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Moral Obligation Bipartisan Bill Addressing 2 Huge issues

and you wouldn't have to confiscate all of them already out there right off the bat for it to be effective.


And finally I think someone has said why many are against additional measures of “gun control”. You don’t have to take all of their guns right off the bat, just a few until they get more comfortable with it. Then take them all and we can control those stupid, uneducated, conservative, neandrathal redneck idiots who are subhuman.

Only “scholars” (read: better than you idiots) want more control, in the event that the controls already in place are not being properly enforced.
 
No, you can't make a firearm in the kitchen sink, but it can certainly be done in a small shop with basic machining equipment, and blueprints. There are also millions of enthusiasts with reloading equipment used for ammunition.

If your basic premise, though, is to effect a ban over a long period of time, generations, then I agree it's more doable. In fact, I think we're into that process now.

your basic thug, wife beater, mental case, doesn't have a machine shop and the know how, nor are the very very few that do the ones murdering people.

as for reloading ammo, good luck with that without access to gun powder. (which i'd also make illegal for Joe Blow to buy without proper permits and reasons. which he will be reticent to fabricate, as just applying to buy gun powder exposes him to being a possible gun owner).

like i said, those already holding guns and ammo will stay low to maximize their chances of keeping either as long as possible.

and firing a gun is still pretty tough without being heard.

as for your assertion that you think we are already slowly making guns illegal, while we are doing that with cigarettes, with guns, seems we are moving in the exact opposite direction than that.
 
And finally I think someone has said why many are against additional measures of “gun control”. You don’t have to take all of their guns right off the bat, just a few until they get more comfortable with it. Then take them all and we can control those stupid, uneducated, conservative, neandrathal redneck idiots who are subhuman.

Only “scholars” (read: better than you idiots) want more control, in the event that the controls already in place are not being properly enforced.

you misinterpreted what i said.

i AM in favor of banning all guns and ammo right off the bat. (but as i stated in a later post, i'm willing to compromise on the issue by allowing ownership of "arms", that would be the equivalent of an "arm" at the time of the writing of The Constitution).

i merely added that you wouldn't have to confiscate all already out there for said ban to be effective right off the bat.

would those already out there dwindle in time? no doubt.

as for the red necks who's life won't be worth living without their guns and ammo, find another interest in life.
 
I applaud you for your willingness to state your position ..... I think many share your position on the left.

shouldn't be a "left" or a "right" thing.

simply a public safety issue.

if people weren't using guns to kill other other people, i would have no problem with them.

if guns served some necessary actual purpose in life, like cars or even knives, i would feel differently.

but they don't.

trying to pigeonhole the debate as a left or right thing, is only to divert from the actual debate on it's own merits, to making it about clans, which has absolutely nothing to do with the merits of the debate.

if one can't win the debate on it's own merits, then make it about which clan do you belong to instead, rather than on the actual merits of the issue.
 
your basic thug, wife beater, mental case, doesn't have a machine shop and the know how, nor are the very very few that do the ones murdering people.

as for reloading ammo, good luck with that without access to gun powder. (which i'd also make illegal for Joe Blow to buy without proper permits and reasons. which he will be reticent to fabricate, as just applying to buy gun powder exposes him to being a possible gun owner).

like i said, those already holding guns and ammo will stay low to maximize their chances of keeping either as long as possible.

and firing a gun is still pretty tough without being heard.

as for your assertion that you think we are already slowly making guns illegal, while we are doing that with cigarettes, with guns, seems we are moving in the exact opposite direction than that.

With respect, I think you underestimate the ingenuity of our citizenry.

Sulfur+charcoal+saltpeter=blackpowder. Make sure to regulate those items out of existence as well.

One of the best places to hone shooting skills: an indoor range.

Yes, I think we're slowly making guns illegal, or at least harder to acquire. I agree with Hoosier_Hack's earlier statement, though, that a full ban will never happen.
 
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With respect, I think you underestimate the ingenuity of our citizenry.

Sulfur+charcoal+saltpeter=blackpowder. Make sure to regulate those items out of existence as well.

One of the best places to hone shooting skills: an indoor range.

Yes, I think we're slowly making guns illegal, or at least harder to acquire. I agree with Hoosier_Hack's earlier statement, though, that a full ban will never happen.

i think you're over estimating the ingenuity, work ethic, and resources of those doing the killing, and under estimating the ability to monitor any basic ingredients needed that don't have everyday uses by Joe Citizen. (such as with sudafed).

and how are indoor ranges going to stay legal, if guns and ammo are banned.

and if ammo is banned, nobody's gonna be wasting any ammo they already have on target practice, or taking their gun to a range where the cops will be just waiting for them.

and if you think we are slowly banning them now, you just haven't been paying attention.

we are expanding gun rights as we speak, not decreasing them.
 
i think you're over estimating the ingenuity, work ethic, and resources of those doing the killing, and under estimating the ability to monitor any basic ingredients needed that don't have everyday uses by Joe Citizen. (such as with sudafed).

and how are indoor ranges going to stay legal, if guns and ammo are banned.

and if ammo is banned, nobody's gonna be wasting any ammo they already have on target practice, or taking their gun to a range where the cops will be just waiting for them.

and if you think we are slowly banning them now, you just haven't been paying attention.

we are expanding gun rights as we speak, not decreasing them.

