No Comment - Your Kids are Dumb and You Probably Won’t Finish This And There’s a Twist

[BradStevens]

Did I not say that we should pursue expansion of opportunity? I did, more than once.

But I’d argue that a whole lot of public policy is less about expanding opportunities than it is insulating people from the consequences of their own choices, behaviors, etc, pointing the finger at society, and spreading the burdens of those consequences to society.

I can’t say it any better than Benny Franklin did several centuries ago.

I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it.​

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In my youth I travelled much, and I observed in different countries, that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.​

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There is no country in the world where so many provisions are established for them; so many hospitals to receive them when they are sick or lame, founded and maintained by voluntary charities; so many alms-houses for the aged of both sexes, together with a solemn general law made by the rich to subject their estates to a heavy tax for the support of the poor.​

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Under all these obligations, are our poor modest, humble, and thankful; and do they use their best endeavors to maintain themselves, and lighten our shoulders of this burthen? On the contrary, I affirm that there is no country in the world in which the poor are more idle, dissolute, drunken, and insolent.​

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The day you passed that act, you took away from before their eyes the greatest of all inducements to industry, frugality, and sobriety, by giving them a dependence on somewhat else than a careful accumulation during youth and health, for support in age or sickness.​

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In short, you offered a premium for the encouragement of idleness, and you should not now wonder that it has had its effect in the increase of poverty. Repeal that law, and you will soon see a change in their manners.​

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Can anybody argue with a straight face that he was wrong? Would you?

To the extent that children bear the brunt of the tough love policy, absolutely I would argue he was wrong. That's the conundrum. It might very well be that the only way we can help children born into poverty have better opportunities is to provide financial assistance to their parents.

A question: do you believe poverty can be fully eradicated if everyone just "made the right choices?" I'm not so sure.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

So your argument is that regardless of upbringing/socio-economic status, etc, each child has the equal ability to change his or her course to be of equal standing as to the young Donald Trump or George Bush or Rockefeller? Or even just an upper middle class kid? That couldn't possibly be true.

The "done picking cotton stuff" is obviously a metaphor, but of course it doesn't help when the president talks about "black jobs". What's a black job?

No, that’s not my argument. My argument is that no matter where you begin, you have the ability to become better.

 

[mcmurtry66]

No, that’s not my argument. My argument is that no matter where you begin, you have the ability to become better.

Where you begin significantly impacts the odds of where you end

 

[Mark Milton]

Love that song and music video!

After hearing that song, I'm going to make a playlist of these 80s superstars:

The Tubes
J Geils Band
Loverboy
80s Def Leppard
80s Styx
Journey
Pat Benetar

 

[BradStevens]

After hearing that song, I'm going to make a playlist of these 80s superstars:

The Tubes
J Geils Band
Loverboy
80s Def Leppard
80s Styx
Journey
Pat Benetar

On cassette tape? Send me a copy.

 

[BradStevens]

After hearing that song, I'm going to make a playlist of these 80s superstars:

The Tubes
J Geils Band
Loverboy
80s Def Leppard
80s Styx
Journey
Pat Benetar

Add this to the list:

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

To the extent that children bear the brunt of the tough love policy, absolutely I would argue he was wrong. That's the conundrum. It might very well be that the only way we can help children born into poverty have better opportunities is to provide financial assistance to their parents.

A question: do you believe poverty can be fully eradicated if everyone just "made the right choices?" I'm not so sure.

I don’t even approach it that way - as something to be eradicated from the top down.

What I do think is that anybody who is determined to improve their lot in life can do so if they take a lot of right steps and avoid taking too many wrong ones.

It’s about like losing weight. Society can’t eliminate obesity. But if somebody wants to lose weight, they can do so. It’s up to them to do the things which lead to weight loss.

Social engineering is a delusion. And we’ll get better results if we stop approaching people’s problems that way.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

The "done picking cotton stuff" is obviously a metaphor, but of course it doesn't help when the president talks about "black jobs". What's a black job?

I’m hardly one to take up for Donald Trump. But I took him to mean jobs that had been occupied by black people - not jobs that are suited to or reserved for blacks.

Eloquence is not his strong suit.

 

[Mark Milton]

Add this to the list:

View embedded media

HELL YAH!! I'm gonna reach out and grab ya!!

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

Will you at least admit that Trump is right about China and other countries ripping us off with their trade practices? If we can all just agree on this then we can solve this problem because it will get worse and not better unless we do something about it.

