Some thoughts on perception of paid players and dirty programs

[Squonk too]

I’ll go off on a limb and say that the general perception that programs are dirty is mostly paranoia or jealousy.

In my opinion I think what is more likely is that individual assistant coaches or boosters are unscrupulous or even that individual recruited players and their families are shady.

Of course there is always the one off Coach Rick Pitino who left a mess and now can’t get a job anywhere.

God forbid IU ever finds itself in similar situation but don’t be naïve and think that we are immune.

 

[cryano]

I’ll go off on a limb and say that the general perception that programs are dirty is mostly paranoia or jealousy.

In my opinion I think what is more likely is that individual assistant coaches or boosters are unscrupulous or even that individual recruited players and their families are shady.

Of course there is always the one off Coach Rick Pitino who left a mess and now can’t get a job anywhere.

God forbid IU ever finds itself in similar situation but don’t be naïve and think that we are immune.

I do wonder how/why Archie’s Hoosiers have continued to be ‘finalists’ with the scuzzy schools...

Romeo, Brooks, Quinones, Watford etc...thats quite a few in a very short time that IU won or lost out to a school IU fans label as cheats.

 

[namnik]

I’ll go off on a limb and say that the general perception that programs are dirty is mostly paranoia or jealousy.

In my opinion I think what is more likely is that individual assistant coaches or boosters are unscrupulous or even that individual recruited players and their families are shady.

Of course there is always the one off Coach Rick Pitino who left a mess and now can’t get a job anywhere.

God forbid IU ever finds itself in similar situation but don’t be naïve and think that we are immune.

So when LSU paid people, they didn't really "PAY" (WINK WINK) people?

 

[coachv jr]

I’ll go off on a limb and say that the general perception that programs are dirty is mostly paranoia or jealousy.

In my opinion I think what is more likely is that individual assistant coaches or boosters are unscrupulous or even that individual recruited players and their families are shady.

Of course there is always the one off Coach Rick Pitino who left a mess and now can’t get a job anywhere.

God forbid IU ever finds itself in similar situation but don’t be naïve and think that we are immune.

explain "coach" k and duke

 

[gmhowes]

explain "coach" k and duke

It starts and can only stop being allowed to cheat for by the institution that governs the 2A. Shoe deals did not pay The BIG schools $ 54,000,000. The kids did in their shoe of choice from ratings and a wink and a nod from the 2A. That is how this country run’s, the highest bidder.

 

[hookyIU1990]

It starts and can only stop being allowed to cheat for by the institution that governs the 2A. Shoe deals did not pay The BIG schools $ 54,000,000. The kids did in their shoe of choice from ratings and a wink and a nod from the 2A. That is how this country run’s, the highest bidder.

Every BIG school has an apparel deal and the athletes are not wearing their shoe of choice. They're wearing the shoe that the school tells them to wear, based on the contract with the apparel company.

The cheating has been there for far longer than the shoe deals have.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

I’ll go off on a limb and say that the general perception that programs are dirty is mostly paranoia or jealousy.

In my opinion I think what is more likely is that individual assistant coaches or boosters are unscrupulous or even that individual recruited players and their families are shady.

Of course there is always the one off Coach Rick Pitino who left a mess and now can’t get a job anywhere.

God forbid IU ever finds itself in similar situation but don’t be naïve and think that we are immune.

It seems pretty clear that most of the the schools routinely recruiting multiple 5* are directly or indirectly dirty.....otherwise the investment in recruiting time does not pay off....how many is that? 10? After that it's hit or miss cheating.

As an example, I have no reason in particular to think Purdue, Michigan, Illinois, OSU, PSU, Rutgers, Iowa, NW, Wisconsin, Nebraska are dirty. MSU is a definite ? I also wonder about Minnesota because they have a Pitino and they've never done things the right way, and MD, because of the DC environment they recruit in.

 

[choptalk]

I do wonder how/why Archie’s Hoosiers have continued to be ‘finalists’ with the scuzzy schools...

