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Marvin the Martian

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I know several of you were listening to Supernova in the East, what did you think of the final product? I learned from WW1 not to start a Carlin series until it is done, so I just finished all 6 and it is excellent. I love the description of the Japanese as, "like everyone else, just more so".

His point on the atomic bomb perhaps saving us from a future nuclear war is almost worth a thread on its own. I think he may have a point I've never considered. If we had never dropped the bombs in WW2, is it likely we would have used more, bigger bombs in a future war? We were close, the French developed a plan for us to rescue them at Dien Bien Phu with atomic weapons (Operation Vulture). Nixon loved the idea, Ike hated it but said he would do it if congress and the UK came along. Congress largely didn't like it, but told Ike they would approve it if he wanted it. Finally Churchill said the Brits were not going into Indochina, no way, no how. So Vulture was canceled. Even before that, one has to wonder if we would have used nukes on China during the Korean War if they had not been used before.
 

larsIU

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Apr 17, 2010
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I know several of you were listening to Supernova in the East, what did you think of the final product? I learned from WW1 not to start a Carlin series until it is done, so I just finished all 6 and it is excellent. I love the description of the Japanese as, "like everyone else, just more so".

His point on the atomic bomb perhaps saving us from a future nuclear war is almost worth a thread on its own. I think he may have a point I've never considered. If we had never dropped the bombs in WW2, is it likely we would have used more, bigger bombs in a future war? We were close, the French developed a plan for us to rescue them at Dien Bien Phu with atomic weapons (Operation Vulture). Nixon loved the idea, Ike hated it but said he would do it if congress and the UK came along. Congress largely didn't like it, but told Ike they would approve it if he wanted it. Finally Churchill said the Brits were not going into Indochina, no way, no how. So Vulture was canceled. Even before that, one has to wonder if we would have used nukes on China during the Korean War if they had not been used before.
I'm almost done. I've really enjoyed (probably not the right word) his vigor in noting the difference between the European theater and the Pacific. The brutality and level of sadism displayed by the Japanese (and later the Americans/Australians) is almost unreal. How the Japanese used the sadism to keep their own in line is horrific.

Also, there was no choice but to drop the bombs. Japan would have been slaughtered sure, but so would countless Americans and Australians trying to take the mainland. After having been through the Battle of Saipan there was really no other choice.
 

Marvin the Martian

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I'm almost done. I've really enjoyed (probably not the right word) his vigor in noting the difference between the European theater and the Pacific. The brutality and level of sadism displayed by the Japanese (and later the Americans/Australians) is almost unreal. How the Japanese used the sadism to keep their own in line is horrific.

Also, there was no choice but to drop the bombs. Japan would have been slaughtered sure, but so would countless Americans and Australians trying to take the mainland. After having been through the Battle of Saipan there was really no other choice.
We used to have people come here to argue we shouldn't have dropped the bombs. I am sympathetic to that position, but what we knew at the time made it an imperative. What we didn't know was that Japan had been sending peace overtures to the USSR as a mediator. The USSR did not want peace before they had a chance to gobble up Manchuria and Korea. So they never relayed any of that to us. Had Japan gone through say Switzerland, maybe we could have worked something out (but I doubt it). Given what we knew, there weren't options except A bombs, firebombs, invasion. Of the three options, invasion was the one to be avoided at all costs.

Using the words "unconditional surrender" was a terrible mistake by FDR. Without those words, maybe (just maybe) someone in the Axis powers takes a chance on surrender earlier.
 

larsIU

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We used to have people come here to argue we shouldn't have dropped the bombs. I am sympathetic to that position, but what we knew at the time made it an imperative. What we didn't know was that Japan had been sending peace overtures to the USSR as a mediator. The USSR did not want peace before they had a chance to gobble up Manchuria and Korea. So they never relayed any of that to us. Had Japan gone through say Switzerland, maybe we could have worked something out (but I doubt it). Given what we knew, there weren't options except A bombs, firebombs, invasion. Of the three options, invasion was the one to be avoided at all costs.

