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Supremes OK partisan gerrymandering

Republicans: Why we can't have nice things.

In Rucho v. Common Cause, the Court ruled that even the most egregious partisan gerrymandering was a “political question” beyond the reach of the federal courts. In this case, the Court’s signal was clear: No matter how much partisan gerrymanders disenfranchise voters, the Court will not interfere.

While the Court’s position is clear, however, how states will respond is not. As Eric Levitz of New York magazine points out, large blue states will have to decide whether to engage in nonpartisan districting as a model or whether they will try to engage in the most aggressive pro-Democratic gerrymanders computer technology makes possible. One perverse upshot of Rucho is that the more unfair a state’s elections, the more representation they receive at the national level, making an eventual race to the bottom likely.

The end result will ultimately make democracy worse while being a net plus for Republicans. Which is also a fair summary of the impact of the Roberts Court — an impact that is only likely to deepen in the coming years.
In Rucho the Supreme Court blessed both Republican and Democratic gerrymanders, but make no mistake: It's the GOP that's engaged in a rearguard battle to disenfranchise growing majorities against them. It's so preposterous that when they subvert the census they claim they're doing it to help them enforce the Voting Rights Act. Even John Roberts couldn't claim he believed that.

No the court did not bless extreme partisan gerrymandering. Read the opinion.

Moreover, it’s silly to think that lopsided districts disenfranchise voters. I live in a lopsided district. And I bet you a six-pack that the bi-partisan commission won’t materially change it when it acts in 2021. The gerrymandering = disenfranchisement point is not an argument.
 
I think this is the best answer to gerrymandering, double the size of the House. Using ranked choice voting, get down to two final candidates. Let us use a district in Indiana, if the GOP candidate wins 55-45 over a Dem, the Republican gets .55 votes and the Democrat goes and gets .45 votes. If the GOP packs all Dems into one district to "win" multiple, the one district could get .98 votes Democratic. There is no advantage to packing at all.

I don’t think we solve the problems in congress by making a bigger congress.

If we really want to do something useful at the national level, I’d suggest term-limits which I think would tend to diminish the influence of entrenched special interests. Too many members think of themselves as part of the ruling elite and not as representatives of the people. I think term limits would also lessen the importance of gerrymandering by lessening the importance of seats safe for a particular member.
 
I don’t think we solve the problems in congress by making a bigger congress.

If we really want to do something useful at the national level, I’d suggest term-limits which I think would tend to diminish the influence of entrenched special interests. Too many members think of themselves as part of the ruling elite and not as representatives of the people. I think term limits would also lessen the importance of gerrymandering by lessening the importance of seats safe for a particular member.

The representatives belong to party uber alles. It does not matter who occupies a seat if their first loyalty is to the party.

You extoll competition in most things, why not in elections? Why are elections immune from the magical effects of competition. In most districts there is none. Term limits will not increase competition in gerrymandered districts.
 
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The representatives belong to party uber alles. It does not matter who occupies a seat if their first loyalty is to the party.

You extoll competition in most things, why not in elections? Why are elections immune from the magical effects of competition. In most districts there is none. Term limits will not increase competition in gerrymandered districts.

The house operates on seniority. That is why so little gets done. That is why so few rule the roost. I can go on. Elections for a lifetime is not good.
 
The house operates on seniority. That is why so little gets done. That is why so few rule the roost. I can go on. Elections for a lifetime is not good.

Again, why do you argue against competition? Does competition work? Why not set its magic on Congress. If districts were close to 50-50 as possible, most would not serve long enough to worry about a corrupt seniority system. Yes, it should be eliminated. But if Ford realized that people who buy Ford would always buy Ford no matter what, they would still be making the Granada and Pinto from the last time people bought a Ford no matter what.

American car companies improved because Honda/Toyota beat the crap out of them. Why not find a way to elect on something other than brand name.
 
I wonder if your constant questioning of my professional abilities raises the same ire in @Aloha Hoosier that Rock's comments about you do.
I for one have a lot of respect for you taking care of your mother and making a serious professional career change and evidently succeeding to whatever extent you are succeeding. I recommend one of my favorite books, Introduction to Scientology Ethics. It's chock full of information on how to take any life endeavor, personal, business or otherwise, from scratch to power. (Not that you solicited or are interested in my recommendation.)
 