Romeo, Brooks, Quinones, Watford etc...thats quite a few in a very short time that IU won or lost out to a school IU fans label as cheats.

Well, there is no way Knight would have allowed a shoe company to pay a recruit's parent $100,000 to start an AAU team. Like him or not i do believe he played by the rules. I remember him sitting Alford against Ky because Alford had posed for a fund raising calendar. He purposely sat him against KY because they were seen as cheaters.

 

[OhioBoiler51]

It seems pretty clear that most of the the schools routinely recruiting multiple 5* are directly or indirectly dirty.....otherwise the investment in recruiting time does not pay off....how many is that? 10? After that it's hit or miss cheating.

As an example, I have no reason in particular to think Purdue, Michigan, Illinois, OSU, PSU, Rutgers, Iowa, NW, Wisconsin, Nebraska are dirty. MSU is a definite ? I also wonder about Minnesota because they have a Pitino and they've never done things the right way, and MD, because of the DC environment they recruit in.

MSU and Maryland are the two in the Big Ten that I think are probably dirty.

 

[mushroomgod_1]

MSU and Maryland are the two in the Big Ten that I think are probably dirty.

Maryland------who was the 7 footer from Wisconsin? That certainly seemed random. They're doing pretty well in recruiting for having such a crappy coach.....so you have to wonder about them.

 

[coachv jr]

Well, there is no way Knight would have allowed a shoe company to pay a recruit's parent $100,000 to start an AAU team. Like him or not i do believe he played by the rules. I remember him sitting Alford against Ky because Alford had posed for a fund raising calendar. He purposely sat him against KY because they were seen as cheaters.

i believe it was the ncaa that handed down the one game suspension

 

[iubud]

Schools recruiting 5* players run the risk of recruiting and signing a player that has taken illegal benefits along the way. The school may not have been involved, but boosters at that school or one of the other schools could have provided something illegal. The dirt lands at the programs that do not take every precaution to limit access.

An example is Lilly King. She came home to Evansville after the Olympics to be honored at a minor league baseball game. The IU athletic department sent a representative to make sure she wasn't given any improper gifts. I remember they weren't going to allow her to sign any autographs due to the fear they could be sold. I believe they finally allowed her to sign autographs people brought to her, but I am not 100% positive.

Compare that with 30 years ago when UK's Richard Madison as a freshman was allowed entry into a night club/bar to meet a group of men. He never pulled his wallet out and he was bought drinks and food by a group of 40-50 year old men. Or, when Kenny Walker took a helicopter ride to the restaurant near our house 30 miles south of Lexington. You think the NCAA didn't know what every Central Kentucky resident saw everyday?

IU does not have a culture of boosters cheating and administrations that looks the other way. A lot of programs do. There is nothing to stop someone that doesn't know the rules from buying a cheeseburger for a player except for the player to know the rules and decline. Mistakes can happen. They happen to the clean programs.

The dirty programs are as careful and good with hiding cheating as the clean programs are at preventing violations. Coaches in trouble keep their jobs and players keep going to their schools. Nobody fears the NCAA or any punishment they can administer.

 

[Crossblock]

I have a couple of thoughts on this.

1. There is that old NASCAR saying, 'If you aren't cheating you ain't trying". I take that to mean if you haven't stepped up to the line and stuck your nose over it to see what can be done you are not pushing the envelope. Of course there is a big difference in setting up a race car in a way that pushes a Rule and getting a penalty as compared to directly paying a Player or his family in direct violation of the Rules,

2. I am in a Profession that requires Continuing Education including a certain number of Ethics Credits. My position is that people have ethics or they don't. The people who are caught in ethics violations, would have violated the Rules whether or not they were required to obtain these credits.

 

[OhioBoiler51]

Maryland------who was the 7 footer from Wisconsin? That certainly seemed random. They're doing pretty well in recruiting for having such a crappy coach.....so you have to wonder about them.

