So Rudy thinks today's NYTimes article demonstrates Trump is a

[Circlejoe]

genius. His argument is that Trump utilized legal deductions so his tax liabilities could be zero for 18 years or more. I don't think the strategy will sell. Three questions:

• If this makes Trump a genius, why doesn't the genius release his tax returns so we can all marvel at how smart he is?
• What will those undecided voters think when they look at their tax liabilities?
• How can Trump complain about the federal government not providing for veterans, our military, police and firefighters if he's unwilling to pay to support them?

BTW, Rudy has really gone bonkers! What does it say about Trump when his top advisors are all a little crazy?

 

[VanPastorMan]

genius. His argument is that Trump utilized legal deductions so his tax liabilities could be zero for 18 years or more. I don't think the strategy will sell. Three questions:

• If this makes Trump a genius, why doesn't the genius release his tax returns so we can all marvel at how smart he is?
• What will those undecided voters think when they look at their tax liabilities?
• How can Trump complain about the federal government not providing for veterans, our military, police and firefighters if he's unwilling to pay to support them?

BTW, Rudy has really gone bonkers! What does it say about Trump when his top advisors are all a little crazy?

If you could do it legally wouldn't you zero out your taxes? Who wants to pay more taxes than they are supposed to? Like Trump said in the debate, "if you don't like the law then change it".

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

If you could do it legally wouldn't you zero out your taxes? Who wants to pay more taxes than they are supposed to? Like Trump said in the debate, "if you don't like the law then change it".

I think the real story here is that some people - like you, for example - who are defending Trump for legally taking advantage of the tax code have previously accused poor people who do the same of being welfare queens and lazy moochers.

 

[zeke4ahs]

And one of the reasons he said he didn't pay taxes is that the US would squander if. Looking at Trump's gold plated monstrosity of a home, I'd say he does a pretty good job squandering his own money himself. But what is such a fabulous business man that is going to cure all of our country's economic issues doing losing 916 million dollars in the first place? He's a mess and his spokespeople are as bad or worse than he is.

 

[meridian]

If you could do it legally wouldn't you zero out your taxes? Who wants to pay more taxes than they are supposed to? Like Trump said in the debate, "if you don't like the law then change it".

What makes you think he did legally? I suppose you could say he cheated legally. Assuming that he did not pay taxes for 18 years, is it possible not to pay taxes for 18 years, especially for a guy who claims to be a patriot?

 

[zeke4ahs]

I'm also interested in where these came from. Allegedly from Trump Tower... someone trying to sabotage from within? Maybe the Donald himself, since he truly doesn't want this job.

 

[Circlejoe]

If you could do it legally wouldn't you zero out your taxes? Who wants to pay more taxes than they are supposed to? Like Trump said in the debate, "if you don't like the law then change it".

You didn't answer my questions. Not surprised. I assume you are one of those trump supporters who would watch him shoot a person in Times Square and still vote for him.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

You didn't answer my questions. Not surprised. I assume you are one of those trump supporters who would watch him shoot a person in Times Square and still vote for him.

No, Van is one of the good Christians who doesn't mind that Trump is an adulterer, has been married three times and divorced twice, or that Trump has illegally used his charity to pay legal settlements, bribe public officials, and buy paintings of himself. Van doesn't mind that Trump is endorsed by the KKK or that Trump mocks disabled people. Van's likely rational is "we all make mistakes" or "no one is perfect"...take your pick.

Van, the good preacher man, doesn't mind these things about Trump because Hillary.

 

[meridian]

No, Van is one of the good Christians who doesn't mind that Trump is an adulterer, has been married three times and divorced twice, or that Trump has illegally used his charity to pay legal settlements, bribe public officials, and buy paintings of himself. Van doesn't mind that Trump is endorsed by the KKK or that Trump mocks disabled people. Van's likely rational is "we all make mistakes" or "no one is perfect"...take your pick.

Van, the good preacher man, doesn't mind these things about Trump because Hillary.

However, he would support anybody who hates Hilary, Liberal, and/or Democrats, regardless of his/her (dis)qualifications.

 

[stollcpa]

genius. His argument is that Trump utilized legal deductions so his tax liabilities could be zero for 18 years or more. I don't think the strategy will sell. Three questions:

• If this makes Trump a genius, why doesn't the genius release his tax returns so we can all marvel at how smart he is?
• What will those undecided voters think when they look at their tax liabilities?
• How can Trump complain about the federal government not providing for veterans, our military, police and firefighters if he's unwilling to pay to support them?

BTW, Rudy has really gone bonkers! What does it say about Trump when his top advisors are all a little crazy?

