Israel under attack from Hamas

[Mas-sa-suta]

Hamas has a parasitic relationship upon the Gazans, literally living off their blood, much as the Hez do in the West Bank. There's no nation as such, and most of the residents live at the convenience of the ruling cliques.
There's no relationship between warring Muslim zealot gangs and elected National Socialism political parties.

Everything pretty much looks like a nail to you, doesn't it?

 

[IUCrazy2]

Hamas has a parasitic relationship upon the Gazans, literally living off their blood, much as the Hez do in the West Bank. There's no nation as such, and most of the residents live at the convenience of the ruling cliques.
There's no relationship between warring Muslim zealot gangs and elected National Socialism political parties.

Everything pretty much looks like a nail to you, doesn't it?

Virulent antisemitism, blaming the Jews for their lot in life, espousing eradication of Jews as necessary for the benefit of their beliefs, seized power over their people while garnering less than 50% of an election, suspending elections thereafter, murdered their political opponents after taking power....yeah, no parallels there at all.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

We have to support Israel, but also try to act like we are tempering their worst impulses. But then, on top of that, we have to make it not look like we are restraining them. I

Why?

We’ve spent more than a half a century playing the part of a wise objective force for peace and it has not only been unsuccessful, but has been counterproductive. It leads to increasing violence. Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah, and Palestinians have cred none of them deserve.

Time to pick a side and move forward. That is what being the leader of the free world is all about ( assuming there such a thing as the free world and if so it has a leader).

 

[IUCrazy2]

Strange.

My question up above was answered later on in the thread though, they got the guy they were going for. Get this, it appears he was hanging out in a tunnel underneath a residential area and the tunnel collapsed on him and several of his compatriots and they died. Apparently Trenors was real and there are a bunch of large worms under Palestine. Only rational explanation I suppose.

 

[anon_mya1phvcpf5x4]

Why?

We’ve spent more than a half a century playing the part of a wise objective force for peace and it has not only been unsuccessful, but has been counterproductive. It leads to increasing violence. Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah, and Palestinians have cred none of them deserve.

Time to pick a side and move forward. That is what being the leader of the free world is all about ( assuming there such a thing as the free world and if so it has a leader).

yea...because bombing them to oblivion won't create more enemies... better get them all.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

No, just the typical leftist siding with the bad guys because of their reflexive anti-Western stance. Morons like her are the first ones to die if half the regimes she supports in the world were to take over.

Say you didn't pay attention without saying you didn't pay attention.

 

[IUCrazy2]

Say you didn't pay attention without saying you didn't pay attention.

I did pay attention. She wants to group the "oppressed" under her political tent (the left). She wants to claim their cause without claiming them because she believes the "left" is a coalition against Westernism but defending all that "keel zee jooos" stuff is pretty hard. There is nothing "left" about Hamas or the Palestinians except that they are viewed as people standing up against a Western power, a Colonialist entity.

If her view of the left is that it is opposed to the "West", then she is my enemy and her ideology should be smashed. Mostly because she is a moron who will decry the patriarchy, homophobia, human rights abuses, etc., etc. that she believes is happening in the evil West while propping up the most egregious offenders of all those things because she views them as "oppressed people standing up against the West."

Those people would toss her off a building.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

yea...because bombing them to oblivion won't create more enemies... better get them all.

Germany and Japan have been allies for 75 years. Assuming many Palestinians want ordinary lives in peace, we need to destroy their terrorist civil structure for normalcy to flourish.

 

[anon_mya1phvcpf5x4]

Germany and Japan have been allies for 75 years. Assuming many Palestinians want ordinary lives in peace, we need to destroy their terrorist civil structure for normalcy to flourish.

And they surrendered.

You'll find more people won't want peace if you show too much brutality.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

And they surrendered.

You'll find more people won't want peace if you show too much brutality

Which is why we must go back to Trumps maximum pressure policy . That will lessen the bombs.

”Don’t, Don't,, Don’t” coupled with bombing empty warehouses isn’t cuttin‘ it.

 

[hookyIU1990]

It seems not long ago we were aghast people would get in trouble for free speech, now we seem to applaud it?