I've never seen someone miss the mark by as widely as you just did.

Pastors should stick to things like religion. Nobody can be wrong or right about things that are made up.

 

[Mark Milton]

On cassette tape? Send me a copy.

I still have my VH mix tape on cassette--nothing but DLR VH. Two sides of magic.

 

[Mark Milton]

I’m hardly one to take up for Donald Trump. But I took him to mean jobs that had been occupied by black people - not jobs that are suited to or reserved for blacks.

Eloquence is not his strong suit.

I would agree with his lack of eloquence, but "black jobs" and jobs that "have been occupied by black people are distinctions without a difference"

 

[mcmurtry66]

I’m hardly one to take up for Donald Trump. But I took him to mean jobs that had been occupied by black people - not jobs that are suited to or reserved for blacks.

Eloquence is not his strong suit.

Trump isn’t a racist. He’s an opportunist. I agree with your interpretation. If the kkk said he’s the greatest he’d love the kkk. If blm said they want him to lead their March he’d be there tomorrow. Narcissist not racist

 

[VanPastorMan]

Pastors should stick to things like religion. Nobody can be wrong or right about things that are made up.

Are you saying there is not a 300 billion a yr trade deficit with China?

 

[BradStevens]

I don’t even approach it that way - as something to be eradicated from the top down.

What I do think is that anybody who is determined to improve their lot in life can do so if they take a lot of right steps and avoid taking too many wrong ones.

It’s about like losing weight. Society can’t eliminate obesity. But if somebody wants to lose weight, they can do so. It’s up to them to do the things which lead to weight loss.

Social engineering is a delusion. And we’ll get better results if we stop approaching people’s problems that way.

Disagree. You're assuming everyone has the same abilities to make decisions. They don't.

For example, just genetically speaking (if you consider IQ mostly genetic), 16% of people have IQs that are 85 or lower. Even for those above that number, you aren't taking account of upbringing, childhood trauma, etc. that leads to emotional or developmental issues throughout their lives.

(Re eliminating obesity, I don't think that's a good example. We might be on the cusp of that right now with semiglutides.)

Re social engineering, isn't that exactly what Franklin is supporting in the quote you just gave: "leading or driving them out of [poverty]." We have to make choices about public policy--to the extent we make a choice to affect how people act, by creating incentives, I'd say we are engaged in social engineering.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

I would agree with his lack of eloquence, but "black jobs" and jobs that "have been occupied by black people are distinctions without a difference"

Really? I don’t think so at all.

The context of his statement was about illegal immigrants taking jobs from people, and he was addressing a black group.

I think his point (right or wrong, not saying I agree with his logic necessarily) is that they’ve taken them from black Americans just like anybody else.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

Disagree. You're assuming everyone has the same abilities to make decisions. They don't.

For example, just genetically speaking (if you consider IQ mostly genetic), 16% of people have IQs that are 85 or lower. Even for those above that number, you aren't taking account of upbringing, childhood trauma, etc. that leads to emotional or developmental issues throughout their lives.

(Re eliminating obesity, I don't think that's a good example. We might be on the cusp of that right now with semiglutides.)

Re social engineering, isn't that exactly what Franklin is supporting in the quote you just gave: "leading or driving them out of [poverty]." We have to make choices about public policy--to the extent we make a choice to affect how people act, by creating incentives, I'd say we are engaged in social engineering.

Oh read Franklin’s quote again. He was most certainly not talking about social engineering.

He was talking about people reacting to incentives, for their own benefit, of their own accord.

That is not social engineering. It’s the antithesis of it.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

Are you saying there is not a 300 billion a yr trade deficit with China?

I'm saying you wouldn't understand Comparative Advantage, or economics more broadly, because you spend your time reading thousand-year-old made-up stories and trying to apply them to modern life.

 

[UncleMark]

Are you saying there is not a 300 billion a yr trade deficit with China?

Stop digging.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

Disagree. You're assuming everyone has the same abilities to make decisions. They don't.

For example, just genetically speaking (if you consider IQ mostly genetic), 16% of people have IQs that are 85 or lower. Even for those above that number, you aren't taking account of upbringing, childhood trauma, etc. that leads to emotional or developmental issues throughout their lives.

(Re eliminating obesity, I don't think that's a good example. We might be on the cusp of that right now with semiglutides.)

Re social engineering, isn't that exactly what Franklin is supporting in the quote you just gave: "leading or driving them out of [poverty]." We have to make choices about public policy--to the extent we make a choice to affect how people act, by creating incentives, I'd say we are engaged in social engineering.

