"The thin blue line between us and anarchy."
- Thread starter Univee2
- Start date
Yes, our prayers should be said
for the souls of the officers and their families, friends and their police family.
Unfortunately, folks cannot know what it is to be a police officer unless they have been and cannot fully understand what goes through the ranks when a brother officer is lost.
Police officer do, indeed, form the thin blue line separating civilization from anarchy.
for the souls of the officers and their families, friends and their police family.
Unfortunately, folks cannot know what it is to be a police officer unless they have been and cannot fully understand what goes through the ranks when a brother officer is lost.
Police officer do, indeed, form the thin blue line separating civilization from anarchy.
I agree, one cannot know what it is like to be an officer
It is very difficult to actually walk in another man's shoes. Just as it is difficult to understand what it might be like to be frightened mom raising a son in a poverty stricken neighborhood with little to no hope of getting out. Yesterday was indeed a huge tragedy, but violence in our country is always a tragedy. This time of year will always remind me of Sandy Hook. And not a thing has changed....sadly.
It is very difficult to actually walk in another man's shoes. Just as it is difficult to understand what it might be like to be frightened mom raising a son in a poverty stricken neighborhood with little to no hope of getting out. Yesterday was indeed a huge tragedy, but violence in our country is always a tragedy. This time of year will always remind me of Sandy Hook. And not a thing has changed....sadly.
"What Do We Want?"
Dead Cops!
When do want it?
NOW!
Hope the folks who shouted that (with glee and fervor and pride and overdoses of self-importance) have enough cognitive ability to feel some shame now.
I think the cops need to strike.
Let the animals run wild for a week.
See if folks re-learn why cops exist in the first place.
"Police brutality is so bad, we're willing to burn down cities to protest it! Follow US to a better world!!"
Sigh.
I thought the dumbassery of the 60's wouldn't be repeated in my lifetime.
I was wrong.
Dead Cops!
When do want it?
NOW!
Hope the folks who shouted that (with glee and fervor and pride and overdoses of self-importance) have enough cognitive ability to feel some shame now.
I think the cops need to strike.
Let the animals run wild for a week.
See if folks re-learn why cops exist in the first place.
"Police brutality is so bad, we're willing to burn down cities to protest it! Follow US to a better world!!"
Sigh.
I thought the dumbassery of the 60's wouldn't be repeated in my lifetime.
I was wrong.
Police Brutality and Poorly-Envisioned Protests About It Had Nothing To Do
with Sandy Hook (or any of the other violent acts committed by the insane.)
And that mother will be helped a lot more by cops, teachers and the folks who own businesses and hire people, than any bunch of protesting anarchists who can't even feed themselves legally.
I'm against police brutality too. But you'll never see me marching and yelling "Death to Cops NOW" to try and fix it.
Common respect and decency could fix this crap overnight, but that's not self-aggrandizing enough for protest leaders.
There's big money in race-baiting.
That's the only consistent truth getting proven in these case-o'-week puppet shows.
The number ONE cause of death of black males 15-34 is MURDER - and not by cops.
Wheres the "what do we want?" chants about THAT?
Crickets.
with Sandy Hook (or any of the other violent acts committed by the insane.)
And that mother will be helped a lot more by cops, teachers and the folks who own businesses and hire people, than any bunch of protesting anarchists who can't even feed themselves legally.
I'm against police brutality too. But you'll never see me marching and yelling "Death to Cops NOW" to try and fix it.
Common respect and decency could fix this crap overnight, but that's not self-aggrandizing enough for protest leaders.
There's big money in race-baiting.
That's the only consistent truth getting proven in these case-o'-week puppet shows.
The number ONE cause of death of black males 15-34 is MURDER - and not by cops.
Wheres the "what do we want?" chants about THAT?
Crickets.
Have you seen the collective applause...
by the black community over these assassinations? Just look on social media and it's everywhere. Absolutely sickening and disgusting.
by the black community over these assassinations? Just look on social media and it's everywhere. Absolutely sickening and disgusting.
They are trying to start a race war...
I just read today another cop was shot in Tampa. I hope the situation doesn't escalate any further.
I just read today another cop was shot in Tampa. I hope the situation doesn't escalate any further.
Look internally...
Black Americans are killing each other at a disproportionate rate. They need to fix their own boat.
Black Americans are killing each other at a disproportionate rate. They need to fix their own boat.
I'm calling bullcrap here, Zeke.