I have a question. If Trump lost his ass during the real estate meltdown what's the problem with carrying his losses forward to reduce future year taxes? There's no fancy tax planning involved.

 

[Circlejoe]

I have a question. If Trump lost his ass during the real estate meltdown what's the problem with carrying his losses forward to reduce future year taxes? There's no fancy tax planning involved.

There must be a problem if you refuse to answer the questions. I never said what Trump has done is illegal. But he's certainly changing his story.

 

[meridian]

I have a question. If Trump lost his ass during the real estate meltdown what's the problem with carrying his losses forward to reduce future year taxes? There's no fancy tax planning involved.

If that's the case, you are right. However, he has been bragging loudly what a great financial and business genius he is. So, there is that. Furthermore, why doesn't he say it? By not saying it, it appears that he is hiding something. Why? He could've just said "I lost $1 trillion during the meltdown, and I am carrying the loss throughout the last 18 years. Some may argue that Trump is not a business genius as he claims, but nobody can say that he is a tax cheating criminal.

 

[UncleMark]

This shit makes my head hurt. He claims to be a business genius, and as evidence points to zeroing out has taxes as a result of a $916 million business loss.

Did he murder his parents and seek pity for being an orphan?

 

[surjay]

If you could do it legally wouldn't you zero out your taxes? Who wants to pay more taxes than they are supposed to? Like Trump said in the debate, "if you don't like the law then change it".

I wouldn't. I prefer to pay taxes and contribute to society.

 

[HillzHoozier]

I wouldn't. I prefer to pay taxes and contribute to society.

Your plan amounts to poor stewardship.

 

[cosmickid]

I have a question. If Trump lost his ass during the real estate meltdown what's the problem with carrying his losses forward to reduce future year taxes? There's no fancy tax planning involved.

The surrogates were all over the "he created thousands of jobs" meme today,and contrasting that with HRC making money for herself.But if Trump lost nearly a billion dollars in a single year because many of those businesses folded,I'm pretty sure that a lot of "little people" got lost in the flood and lost their jobs as a result of Trump's "great fortune".

Then of course there is the small matter of Trump's 2012 tweet,in which he lambasted BO for "only" paying 20.5% tax on a $790,000 income.In fact Trump has tweeted often about people "not paying their fair share",while we have a massive Natl Debt and while our infrastructure is desperately in need of renovation.Who knew when he whined about the 50% "not paying their fair share" he was describing himself?

Does Trump think he tweets in invisible ink?

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I have a question. If Trump lost his ass during the real estate meltdown what's the problem with carrying his losses forward to reduce future year taxes? There's no fancy tax planning involved.

There's nothing wrong with what Trump did. What's disgusting about all this is the response from his supporters. The people who think Trump was a genius are the same people who cheered on Rick Santelli when he demanded that the "losers" with bad mortgages get foreclosed on, so that people who would actually contribute to society could snatch up their homes.

This story is all about the absolutely horrid and hypocritical immorality of Trump supporters. It's sickening.

 

[Circlejoe]

I have a question. If Trump lost his ass during the real estate meltdown what's the problem with carrying his losses forward to reduce future year taxes? There's no fancy tax planning involved.

Not sure about the real estate meltdown. This loss was from his business of casinos, hotels and airlines...all massive failures. Other business people in the 90s were HUGE successes.

Interesting analysis from a financial expert who is no fan of Clinton.

 

[zeke4ahs]

If you could do it legally wouldn't you zero out your taxes? Who wants to pay more taxes than they are supposed to? Like Trump said in the debate, "if you don't like the law then change it".

Is zero more taxes than you are supposed to pay? This is rich, coming from the same people that hate freeloaders and welfare queens and those that mooch off the government. Once again, the excuses people will make for the worst candidate in history are unbelievable.

 

[stollcpa]

There's nothing wrong with what Trump did. What's disgusting about all this is the response from his supporters. The people who think Trump was a genius are the same people who cheered on Rick Santelli when he demanded that the "losers" with bad mortgages get foreclosed on, so that people who would actually contribute to society could snatch up their homes.

This story is all about the absolutely horrid and hypocritical immorality of Trump supporters. It's sickening.

I have no idea about the hypocritical immorality your talking about. All I commented on is there's nothing wrong if a taxpayer has a Net Operating Loss to carry it forward. WTH, if you lost $915 million, what's wrong with a tax deduction in the future? Even after the tax savings you lose over $450 million.

 

[stollcpa]

Not sure about the real estate meltdown. This loss was from his business of casinos, hotels and airlines...all massive failures. Other business people in the 90s were HUGE successes.