A ban is meaningless unless 600MM firearms are completely removed from private ownership first. Nevertheless, this tiny group of people you're referencing will absolutely find ways to get their hands on firearms; either by stealing, manufacturing, buying on a black market, smuggling from Canada or Mexico. Furthermore, some in the 99.9% of people you're not referencing will also find ways to acquire firearms, not for committing crimes, but for other reasons of human nature.

Sudafed is a poor example and gov't regulation of controlled substances isn't a successful model. Witness our heroin/opiod epidemic happening right now and the meth epidemic of the last 15 years. Witness the reality show Moonshiners. Raw materials can and will be appropriated. Indoor ranges can be established in basements, garages, barns, etc on private property. These private facilities already exist.

There's no such thing as a gun free utopia.
 
A ban is meaningless unless 600MM firearms are completely removed from private ownership first. Nevertheless, this tiny group of people you're referencing will absolutely find ways to get their hands on firearms; either by stealing, manufacturing, buying on a black market, smuggling from Canada or Mexico. Furthermore, some in the 99.9% of people you're not referencing will also find ways to acquire firearms, not for committing crimes, but for other reasons of human nature.

Sudafed is a poor example and gov't regulation of controlled substances isn't a successful model. Witness our heroin/opiod epidemic happening right now and the meth epidemic of the last 15 years. Witness the reality show Moonshiners. Raw materials can and will be appropriated. Indoor ranges can be established in basements, garages, barns, etc on private property. These private facilities already exist.

There's no such thing as a gun free utopia.

The gun the killer used in Florida costs tens of thousands of dollars on the Australian black market, so yes, it will help.

Other developed countries don't have anywhere near the amount of deaths per capita that we do with gun violence.

Just throwing up our hands and saying we can't do reasonable things to start reducing gun violence since it won't stop every single determined crazy person is a BS argument.
 
The gun the killer used in Florida costs tens of thousands of dollars on the Australian black market, so yes, it will help.

Other developed countries don't have anywhere near the amount of deaths per capita that we do with gun violence.

Just throwing up our hands and saying we can't do reasonable things to start reducing gun violence since it won't stop every single determined crazy person is a BS argument.

I agree with you, and I'm not suggesting that we throw up our hands. I'm merely pointing out common failure modes of a complete ban.
 
I am a gun owner and support our current gun laws. I am willing to support going to the table and offering a complete ban on assault weapons again for instance in exchange for a ban on third trimester abortions.

Is this something that both sides can sit down and discuss? Call it the Moral Obligation Bill or whatever. Can we put both issues into a bill that will address two giant issues on both sides of the aisle that causes everyone to dig their heels in?
This thread is a fascinating Exhibit A evidencing the ability of liberal ideologues to interfere with common-sense liberals' attempts to make this great nation more civilized. First note that you offered a complete ban on assault weapons in exchange a ban on third trimester abortions, and asked if this is something both sides can discuss.

Then note that Goat posts evidence that 1) 43 out of 50 states already have a ban on third trimester abortions, and 2) the medical exception in these bans is broad (evidently broad enough to allow practically any woman to claim mental health distress and get an abortion). And yet, liberal ideologues here don't see that they are being asked to give up virtually nothing and get something virtually impossible in return.
 
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A ban is meaningless unless 600MM firearms are completely removed from private ownership first. Nevertheless, this tiny group of people you're referencing will absolutely find ways to get their hands on firearms; either by stealing, manufacturing, buying on a black market, smuggling from Canada or Mexico. Furthermore, some in the 99.9% of people you're not referencing will also find ways to acquire firearms, not for committing crimes, but for other reasons of human nature.

Sudafed is a poor example and gov't regulation of controlled substances isn't a successful model. Witness our heroin/opiod epidemic happening right now and the meth epidemic of the last 15 years. Witness the reality show Moonshiners. Raw materials can and will be appropriated. Indoor ranges can be established in basements, garages, barns, etc on private property. These private facilities already exist.

There's no such thing as a gun free utopia.
You set up a false dichotomy. We must either reach gun free utopia or do nothing. Since utopia is always and everywhere out of reach by that logic we should never do anything about anything. To say that a ban is meaningless unless all 600 million firearms are removed from private hands is wrong. Connecticut saw a meaningful decrease in firearm deaths when it made some guns less accessible. Missouri saw a meaningful increase in firearm deaths when it made some guns more accessible. Neither of those policies had hardly any impact on the number of guns available nationwide.