You proudly and smugly declared a few weeks ago that you didn't need to know what the several police officers (Including the African American on-scene supervisor) actually said about the Garner case, the video was all you needed for your opinion. As far as I am concerned you at least virtually protested; and no, you did not support the police or give them ANY benefit of the doubt.
But you are in good company. The idiots who also smugly said Brown was given the death penalty to jay-walking are equally idiots and didn't bother to support the police with any benefit of the doubt. The "hands up don't shoot" chant is a fiction. What Brown actually said, after he committed a felony is "you are too much of a pussy to shoot me".
Both involved officers were brought before grand juries and no charges were brought. The public has not accepted or respected the process. Why? Because people believe the video is all that there to see and others want to believe the totally discredited testimony about Brown's conduct.
What really happened is that many many people, including those in the Missouri Governors office, the NYC mayors office, and the Oval office wanted to earn some political capital with these two unfortunate events. That capital was very easy to accumulate given the already touchy public view of these events. Very little political skill was needed to take these matters from legitimate questions about these events to chants of "Want do we want? Dead cops. When do we want it? Now!". Responsible local, state, and national leadership would have pointed out that these cases have been handled by grand juries or are still under civil rights investigations.
Finally we will never know if the Brooklyn cop assassinations were the DIRECT result of the ginned up demonstrations about Brown and Garner. But we do know those two names stood front and center in the mind of the killer months after the situation should have been calmed down.
Finally II, I don't mean to come down just on you about my views. You just happen to be an example of millions of people.
You proudly and smugly declared a few weeks ago that you didn't need to know what the several police officers (Including the African American on-scene supervisor) actually said about the Garner case, the video was all you needed for your opinion. As far as I am concerned you at least virtually protested; and no, you did not support the police or give them ANY benefit of the doubt.
But you are in good company. The idiots who also smugly said Brown was given the death penalty to jay-walking are equally idiots and didn't bother to support the police with any benefit of the doubt. The "hands up don't shoot" chant is a fiction. What Brown actually said, after he committed a felony is "you are too much of a pussy to shoot me".
Both involved officers were brought before grand juries and no charges were brought. The public has not accepted or respected the process. Why? Because people believe the video is all that there to see and others want to believe the totally discredited testimony about Brown's conduct.
What really happened is that many many people, including those in the Missouri Governors office, the NYC mayors office, and the Oval office wanted to earn some political capital with these two unfortunate events. That capital was very easy to accumulate given the already touchy public view of these events. Very little political skill was needed to take these matters from legitimate questions about these events to chants of "Want do we want? Dead cops. When do we want it? Now!". Responsible local, state, and national leadership would have pointed out that these cases have been handled by grand juries or are still under civil rights investigations.
Finally we will never know if the Brooklyn cop assassinations were the DIRECT result of the ginned up demonstrations about Brown and Garner. But we do know those two names stood front and center in the mind of the killer months after the situation should have been calmed down.
Finally II, I don't mean to come down just on you about my views. You just happen to be an example of millions of people.
I'd have to see some definitive and voluminous proof of that.
Common sense would tell us that there are significantly more people of good will than not, that the majority of people, on whatever "side" they might be, sincerely regret the deaths of the two NYPD officers.
That said, police department personnel, throughout the country, have a legitimate grievance that the flames have been fanned by the actions of many in the media and politicians pandering to a constituency just looking for an excuse to destroy and disrupt. Maybe the blood of these officers is not on DiBlasio's hands, but DiBlasio and others of his ilk bear some responsibility given their continual disdain for, and dismissal of, the police.
Maybe LeBron could wear a "Breathe Easy; Don't Break the Law" t-shirt .......
Common sense would tell us that there are significantly more people of good will than not, that the majority of people, on whatever "side" they might be, sincerely regret the deaths of the two NYPD officers.
That said, police department personnel, throughout the country, have a legitimate grievance that the flames have been fanned by the actions of many in the media and politicians pandering to a constituency just looking for an excuse to destroy and disrupt. Maybe the blood of these officers is not on DiBlasio's hands, but DiBlasio and others of his ilk bear some responsibility given their continual disdain for, and dismissal of, the police.
Maybe LeBron could wear a "Breathe Easy; Don't Break the Law" t-shirt .......
I hope they did not die in vain.