Using the words "unconditional surrender" was a terrible mistake by FDR. Without those words, maybe (just maybe) someone in the Axis powers takes a chance on surrender earlier.
The whole podcast did raise questions of how we allowed ourselves to get so caught up in Vietnam. Knowing what it would take to win that kind of pseudo-guerilla war in SE Asia and knowing that we wouldn't commit to it makes me believe the PTB at the time knew there was little way to win. And those PTB should have known better.

I don't think anyone wins in SE Asia by just dipping a toe in the water or proceeding with "limited" war. It seems like a whole different ball game. I guess some of that could be cultural. Thinking back to those who attempted to kill Hitler in (I think) 1944, I believe their plan was to then approach the western powers with a peace offer believing, like countless times before in Europe, a settlement could be reached, etc. I don't think those kind of cultural ties existed between the East and West in the early to mid 20th century. In WWII we were committed to the total destruction of Japan. Period. We certainly didn't do that in Korea, Vietnam nor even Afghanistan. I suppose the argument of whether we should have annihilated Korea or Vietnam has ghastly consequences either way. I suspect war usually does though.
 

jet812

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I know several of you were listening to Supernova in the East, what did you think of the final product? I learned from WW1 not to start a Carlin series until it is done, so I just finished all 6 and it is excellent. I love the description of the Japanese as, "like everyone else, just more so".

His point on the atomic bomb perhaps saving us from a future nuclear war is almost worth a thread on its own. I think he may have a point I've never considered. If we had never dropped the bombs in WW2, is it likely we would have used more, bigger bombs in a future war? We were close, the French developed a plan for us to rescue them at Dien Bien Phu with atomic weapons (Operation Vulture). Nixon loved the idea, Ike hated it but said he would do it if congress and the UK came along. Congress largely didn't like it, but told Ike they would approve it if he wanted it. Finally Churchill said the Brits were not going into Indochina, no way, no how. So Vulture was canceled. Even before that, one has to wonder if we would have used nukes on China during the Korean War if they had not been used before.
It was exceptional, Part 6 in particular. Ghosts of the Ostfront is still the benchmark for all history podcasts to be judged by, but this series was great too…
 

BradStevens

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The whole podcast did raise questions of how we allowed ourselves to get so caught up in Vietnam. Knowing what it would take to win that kind of pseudo-guerilla war in SE Asia and knowing that we wouldn't commit to it makes me believe the PTB at the time knew there was little way to win. And those PTB should have known better.

I don't think anyone wins in SE Asia by just dipping a toe in the water or proceeding with "limited" war. It seems like a whole different ball game. I guess some of that could be cultural. Thinking back to those who attempted to kill Hitler in (I think) 1944, I believe their plan was to then approach the western powers with a peace offer believing, like countless times before in Europe, a settlement could be reached, etc. I don't think those kind of cultural ties existed between the East and West in the early to mid 20th century. In WWII we were committed to the total destruction of Japan. Period. We certainly didn't do that in Korea, Vietnam nor even Afghanistan. I suppose the argument of whether we should have annihilated Korea or Vietnam has ghastly consequences either way. I suspect war usually does though.
A quibble: I don't think the U.S. was committed to the total "destruction" of Japan, but it was committed to a total surrender. In other words, had they unconditionally surrendered earlier, we would have accepted it and not said no, we are going to destroy your entire country first. We weren't the Mongols (another great series by Carlin).
 
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Crayfish57

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We used to have people come here to argue we shouldn't have dropped the bombs. I am sympathetic to that position, but what we knew at the time made it an imperative. What we didn't know was that Japan had been sending peace overtures to the USSR as a mediator. The USSR did not want peace before they had a chance to gobble up Manchuria and Korea. So they never relayed any of that to us. Had Japan gone through say Switzerland, maybe we could have worked something out (but I doubt it). Given what we knew, there weren't options except A bombs, firebombs, invasion. Of the three options, invasion was the one to be avoided at all costs.

Using the words "unconditional surrender" was a terrible mistake by FDR. Without those words, maybe (just maybe) someone in the Axis powers takes a chance on surrender earlier.

I admit jumping in late, but my biggest question about the bomb is someone was going to use it in some way regardless until the world saw what the results were in my opinion. It started out to be used against Germany and wasn't needed or ready in time. Japan was going to be a bloody invasion that could have taken a long , long time and a great toll of American lives and it was They that had attacked us to start with. Who knows how different things may be and I kind of agree with Patton , shouldve taken care of the Russians when we were there and had the chance.
 