Bullshit. You made several snide remarks about my professional capability. Don't pretend otherwise.

I don't think so, but I'll reconsider if you cite examples. I diagreed with your take on Oberlin and on gerrymandering. I never said you were disengenous or in bad faith as you often do with me. If you think disagreement is the same as criticizing ability, I can't control that.
 
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I for one have a lot of respect for you taking care of your mother and making a serious professional career change and evidently succeeding to whatever extent your are succeeding. I recommend one of my favorite books, Introduction to Scientology Ethics. It's chock full of information on how to take any life endeavor, personal, business or otherwise from scratch to power.
This is either a new lurker, or lurker is totally nuts.
 
I for one have a lot of respect for you taking care of your mother and making a serious professional career change and evidently succeeding to whatever extent you are succeeding. I recommend one of my favorite books, Introduction to Scientology Ethics. It's chock full of information on how to take any life endeavor, personal, business or otherwise from scratch to power. (Not that you solicited or are interested in my recommendation.)
I thank you for your respect, but I honestly feel it more of a duty than a gift. I think any child who can afford to support himself should also take care of his ailing parent once his other parent who was the source of her support is gone. I do not consider the choices I made to be extraordinary at all. If they are extraordinary, then that is a sad statement on the state of our culture.
 
Lurker is nuts, obviously, but he's not a sociopath. He's long demonstrated his ability to respect people while also arrogantly deriding them for believing things he doesn't. ;)
I'm going to respectfully correct that to "also incompetently failing to communicate satisfactorily," believe it or not. :cool:
 
I thank you for your respect, but I honestly feel it more of a duty than a gift. I think any child who can afford to support himself should also take care of his ailing parent once his other parent who was the source of her support is gone. I do not consider the choices I made to be extraordinary at all. If they are extraordinary, then that is a sad statement on the state of our culture.
I'm going to add that I think it's both a blessing for you to be able to spend that time with her and an ability to make it go right while others aren't. I'm guessing it's also an indicator that you have (or have in the process developed) a great deal of patience.
 
Yeah, it was a personal attack. I've withheld it for a long while. No longer. Do you think you should be immune?



In this thread I've been called a jackleg lawyer, a disgrace to the legal profession, accused of posting in bad faith and of being disingenuous. And you think I am juvenile? I've practiced law for more than 50 years. In all that time, I've met only two lawyers who behave as you and the @Rockfish1, do. I don't know if you both think your crap has an impact on me or not. But let me remove all doubt. It doesn't. Not even a little bit.
At the risk of interjecting something here, I'm going to interject something here.

I think you often view your own posting as Socratic in method, by whatever term you like to call it. Of course there's no reason you shouldn't post here as you wish for your own entertainment. As a point of understanding, a Socratic dialogue presumes that both interlocutors are in agreement on using that method. Here, however, you don't ask for or receive that agreement and your fellow interlocutors take your assertions as bad faith because they come across that way. Given that understanding, viewing the accusation of bad-faith posting as an ad hominem is incorrect. It's rather a description. What's closer to the nature of ad hominem in such dialogues is your implicit behavior toward your fellow interlocutor -- foisting the Socratic Method on someone else implies your superiority.

Food for thought.
 
At the risk of interjecting something here, I'm going to interject something here.

I think you often view your own posting as Socratic in method, by whatever term you like to call it. Of course there's no reason you shouldn't post here as you wish for your own entertainment. As a point of understanding, a Socratic dialogue presumes that both interlocutors are in agreement on using that method. Here, however, you don't ask for or receive that agreement and your fellow interlocutors take your assertions as bad faith because they come across that way. Given that understanding, viewing the accusation of bad-faith posting as an ad hominem is incorrect. It's rather a description. What's closer to the nature of ad hominem in such dialogues is your implicit behavior toward your fellow interlocutor -- foisting the Socratic Method on someone else implies your superiority.

Food for thought.

OMG, I was going to say something similar about CO's posting style being Socratic while most of us debate our actual beliefs. Now I am hopelessly confused.
 
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At the risk of interjecting something here, I'm going to interject something here.

