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RIP Ivana

VanPastorMan said:
What if she was given the option to have the baby and give it up? Would you be ok with that? Who took her to Indiana and why did she have to go there? The Ohio law would have allowed her to get an abortion in Ohio. My issue is believing that an abortion necessarily has to be the best avenue for her healing. I absolutely do not believe this to be so. The issue with this girl who is 10 for crying out loud is that she was repeatedly raped.
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Would you be ok with that? Almost no 10 year old is physically able to carry a baby to term. Picture a 4th grader, likely still with baby teeth, still likely playing with dolls and watching Sesame Street, and maybe 4 feet tall. Geesh-o-Pete, how often does this need to be said?...

Who took her to Indiana? presumably her mother, at the advice of her doctor in Ohio

Why did she have to go there? The doctor in Ohio (or the head of his or her hospital or medical group) apparently thought that it would be either illegal or an unacceptable legal risk for him or her to perform a medically necessary abortion in Ohio, because of the Ohio law

Does any of this sink in? None of it is new info or is being discussed in my post for the first time...
 
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VanPastorMan said:
What if she was given the option to have the baby and give it up?
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She can't even see a PG-13 movie. What kind of decision is that for a 10 year old? And if her parents made her carry to term they should be charged with child neglect.

The only baby any 10 year should give up is a doll.
 
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VPM,

Pick one of these kids who you think is ready to be a Mom, or even a Dad for that matter.

(pic from a random Google Image Search for 10 year olds on a school field trip)

It's ludicrous.

Any doctor who would dare advise a 10 year old to carry a baby to term should lose his/her license immediately, and forever.

15714402371_c68f7ec559_b.jpg
 
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People are waiting to have kids until older and older, it’s part of the reason our birth rate is dropping below replacement rate which is not good. We need bodies.

We need more young parents and this could have been one.
 
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GuyDatHoo said:
People are waiting to have kids until older and older, it’s part of the reason our birth rate is dropping below replacement rate which is not good. We need bodies.

We need more young parents and this could have been one.
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A 10 year old???
 
VanPastorMan said:
What if she was given the option to have the baby and give it up? Would you be ok with that? Who took her to Indiana and why did she have to go there? The Ohio law would have allowed her to get an abortion in Ohio. My issue is believing that an abortion necessarily has to be the best avenue for her healing. I absolutely do not believe this to be so. The issue with this girl who is 10 for crying out loud is that she was repeatedly raped.
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Why wouldn't I okay with a female making a decision to have a child that she made feely and willingly on her own?

The reason she came to Indiana for a abortion is well documented and has gone over time and time again, you just choose to ignore reality with the Ohio law.

It's sad that you want a 10 year old girl to carry a pregnancy from rape that she doesn't want to carry to term, that has no doubt caused her severe trauma, all because you think that baby that will remind her of the awful things that were done to her will somehow help her heal.

That's disgusting.
 
Baller23Boogie said:
Why wouldn't I okay with a female making a decision to have a child that she made feely and willingly on her own?

The reason she came to Indiana for a abortion is well documented and has gone over time and time again, you just choose to ignore reality with the Ohio law.

It's sad that you want a 10 year old girl to carry a pregnancy from rape that she doesn't want to carry to term, that has no doubt caused her severe trauma, all because you think that baby that will remind her of the awful things that were done to her will somehow help her heal.

That's disgusting.
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Dude flat out has issues. Sad he is allowed around his flock.
 
UncleMark said:
What is frightening is the prospect of how he might counsel members of his flock if they found themselves in the Ohio girl's situation.
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Well per Guydat above, 10 year olds are part of the solution to decelerating population growth. Cause you know Mark, we need younger parents.
 
BCCHoosier said:
Well per Guydat above, 10 year olds are part of the solution to decelerating population growth. Cause you know Mark, we need younger parents.
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Of course.

BTW, HooDat was yanking chains. He's pretty good at it. You may also see references to Farva around here occasionally. Same guy. He's not really one of the crazies.
 
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Baller23Boogie said:
Why wouldn't I okay with a female making a decision to have a child that she made feely and willingly on her own?

The reason she came to Indiana for a abortion is well documented and has gone over time and time again, you just choose to ignore reality with the Ohio law.

It's sad that you want a 10 year old girl to carry a pregnancy from rape that she doesn't want to carry to term, that has no doubt caused her severe trauma, all because you think that baby that will remind her of the awful things that were done to her will somehow help her heal.

That's disgusting.
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I wrote this in another thread.