Marvin the Martian

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I admit jumping in late, but my biggest question about the bomb is someone was going to use it in some way regardless until the world saw what the results were in my opinion. It started out to be used against Germany and wasn't needed or ready in time. Japan was going to be a bloody invasion that could have taken a long , long time and a great toll of American lives and it was They that had attacked us to start with. Who knows how different things may be and I kind of agree with Patton , shouldve taken care of the Russians when we were there and had the chance.
Napoleon and Hitler suggest taking care of the Russians was not going to be easy. Getting supplies from the US to the gates of Moscow would be very hard. Our troops in Europe were not that plentiful, our non com casualties had been high. Our units were depleted enough that Ike had requested Marines in January, but Marshall said no. While Soviet units were also depleted, defenders have an advantage.

And as Carlin pointed out, our home front was already straining. People were desperate to end the war.
 

Crayfish57

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Napoleon and Hitler suggest taking care of the Russians was not going to be easy. Getting supplies from the US to the gates of Moscow would be very hard. Our troops in Europe were not that plentiful, our non com casualties had been high. Our units were depleted enough that Ike had requested Marines in January, but Marshall said no. While Soviet units were also depleted, defenders have an advantage.

And as Carlin pointed out, our home front was already straining. People were desperate to end the war.
For sure and hindsight looking at the ''small'' wars after with Russia , but they didnt know how many A bombs we had either. I think using them on Japan was the right decision at the time. If Russia wouldve gotten involved in that and gotten a piece? Japan should thank us .
 
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UncleMark

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Has anyone seen the series Watchmen? Apologize if it’s been discussed on this thread before. After it won so many Emmys decided I needed to watch it. I know nothing about the comic, but I enjoyed it. Pretty strange, but well done.

We're three episodes in. I'm not into it, but will give it another episode or two to make me care. Otherwise, I'm not interested in investing any more time into it. SWCTR (she who controls the remote) hasn't said so explicitly, but I think she's leaning the same direction.
 
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mcmurtry66

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We're three episodes in. I'm not into it, but will give it another episode or two to make me care. Otherwise, I'm not interested in investing any more time into it. SWCTR (she who controls the remote) hasn't said so explicitly, but I think she's leaning the same direction.
your bride might not like it but if you put her to bed early and want a funny, entertaining, light hitman show i've thoroughly enjoyed mr inbetween on fx and hulu
 

Bulk VanderHuge

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Dec 20, 2017
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The Southern Sun
I'm in the middle of reading the new book by Carl Hiaasen, titled Squeeze Me.

Hiassen was a columnist for the Miami Herald for over 30 years. He has also written many humorous novels skewering corruption and greed in Florida. A running character in many of the novels is Clinton Tyree (Skink), a football star and Vietnam vet, and the former governor of Florida who walks off the job to live in the wild, and often fights environmental battles. He also lives on road kill alligator. Jimmy Buffett referenced him in a song.

Anyway, this novel is set just pre-pandemic, and centers around the havoc that is caused when a loose Burmese Python eats a rich old lady who is the head of a fan club of the Prez, called the Potussies, and who was high on Ecstasy outside of a huge mansion at a mega rich fundraiser in Palm Beach, and the coverup that follows.

WARNING: If you are in the Trump Cult, avoid this book at all costs. Just sayin'. 😉
 

mcmurtry66

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I'm in the middle of reading the new book by Carl Hiaasen, titled Squeeze Me.

Hiassen was a columnist for the Miami Herald for over 30 years. He has also written many humorous novels skewering corruption and greed in Florida. A running character in many of the novels is Clinton Tyree (Skink), a football star and Vietnam vet, and the former governor of Florida who walks off the job to live in the wild, and often fights environmental battles. He also lives on road kill alligator. Jimmy Buffett referenced him in a song.

Anyway, this novel is set just pre-pandemic, and centers around the havoc that is caused when a loose Burmese Python eats a rich old lady who is the head of a fan club of the Prez, called the Potussies, and who was high on Ecstasy outside of a huge mansion at a mega rich fundraiser in Palm Beach, and the coverup that follows.

