Israel under attack from Hamas
- Thread starter JamieDimonsBalls
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Presidents are authorized by law to hold weapons transfers if the recipient is engaged in violation of humanitarian rights and laws. Biden is citing this in his hold. Right or wrong (and I personally think he’s wrong) his hold is legal. Many Presidents have done exactly the same. Trump’s hold was not for anything authorized by law. Criticize Biden for his decision. I do. However, his decision is clearly lawful while Trump’s was not.
UN Halves Its Estimate of Women and Children Killed in Gaza
Between May 6 and May 8, the UN cut in half its estimates of the number of women and children killed in Gaza. The estimates were based on Hamas numbers and are a reminder that all fatality estimates …www.cfr.org
How much of the administration's response (and the world at large) is believing fabrications from known fabricators who also happen to be terrorist assholes?
Almost everything about the modern conception of what "Palestine" and "Palestinians" is and are are complete fabrications of 1960's Arab radicals pissed that Jews bested them. And that lying idea has produced an entire people whose conception of what they are is a complete fabrication. An entire society built on lying to themselves and anyone else who will listen.
As far as Biden holding up the arms, it is being done for domestic political reasons in defiance of Congressional appropriations. Lawyers can argue over the minutiae but the material difference is negligible. People just don't like Trump so everything he does gets blown up into being the biggest "horrible" that could ever befall a country.
The issue that is going to occur is that Biden is in real danger of getting rolled by the person he and his party have been chasing around with lawfare. Trump very well may be taking office in January with a chip on his shoulder, an axe to grind, and 4 years of precedence available to guide his revenge tour.
Says the guy willing to subjugate every Ukrainian man, woman and child to Putin’s authority.
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Please. This thread is about the Israeli ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. Try to stay on topic.
This thread is literally about
Israel under attack from Hamas
and the war that resulted. Since ethnic cleansing isn’t happening, it certainly isn’t about that. Unless you mean Hamas’ desire to kill every Israeli and cause Israel to cease to exist.
Well, it can't really be debated that there are large factions on both sides that want ethnic cleansing. "From the river to the sea" can't really be accomplished without getting rid of a lot of Jews. The one-state solution likewise can't really be implemented without getting rid of a lot of Arabs.
The debatable part is how far either side has gone to implement such a cleansing, and whether or not they've crossed a line (likely arbitrary) that would allow us to say that some form of cleansing is actually happening.
How many of those are because of Hamas?
How do you determine how many is too many in a war? Do you have a standard?
you are a prisoner of the moment. Israel has been invaded by most of its neighbors at the same time on multiple occasions. as grim as 10/7 was, these wars were existential threats. even then, US presidents supported Israel while also demanding Israeli discretion.
the change needed is for the western-backed, highly-developed, nuclear-armed nation to find a reasonable solution for the 2 million people it keeps stateless and insecure on its ever-growing borders.
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yes, the UN has standards for engaging non-combatants. the 1949 Geneva Convention plus Additional Protocols in 1977 were ratified by all member states, including Israel.
no, acceptable body counts of civilians aren't listed. weird question.
the vast majority of Americans wanted us involved in Vietnam until they didn't. same with Afghanistan and Iraq.
Funny how it all shakes out.
I think the change needed must include the people of Palestine: stopping filling their heads and their children's with hateful antisemitism and hatred of the West; renouncing a fundamentalist version of their religion that keeps them poor, uneducated, and misogynistic; and a commitment to become peaceful neighbors and partners with the people of Israel rather than committing themselves to the full on destruction of that state and its people.
A people that went through the Holocaust in recent memory aren't going to respond well to the above.
How you get either side to give an inch on these reasonable demands (for both) is beyond me.
By every objective measure, Israel is a better place to live, work, be educated, and raise a family than Gaza. Gaza took money intended for humanitarian purposes and built fortifications and obtained weapons. This is a problem. Solving it will take strong single minded US leadership. We not only don’t get it, we are actively working to perpetuate the destructive stats quo, as @manichi often points out.
absolutely, give them an alternative to their current "leadership."
but foremost for Israel, as the powerful liberal democracy in region, stop the cycle of grievances. stop expansion. give Palestine border integrity, some actual autonomy, and a real seat at the international table.
insecure peoples make their neighbors insecure. stupid cycles repeat. story as old as time.
I don't think the U.S. can solve it. Nor do I think it's our problem to solve.
I'm all for helping if someone comes up with a great solution, though.
I think we had the solution when Clinton was in office. I don't think we will get back there anytime soon.
ya, pretty amazing how lifestyles can change so drastically when you cross a border. one side has military and economic security (plus political cover) provided for by outside benefactors and the other is kept stateless with little control over their day-to-day lives.
amazing.
Only Palestinians can stop the killing in Israel & Gaza.
There's a bit more to it than that, no? Israel wasn't gifted a dominant military state, a secure economy, or a high standard of living. They've worked hard for that. They deserve some credit, no? And the Palestinians might be held back by their history, but CoH is right that instead of using billions in aid money to build a functioning economy or state, they've spent it on tunnels, rockets, etc. not to defend against an Israeli incursion, but to continually shoot upon and now invade, murder, mutilate, rape, and torture innocent civilians.