I believe abortion should never be done unless the physical life of the mother is a serious question. I would say that with modern technology they can take the baby at around 20 wks which is 5 months. So the mother doesn't have to carry the child full term. In cases of incest and rape, though tragic is punishing the wrong person. If an adult in the family rapes a child then they should have the full force of the law against them. Also if a person is raped by a non family member then the penalty should be very severe. Yet people want the babies to pay with their lives. What did they do wrong? The Evangelist James Robison was a product of rape. His mother was raped on a date and decided when she was pregnant to go ahead and have the baby. Well James has children and grandchildren. If she had aborted him then look at how many generations of people would not exist? James didn't do anything to deserve death so why kill him? If we are gonna kill somebody then kill the rapist.
 
hoosboot said:
Glad to see you stay engaged on this rather than just post something and not respond to the replies you get.

Here's the thing for me. I'm perfectly willing to agree that the kind of outcome that Robison's mother had is a potential outcome, but I'm also perfectly willing to agree that the kind of outcome that Baller suggests is one as well. I have no possible way to really understand the trauma the victim might have, the specifics of their personality, or the way they might react physically, mentally, and spiritually to completing the term of the pregnancy. I'm much more comfortable with the girl and her parents making the decision in consultation with their doctors and anyone else they choose to include in that conversation than I am with the government doing so.

And I don't think it was you that asked, but I don't support capital punishment.
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We should not accept capital punishment for an innocent baby either. My argument is all about the 10 yr old girl. She is the victim from this heinous monster. The question is what will bring her the most healing. I am not convinced that abortion would do it. What if she had the baby and knew he or she was given to a family? The knowledge that out of this violence perpetrated on her could have an outcome where a child can be loved. Now again like I said before. This whole situation stinks. It is rotten. I would argue the most sorrow has been done by the rape. Just think of it. She is 10 yrs old. Yet I think she can rationally decide to give the baby a chance at life. My view is this will bring healing to her. I support capital punishment for murder. I would not advocate the death penalty for this rapist. But if the baby is gonna die then I don't feel as bad if he is put to death.
 
VanPastorMan said:
We should not accept capital punishment for an innocent baby either. My argument is all about the 10 yr old girl. She is the victim from this heinous monster. The question is what will bring her the most healing. I am not convinced that abortion would do it. What if she had the baby and knew he or she was given to a family? The knowledge that out of this violence perpetrated on her could have an outcome where a child can be loved. Now again like I said before. This whole situation stinks. It is rotten. I would argue the most sorrow has been done by the rape. Just think of it. She is 10 yrs old. Yet I think she can rationally decide to give the baby a chance at life. My view is this will bring healing to her. I support capital punishment for murder. I would not advocate the death penalty for this rapist. But if the baby is gonna die then I don't feel as bad if he is put to death.
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Jesus H Christ
 
VanPastorMan said:
We should not accept capital punishment for an innocent baby either. My argument is all about the 10 yr old girl. She is the victim from this heinous monster. The question is what will bring her the most healing. I am not convinced that abortion would do it. What if she had the baby and knew he or she was given to a family? The knowledge that out of this violence perpetrated on her could have an outcome where a child can be loved. Now again like I said before. This whole situation stinks. It is rotten. I would argue the most sorrow has been done by the rape. Just think of it. She is 10 yrs old. Yet I think she can rationally decide to give the baby a chance at life. My view is this will bring healing to her. I support capital punishment for murder. I would not advocate the death penalty for this rapist. But if the baby is gonna die then I don't feel as bad if he is put to death.
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When will you start to understand that it doesn't matter what you "think" and believe " would bring healing to a 10 year old rape victim but what the actual rape victim wants done in her given situation is best for her. She should have that the right to control that situation.

If you think otherwise, you are a sick individual.
 
BCCHoosier said:
Well per Guydat above, 10 year olds are part of the solution to decelerating population growth. Cause you know Mark, we need younger parents.
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I’m thinking he’s being a little tongue in cheek here.
 
VanPastorMan said:
I wrote this in another thread.

I believe abortion should never be done unless the physical life of the mother is a serious question. I would say that with modern technology they can take the baby at around 20 wks which is 5 months. So the mother doesn't have to carry the child full term. In cases of incest and rape, though tragic is punishing the wrong person. If an adult in the family rapes a child then they should have the full force of the law against them. Also if a person is raped by a non family member then the penalty should be very severe. Yet people want the babies to pay with their lives. What did they do wrong? The Evangelist James Robison was a product of rape. His mother was raped on a date and decided when she was pregnant to go ahead and have the baby. Well James has children and grandchildren. If she had aborted him then look at how many generations of people would not exist? James didn't do anything to deserve death so why kill him? If we are gonna kill somebody then kill the rapist.
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You’ve told this story multiple times. The key phrase is SHE DECIDED!
 