We have an opportunity here. We've heard an outpouring of emotion on behalf of the families and communities of these two dead officers. This of course is expected from all but the most strident and vile among us. More needs to be said; much more. President Obama struck exactly the right tone after the Gabby Giffords shooting. He even impressed me with that speech. But his words didn't stick. In a few months we were back to petty bickering with our politics. The country needs a repeat Obama performance on behalf of these individual cops, law enforcement in general, and the state of race relations. These kinds of speeches are right in his wheel house. We'll see.
We have an opportunity here. We've heard an outpouring of emotion on behalf of the families and communities of these two dead officers. This of course is expected from all but the most strident and vile among us. More needs to be said; much more. President Obama struck exactly the right tone after the Gabby Giffords shooting. He even impressed me with that speech. But his words didn't stick. In a few months we were back to petty bickering with our politics. The country needs a repeat Obama performance on behalf of these individual cops, law enforcement in general, and the state of race relations. These kinds of speeches are right in his wheel house. We'll see.
That's a really good take, but I don't believe Obama has it in him.
He's too tied into his own narrative. Witness the recent stories of Obama being mistaken for a waiter while wearing a tux at an event and Michelle Obama's bit about an older woman asking her to help with getting down an item from a high shelf at a store. (Happens to a lot of us who aren't vertically challenged. Michelle Obama is 5' 11", I believe.) There's such a self-centered-ness at play here that I don't see how they can possess the empathy to understand the unique trials and lives of anyone in law enforcement. I don't believe he gets the "tearing at the fabric of society" concept.
He's too tied into his own narrative. Witness the recent stories of Obama being mistaken for a waiter while wearing a tux at an event and Michelle Obama's bit about an older woman asking her to help with getting down an item from a high shelf at a store. (Happens to a lot of us who aren't vertically challenged. Michelle Obama is 5' 11", I believe.) There's such a self-centered-ness at play here that I don't see how they can possess the empathy to understand the unique trials and lives of anyone in law enforcement. I don't believe he gets the "tearing at the fabric of society" concept.
Coming from the guns don't kill people crowd
( not necessarily referring to you, but conservatives as a whole....it's interesting that you blame protests for killing these police officers. And I didn't just protest on here. IU had several well attended and peaceful protests. You have read all the information about witness number 40 in the Brown case, correct? I'm proud to be an example of millions of people that forest peacefully police brutality. I'm proud to stand with my numerous friends that are hassled or have children hassled for being in the wrong neighborhood. Doing nothing wrong but being in the wrong neighborhood. And how is it you are privy to what Brown actually said? It may be correct, but there are numerous testimonies that did not include that. Months after the situation should have calmed down? Dec 3 is months? How long exactly should a protest be allowed for someone choked to death? 2 days? 2 weeks? Just wondering what the standard time frame would be.
Another interesting point about protests is the difference between the landowner who was clearly breaking the law and the number of "patriots" standing firmly behind him. What would the difference be? He broke the law, right? Not only he, but a flock of militia came to protest with arms. Wonder what you'd think if these protesters were armed to the teeth? Not a double standard. Not al all.
( not necessarily referring to you, but conservatives as a whole....it's interesting that you blame protests for killing these police officers. And I didn't just protest on here. IU had several well attended and peaceful protests. You have read all the information about witness number 40 in the Brown case, correct? I'm proud to be an example of millions of people that forest peacefully police brutality. I'm proud to stand with my numerous friends that are hassled or have children hassled for being in the wrong neighborhood. Doing nothing wrong but being in the wrong neighborhood. And how is it you are privy to what Brown actually said? It may be correct, but there are numerous testimonies that did not include that. Months after the situation should have calmed down? Dec 3 is months? How long exactly should a protest be allowed for someone choked to death? 2 days? 2 weeks? Just wondering what the standard time frame would be.
Another interesting point about protests is the difference between the landowner who was clearly breaking the law and the number of "patriots" standing firmly behind him. What would the difference be? He broke the law, right? Not only he, but a flock of militia came to protest with arms. Wonder what you'd think if these protesters were armed to the teeth? Not a double standard. Not al all.
Law and order does require police...
...while anarchy refers to a society without a publicly enforced government.
We must respect law enforcement officers who protect us from those who break the laws. However, this respect requires law enforcement officers to also obey the laws and rules of conduct prescribed to them.
The line only becomes thin between respecting officers and not respecting them is when citizens think officers have crossed the line of violating the law rather than upholding the law.