I think you often view your own posting as Socratic in method, by whatever term you like to call it. Of course there's no reason you shouldn't post here as you wish for your own entertainment. As a point of understanding, a Socratic dialogue presumes that both interlocutors are in agreement on using that method. Here, however, you don't ask for or receive that agreement and your fellow interlocutors take your assertions as bad faith because they come across that way. Given that understanding, viewing the accusation of bad-faith posting as an ad hominem is incorrect. It's rather a description. What's closer to the nature of ad hominem in such dialogues is your implicit behavior toward your fellow interlocutor -- foisting the Socratic Method on someone else implies your superiority.

Food for thought.
OMG, I was going to say something similar about CO's posting style being Socratic while most of us debate our actual beliefs. Now I am hopelessly confused.
The problem is that CO.H isn't being Socratic. He's being obtuse. He is trying to deflect the conversation away from things he doesn't want to discuss, and claims the Socratic method as the reason. It's a lie. You guys are too smart to fall for it.
 
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OMG, I was going to say something similar about CO's posting style being Socratic while most of us debate our actual beliefs. Now I am hopelessly confused.
I think what I was saying was simply that forcing the Socratic method on others without their agreement is arrogant and condescending.
 
The problem is that CO.H isn't being Socratic. He's being obtuse. He is trying to deflect the conversation away from things he doesn't want to discuss, and claims the Socratic method as the reason. It's a lie. You guys are too smart to fall for it.
Well, there's another alternative. He's playing the Devil's Advocate and saying, I'm going to screw with your mind as much as possible, just to see if you can somehow manage to unwind my complicate bullcrap.
 
To simplify. I often post with some idea of what a response might be, and what my reply might be to the response. I even argue with myself by figuring out what I’d say in response to my posts. (Like playing solitaire chess). This is particularly true when we are discussing politics, law and such. Often, maybe even most of the time, responses are about ME. Sometimes I joke about that, sometimes I respond in kind, but most of time I ignore it. The Socratic method is built on give and take and open discussion. I think that is the natural state of discussing ideas. I don’t think it is foisting anything. That seldom happens here. We discuss people.
And here you pretend to be thinking three moves ahead. Very humble of you.

Not at all true.

But very humble.
 
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You see deflection. I see irrelevant arguments. Your discussion of the Oberlin verdict is a perfect example. From the get go you were stuck on free speech and I tried to discuss IIED. The difference is I explained my point and I called your attention to Snyder which explains the point very well. You just typically started in with the pejoratives and followed the reasoning of academics who didn’t understand the dynamics of the trial.
LOL.
 
At the risk of interjecting something here, I'm going to interject something here.

I think you often view your own posting as Socratic in method, by whatever term you like to call it. Of course there's no reason you shouldn't post here as you wish for your own entertainment. As a point of understanding, a Socratic dialogue presumes that both interlocutors are in agreement on using that method. Here, however, you don't ask for or receive that agreement and your fellow interlocutors take your assertions as bad faith because they come across that way. Given that understanding, viewing the accusation of bad-faith posting as an ad hominem is incorrect. It's rather a description. What's closer to the nature of ad hominem in such dialogues is your implicit behavior toward your fellow interlocutor -- foisting the Socratic Method on someone else implies your superiority.

Food for thought.

Hm. First of all, I, and I think you, understand that a Socratic method of discussion cannot be unilateral. Mostly, I think this is the natural way to discuss ideas, it really doesn't take a mother-may-I predicate. I don't think asking questions or splitting hairs (which I freely admit to) is "foisting" anything on anybody. I have no idea how you bring bad faith into this point. "Bad faith" together with "disgrace to the legal profession," "jackleg," "bad poster," "lacking self awareness" and other invectives, or simple LOL's mostly come up as a way to avoid responding to a point. It's pretty clearly an admission that the poster has nothing important to say but is desperate to post a response. Discussions around here often turn into discussions about posters, (like your post and my response). Discussing people is always easier and less taxing than discussing ideas; but such discussions are never as interesting. Maybe I have an "implicit behavior" to other posters or maybe not. But if I do, I can assure you that it isn't antagonistic except for some cases when I am returning serve. I consider all here (except for two) friends. Even when I make respectful comments to the two hostiles, I'm seldom met with a serious response.

