a better situation than Bennett did at WSU. Bennett inherited a 11-17 team and his dad did terrible job as the head coach. He was 36-49. There is a reason WSU has made the tourney only three times in the past 35 years. It's a terrible job.
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You realize Virginia shot 45% from 3 last night. The players won the game, unless Bennett taught them to shoot. And some late 3’s by TT gave them a chance to win.
The difference is Bennett and Beard can coach. You fanboys always concentrate on the playersI look forward to your whining when posters point out Archie isn't the guy.
Let’s get invited to the tournament first, then speculate the ramifications of a $hit$how right out of the box. Baby steps....there shall be no $hit$how before it’s time.
I appreciate the backup. Unfortunately, I think he's locked in to his narrative and wouldn't reconsider if 25 people explained it to him. That's his story and he's sticking to it.Beat me to the spot
Others have answered your questions, so I'll just come back to my real point....it typically takes a few years for coaches to get their system in place and start rolling. Especially when there is such a drastic difference in styles like between crean and archie.
Look, I about lost my f*cking mind during our losing streak. It sucked and had me seriously questioning archie. But at the end of the day, after all of the injuries to hunter, race, deron, mcbob, phinisee, and even romeo's thumb, they were still just a game off of making the tourney.
With a healthy team, what were your expectations? Maybe 23 or 24 wins and around a 6 seed? Not unrealistic to think they would have gotten there without all of the injuries. Who the hell knows?
But all of this ridiculous talk that archie suddenly cant coach or that this was a terrible hire by glass is so tiresome. We didnt hire donovan or Bennett or Brad Stevens, but archie was in that group of 3 or 4 guys that were considered very hot names just waiting for the right program to come calling. He wasnt a bad hire. Comparing him to gregory or groce is just silly.
All that said, it might not work out. We are a demanding group of a*sholes here and hungry for some consistency and success, and we arent going to wait forever. But for God's sake, cant we give him another season to hopefully have a healthy squad and see what happens?
To be fair. That’s pretty accurate. I’m not trying to be a pain in the a##, it’s just what I think based on all the information we currently have.
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I agree he should get another year. The rest of it we can agree to disagree. I appreciate the response and hopefully I don’t have any clue what I’m talking about.
I appreciate your honesty and your ability to disagree without being uncivil.
So, Virginia in year 2 had a similar roster than IU, minus 2 all conference players(after the injury to Mike Scott, who had a damn good career). We're going to disagree that the comparisons track. Also, according to Kenpom ratings, Penn State was a better team than Indiana this year.
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Look at the recruiting classes Archie has had more and done less compared to Bennett.. I can't think of anybody ever at Virginia as talented as Romeo.. Morgan was a top 50 so was Davis, Johnson, Smith, Hunter, Curtis Jones I bet was too before he transfered..
Morgan and Smith were not even top 100 recruits, hunter hasn't played a single minute, and Davis has been hindered for over a year with the Achilles injury.
Come on, you have to stop with the " two all-conference" nonsense. It implies that we had two first-team talents. One guy was second team. The other was honorable mention which by any reasonable definition is not all-conference. It's "almost all-conference". When you use that misleading narrative it smacks of desperation to overrate the talent for the sole purpose of minimizing and denigrating the coaching.
What we had was one very good experienced player (Morgan), two talented freshmen (Phinisee and Langford), some experienced role players who were banged-up all year (Davis, McRoberts), two sophomores with improving, but still limited skills (Durham, Smith), a limited skillset grad transfer (Pitzner), an erratic guard who missed time due to both injury and suspension and who often had to play out of position (Green), two injured freshmen who were able to play no (or very few) minutes at all (Hunter, Thompson), and a collection of not-ready-for- primetime youngsters and walk-ons who were no help at all.
In what world is that a talented roster ? Did you see any single team from a P5 conference that made the tourney that you wouldn't have traded rosters with straight up ? I damn sure didn't.
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Keep twisting the facts around to suit your needs. They had Joe Harris too. He didn't make an all conference team that year. He plays in the NBA now. Another top 50 kid played the whole season. He went on to be a good college player, although he sucked under Bennett.
You tried to obfuscate the issues by asking a bunch of questions. I answered them. You don't like the answers, so you ignore them. No more lectures about logic. I provided facts. You disagree anyway. Blah blah blah
That is not my main concern. We couldn’t hit free throws when no one was guarding us. We committed too many unforced errors. Too much individual offensive play. A lack of fire from many players. These are areas coaches can and should correct. Either by teaching or benching. Programs like Princeton and Knights Army squads display solid fundamentals that we lack. Losing to more talented teams can be tolerated for a while. But losing to less talented squads due to lack of effort, poor basic fundamentals and a low basketball IQ is not acceptable in my opinion.
Smith top 100 https://247sports.com/player/justin-smith-81339/
Davis top 100
https://247sports.com/player/deron-davis-22583/
Jones top 100 https://247sports.com/PlayerInstitu...tington-Prep-134063/CurrentExpertPredictions/
Romeo top 100
https://247sports.com/Player/Romeo-Langford-86372/
Robert Johnson top 100
https://247sports.com/player/robert-johnson-33746/
.
Hunter top 100
https://247sports.com/player/jerome-hunter-83176/
Outside top 100 Morgan, Thompson, Phinisee, Forrester, Anderson, Moore
Over the same 2 years Chris Beard has had 2 top 100 players ...
Tony Bennett has had 6 top 100 since 2014..
Davis top 100
https://247sports.com/player/deron-davis-22583/
Jones top 100 https://247sports.com/PlayerInstitu...tington-Prep-134063/CurrentExpertPredictions/
Romeo top 100
https://247sports.com/Player/Romeo-Langford-86372/
Robert Johnson top 100
https://247sports.com/player/robert-johnson-33746/
.
Hunter top 100
https://247sports.com/player/jerome-hunter-83176/
Outside top 100 Morgan, Thompson, Phinisee, Forrester, Anderson, Moore
Over the same 2 years Chris Beard has had 2 top 100 players ...
Tony Bennett has had 6 top 100 since 2014..