Diamond stone

 

[gmhowes]

Schools recruiting 5* players run the risk of recruiting and signing a player that has taken illegal benefits along the way. The school may not have been involved, but boosters at that school or one of the other schools could have provided something illegal. The dirt lands at the programs that do not take every precaution to limit access.

An example is Lilly King. She came home to Evansville after the Olympics to be honored at a minor league baseball game. The IU athletic department sent a representative to make sure she wasn't given any improper gifts. I remember they weren't going to allow her to sign any autographs due to the fear they could be sold. I believe they finally allowed her to sign autographs people brought to her, but I am not 100% positive.

Compare that with 30 years ago when UK's Richard Madison as a freshman was allowed entry into a night club/bar to meet a group of men. He never pulled his wallet out and he was bought drinks and food by a group of 40-50 year old men. Or, when Kenny Walker took a helicopter ride to the restaurant near our house 30 miles south of Lexington. You think the NCAA didn't know what every Central Kentucky resident saw everyday?

IU does not have a culture of boosters cheating and administrations that looks the other way. A lot of programs do. There is nothing to stop someone that doesn't know the rules from buying a cheeseburger for a player except for the player to know the rules and decline. Mistakes can happen. They happen to the clean programs.

The dirty programs are as careful and good with hiding cheating as the clean programs are at preventing violations. Coaches in trouble keep their jobs and players keep going to their schools. Nobody fears the NCAA or any punishment they can administer.

I just think it’s not on the kids. Ethics or not, if you know your at a ncaa chosen school and cheat,true fans know who you are. Money corrupts and ratings do count.

 

[mobilehoosier]

If you are hungry and someone offers you food you will eat.
If you need help and someone offers you help you will take it more times than not.
I understand the rules as well as the next guy and don't condone cheating. However, to expect some of these families to turn down life changing assistance because of NCAA rules is garbage. Not going to happen.
I'd like to see assistance packages for kids and their families above the table not under.
Hardship cases should have options that don't include slime. And there will always be slime.
Thoughts?
Go Hoosiers!

 

[hookyIU1990]

If you are hungry and someone offers you food you will eat.
If you need help and someone offers you help you will take it more times than not.
I understand the rules as well as the next guy and don't condone cheating. However, to expect some of these families to turn down life changing assistance because of NCAA rules is garbage. Not going to happen.
I'd like to see assistance packages for kids and their families above the table not under.
Hardship cases should have options that don't include slime. And there will always be slime.
Thoughts?
Go Hoosiers!

It's all happening way before any of them leave high school. What would you propose as an assistance package and who decides which players get it?

 

[coachv jr]

If you are hungry and someone offers you food you will eat.
If you need help and someone offers you help you will take it more times than not.
I understand the rules as well as the next guy and don't condone cheating. However, to expect some of these families to turn down life changing assistance because of NCAA rules is garbage. Not going to happen.
I'd like to see assistance packages for kids and their families above the table not under.
Hardship cases should have options that don't include slime. And there will always be slime.
Thoughts?
Go Hoosiers!

those are terrible comparisons. what kind of assistance package do you want to see? free tuition, room and board, a training table with the best food, tutors to help with course work, and a college degree to give them a leg up? would that qualify?

 

[cryano]

those are terrible comparisons. what kind of assistance package do you want to see? free tuition, room and board, and a college degree to give them a leg up? would that qualify?

Everyone always leaves out the stipend the athletes get also in addition to the things you listed. They also receive an academic bonus on their stipend periodically.

I don’t know if this is for all sports or just basketball and football or even if the statements are equal between sports.

A friend of mine her son played for Washington state After he transferred from Wichita State and said the amount of money they pay the athletes is unreal. Witchita St It was OK, but getting into the Pac-10 with football money he was getting paid a lot by the University.