I have no worries about it personally, but I wonder how far we are willing to go. A celebrity made the text below and has been getting backlash:

“because my heart breaks to see all of the horror, hate, violence and terror that’s going on in the world. People being tortured and killed or any act of hate towards any one group is horrific. We need to protect ALL people, especially children and stop the violence for good.”​

​

Is that statement really controversial? I will gladly state I don't want Israeli or Palestinian children to be killed. Heck, I don't want the adults killed unless they are actually involved in terror.

That sounds like the equivalent of people saying "All Lives Matter," and that person is getting the same type of backlash. Everybody has to take a side. It's endemic to most politically charged discussions and I find it both sad and counterproductive.

 

[anon_mya1phvcpf5x4]

Which is why we must go back to Trumps maximum pressure policy . That will lessen the bombs.

”Don’t, Don't,, Don’t” coupled with bombing empty warehouses isn’t cuttin‘ it.

lol, just like how Trump removed us from the Iran deal and we lost oversight on limiting their nuclear ambitions.

Yea, I'm sure Trumpy would fix all lmao. Trump has more pressing matters to worry about. like staying out of jail.

 

[larsIU]

And they surrendered.

You'll find more people won't want peace if you show too much brutality.

Bombing of Tokyo - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Sometimes you have to show peace is the only way for them to survive as well. Hirohito surrendured b/c there was no other option other than their complete and utter destruction.

The stick has to be real and far more of a threat than a peace.

Unless you believe detente is on the horizon? I don't.

 

[mcmurtry66]

View embedded media

Strange.

My question up above was answered later on in the thread though, they got the guy they were going for. Get this, it appears he was hanging out in a tunnel underneath a residential area and the tunnel collapsed on him and several of his compatriots and they died. Apparently Trenors was real and there are a bunch of large worms under Palestine. Only rational explanation I suppose.

same thing got the surfside condo

 

[mcmurtry66]

lol, just like how Trump removed us from the Iran deal and we lost oversight on limiting their nuclear ambitions.

Yea, I'm sure Trumpy would fix all lmao. Trump has more pressing matters to worry about. like staying out of jail.

he was nominated for the nobel peace prize for his groundbreaking work in the middle east. peace and harmony throughout the world during trump's tenure. and please don't forget Kush was instrumental in same. biden should swallow his pride and reach out to kush and sort some of this out

 

[CO. Hoosier]

lol, just like how Trump removed us from the Iran deal and we lost oversight on limiting their nuclear ambitions.

We never had oversight. Obama lied to you.

 

[twenty02]

Hamas has a parasitic relationship upon the Gazans, literally living off their blood, much as the Hez do in the West Bank. There's no nation as such, and most of the residents live at the convenience of the ruling cliques.
There's no relationship between warring Muslim zealot gangs and elected National Socialism political parties.

Everything pretty much looks like a nail to you, doesn't it?

Hezbollah is in Lebanon, not the West Bank.

 

[anon_mya1phvcpf5x4]

We never had oversight. Obama lied to you.

lol do you believe in unicorns as well?

I think Trump lied to you about that. But I'm sure in the midst of all of his lying, you think that was the truth lmao.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I did pay attention. She wants to group the "oppressed" under her political tent (the left). She wants to claim their cause without claiming them because she believes the "left" is a coalition against Westernism but defending all that "keel zee jooos" stuff is pretty hard. There is nothing "left" about Hamas or the Palestinians except that they are viewed as people standing up against a Western power, a Colonialist entity.

If her view of the left is that it is opposed to the "West", then she is my enemy and her ideology should be smashed. Mostly because she is a moron who will decry the patriarchy, homophobia, human rights abuses, etc., etc. that she believes is happening in the evil West while propping up the most egregious offenders of all those things because she views them as "oppressed people standing up against the West."

Those people would toss her off a building.

Except she didn't do any of that except in your head. I already clearly explained it with a link to her own response from ten years ago. Hoos had no problem understanding it. But you refuse to. That's on you.

 

[anon_mya1phvcpf5x4]

Bombing of Tokyo - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Sometimes you have to show peace is the only way for them to survive as well. Hirohito surrendured b/c there was no other option other than their complete and utter destruction.

The stick has to be real and far more of a threat than a peace.

Unless you believe detente is on the horizon? I don't.

It's a balance for sure but so far bombing and then asking if they submit to playing nice hasn't really worked out so well.

Maybe due to not much of a threat of invasion/conquering after said bombing.