Unfortunately, in my view, all too many citizens lately are mistakenly accusing some officers of crossing the line. The big question, in my mind, is rather these mistaken citizens actually add up to a big problem in our country, or are they really a minority of either black or white citizens. In other words, are we making a mountain out of a molehill?
...while anarchy refers to a society without a publicly enforced government.
We must respect law enforcement officers who protect us from those who break the laws. However, this respect requires law enforcement officers to also obey the laws and rules of conduct prescribed to them.
The line only becomes thin between respecting officers and not respecting them is when citizens think officers have crossed the line of violating the law rather than upholding the law.
Unfortunately, in my view, all too many citizens lately are mistakenly accusing some officers of crossing the line. The big question, in my mind, is rather these mistaken citizens actually add up to a big problem in our country, or are they really a minority of either black or white citizens. In other words, are we making a mountain out of a molehill?
There you go again
"choked to death" Garner was not choked to death. He died of cardiac arrest in the ambulance well after the arrest. That chokehold narrative has about as much credibility as the Brown having his hands up.
The fact of the matter is that in both of these cases the police were answering a call. These were not self-initiated contacts. Brown committed a felony in the presence of the officer. Ordinary citizens determined that force used was not excessive in each case. So the question is . . . .what were you protesting? Police brutality? I won't deny that has happened (in fact I have been professionally involved with several cases) but that is an ongoing issue mostly because of the stressful and horrible environment cops work in every day. Why now? The grand jury? Those are people just like you. Do you really want that system to yield to public opinion or demonstrations? GJ independence works for all of us. The DA's. Well, they can be voted out of office. And the criticism that they presented too much evidence sounds as silly as it is. (And that ham sandwich argument doesn't apply either). Black lives matter? Of course they do. What is the need to protest about that unless it is a "just cuz" protest. You seem to be more intelligent than the average protester, (at least the average protester that I've seen talk on TV) and you have made mistakes about the basis of your protest.
Many people protest just cuz. They don't have the wherewithal to make a difference in the world by curing cancer or solving the problems of superconductivity, so they take to the streets. I'm not accusing you, just generalizing because you are here.
I'm sorry that people get mistreated because they are in the wrong neighborhood. Really. But the question you need to ask yourself now, why is that? Now that two officers were assassinated*, and there is much social media conversation about more to come, do you think the other officers will be justified in being extra careful when answering a call in a high crime neighborhood of color? You mentioned once before about officers being more careful when approaching a vehicle driven by an African American than a white is racism. Is it really? You have a role in that circumstance, at least until the current tension blows over.
BTW, if you have paid attention, you'll know that I have posted here often about the need for effective gun control laws and criticized congress for making gun manufacturers and distributors immune from claims. I am not part of the "guns don't kill people" crowd.
*In Brooklyn, the scene of "What do we want? Dead cops! When do we want it? Now!" protest.
"choked to death" Garner was not choked to death. He died of cardiac arrest in the ambulance well after the arrest. That chokehold narrative has about as much credibility as the Brown having his hands up.
The fact of the matter is that in both of these cases the police were answering a call. These were not self-initiated contacts. Brown committed a felony in the presence of the officer. Ordinary citizens determined that force used was not excessive in each case. So the question is . . . .what were you protesting? Police brutality? I won't deny that has happened (in fact I have been professionally involved with several cases) but that is an ongoing issue mostly because of the stressful and horrible environment cops work in every day. Why now? The grand jury? Those are people just like you. Do you really want that system to yield to public opinion or demonstrations? GJ independence works for all of us. The DA's. Well, they can be voted out of office. And the criticism that they presented too much evidence sounds as silly as it is. (And that ham sandwich argument doesn't apply either). Black lives matter? Of course they do. What is the need to protest about that unless it is a "just cuz" protest. You seem to be more intelligent than the average protester, (at least the average protester that I've seen talk on TV) and you have made mistakes about the basis of your protest.
Many people protest just cuz. They don't have the wherewithal to make a difference in the world by curing cancer or solving the problems of superconductivity, so they take to the streets. I'm not accusing you, just generalizing because you are here.
I'm sorry that people get mistreated because they are in the wrong neighborhood. Really. But the question you need to ask yourself now, why is that? Now that two officers were assassinated*, and there is much social media conversation about more to come, do you think the other officers will be justified in being extra careful when answering a call in a high crime neighborhood of color? You mentioned once before about officers being more careful when approaching a vehicle driven by an African American than a white is racism. Is it really? You have a role in that circumstance, at least until the current tension blows over.