You are describing gun owners as if they were addicts and the purveyors of illicit guns are like drug dealers. I don't believe anything like that is remotely true for most gun owners. Moreover, since there is no need to ban guns full stop...or to ban target shooting...those who do have a jones for target practice, hunting and self-protection will be able to do so. The remaining illicit traffic in guns will be restricted to criminals of all varieties. Cracking down on those who sell guns illegally and regulating gun sales much more tightly will greatly reduce that trade. But we won't reach utopia.
 
That's for the legal system to decide. If it's a frivolous lawsuit, then it will be tossed
There are frivolous lawsuits filed everyday.....There is zero excuse for blanket immunity...no other industry has such a protection.

If I make a sauce pan and you use it to bash someone’s Head in how am I responsible? The end run is an effective gun ban by suing the pant s of people in frivolous lawsuits.... just like outlawing certain ammo....

Clever end runs isn’t going to address the issue. Gotta bring what’s important to you to the table to get somewhere.

@CO. Hoosier can explain it better than I.

I don't think a maker and seller of pots and pans will be liable when it is used as a weapon. Why? Because the pots and pans maker isn't marketing the item as a weapon and its use as a weapon is not foreseeable.

Consideration of this question presupposes a product that is not only inherently dangerous but is made, marketed, and sold in a manner where damages and injury from it are foreseeable. The courts will engage in a balancing test--the social utility of the item vs. its risk of harm.

These cases are not about the industry being liable for the misuse of the product. The law doesn't permit that under most circumstances. The theory of liability rests on the conduct of the provider of the product and how it choses to market the product.

Using the balancing test, the civil justice system has determined:

190 degree coffee, which causes third degree burns in a few seconds, presents an unreasonable risk of harm when served to a customer in a moving vehicle. Cooler coffee in the 140 degree range does not cause burns and does not lessen the utility of the product.

3-wheeled ATV's are dangerous and should not be sold.

Motorcycles without sissy bars, while carrying an increased risk of harm than those with, have utility that outweighs the danger.

IMO, an automobile sold today without air bags would carry an unreasonable risk of harm given air bag technology. The existence of federal regs complicates this issue. But the civil justice system had made automobiles safer--the shape of dashboard knobs is one example.

I've linked this before. The drug companies are beginning to take incoming from the trial lawyers over the way they are making and distributing opioids. These cases are applying the balancing test.

The point is that the civil justice system indeed helps keep all of us safer. The civil justice system does that by putting economic risk of loss on the people who receive the economic benefit of providing the product in question. This is called free market and is a concept that goes back hundreds of years into English common law. The immunity legislation throws all of this into a cocked hat by misplacing the risk of loss for damage and injury. There were a number of gun cases pending and threatened that resulted in the immunity legislation. One of those was a claim based on too many guns being distributed in the Chicago suburbs leading to the foreseeable conclusion that those guns were being resold in the black market of the back alleys of Chicago. This is similar to the claim against the opioids about too many pills being pumped into small rural areas.

In the case of guns, I think the jury should determine if the providers of guns have any responsibility along with the economic benefit they receive from selling weapons like the AR 15, high capacity magazines, and unlimited high kinetic energy rounds, all unrestricted to the anybody who manages to pass a background check.

Finally, look at how the Fort Hood shooter bought his guns and ammo. If we didn't have immunity I think the seller would be at risk. Even the prospect of civil liability would likely lessen the amount of guns and ammo sold, and it might even result in certain weapons not being sold at all, like the 3 wheeled ATV.
 
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You set up a false dichotomy. We must either reach gun free utopia or do nothing. Since utopia is always and everywhere out of reach by that logic we should never do anything about anything.

You've connected dots that aren't there. Nowhere have I espoused an all or nothing approach. See my response to Fro.

To say that a ban is meaningless unless all 600 million firearms are removed from private hands is wrong.

In the context of IGW's ban of all firearms, yes, I think leaving banned firearms in circulation will lead to banned firearms being possessed by both good and bad elements of the populace. In the context of your Connecticut example, yes, I think making certain firearms harder to acquire can reduce the frequency of gun crime.

You are describing gun owners as if they were addicts and the purveyors of illicit guns are like drug dealers. I don't believe anything like that is remotely true for most gun owners.

IGW introduced regulation of Sudafed as an example of successful gov't intervention to keep raw materials unavailable. I was just pointing out that said gov't intervention is not 100% successful because of human nature and, thus, wouldn't be sound way of maintaining a ban on all firearms and ammunition.

Moreover, since there is no need to ban guns full stop...or to ban target shooting...those who do have a jones for target practice, hunting and self-protection will be able to do so. The remaining illicit traffic in guns will be restricted to criminals of all varieties. Cracking down on those who sell guns illegally and regulating gun sales much more tightly will greatly reduce that trade. But we won't reach utopia.

So, ultimately, we agree.
 
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