Interesting analysis from a financial expert who is no fan of Clinton.

I didn't really look into where the losses came from. A loss is a loss. You're entitled to carry forward losses. Why shouldn't you be entitled to the benefits of the losses?

 

[IUBBALLAWOL]

I think the real story here is that some people - like you, for example - who are defending Trump for legally taking advantage of the tax code have previously accused poor people who do the same of being welfare queens and lazy moochers.

What matters is if the poor person has a job or is just lazy because the dems are willing to pay them to stay home. HRC likes welfare. It is taxpayer money buying votes for her.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I have no idea about the hypocritical immorality your talking about. All I commented on is there's nothing wrong if a taxpayer has a Net Operating Loss to carry it forward. WTH, if you lost $915 million, what's wrong with a tax deduction in the future? Even after the tax savings you lose over $450 million.

And I'm saying that's not the story. The story is that the people cheering his legal use of the tax code are the same people who accuse poor people who don't pay taxes of being lazy moochers.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

What matters is if the poor person has a job or is just lazy because the dems are willing to pay them to stay home. HRC likes welfare. It is taxpayer money buying votes for her.

Just stop it, already.

 

[stollcpa]

This shit makes my head hurt. He claims to be a business genius, and as evidence points to zeroing out has taxes as a result of a $916 million business loss.

Did he murder his parents and seek pity for being an orphan?

No question, it doesn't take a business genious to pay zero taxes based on a $915 NOL.

 

[stollcpa]

And I'm saying that's not the story. The story is that the people cheering his legal use of the tax code are the same people who accuse poor people who don't pay taxes of being lazy moochers.

He isn't using any fancy tax code loopholes. He lost a freaking $915 million. And before you say it, he shouldn't be proud of a $915 million loss. Even after the loss he's out over $450 million. What's the outrage about some fancy tax planning? I don't get it.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

He isn't using any fancy tax code loopholes. He lost a freaking $915 million. And before you say it, he shouldn't be proud of a $915 million loss. Even after the loss he's out over $450 million. What's the outrage about some fancy tax planning? I don't get it.

There is no outrage about fancy tax planning. This is about people who defend Trump on the one hand while calling poor people lazy moochers on the other. There is nothing wrong with what Trump did. There is only something wrong with the people who are cheering it while they look down their noses at people who need the EIC to feed their kids.

 

[cosmickid]

He isn't using any fancy tax code loopholes. He lost a freaking $915 million. And before you say it, he shouldn't be proud of a $915 million loss. Even after the loss he's out over $450 million. What's the outrage about some fancy tax planning? I don't get it.

From a July article,BEFORE we knew he didn't pay any taxes in 1995...

"When the dust finally cleared from the wreckage, in 2005, those who had backed Trump found they’d lost about 90 cents on the dollar. That was when the creditors — again — had to step in and take charge, and force the company through a Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

Trump Hotels & Casino Resorts lost money every single year that Trump ran it as a public company. Net losses of $13 million in 1995 ballooned to $134 million by 1999, and $191 million in 2004. Not even his chosen accounting firm, Arthur Andersen (of Enron fame), could have hidden all the red ink. In total, from 1995 through 2004, the company booked total losses of $647 million.

Trump had complete control — both as the chairman and as the owner of a special class of stock that carried many more votes than those he sold to the public. He even gave the company his initials, DJT, as its stock ticker symbol.

Its debts mounted, the stock collapsed — and in the end, the creditors had had enough. The courts stepped in, the company had to go through a Chapter 11 bankruptcy reorganization, and The Donald ended up with a largely ceremonial role — sort of like the guy in the costume welcoming you to Caesar’s Palace. By April 2004, someone who had invested a notional $100 in the IPO was left with about $10.

And it wasn’t like you could blame wider troubles in the industry, the economy or the stock market. Over the same period, investors in competitor Harrah’s Entertainment more than doubled their money. Investors in luxury hotel, casino and resort companies like Starwood and MGM earned returns of more than 400%. Even the plain old stock market index more than doubled."

Trump no stock market whiz

 

[stollcpa]

There is no outrage about fancy tax planning. This is about people who defend Trump on the one hand while calling poor people lazy moochers on the other. There is nothing wrong with what Trump did. There is only something wrong with the people who are cheering it while they look down their noses at people who need the EIC to feed their kids.

I am not cheering the deduction and I am not looking down my nose at low income earners who use EIC.

I have seen in my practice times where getting the EIC refund has caused clients to manage their wages late in the year to maximize their EIC. That's a little depressing.

 

[stollcpa]

From a July article,BEFORE we knew he didn't pay any taxes in 1995...