BTW, if you have paid attention, you'll know that I have posted here often about the need for effective gun control laws and criticized congress for making gun manufacturers and distributors immune from claims. I am not part of the "guns don't kill people" crowd.
*In Brooklyn, the scene of "What do we want? Dead cops! When do we want it? Now!" protest.
One of my fraternity brothers teaches at the Police Academy
He told me he teaches that you can, 'protect and serve or act like a militaty unit but you can't do both". He is retired from Juvenile Justice, the US Army Reserve with tours in Afganistain and is close to a pension from Eastern Kentucky University. I really feel that the current crises is caused by the "war on drugs" and MADD. The lack of respect for probable cause really pisses people off.
This post was edited on 12/21 10:11 PM by Rockport Zebra
This post was edited on 12/21 10:12 PM by Rockport Zebra
He told me he teaches that you can, 'protect and serve or act like a militaty unit but you can't do both". He is retired from Juvenile Justice, the US Army Reserve with tours in Afganistain and is close to a pension from Eastern Kentucky University. I really feel that the current crises is caused by the "war on drugs" and MADD. The lack of respect for probable cause really pisses people off.
This post was edited on 12/21 10:11 PM by Rockport Zebra
This post was edited on 12/21 10:12 PM by Rockport Zebra
I've thought about our military as an occupational force...
...and have concluded this type of duty does resemble that of a U.S. police officer in some respects, and may require different training than the training a combatant receives.
RZ, would like to hear your fraternity brother's comment on my strictly layman conclusion.
As to drugs and crime in general, I've got the feeling some suburban police officers may treat suspects differently than do inner city policemen depending on the community. The training and attitudes of officers have to vary greatly from community to community. What happens in Elizabeth, NY could be entirely different than what occurs in Long Island just a few miles away in terms of police and citizen relations.
This post was edited on 12/22 6:17 PM by hoot1
...and have concluded this type of duty does resemble that of a U.S. police officer in some respects, and may require different training than the training a combatant receives.
RZ, would like to hear your fraternity brother's comment on my strictly layman conclusion.
As to drugs and crime in general, I've got the feeling some suburban police officers may treat suspects differently than do inner city policemen depending on the community. The training and attitudes of officers have to vary greatly from community to community. What happens in Elizabeth, NY could be entirely different than what occurs in Long Island just a few miles away in terms of police and citizen relations.
This post was edited on 12/22 6:17 PM by hoot1
So, you think Zeke is partly responsible...
for police being more careful when approaching a vehicle driven by an African-American than a vehicle driven by a white? Is that what you mean?
Police officers have an incredibly tough job. There are a great many honest police officers who do that incredibly tough job extremely well and desperately want safety and justice for all. There are some who don't. There are some who would be served by better training. There are some who no amount of training would help.
There are a great many protesters who have legitimate grievances that they pursue with peaceful intelligence and careful consideration. There are some protesters who protest because it feels good to vent. There are some people who glom onto protests as vehicle for entertainment or for their own enrichment.
We all need to try to discern the internal differences in these groups better because doing so leads us to better societal outcomes. And in doing so, we find that the great many honest police officers who want safety and justice for all and the great many protesters who pursue legitimate grievances with peace intelligence and careful consideration aren't opponents. In fact, they want the same thing and have the opportunity in this difficult time to have a discussion about how to get there if people would stop following idiots on both sides down the "What do we want? Dead Cops!" or the "Put the animals down!" rat holes.
for police being more careful when approaching a vehicle driven by an African-American than a vehicle driven by a white? Is that what you mean?
Police officers have an incredibly tough job. There are a great many honest police officers who do that incredibly tough job extremely well and desperately want safety and justice for all. There are some who don't. There are some who would be served by better training. There are some who no amount of training would help.
There are a great many protesters who have legitimate grievances that they pursue with peaceful intelligence and careful consideration. There are some protesters who protest because it feels good to vent. There are some people who glom onto protests as vehicle for entertainment or for their own enrichment.
We all need to try to discern the internal differences in these groups better because doing so leads us to better societal outcomes. And in doing so, we find that the great many honest police officers who want safety and justice for all and the great many protesters who pursue legitimate grievances with peace intelligence and careful consideration aren't opponents. In fact, they want the same thing and have the opportunity in this difficult time to have a discussion about how to get there if people would stop following idiots on both sides down the "What do we want? Dead Cops!" or the "Put the animals down!" rat holes.