 

[ufo33]

Diamond stone

Sounds like a stripper "Stage Name"

 

[mushroomgod_1]

If you are hungry and someone offers you food you will eat.
If you need help and someone offers you help you will take it more times than not.
I understand the rules as well as the next guy and don't condone cheating. However, to expect some of these families to turn down life changing assistance because of NCAA rules is garbage. Not going to happen.
I'd like to see assistance packages for kids and their families above the table not under.
Hardship cases should have options that don't include slime. And there will always be slime.
Thoughts?
Go Hoosiers!

I think that would be in end of all college sports. With all the lawyers and the federal government out there, you're not going to be able to give male college basketball & football players $ that you don't also give to the women's rowing team........

Let's face it....the system is so corrupt that it cannot be fixed. Kids are being "educated" at schools like Duke & Michigan whose SAT scores fall hundreds of points below the average of their freshmen classes. The only way they can matriculate through such schools is through academic fraud of one sort or another. And we all know the same is true of IU or Purdue to a lesser degree.

I do think kids that have their stuff half-way together do get some benefit, even if they never play professionally, in the form of friendly contacts and exposure to team & campus environments. I would think in many cases that those indirect benefits probably are greater than any benefit they receive from their classes.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

All this begs the question: What is the "purpose" of even having college athletics, and does it fulfill that purpose?

 

[GregHaggard]

i believe it was the ncaa that handed down the one game suspension

Didn't Scott Skiles get arrested twice that same year, once for DUI, and once for marijuana possession, and not have to sit out any time?

 

[mobilehoosier]

those are terrible comparisons. what kind of assistance package do you want to see? free tuition, room and board, and a college degree to give them a leg up? would that qualify?

Hey Coach: I think my comparisons are real. Some of these kids are very vulnerable. So I don't have the answers. But i will offer this:
Current state is out of control. Shoe Companies have changed the landscape forever. They stay unless demand shrinks, which I don't see so give them a path to pony up legally. (Used to be big donors only now it's corporate money too.)
A public pool run by the school for hardship cases. (Define hardship how you want. No way everyone would agree. Help who you want. All above the table.) Not a perfect fix but it would allow everyone to operate in the open.

Shroom: I think college sports ended a long time ago i.e. when football/hoops games were scheduled for TV instead of saturday and one week game in hoops. Everyone is making millions except the kids. So many exceptions there are no rules.

 

[mobilehoosier]

All this begs the question: What is the "purpose" of even having college athletics, and does it fulfill that purpose?

Money, power, status, and keep alums happy so they keep the money, power, and status. Huge Grin!

 

[SeaNap]

I’ll go off on a limb and say that the general perception that programs are dirty is mostly paranoia or jealousy.

In my opinion I think what is more likely is that individual assistant coaches or boosters are unscrupulous or even that individual recruited players and their families are shady.

Of course there is always the one off Coach Rick Pitino who left a mess and now can’t get a job anywhere.

God forbid IU ever finds itself in similar situation but don’t be naïve and think that we are immune.

The head coaches and AD's are always involved and aware.

 

[ufo33]

Didn't Scott Skiles get arrested twice that same year, once for DUI, and once for marijuana possession, and not have to sit out any time?

Not at MSU!
Skiles was a leader!!
Controversial maybe but what an intense competitor! I loved to watch Skiles as a player. His trash talking against Georgetown in the NCAA Tournament was the stuff of legend, as he walked the walk after he talked the talk. He was a stud. Skiles had multiple 40 pt games his Senior year.

 

[ufo33]

Penny is a good name for payment.

 

[SeaNap]

Penny is a good name for payment.

No proof!

 

[ufo33]

No proof!

And there was no proof at Louisville until Bowen got paid, and then Pitino lied, and was fired.
There is never proof until someone actually gets caught.
Same as drug dealers, just because it is illegal doesn't mean every effort isn't being taken to prevent detection.
There is too much money to be made to prevent cheating.