"When the dust finally cleared from the wreckage, in 2005, those who had backed Trump found they’d lost about 90 cents on the dollar. That was when the creditors — again — had to step in and take charge, and force the company through a Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

Trump Hotels & Casino Resorts lost money every single year that Trump ran it as a public company. Net losses of $13 million in 1995 ballooned to $134 million by 1999, and $191 million in 2004. Not even his chosen accounting firm, Arthur Andersen (of Enron fame), could have hidden all the red ink. In total, from 1995 through 2004, the company booked total losses of $647 million.

Trump had complete control — both as the chairman and as the owner of a special class of stock that carried many more votes than those he sold to the public. He even gave the company his initials, DJT, as its stock ticker symbol.

Its debts mounted, the stock collapsed — and in the end, the creditors had had enough. The courts stepped in, the company had to go through a Chapter 11 bankruptcy reorganization, and The Donald ended up with a largely ceremonial role — sort of like the guy in the costume welcoming you to Caesar’s Palace. By April 2004, someone who had invested a notional $100 in the IPO was left with about $10.

And it wasn’t like you could blame wider troubles in the industry, the economy or the stock market. Over the same period, investors in competitor Harrah’s Entertainment more than doubled their money. Investors in luxury hotel, casino and resort companies like Starwood and MGM earned returns of more than 400%. Even the plain old stock market index more than doubled."

Trump no stock market whiz

I was talking about the NOL. It's a legal and no fancy loophole. I am not defending how the losses were generated.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I am not cheering the deduction and I am not looking down my nose at low income earners who use EIC.

I have seen in my practice times where getting the EIC refund has caused clients to manage their wages late in the year to maximize their EIC. That's a little depressing.

Depressing? For using a legal mechanism to maximize their return?

Methinks you are part of the problem.

 

[stollcpa]

From a July article,BEFORE we knew he didn't pay any taxes in 1995...

"When the dust finally cleared from the wreckage, in 2005, those who had backed Trump found they’d lost about 90 cents on the dollar. That was when the creditors — again — had to step in and take charge, and force the company through a Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

Trump Hotels & Casino Resorts lost money every single year that Trump ran it as a public company. Net losses of $13 million in 1995 ballooned to $134 million by 1999, and $191 million in 2004. Not even his chosen accounting firm, Arthur Andersen (of Enron fame), could have hidden all the red ink. In total, from 1995 through 2004, the company booked total losses of $647 million.

Trump had complete control — both as the chairman and as the owner of a special class of stock that carried many more votes than those he sold to the public. He even gave the company his initials, DJT, as its stock ticker symbol.

Its debts mounted, the stock collapsed — and in the end, the creditors had had enough. The courts stepped in, the company had to go through a Chapter 11 bankruptcy reorganization, and The Donald ended up with a largely ceremonial role — sort of like the guy in the costume welcoming you to Caesar’s Palace. By April 2004, someone who had invested a notional $100 in the IPO was left with about $10.

And it wasn’t like you could blame wider troubles in the industry, the economy or the stock market. Over the same period, investors in competitor Harrah’s Entertainment more than doubled their money. Investors in luxury hotel, casino and resort companies like Starwood and MGM earned returns of more than 400%. Even the plain old stock market index more than doubled."

Trump no stock market whiz

BTW if any losses were generated from debt forgiven in bankruptcy the losses generated through that debt is lost as a tax benefit.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

BTW if any losses were generated from debt forgiven in bankruptcy the losses generated through that debt is lost as a tax benefit.

Yeah, but the chapter 11 was for the corporate entity. Would that necessarily affect his personal returns?

 

[stollcpa]

Depressing? For using a legal mechanism to maximize their return?

Methinks you are part of the problem.

It's depressing to stop working for a period of time to get a larger EIC?

For two years the EIC was totally screwed up after they changed the definition of a dependent or qualifying child. I discovered a great loophole. Example-Amish family or any family for that matter with 6 children, all still at home with the 2 older children working. I had mom and dad claim 2 kids and they got a large EIC. I took the 2 older children with wages and they each used 1 of the 2 remaining children as a qualifying child and they each received EIC also. All totaled larger families with multiple children abd children working could get $10,000 to $15,000 or more in EIC refunds. After 2 years congress figured out their screw up and changed the definition of a qualifying child.

I help the poor and rich save taxes. LOL.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

It's depressing to stop working for a period of time to get a larger EIC?