Hopefully this doesn't turn into a lets see how many civilians we can kill competition between Israel and Hamas.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Ultimately, peace comes from replicating what happened between them - humans connecting on a human level.

This is true, but there is a condition precedent that must first be met: Hamas must go. Do you think there ever could have been peace with Germany without destroying the civil order and subsequent de-nazification under the leadership of the West? The way to bring peace to Gaza and the West Bank is to obliterate Hamas, eliminate Iran influence, and put those places under the control of Liberal western leadership. This can’t be done overnight. It will be 1 or 2 generations.

 

[Mas-sa-suta]

Virulent antisemitism, blaming the Jews for their lot in life, espousing eradication of Jews as necessary for the benefit of their beliefs, seized power over their people while garnering less than 50% of an election, suspending elections thereafter, murdered their political opponents after taking power....yeah, no parallels there at all.

You're confused...again

The earlier thread was about the NATO (US) proxy AZOV/Zelenskyy forces..not this one.

 

[larsIU]

It's a balance for sure but so far bombing and then asking if they submit to playing nice hasn't really worked out so well.

Maybe due to not much of a threat of invasion/conquering after said bombing.

Hopefully this doesn't turn into a lets see how many civilians we can kill competition between Israel and Hamas.

The US killed over 80,000 Japanese in a night. Mostly, if not entirely, civilians. Why? B/c it's war. Sadly, one of the greatest resources a warring nation has are its people. The pressure on Hirohito was intense to continue the war but he chose the right path (obviously, considering Japan's rise post war).

I don't know how much more Israel should take. Hamas is the governing party of Palestine. I'm sure many of the Japanese killed by US incendiary devices weren't big fans of their government by that point either. Hamas, and by extension the Palestinians, must understand there is no going back to "the way things were before". This is a pivot. If the Palestinians truly understand that, and (this is the biggest unknown) Israel will allow territoyr for them to call a country - then the Palestinian people should kill their leaderhip and present them to the Israelis.

It's ****ed up. The whole situation.

 

[Spartans9312]

The US killed over 80,000 Japanese in a night. Mostly, if not entirely, civilians. Why? B/c it's war. Sadly, one of the greatest resources a warring nation has are its people. The pressure on Hirohito was intense to continue the war but he chose the right path (obviously, considering Japan's rise post war).

I don't know how much more Israel should take. Hamas is the governing party of Palestine. I'm sure many of the Japanese killed by US incendiary devices weren't big fans of their government by that point either. Hamas, and by extension the Palestinians, must understand there is no going back to "the way things were before". This is a pivot. If the Palestinians truly understand that, and (this is the biggest unknown) Israel will allow territoyr for them to call a country - then the Palestinian people should kill their leaderhip and present them to the Israelis.

It's ****ed up. The whole situation.

“A particular obstacle to warnings in Gaza is Hamas’s practice of human shielding. In the past, there have been many instances where civilians have moved voluntarily to the vicinity of targets following IDF warnings. Even more egregious is the use of involuntary human shields. With Hamas holding 200 hostages, the potential for their movement to locations regarding which the IDF issues a specific warning is high. When a warning is likely to result in human shielding, the situation amounts to one in which a warning is not feasible.”

“As has been illustrated in Gaza, civilians do not always heed warnings. This may be because they prefer to remain in place, lack the capacity to move, wish to demonstrate support for Hamas, or fear Hamas’s retaliation if they leave. Their motivation is irrelevant; they remain civilians whom the IDF must factor into it’s proportionality calculations, as well as into its assessment of whether other precautions to minimize harm to them, such as the selection of a different weapon, are feasible.”

 

[twenty02]

Hamas is most certainly finished in Gaza.... How long it takes, who knows, but they are certainly not going to remain in power in Gaza. The perplexing question is who is going to administer the place and what kind of military peacekeeping resources are going to be needed? Israel certainly does not want to occupy it. I don't think the UN is the answer. Will some Arab coalition step up and do it?

The PA doesn't seem capable of this, at least not in the medium term.

 

[larsIU]

“As has been illustrated in Gaza, civilians do not always heed warnings. This may be because they prefer to remain in place, lack the capacity to move, wish to demonstrate support for Hamas, or fear Hamas’s retaliation if they leave. Their motivation is irrelevant; they remain civilians whom the IDF must factor into it’s proportionality calculations, as well as into its assessment of whether other precautions to minimize harm to them, such as the selection of a different weapon, are feasible.”