Also, everybody has an equal ability to make decisions. Whether or not they make good ones is a different question.

And society should be arranged so that people are heavily incentivized to make good ones and heavily disincentivized to make bad ones.

So much of our public policy gets that backwards. It’s why we just had a president who wanted to have taxpayers pay off the bills for people who aren’t paying off their student loans (rewarding bad behavior) and do nothing but lift taxes on those who did (punishing good behavior).

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

On cassette tape? Send me a copy.

I still have cassette tapes in my old room (goes to show how well my parents have purged). Michael Jackson's bad has to be worth something, right?

 

[Mark Milton]

I'm saying you wouldn't understand Comparative Advantage, or economics more broadly, because you spend your time reading thousand-year-old made-up stories and trying to apply them to modern life.

MOFO, I have based my entire life off of Paddington the Bear.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Where you begin significantly impacts the odds of where you end

Maybe, but I think a lot depends upon what values you use to measure the end product,

I had an epiphany when we tandemed the 17 mile drive. Some of most expensive residential real estate in the world. I told my stoker that I can’t imagine these places making me any more content than my mountain cabin at a small fraction of the value. I’m sure the owners of those mansions had a much more elaborate starting point than me. But as far as I am concerned, we have the same ending.

 

[mcmurtry66]

I still have cassette tapes in my old room (goes to show how well my parents have purged). Michael Jackson's bad has to be worth something, right?

Has it been opened? What condition? The problem is so many were made. If it hasn’t been opened and is in good condition I’d value it at $22.

I’d love to have cray’s input here. It’s incredible to think how many no value dumb fcks are on this board and somehow (see mark) cray is gone

 

[mcmurtry66]

Maybe, but I think a lot depends upon what values you use to measure the end product,

I had an epiphany when we tandemed the 17 mile drive. Some of most expensive residential real estate in the world. I told my stoker that I can’t imagine these places making me any more content than my mountain cabin at a small fraction of the value. I’m sure the owners of those mansions had a much more elaborate starting point than me. But as far as I am concerned, we have the same ending.

Right but I’m not solely speaking about money. I’m talking about the school you went to. The career you had. Those are ends too. And getting to them is tantamount to conquering Everest with where some start

 

[BradStevens]

Also, everybody has an equal ability to make decisions.

Rethink that. It's silly.

 

[Mark Milton]

Has it been opened? What condition? The problem is so many were made. If it hasn’t been opened and is in good condition I’d value it at $22.

I’d love to have cray’s input here. It’s incredible to think how many no value dumb fcks are on this board and somehow (see mark) cray is gone

First, I have a Triumph Album on cassette that was never opened (Never Surrender). Tariffs should allow me to get $3.00 for that.

Second, don't understand your second paragraph

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

Rethink that. It's silly.

Explain how and why someone can’t make a decision to, say, avoid gambling, avoid drugs, or to show up on time.

 

[BradStevens]

First, I have a Triumph Album on cassette that was never opened (Never Surrender). Tariffs should allow me to get $3.00 for that.

Second, don't understand your second paragraph

He's referring to a founding member of the Dream Team. UncleMark banished him (some say actually had him offed, Putin style).

 

[Mark Milton]

He's referring to a founding member of the Dream Team. UncleMark banished him (some say actually had him offed, Putin style).

I believe that. Uncle Mark is a bad ass with poison

 

[BradStevens]

Explain how and why someone can’t make a decision to, say, avoid gambling, avoid drugs, or to show up on time.

Post 55 is a start.

 

[mcmurtry66]

First, I have a Triumph Album on cassette that was never opened (Never Surrender). Tariffs should allow me to get $3.00 for that.

Second, don't understand your second paragraph

Many of the posters on the board are totally worthless. We once had a poster who went by cray. He made his living on the backroads. Finding forgotten treasures with enough meat left on the bone that he could turn them

He was a political man too. Could clear out the board in less than an hour. With a Gatling gun approach to posting. Libs, primarily mark, had no defense so proceeded to just summarily ban him for long stretches. Then when he’d finally be freed he’d be wild. Feral almost. Each time they did it, to torture him, he’d come back worse.

Was a disgusting period on the board. A low point

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

Post 55 is a start.

Not really.

Lots of people who are born with low IQs or in bad households are perfectly capable of making good decisions. My business partner was raised by two alcoholic parents who beat the shit out of him once or twice a week. Why is it that he was able to make decisions to go in the right direction in life, but nobody else in those circumstances could?