No that isn't what I mean
Zeke is a representative of the class who increased the tension one of the side effects of which forces cops to now take extra measures to protect themselves instead of devoting that effort to doing their job.
Zeke is a representative of the class who increased the tension one of the side effects of which forces cops to now take extra measures to protect themselves instead of devoting that effort to doing their job.
I don't think we are making a mountain out of a molehill
The political liberal attitude to this issue (as shown by the NYC administration) is for the police to avoid confrontations and arrests unless absolutely necessary. The end result will be more crime and disorder in the African American communities of NYC and throughout America. Police all over the country are being instructed today to avoid those who are intending to provoke confrontations. This is unfortunate, because we have only a loudmouthed minority who brought us to this point. Meanwhile, those law-abiding citizens (like the store owners who played by the rules that Garner ignored, or that clerk in Ferguson who Brown strong-armed) who must live and work in African American communities suffer the consequences. The result is we will produce more petty criminals like Brown and Garner who will die an early death. The beat goes on.
The political liberal attitude to this issue (as shown by the NYC administration) is for the police to avoid confrontations and arrests unless absolutely necessary. The end result will be more crime and disorder in the African American communities of NYC and throughout America. Police all over the country are being instructed today to avoid those who are intending to provoke confrontations. This is unfortunate, because we have only a loudmouthed minority who brought us to this point. Meanwhile, those law-abiding citizens (like the store owners who played by the rules that Garner ignored, or that clerk in Ferguson who Brown strong-armed) who must live and work in African American communities suffer the consequences. The result is we will produce more petty criminals like Brown and Garner who will die an early death. The beat goes on.
Liberals and conservatives in my mixed neighborhood...
...believe the police are our friends because they are trained to deal with crime situations along with dealing with suspects in such a way as to make violent potential confrontations less likely.
In other words, we want our police to deal with suspected criminal activity without provoking suspects along with using appropriate force.
The question for the country as a whole, is whether my neighborhood model will prevail. I have faith enough in our citizens and the police dedicated to serving and protecting to believe highly publicized recent events are in fact making a mountain out of a molehill when looking at the nation as a whole.
...believe the police are our friends because they are trained to deal with crime situations along with dealing with suspects in such a way as to make violent potential confrontations less likely.
In other words, we want our police to deal with suspected criminal activity without provoking suspects along with using appropriate force.
The question for the country as a whole, is whether my neighborhood model will prevail. I have faith enough in our citizens and the police dedicated to serving and protecting to believe highly publicized recent events are in fact making a mountain out of a molehill when looking at the nation as a whole.
How to de-escalate tense situations is a part of all cop training
at least all cop training that I am aware. That is a normal national standard of care topic. Admittedly though, some cops are better at that than others.
One officer I came to know quite well was the nicest and most unassuming person you'd want to know. If you met him, you think he might be a human resource manager instead of a cop. He commanded the SWAT team. A claim of excessive force was the reason I defended him--successfully. It wasn't me. He was an excellent witness on his own behalf and the jury really liked him. In another excessive force I worked on (a TASER death) three deputies were sued. We didn't go to trial with that, but we used a mock jury to help us with the case. In the mock jury debrief, they said they were surprised about how much training police have in negotiation and trying to calm down a violent individual. Cops know that confrontations are dangerous for them and try to avoid that. But then, none of the cases I was involved with had a black/white dimension. From what I heard and read since the Brown and Garner cases, it seems there is a lot of angst and distrust out there from the African American community towards the cops. That obviously increases tensions. IMHO, and based upon my knowledge of standard police training about de-escalating and profiling, I think there is an overreaction. Lotsa stories are based upon "I heard about a guy who knows a guy" type stuff. Even in Ferguson, some of the witnesses gave statements as if they saw the whole thing when instead they just heard the stories. However; I haven't spoken with officers who spend a substantial portion of their careers dealing with racial issues. Those cops could have different sensitivities.
This post was edited on 12/22 7:17 PM by CO. Hoosier
at least all cop training that I am aware. That is a normal national standard of care topic. Admittedly though, some cops are better at that than others.