An impossible task.

Will some Arab coalition step up and do it?

 

[Sope Creek]

The US killed over 80,000 Japanese in a night. Mostly, if not entirely, civilians. Why? B/c it's war. Sadly, one of the greatest resources a warring nation has are its people. The pressure on Hirohito was intense to continue the war but he chose the right path (obviously, considering Japan's rise post war).

I don't know how much more Israel should take. Hamas is the governing party of Palestine. I'm sure many of the Japanese killed by US incendiary devices weren't big fans of their government by that point either. Hamas, and by extension the Palestinians, must understand there is no going back to "the way things were before". This is a pivot. If the Palestinians truly understand that, and (this is the biggest unknown) Israel will allow territoyr for them to call a country - then the Palestinian people should kill their leaderhip and present them to the Israelis.

It's ****ed up. The whole situation.

What's interesting is that, according to the authors of the book Oppenheimer, Japan was ready to surrender before the Hiroshima bomb and certainly before the Nagasaki bomb. I hadn't heard that before. I'd heard only that the US dropped the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki to save American lives in the impending invasion of Japan. Turns out - according to the authors of Oppenheimer that those bombings were meant for Stalin's understanding of the post-war world. (Full disclosure: my family is from Missouri. Family lore has it that my ne'er-do-well paternal grandfather took Truman to the cleaners in a levee craps or card game. Gambling of some sort. Family lore also has it that we were related to James K. Polk by marriage if that helps with the truthfulness of the lore.)

Another of the more interesting themes discussed by the book is the use of tactical (battlefield) vs. strategic (civilian population targets) atomic weapons, although IIRC Oppenheimer seemed to distinguish between atomic (the Hiroshima bomb had a destructive power of 15,000 tons of TNT) and hydrogen bombs (with a destructive power of 1 million Hiroshima bombs or 1 million tons of TNT, I forget which).

I agree with twenty: Hamas is done for in Gaza, but I would add that such is likely the case whether Israel crushes Gaza or not. My guess (and it's just a guess) Palestinians aren't going to put up with Hamas anymore.

BTW, Oppenheimer is a good read. Lots of time and energy spent on trying to prove Oppenheimer wasn't a security risk, which I believe he wasn't. Lots of time and energy spent on trying to prove Oppenheimer wasn't a member of the Communist Party, which I think the authors aren't as clear on.

 

[Spartans9312]

It's a balance for sure but so far bombing and then asking if they submit to playing nice hasn't really worked out so well.

Maybe due to not much of a threat of invasion/conquering after said bombing.

Hopefully this doesn't turn into a lets see how many civilians we can kill competition between Israel and Hamas.

The defender has obligations, too. The defender can’t use civilians as shields. The defender can’t locate defensive positions inside civilian areas to avoid attack. The defender has the same obligation as the attacker to remove civilians from areas likely to be attacked.

 

[DANC]

View embedded media

"heavy drinking whore" lmao

 

[DANC]

View embedded media

Stupid bitch

 

[Bloom.]

Which is why we must go back to Trumps maximum pressure policy . That will lessen the bombs.

”Don’t, Don't,, Don’t” coupled with bombing empty warehouses isn’t cuttin‘ it.

LOL what was the maximum pressure policy?

 

[Marvin the Martian]

What's interesting is that, according to the authors of the book Oppenheimer, Japan was ready to surrender before the Hiroshima bomb and certainly before the Nagasaki bomb. I hadn't heard that before. I'd heard only that the US dropped the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki to save American lives in the impending invasion of Japan. Turns out - according to the authors of Oppenheimer that those bombings were meant for Stalin's understanding of the post-war world. (Full disclosure: my family is from Missouri. Family lore has it that my ne'er-do-well paternal grandfather took Truman to the cleaners in a levee craps or card game. Gambling of some sort. Family lore also has it that we were related to James K. Polk by marriage if that helps with the truthfulness of the lore.)

Another of the more interesting themes discussed by the book is the use of tactical (battlefield) vs. strategic (civilian population targets) atomic weapons, although IIRC Oppenheimer seemed to distinguish between atomic (the Hiroshima bomb had a destructive power of 15,000 tons of TNT) and hydrogen bombs (with a destructive power of 1 million Hiroshima bombs or 1 million tons of TNT, I forget which).