So, no, I don’t think you’ve answered the question. You’re giving people excuses.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

Has it been opened? What condition? The problem is so many were made. If it hasn’t been opened and is in good condition I’d value it at $22.

I’d love to have cray’s input here. It’s incredible to think how many no value dumb fcks are on this board and somehow (see mark) cray is gone

Open, but the case has no scratches or dents. Like new.

I’d part ways with it for $5 if you know of any buyers.

 

[BradStevens]

Not really.

Lots of people who are born with low IQs or in bad households are perfectly capable of making good decisions. My business partner was raised by two alcoholic parents who beat the shit out of him once or twice a week. Why is it that he was able to make decisions to go in the right direction in life, but nobody else in those circumstances could?

So, no, I don’t think you’ve answered the question. You’re giving people excuses.

Bad logic.

Some (very few) one-legged people have run marathons. Under your reasoning then, all one-legged people have the same ability to run a marathon as all two-legged people.

 

[mcmurtry66]

I believe that. Uncle Mark is a bad ass with poison

He’s proved a very savvy political operative. The Mitch McConnell of rivals moderators. That said we could oust him with a coup. In speaking to the previous owner it became pretty clear that to do so would cost in the neighborhood of tens of dollars. Or in terms you’ll understand. A damaged Nintendo Mike Tyson punch out game with no box. There hasn’t been enough of an appetite; yet.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

Bad logic.

Some (very few) one-legged people have run marathons. Under your reasoning then, all one-legged people have the same ability to run a marathon as all two-legged people.

Everybody can make decisions. Everybody (of generally sound mind, etc) does make decisions, every day. Whether or not they make good ones is a different thing.

Anybody can choose whether or not to gamble. And I’d defy you to explain why you’d say otherwise. Very few people have been forced into drugs. Some have, yes. But they are a rarity among drug abusers. Most people got there by…having made a conscious decision to go there.

Even full-blown addicts can make decisions. Yeah, it’s a helluva lot harder to choose sobriety when you’re an addict. But never mistake that for having no choice. There are addicts who choose sobriety every day.

There’s a reason that your general vision of society has failed as badly as it has. And the evidence of that failure is all over the streets of our big cities.

Ben Franklin was right then, and what he said there would be just as applicable today.

If we want to get better results, we have to stop thinking as you do.

 

[BradStevens]

Everybody can make decisions. Everybody (of generally sound mind, etc) does make decisions, every day. Whether or not they make good ones is a different thing.

Anybody can choose whether or not to gamble. And I’d defy you to explain why you’d say otherwise. Very few people have been forced into drugs. Some have, yes. But they are a rarity among drug abusers. Most people got there by…having made a conscious decision to go there.

Even full-blown addicts can make decisions. Yeah, it’s a helluva lot harder to choose sobriety when you’re an addict. But never mistake that for having no choice. There are addicts who choose sobriety every day.

There’s a reason that your general vision of society has failed as badly as it has. And the evidence of that failure is all over the streets of our big cities.

Ben Franklin was right then, and what he said there would be just as applicable today.

If we want to get better results, we have to stop thinking as you do.

The general vision I'm describing is centered on facts. Individual human beings each do not have the same "ability to make good decisions." IQ, age, upbringing, emotional state, etc. all play a part and all differ. Your denial of these facts is silly and based on some fantasy view of human beings driven by your own hardened certainty about a particular organization of society.

How a society should be organized given these facts is another matter altogether. But no such organization can succeed, I'd argue, without taking account of reality. Your view on societal organization might be the best one--but it comes with a cost, a cost that you won't admit.

 

[UncleMark]

He’s proved a very savvy political operative. The Mitch McConnell of rivals moderators. That said we could oust him with a coup. In speaking to the previous owner it became pretty clear that to do so would cost in the neighborhood of tens of dollars. Or in terms you’ll understand. A damaged Nintendo Mike Tyson punch out game with no box. There hasn’t been enough of an appetite; yet.

The new kids are a different sort. They have real jobs and don't need the money like Jim did.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

First, I have a Triumph Album on cassette that was never opened (Never Surrender). Tariffs should allow me to get $3.00 for that.

Second, don't understand your second paragraph

As an aside, I bought this record album back in high school, based completely on the cover art being pretty badass:

Trillion was a 70's Chicago area prog rock band, and this album wasn't too bad.