WARNING: If you are in the Trump Cult, avoid this book at all costs. Just sayin'. 😉
oh god. is it any good? my daughter and i are reading scat right now. he's got a line of kid's books. i've read a lot of his books. they're fun
 

UncleMark

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We're three episodes in. I'm not into it, but will give it another episode or two to make me care. Otherwise, I'm not interested in investing any more time into it. SWCTR (she who controls the remote) hasn't said so explicitly, but I think she's leaning the same direction.
(Watchmen)
Got five minutes into the next episode and SWCTR said "This is fvcking stupid" and shut it down. I wasn't upset.
 
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Bulk VanderHuge

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oh god. is it any good? my daughter and i are reading scat right now. he's got a line of kid's books. i've read a lot of his books. they're fun
It's a typical Hiaasen novel. Fun, quick read, likable average Joe protagonists, stupid shitty people as villains, and wild chains of events.
Oh, and this one also includes a POTUS that seems very familiar. He is only referenced as his SS code name, "Mastodon". When he hears this is his code name, he attempts to schedule a trip to the zoo to see the mastodons in all their living glory. He is told they are on loan to the New Zealand Zoo. 😄
 

mcmurtry66

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It's a typical Hiaasen novel. Fun, quick read, likable average Joe protagonists, stupid shitty people as villains, and wild chains of events.
Oh, and this one also includes a POTUS that seems very familiar. He is only referenced as his SS code name, "Mastodon". When he hears this is his code name, he attempts to schedule a trip to the zoo to see the mastodons in all their living glory. He is told they are on loan to the New Zealand Zoo. 😄
LOL i'll have to pick it up
 

larsIU

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Premiers July 30th. Still haven't checked out Clarkson's farm show but getting around to it.
 
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Marvin the Martian

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Premiers July 30th. Still haven't checked out Clarkson's farm show but getting around to it.
It looks pretty good. I have a sneaky feeling this is the last.

Years ago when they were still at Top Gear, their social media people asked where they should visit that they never had. I suggested the Indianapolis Motor Speedway. It is too bad they never did, it seems a car show should.
 

larsIU

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It looks pretty good. I have a sneaky feeling this is the last.

Years ago when they were still at Top Gear, their social media people asked where they should visit that they never had. I suggested the Indianapolis Motor Speedway. It is too bad they never did, it seems a car show should.
Yeah they remind of a band that has all their own side gigs but it still best when they are together. I fear you're right though. But then again I thought they'd be done when the BBC booted them.
 

El Drado

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just finished Omnivore's Dilemma. Not earth shattering, but still had some good chapters.
up next: Homage to Catalonia

Any non-fiction suggestions? not really a war guy (even though i find personal accounts interesting)
 

zeke4ahs

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I'm in the middle of reading the new book by Carl Hiaasen, titled Squeeze Me.

Hiassen was a columnist for the Miami Herald for over 30 years. He has also written many humorous novels skewering corruption and greed in Florida. A running character in many of the novels is Clinton Tyree (Skink), a football star and Vietnam vet, and the former governor of Florida who walks off the job to live in the wild, and often fights environmental battles. He also lives on road kill alligator. Jimmy Buffett referenced him in a song.

Anyway, this novel is set just pre-pandemic, and centers around the havoc that is caused when a loose Burmese Python eats a rich old lady who is the head of a fan club of the Prez, called the Potussies, and who was high on Ecstasy outside of a huge mansion at a mega rich fundraiser in Palm Beach, and the coverup that follows.

WARNING: If you are in the Trump Cult, avoid this book at all costs. Just sayin'. 😉
I read this also and enjoyed. The Melania character was good too. The snake plot had me a little squeamish.
 
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CO. Hoosier

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thanks, already read his stuff.....personal favorite is Isaac's Storm
I liked Isaac’s Storm too. Galveston has a little museum and slide show about that. They built a 17 foot seewall to protect the city afterward. Hurricane Ike overtopped it In 2008.
 

TheOriginalHappyGoat

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Margaritaville
I'm in the middle of reading the new book by Carl Hiaasen, titled Squeeze Me.