One officer I came to know quite well was the nicest and most unassuming person you'd want to know. If you met him, you think he might be a human resource manager instead of a cop. He commanded the SWAT team. A claim of excessive force was the reason I defended him--successfully. It wasn't me. He was an excellent witness on his own behalf and the jury really liked him. In another excessive force I worked on (a TASER death) three deputies were sued. We didn't go to trial with that, but we used a mock jury to help us with the case. In the mock jury debrief, they said they were surprised about how much training police have in negotiation and trying to calm down a violent individual. Cops know that confrontations are dangerous for them and try to avoid that. But then, none of the cases I was involved with had a black/white dimension. From what I heard and read since the Brown and Garner cases, it seems there is a lot of angst and distrust out there from the African American community towards the cops. That obviously increases tensions. IMHO, and based upon my knowledge of standard police training about de-escalating and profiling, I think there is an overreaction. Lotsa stories are based upon "I heard about a guy who knows a guy" type stuff. Even in Ferguson, some of the witnesses gave statements as if they saw the whole thing when instead they just heard the stories. However; I haven't spoken with officers who spend a substantial portion of their careers dealing with racial issues. Those cops could have different sensitivities.
This post was edited on 12/22 7:17 PM by CO. Hoosier
That sounds a whole lot like lawyer-ese
What exactly is the difference between,
"Zeke is a representative of the class who increased the tension one of the side effects of which forces cops to now take extra measures to protect themselves instead of devoting that effort to doing their job."
and
"So, you think Zeke is party responsible for police being more careful when approaching a vehicle driven by an African-American than a vehicle driven by a white?"
It seems like lawyerly parsing to quibble over the meaning between "is responsible for" and "is a representative of a class who".
Meanwhile, there's plenty police and protesters can work on together to improve this situation.
This post was edited on 12/22 10:03 PM by hoosboot
What exactly is the difference between,
"Zeke is a representative of the class who increased the tension one of the side effects of which forces cops to now take extra measures to protect themselves instead of devoting that effort to doing their job."
and
"So, you think Zeke is party responsible for police being more careful when approaching a vehicle driven by an African-American than a vehicle driven by a white?"
It seems like lawyerly parsing to quibble over the meaning between "is responsible for" and "is a representative of a class who".
Meanwhile, there's plenty police and protesters can work on together to improve this situation.
This post was edited on 12/22 10:03 PM by hoosboot
can we compare and contrast
Earlier this year 2 people in Las Vagas shot and killed 2 officers who were eating pizza. The shooters had attended the Bundy protests, and had made social media comments about the need to kill law enforcement. The government had backed down from Bundy and his backers.
There is not a lot of respect for authority from either fringe. If there is a difference between the two killings, I don't see it.
Earlier this year 2 people in Las Vagas shot and killed 2 officers who were eating pizza. The shooters had attended the Bundy protests, and had made social media comments about the need to kill law enforcement. The government had backed down from Bundy and his backers.
There is not a lot of respect for authority from either fringe. If there is a difference between the two killings, I don't see it.
I don't think there is a difference between the killings
and these incidents confirm my belief that at the fringes, there is no right or left, only fringe.
But that doesn't mean there aren't larger issues which contrast with one another. On the right, there is a general distrust of government and general affection for law enforcement. On the left there is a general distrust of law enforcement and a general affection for government.
The larger point I tried to make in my post was about the constant loudmouthed soundbites we see from the left as they try to support their otherwise feeble arguments. "Hands up don't shoot," "choked to death," "What do we want? Dead cops! When do we want it? Now!" being current, conspicuous and stupid examples. Sharpton & Co. also recently began calling the police "occupiers" of the minority community. Well, officers Liu and Ramos were indeed occupying Brooklyn. They were not in their normal patrol area, but working overtime, and were assigned there simply to provide a visible police presence because of gang trouble between two public housing projects in the area. They were there at the request of the law-abiding people who lived and worked in that immediate area and wanted more law enforcement. We also know that increased police presence in minority areas will result in increased arrests of minorities which will result in Sharpton & Co. and other left wing nut jobs talking about targeting, profiling, and occupying forces. The left brings these together and the stupid media and politicians pander to this meme. To the extent the left is effective with these gripes and bitches, the only people who will suffer are those who want a visible police presence and want to live there without drugs, shootings, and lawlessness.
and these incidents confirm my belief that at the fringes, there is no right or left, only fringe.
But that doesn't mean there aren't larger issues which contrast with one another. On the right, there is a general distrust of government and general affection for law enforcement. On the left there is a general distrust of law enforcement and a general affection for government.