 

[ufo33]

Hey Coach: I think my comparisons are real. Some of these kids are very vulnerable. So I don't have the answers. But i will offer this:
Current state is out of control. Shoe Companies have changed the landscape forever. They stay unless demand shrinks, which I don't see so give them a path to pony up legally. (Used to be big donors only now it's corporate money too.)
A public pool run by the school for hardship cases. (Define hardship how you want. No way everyone would agree. Help who you want. All above the table.) Not a perfect fix but it would allow everyone to operate in the open.

Shroom: I think college sports ended a long time ago i.e. when football/hoops games were scheduled for TV instead of saturday and one week game in hoops. Everyone is making millions except the kids. So many exceptions there are no rules.

Just watch the NBA and NFL where everyone gets paid legally.
College football and basketball are corrupt and broken.
Not as much fun to watch anymore.

 

[ufo33]

And there was no proof at Louisville until Bowen got paid, and then Pitino lied, and was fired.
There is never proof until someone actually gets caught.
Same as drug dealers, just because it is illegal doesn't mean every effort isn't being taken to prevent detection.

There are some professional cheaters out there. Untraceable Ca$h is king.

 

[ufo33]

Just watch the NBA and NFL where everyone gets paid legally.
College football and basketball are corrupt and broken.
It is not much fun to watch the same teams win every year in college football. College football might as well have 3 games a year worth watching. Nobody else matters. The other 30+ bowls are for money only the schools involved are interested. Having no D1 college football tournament is ridiculous. Every other level of football from HS to the NFL has a tournament.

 

[coachv jr]

Didn't Scott Skiles get arrested twice that same year, once for DUI, and once for marijuana possession, and not have to sit out any time?

never heard about it

 

[SeaNap]

And there was no proof at Louisville until Bowen got paid, and then Pitino lied, and was fired.
There is never proof until someone actually gets caught.
Same as drug dealers, just because it is illegal doesn't mean every effort isn't being taken to prevent detection.
There is too much money to be made to prevent cheating.

I was referring to Penny not Pitino we all know about him.
Lets stop the Penny assault since there is no evidence.

 

[GregHaggard]

Not at MSU!
Skiles was a leader!!
Controversial maybe but what an intense competitor! I loved to watch Skiles as a player. His trash talking against Georgetown in the NCAA Tournament was the stuff of legend, as he walked the walk after he talked the talk. He was a stud. Skiles had multiple 40 pt games his Senior year.

All that you've said is true.
And so, too, is what I said!

 

[coachv jr]

Everyone always leaves out the stipend the athletes get also in addition to the things you listed. They also receive an academic bonus on their stipend periodically.

I don’t know if this is for all sports or just basketball and football or even if the statements are equal between sports.

A friend of mine her son played for Washington state After he transferred from Wichita State and said the amount of money they pay the athletes is unreal. Witchita St It was OK, but getting into the Pac-10 with football money he was getting paid a lot by the University.

i struggled a great deal working about 20 hours a week to pay for my room and food. started washing dishes in a fraternity, line cook at the library cafeteria, more dish washing and waiting tables at howard johnson's, delivery and food prep at pagliai's restaurant. i ate where i worked. otherwise boxes of mac and cheese from no frills grocery, sometime adding some canned peas and tuna when i had the money. frozen fries and pork tenderloins "borrowed" from the library. fried baloney sandwiches. i'm pretty sure athletes on scholarship had, and still have, it better than i did. i don't feel the least bit sorry for them

 

[GregHaggard]

never heard about it

Here's a link to the story about the DUI.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1985-11-08-8503170290-story.html

This link is where he was reinstated, and talks a little about the Marijuana possession charge.

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1985/1...cott-Skiles-arrested-for-drunk/9663500619600/

 

[mushroomgod_1]

Just watch the NBA and NFL where everyone gets paid legally.
College football and basketball are corrupt and broken.
Not as much fun to watch anymore.

I'd rather go fishing than watch NBA games.

 

[hookyIU1990]

Skiles was arrested multiple times at MSU - pot, coke, DUI. He was no saint.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1986-03-16-sp-26686-story.html