The bottom line is, yeah, I do probe, split hairs, cajole, and try to be somewhat provocative with posts--when discussing ideas or legal issues. I don't force anybody to read what I say. Food for thought.
 
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Hm. First of all, I, and I think you, understand that a Socratic method of discussion cannot be unilateral. Mostly, I think this is the natural way to discuss ideas, it really doesn't take a mother-may-I predicate. I don't think asking questions or splitting hairs (which I freely admit to) is "foisting" anything on anybody. I have no idea how you bring bad faith into this point. "Bad faith" together with "disgrace to the legal profession," "jackleg," "bad poster," "lacking self awareness" and other invectives, or simple LOL's mostly come up as a way to avoid responding to a point. It's pretty clearly an admission that the poster has nothing important to say but is desperate to post a response. Discussions around here often turn into discussions about posters, (like your post and my response). Discussing people is always easier and less taxing than discussing ideas; but such discussions are never as interesting. Maybe I have an "implicit behavior" to other posters or maybe not. But if I do, I can assure you that it isn't antagonistic except for some cases when I am returning serve. I consider all here (except for two) friends. Even when I make respectful comments to the two hostiles, I'm seldom met with a serious response.

The bottom line is, yeah, I do probe, split hairs, cajole, and try to be somewhat provocative with posts--when discussing ideas or legal issues. I don't force anybody to read what I say. Food for thought.
1. A discerning view reveals that my post was framed as a discussion on ideas. The only aspect that made it about you was using you to exemplify the ideas. I could have used "one" instead of "you" and the effect probaby wouldn't have been any different. You might have even assumed that one was you.

2. Let's stipulate this definition of the Socratic Method:

[The Socratic Method] involves finding truth through direct questioning. These questions seek to find consistency and point out contradictions. The method is used to find truth and question assumptions through a series of steps. These steps include examining a claim, questioning that claim, and finding true knowledge.​

My impression is that what generally occurs here on the WC when actually discussing ideas is sometimes the above form and the rest of the time, the two people have preformed their own truth and have no intention of arriving at "the" truth via the Socratic Method. The latter case is not actually Socratic, only the former.

Other possibilities are using the questioning to simply test one's reasoning or ability to reason, to test one's ability to spot and weed out sophistry, and a host of similar goals.

3. Using the Socratic Method for anything other than seeking some truth is some degree of deviation from its original intent and unless explicitly agreed upon by both parties, thus introduces a second, unspoken and ambiguous, goal into the context.

For example, one person might be assiduously striving to attain some truth while the other is sending him down a thousand rabbit holes of sophistry to test his ability to spot them. I think it's clear to anyone that the person striving for truth is likely to become exasperated with the other sooner or later, because he is erroneously assuming the other person is abiding by the standard definition of the Socratic Method.

If the above example becomes a pattern of behavior for a particular person in a group of people, that is, many of those people are seeking truth and becoming exasperated with that one person, it's understandable that those people will try to resolve their frustrations and that involves talking to that person about that person.
 
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The IU Psych Department used to (and maybe still does) have Thursday lunches in which professors would gather and one or another would present some current research. The others would then proceed to attack the research from every conceivable angle (within the framework of quality academic research). The goal was to eradicate bad research and proof up good research from attacks from outside the department once the research became published. An additional goal was to prepare the researcher to communicate effectively about the research. It was good sport and one wasn't to take it personally, though that's often easier said than done. It's an excellent exercise for thickening one's skin.

COH, you'd have loved it.
 
The IU Psych Department used to (and maybe still does) have Thursday lunches in which professors would gather and one or another would present some current research. The others would then proceed to attack the research from every conceivable angle (within the framework of quality academic research). The goal was to eradicate bad research and proof up good research from attacks from outside the department once the research became published. An additional goal was to prepare the researcher to communicate effectively about the research. It was good sport and one wasn't to take it personally, though that's often easier said than done. It's an excellent exercise for thickening one's skin.

COH, you'd have loved it.

You are probably correct about that. That reminds me of the Friday TGIF's during law school. A few professors (the most challenging ones) and some students would routinely meet at the neighborhood bar and discuss issues in much the same way. I learned a lot about law and lawyering over those beers. Everyone enjoyed it.
 
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