If ethnic cleansing was the Israeli's top priority in Gaza it would have been completed by now.
it seems like a given that a successful society has worked hard to get where it is, right? and even an unsuccessful one might be working hard too?
but in a very real sense, Israel was gifted a dominant military, economy, and lifestyle. Israel would not exist without the direct support of super powers. it would not be rich without partnership with western companies. not sure this can be disputed. the British and Americans absolutely wanted a non-Arab ally in the region.
welp, not sure the avg Palestinian was given a vote or much say in where aid money was going.
I think a big part of the tit-for-tat on this thread stems from two beliefs: the Warhawks think all Palestinians are Hamas and the Peaceniks think there is some but not total overlap in a complicated relationship between leadership and the governed.
If there is one day a fully independent and autonomous Palestinian state it will have to be earned through decades of good faith from the Palestinian governing body (whoever it is) and its citizens.
Imagine where Gaza might be if starting in 2005 they ceased attacks on Israel. They'd probably have near complete if not complete control over their own imports/ exports. An airport. Control of their own airspace. Maybe even taking steps towards a military.
Full autonomy and all the typical rights of a nation state will have to be earned, the Israeli's will never grant it overnight. Nor should they.
Likewise, BiBi needs to go and an Israeli government that will take a good faith approach to Palestinian Statehood will also need to be maintained over decades.
COH's worldview terrifies me. absolute horror show but if I ever had to go to trial for a crime I actually committed, I'd want him next to me, whispering my lies back to me. I think that would be a reassuring feeling.
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One of the fundamental disagreements I have with modern liberals is that they tend to see many disputes as a clash between oppressed and oppressors. (Thank you Howard Zinn) The Gaza Middle East situation is a perfect example. Israel is called colonizers ( stupid on its face) oppressors and more. Those who support Gaza overlook the savagery and barbarism rooted in Palestinian Jew hate and instead only see them as oppressed. As far as I am concerned, Hitler and Palestinians (and Iran too) are cut from the same cloth. The difference is that nobody saw Hitler as a leader of oppressed people.
Every single restriction Israel imposed is a reaction from terror and butchering. Palestinians being backward and even oppressed in their daily lives is 100% on them. Being oppressed does not make them right or even deserving sympathy, especially when their plight is self-induced.
Jerusalem doesn’t decide, people do. I’ll ask again, why wasn’t it accepted & put in place?
70% of Palestinians support not only Hamas, they support 10/7.
JERUSALEM, Dec 13 (Reuters) - Almost three in four Palestinians believe the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas on Israel was correct, and the ensuing Gaza war has lifted support for the Islamist group both there and in the West Bank, a survey from a respected Palestinian polling institute found.
This is astounding. What is even more astounding is that Palestinian/Hamas support in the US comes from the Democrats and the left.luckily we're not talking about your fundamental disagreements with political rivals.
Hitler and the Palestinians the same? for f*cks sake, even the babies? lol
no, not every Israeli restriction on Palestinians was a response to aggression. where the hell did you get that idea from? you get less serious with every post.
yes, of course, the oppressed deserve oppression; that's a cornerstone of Liberal (big L) Democracy. you nailed it.
Why does it terrify you? Do you think being oppressed makes one moral, just, and deserving of support no matter what?
astounding? they've been led to believe Israel is the root of all their troubles. who is disputing that?
Because the people couldn't agree on Jerusalem. Both sides demanded full sovereignty. That's not possible.
Wow, some real compelling arguments here.🤣
Hitler & a majority of Palestinians want to see Jews killed. I’d say that makes it a fair comparison.
While not every Israeli restriction is a response to aggression, they most certainly are a response to the threat of aggression. They should protect their citizens from terrorists at all costs.
Only Palestinians can stop the killing in Israel & Gaza.
Israel is a sovereign nation, Palestine is not. The Palestinians aren’t interested in a state, they want from the river to the sea, including Jerusalem, which means the irradication of Israelis. Are you, with a straight face, going to suggest that the Israelis should give Jerusalem to the Palestinians? You’re such a disingenuous **** sometimes…🙄
Taking the side of the oppressed just cuz they are weak makes no sense, yet that is what you are doing. The 10/7 savagery is not the result of oppression, it’s the result of instilled hate. Our pro Palestinian positions do not show sympathy for the weak, it shows support for hate and unspeakable atrocities. 33 Americans slaughtered . Many at a concert. A dozen kidnapped and then abused. 70% of Palestinians support that.
This is the part that's bullshit. You may or may not think it's a good idea, but it's entirely up to Israel whether or not to stop killing people. They get to make the choice. That's how action works. The actor decides whether or not to act. We can agree or disagree on the propriety of his action, but don't pass his acts off on someone else. He's still the actor.
No, I don't think Israel should give Jerusalem to the Palestinians, and I never suggested they should. You asked why they couldn't agree, and I answered. Maybe you should slow the f*ck down and have a serious conversation.
no, it's the basic lack of knowledge that scares me. Israel and Palestine didn't exist for you before 10/7 and it wouldn't matter to you if it wasn't political fodder in the US now.
you thought the pro-palestine movement started with 10/7. you can't think of a single Israeli transgression. spooky stuff.
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