Hiassen was a columnist for the Miami Herald for over 30 years. He has also written many humorous novels skewering corruption and greed in Florida. A running character in many of the novels is Clinton Tyree (Skink), a football star and Vietnam vet, and the former governor of Florida who walks off the job to live in the wild, and often fights environmental battles. He also lives on road kill alligator. Jimmy Buffett referenced him in a song.

Anyway, this novel is set just pre-pandemic, and centers around the havoc that is caused when a loose Burmese Python eats a rich old lady who is the head of a fan club of the Prez, called the Potussies, and who was high on Ecstasy outside of a huge mansion at a mega rich fundraiser in Palm Beach, and the coverup that follows.

WARNING: If you are in the Trump Cult, avoid this book at all costs. Just sayin'. 😉
I've not read Hiaasen, but I put this book on hold and read the sneak peek (basically the first three chapters). It could just be the Palm Beach setting, but it immediately reminded me of Lawrence Sanders. So now I'm going to give a couple of his other books a read while I'm waiting for the hold to come through. Starting today with Razor Girl.
 
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Bulk VanderHuge

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I've not read Hiaasen, but I put this book on hold and read the sneak peek (basically the first three chapters). It could just be the Palm Beach setting, but it immediately reminded me of Lawrence Sanders. So now I'm going to give a couple of his other books a read while I'm waiting for the hold to come through. Starting today with Razor Girl.
They turned his book Strip Tease into a movie starring Demi Moore and Burt Reynolds. Demi has a pretty interesting scene at the club. 😉Otherwise, a totally forgettable film.
 

Aloha Hoosier

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She Who Controls the Remote sounded doubtful but cued it up to get a look. It starts out just like a Terminator movie. Good. She loves Terminator movies.
Say what? “She” hardly ever touches the remote - she tells me what to tune in . . . ;)

I’m thinking about watching that movie tonight for pizza, beer and a movie night. My wife isn’t big on violence (won’t watch a horror or war movie with me), but she likes fantasy stuff OK. How’s this one?
 
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UncleMark

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Say what? “She” hardly ever touches the remote - she tells me what to tune in . . . ;)

I’m thinking about watching that movie tonight for pizza, beer and a movie night. My wife isn’t big on violence (won’t watch a horror or war movie with me), but she likes fantasy stuff OK. How’s this one?
It's a fine popcorn movie. It won't change your life, but you'll enjoy it I think.
 
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TheOriginalHappyGoat

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Margaritaville
They turned his book Strip Tease into a movie starring Demi Moore and Burt Reynolds. Demi has a pretty interesting scene at the club. 😉Otherwise, a totally forgettable film.
Razor Girl was fun. Definitely wasn't just the setting; there's a lot of Lawrence Sanders in his writing. Andrew Yancy seems a lot like how a cross between Archie McNally and Edward X. Delaney. But he also reminds me of Michael Connelly's characters.

Anyway, I'm going to read some more of his Florida novels. Nice, fun reads that you can do in a day or two.
 
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mcmurtry66

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@Marvin the Martian finished clarkson’s farm. I was shocked at the financials in the final episode. Wow!! He wants to do a second season but amazon hasn’t given him the green light yet.
 

TheOriginalHappyGoat

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Margaritaville
@Bulk VanderHuge My hold came through early, and I was able to follow up Razor Girl with Squeeze Me this weekend. I liked them both, but I can see why the latter would make Trump fans mighty steamed. The satire at some point crosses the boundary that separates the merely absurd from the astronomically ridiculous.

But count me as a new fan. I'll be reading more of his work. I'm thinking I might just work backwards, since I've read the two most recent already.
 

mcmurtry66

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@Bulk VanderHuge My hold came through early, and I was able to follow up Razor Girl with Squeeze Me this weekend. I liked them both, but I can see why the latter would make Trump fans mighty steamed. The satire at some point crosses the boundary that separates the merely absurd from the astronomically ridiculous.

But count me as a new fan. I'll be reading more of his work. I'm thinking I might just work backwards, since I've read the two most recent already.
Sick puppy and skinny dip are my favorites. Some of his are stand alone so you can differentiate that way too