The larger point I tried to make in my post was about the constant loudmouthed soundbites we see from the left as they try to support their otherwise feeble arguments. "Hands up don't shoot," "choked to death," "What do we want? Dead cops! When do we want it? Now!" being current, conspicuous and stupid examples. Sharpton & Co. also recently began calling the police "occupiers" of the minority community. Well, officers Liu and Ramos were indeed occupying Brooklyn. They were not in their normal patrol area, but working overtime, and were assigned there simply to provide a visible police presence because of gang trouble between two public housing projects in the area. They were there at the request of the law-abiding people who lived and worked in that immediate area and wanted more law enforcement. We also know that increased police presence in minority areas will result in increased arrests of minorities which will result in Sharpton & Co. and other left wing nut jobs talking about targeting, profiling, and occupying forces. The left brings these together and the stupid media and politicians pander to this meme. To the extent the left is effective with these gripes and bitches, the only people who will suffer are those who want a visible police presence and want to live there without drugs, shootings, and lawlessness.
You have seemed
to have confirmed your prior beliefs.
You see loud mouthed support for arguments from the left. A rancher violating a court order becomes a folk hero on the right. That is until he opined on the the plight of "blacks".
People in poor communities want police protection. Their gripe is that police protection is biased. Doubt it? I have noted that whites are significantly less likely to be arrested and jailed for pot possession. The response on this board is that cops are doing a better job or white people have better lawyers, etc.
People think that the protests in Ferguson are simply about one incident. Ferguson has one of the highest property tax rates in Missouri. That is to pay for a failing school system. The Ferguson school system failed accreditation. The school system next to it also failed accreditation. It also went bankrupt. The state decided to merge the two bankrupt, highly taxed and unaccredited systems. That seems like a success plan. Missouri law allows students in unaccredited systems to attend other schools without paying a fee. The state has accredited the school systems without improvement and forcing parents to pay if they want their kids to attend an accredited state school.
When a station in Baltimore shows a clip with the phrase "kill a cop", people talk about it. When the retraction comes people forget.
to have confirmed your prior beliefs.
You see loud mouthed support for arguments from the left. A rancher violating a court order becomes a folk hero on the right. That is until he opined on the the plight of "blacks".
People in poor communities want police protection. Their gripe is that police protection is biased. Doubt it? I have noted that whites are significantly less likely to be arrested and jailed for pot possession. The response on this board is that cops are doing a better job or white people have better lawyers, etc.
People think that the protests in Ferguson are simply about one incident. Ferguson has one of the highest property tax rates in Missouri. That is to pay for a failing school system. The Ferguson school system failed accreditation. The school system next to it also failed accreditation. It also went bankrupt. The state decided to merge the two bankrupt, highly taxed and unaccredited systems. That seems like a success plan. Missouri law allows students in unaccredited systems to attend other schools without paying a fee. The state has accredited the school systems without improvement and forcing parents to pay if they want their kids to attend an accredited state school.
When a station in Baltimore shows a clip with the phrase "kill a cop", people talk about it. When the retraction comes people forget.
I don't follow much of this
What is the point about schools in Ferguson? If you are saying lack of quality education is part of the reason for racial problems, I agree.
I have heard over and over that whites are much less likely to be jailed for pot possession that blacks. Can you link the source, not the commentary but talks about that but the actual source? I'm thinking this is similar to the left wing talking points such as women make 70 cents for every dollar a man makes, or that more blacks are in prison that whites, as support for charges of sexism or racism. In reality, the data supporting these two stats have little to do with sexism or racism but stem from other factors.
Oh and I never defended Bundy. But I did criticize the nature of the federal response to him. It could have been handled much much better. Shooting cattle was stupid. A couple of cowpokes on good horses and with good dogs could have easily rounded up the cattle for transport.
What is the point about schools in Ferguson? If you are saying lack of quality education is part of the reason for racial problems, I agree.
I have heard over and over that whites are much less likely to be jailed for pot possession that blacks. Can you link the source, not the commentary but talks about that but the actual source? I'm thinking this is similar to the left wing talking points such as women make 70 cents for every dollar a man makes, or that more blacks are in prison that whites, as support for charges of sexism or racism. In reality, the data supporting these two stats have little to do with sexism or racism but stem from other factors.
Oh and I never defended Bundy. But I did criticize the nature of the federal response to him. It could have been handled much much better. Shooting cattle was stupid. A couple of cowpokes on good horses and with good dogs could have easily rounded up the cattle for transport.
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