For two years the EIC was totally screwed up after they changed the definition of a dependent or qualifying child. I discovered a great loophole. Example-Amish family or any family for that matter with 6 children, all still at home with the 2 older children working. I had mom and dad claim 2 kids and they got a large EIC. I took the 2 older children with wages and they each used 1 of the 2 remaining children as a qualifying child and they each received EIC also. All totaled larger families with multiple children abd children working could get $10,000 to $15,000 or more in EIC refunds. After 2 years congress figured out their screw up and changed the definition of a qualifying child.

I help the poor and rich save taxes. LOL.

So, what you did was legal, right?

I used to do this every year. I'm sure every bar and restaurant manager did it. Throughout December, I would gradually lose inventory. If there was an expensive wine I wanted in stock for New Year's, I'd have my rep deliver 2 or 3 bottles, instead of buying a case. I'd try to have shelves as empty as possible at the end of the year. I wouldn't let any employee touch the inventory for a month. I micromanaged that shit. On 1/1, I'd do our end of year inventory, then I'd order a ton of product. Saved hundreds if not thousands of dollars every year in taxes.

The tax system we have is the system we have. There are many ways it could be improved. But we certainly shouldn't be attacking people for using the system as it is to legally minimize their tax bill. Again, the real story about this Trump tax thing is that the same people defending him are the same people who complain when a poor family takes a credit. This isn't about Trump. It's about the disgusting hypocrisy of his supporters.

 

[stollcpa]

Yeah, but the chapter 11 was for the corporate entity. Would that necessarily affect his personal returns?

No it wouldn't but whatever losses Trump was using on his personal return had to be coming from LLC or S Corps. On the S Corps he would have had to put real money into the Corps to take the losses. On LLCs he could take losses based on LLC debt but if the LLC filed bankruptcy and debt was forgiven he would have lost the losses. For instance LLC borrows $1 million and has $1 million loss for year. Let's say Trump only LLC member. He would get that loss on personal return. If later that debt was forgiven in bankruptcy that loss benefit would go away. If it had already been used to offset other income on his personal return, the $1 million would be income on his return.

If the entities your talking about were regular C Corps Trump wouldn't have been getting any Corp losses on his personal return.

I may not be explaining well enough. If so, I apologize.

 

[stollcpa]

So, what you did was legal, right?

I used to do this every year. I'm sure every bar and restaurant manager did it. Throughout December, I would gradually lose inventory. If there was an expensive wine I wanted in stock for New Year's, I'd have my rep deliver 2 or 3 bottles, instead of buying a case. I'd try to have shelves as empty as possible at the end of the year. I wouldn't let any employee touch the inventory for a month. I micromanaged that shit. On 1/1, I'd do our end of year inventory, then I'd order a ton of product. Saved hundreds if not thousands of dollars every year in taxes.

The tax system we have is the system we have. There are many ways it could be improved. But we certainly shouldn't be attacking people for using the system as it is to legally minimize their tax bill. Again, the real story about this Trump tax thing is that the same people defending him are the same people who complain when a poor family takes a credit. This isn't about Trump. It's about the disgusting hypocrisy of his supporters.

Absolutely it's legal and I am not defending Trump and putting down the poor.

 

[UncleMark]

There is no outrage about fancy tax planning. This is about people who defend Trump on the one hand while calling poor people lazy moochers on the other. There is nothing wrong with what Trump did. There is only something wrong with the people who are cheering it while they look down their noses at people who need the EIC to feed their kids.

Joe Voter will have a hard time understanding how someone can lose $916 million, not pay any taxes as a result, and still live like King Midas. That's where the difference is between the haves and the have nots -- the former have a down year, the latter lose their homes.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Joe Voter will have a hard time understanding how someone can lose $916 million, not pay any taxes as a result, and still live like King Midas. That's where the difference is between the haves and the have nots -- the former have a down year, the latter lose their homes.

This is true. It wasn't the point I was trying to make with stoll, but it is true. The fact that we live in a society where a $916M loss means I can keep my private jet, while a $60K default means I'm homeless, is pretty godsdamn depressing.

 

[farfan]

genius. His argument is that Trump utilized legal deductions so his tax liabilities could be zero for 18 years or more. I don't think the strategy will sell. Three questions:

• If this makes Trump a genius, why doesn't the genius release his tax returns so we can all marvel at how smart he is?
• What will those undecided voters think when they look at their tax liabilities?
• How can Trump complain about the federal government not providing for veterans, our military, police and firefighters if he's unwilling to pay to support them?

BTW, Rudy has really gone bonkers! What does it say about Trump when his top advisors are all a little crazy?

So, if somebody makes a hard earned $60K a year and pays a few $K in taxes are they an idiot? There is a large group of voters who apparently don't recognize when they're being insulted.