VanPastorMan said:
We should not accept capital punishment for an innocent baby either. My argument is all about the 10 yr old girl. She is the victim from this heinous monster. The question is what will bring her the most healing. I am not convinced that abortion would do it. What if she had the baby and knew he or she was given to a family? The knowledge that out of this violence perpetrated on her could have an outcome where a child can be loved. Now again like I said before. This whole situation stinks. It is rotten. I would argue the most sorrow has been done by the rape. Just think of it. She is 10 yrs old. Yet I think she can rationally decide to give the baby a chance at life. My view is this will bring healing to her. I support capital punishment for murder. I would not advocate the death penalty for this rapist. But if the baby is gonna die then I don't feel as bad if he is put to death.
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Do you have any idea how dangerous it is for a 10 year old to give birth?
 
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RBB89 said:
Do you have any idea how dangerous it is for a 10 year old to give birth?
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Technically, science and biology positioned her with the ability to get pregnant. Simple evolution says this, no matter how freaking sick in todays world, isn't the first time it's happened. If I recall, 12-14 yr old for a female was a normal age to marry in the Appalachians less than 100 yrs ago.
Now obviously you are wanting to join the circle jerk around Van, but take this out of watercooler hippy terms and put it in terms of Human evolution over EONS. (I know you wont).

I'll say again you all are (willfully) not understanding what Van is actually saying. He isn't making a decision one way or the other. He is providing an option/ possibility of, the LONG TERM healing POSSIBILITIES. IT's not like he said, so mote it be!
 
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VanPastorMan said:
We should not accept capital punishment for an innocent baby either. My argument is all about the 10 yr old girl. She is the victim from this heinous monster. The question is what will bring her the most healing. I am not convinced that abortion would do it. What if she had the baby and knew he or she was given to a family? The knowledge that out of this violence perpetrated on her could have an outcome where a child can be loved. Now again like I said before. This whole situation stinks. It is rotten. I would argue the most sorrow has been done by the rape. Just think of it. She is 10 yrs old. Yet I think she can rationally decide to give the baby a chance at life. My view is this will bring healing to her. I support capital punishment for murder. I would not advocate the death penalty for this rapist. But if the baby is gonna die then I don't feel as bad if he is put to death.
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You and I differ about the definition of "a baby", so I don't see capital punishment for an innocent baby here.

That said, I have no problem agreeing that there is a chance that a positive outcome could possibly come from bringing a baby to term. For some reason, you seem to have a problem agreeing that a further negative outcome could possibly come from bringing a baby to term. While I'm comfortable leaving the decision with how to address that to the girl, her parents, their doctor, and other people they wish to consult with, you want the decision to rest with the government but only if the government agrees with how you see it.

Can you agree with all that?
 
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BCCHoosier said:
I was working multitasking and obviously didn't pick up on that. My apologies to Guydat.
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If you took offense to Farva, it probably wasn't your fault. He's a clever youngster, but he's had fifteen different usernames since he was old enough to drink in a bar, and it's not because he keeps forgetting his password.
 
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I would be stunned if the odds of a 10 year old surviving pregnancy and childbirth were not incredibly low. So it is in essence actually ordering the sacrificing of an existing life for a potential life. Just batshit crazy.
 
Joe_Hoopsier said:
This is once again where you get totally myopic. He offered an option, NOT an opinion. Will you offer your opinion on what this little girl may go through in 20 yrs when she realizes that she killed her baby and thinking of what they could be shareing together at that time, had it been alive? What emotional crap will she go through at that point? Not being able to look into her childs eyes, share it's thoughts.
OH you worry about 9 months of pregnancy,which is important of course. But what about making a FATAL decision that last the entire rest of her life?
Again, I am glad I don't have to help make this decision. But your Holy knowledge based on you having a cooter and uncontrollable emotions, are not overpowering qualifiers here. There are always multiple options. Sometimes, they are all painful and terrible.
I pray that this little girl can somehow find peace and a path in life. She is starting off well behind the curve of normality because of an illegal invitee from a shit hole life the he brought upon us. Thanks Brandon!
Van being the message of good, had the intent of, "if every options sucks, which one sucks the least?"

You still turn me on though.
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Healthcare decisions should be made between a doctor and a patient, and they should remain privileged and confidential.
 
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outside shooter said:
I would lock him in a room with you, Lucy01, DANC, and Mas-sa-suta. For him that's suffering a fate worse than death. Then he might just kill himself to get it over with.
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Torbin.Bequette said:
Healthcare decisions should be made between a doctor and a patient, and they should remain privileged and confidential.
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Trendy, but insipid

10 year-olds are not equipped to make decisions as a 'patient'.
 
Mas-sa-suta said:
Trendy, but insipid

10 year-olds are not equipped to make decisions as a 'patient'.
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Then, they can seek counsel from people of their choosing, not the state’s choosing.

There is no room for the government in my healthcare decisions, and I respect others’ rights to enjoy the same freedom.
 
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