I agree with twenty: Hamas is done for in Gaza, but I would add that such is likely the case whether Israel crushes Gaza or not. My guess (and it's just a guess) Palestinians aren't going to put up with Hamas anymore.

BTW, Oppenheimer is a good read. Lots of time and energy spent on trying to prove Oppenheimer wasn't a security risk, which I believe he wasn't. Lots of time and energy spent on trying to prove Oppenheimer wasn't a member of the Communist Party, which I think the authors aren't as clear on.

There were some wanting to surrender. But even after both bombs, the war cabinet vote was tied and broken by the Emperor. This triggered a revolution and the Imperial Palace was seized. One brave subordinate of the Emperor hid the wax recording announcing the surrender. Once it was played to the nation, the coup fell apart and the leaders killed themselves.

So a tied vote combined with a coup saved by one man's ability to hide the record doesn't make me believe the Japanese were just moments from surrender.

 

[DANC]

Thank God you two aren't in charge of policy.

Oh yeah, the US would never bomb any hospitals unless they were 100% sure it was used for military purposes.

Hiroshima says Hi.

 

[DANC]

This is precisely the problem with the war on terrorism and/or guerilla fighters in general. You cannot show restraint for an enemy that doesn't abide by or use conventional tactics. If it were a [insert any military organization, whether state-recognized or not] fighting by attacking military installations, it would be one thing. But indiscriminate attacks on civilians need to be met with purpose and finality. Neither of those is possible if any country (US, Israel, Europeans, etc.) are hamstrung.

That's the biggest challenge with Islamic fundamentalism. They don't give a fvck about the GEneva convention, but anyone who fights against them has to. That's not right or fair IMO.

EDITED: sorry, I've been pounding Wassails since trick or treating started, not my best post

I've heard 'rules of war' thrown around so much, I have to laugh.

There are no 'rules of war' when one side abides by no rules. And there are no rules Hamas abides by. None whatsoever.

 

[IUCrazy2]

Hamas is most certainly finished in Gaza.... How long it takes, who knows, but they are certainly not going to remain in power in Gaza. The perplexing question is who is going to administer the place and what kind of military peacekeeping resources are going to be needed? Israel certainly does not want to occupy it. I don't think the UN is the answer. Will some Arab coalition step up and do it?

The PA doesn't seem capable of this, at least not in the medium term.

Fatah is the only answer at the moment. The Israelis will probably have to bolster their attempts at controlling the territory by providing them support to make them at least appear to be a welcome alternative.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Fatah is the only answer at the moment. The Israelis will probably have to bolster their attempts at controlling the territory by providing them support to make them at least appear to be a welcome alternative.

Fatah doesn't want it. They've already said if they have to take over Gaza, it's as part of a Palestinian state. This is Israel's problem now.

The Guardian reported yesterday that Israel and the US were in talks about a peacekeeping force. We could be seeing US troops patrolling the streets in Gaza City for years.

 

[DontComeAroundMuch]

Fatah doesn't want it. They've already said if they have to take over Gaza, it's as part of a Palestinian state. This is Israel's problem now.

The Guardian reported yesterday that Israel and the US were in talks about a peacekeeping force. We could be seeing US troops patrolling the streets in Gaza City for years.

Or from the river to the sea, Israel will be free. Let’s push those Palestinians into the ocean if no one will take them in.

Turnabout is fair play.

 

[DontComeAroundMuch]

Israel took 15+ KIA yesterday alone. If this is just the beginning of the ground invasion, I hate to see what’s coming in the next few months.

 

[Sope Creek]

There were some wanting to surrender. But even after both bombs, the war cabinet vote was tied and broken by the Emperor. This triggered a revolution and the Imperial Palace was seized. One brave subordinate of the Emperor hid the wax recording announcing the surrender. Once it was played to the nation, the coup fell apart and the leaders killed themselves.

So a tied vote combined with a coup saved by one man's ability to hide the record doesn't make me believe the Japanese were just moments from surrender.

I understand. You'll have to take up the issue with the authors of Oppenheimer.

They say Russia was about to declare war on Japan on August 15, 1945, at the US' request. Had the Japanese any inkling that might happen, I can see how they might surrender.

 

[anon_mya1phvcpf5x4]

LOL what was the maximum pressure policy?

Trump was going to sit on their head if they didn't comply lol