Indy Star - Mike Woodson Uses Bench Like an NBA coach - IU's 2nd Unit Key to Big 10 Title Hopes

[rikki-tikka-tava]

Mike Woodson uses bench like an NBA coach, and IU's 2nd unit is key to Big 10 title hopes

Sometimes to his fans’ frustration, Mike Woodson held tight through most of last season to an established second line.

www.indystar.com

 

[B1G_Fan]

Mike Woodson uses bench like an NBA coach, and IU's 2nd unit is key to Big 10 title hopes

Sometimes to his fans’ frustration, Mike Woodson held tight through most of last season to an established second line.

www.indystar.com

The starters are still better players and should be out there significantly more than the bench. This was (in my opinion) his worst coaching characteristic last year. We will see how it works out with a more talented bench, but I’m not a fan of 5 subs on the floor at the same time.

 

[asindc]

The starters are still better players and should be out there significantly more than the bench. This was (in my opinion) his worst coaching characteristic last year. We will see how it works out with a more talented bench, but I’m not a fan of 5 subs on the floor at the same time.

Last season, the starters did play more than the subs. All the starters played at least 24 minutes a game. Trey was the only sub who played 20 minutes a game.

 

[rikki-tikka-tava]

The starters are still better players and should be out there significantly more than the bench. This was (in my opinion) his worst coaching characteristic last year. We will see how it works out with a more talented bench, but I’m not a fan of 5 subs on the floor at the same time.

Don't recall five at one time but not to say it didn't happen. What I did like is that during crunch time late he pretty much relied on the same guys - TJD, Race, X, Rob and Trey, his 'guts' line-up. Not as if he didn't know what his best rotation was, am inclined to assume any apparent method/madness is geared toward melding personnel into a Team that can make a stretch run.

 

[B1G_Fan]

Don't recall five at one time but not to say it didn't happen. What I did like is that during crunch time late he pretty much relied on the same guys - TJD, Race, X, Rob and Trey, his 'guts' line-up. Not as if he didn't know what his best rotation was, am inclined to assume any apparent method/madness is geared toward melding personnel into a Team that can make a stretch run.

It happened pretty much every game that all 10 guys were available. Woodson would have the subs (RP, Bates, Galloway, Geronimo, and Durr ) out there around the 12 minute mark, and the other team would go on a big run.

 

[T.M.P.]

Don't recall five at one time but not to say it didn't happen

It didn't except rarely and only for a few minutes.

 

[rikki-tikka-tava]

It happened pretty much every game that all 10 guys were available. Woodson would have the subs (RP, Bates, Galloway, Geronimo, and Durr ) out there around the 12 minute mark, and the other team would go on a big run.

Possible that what was happening in practice wasn't translating against unfamiliar foes. No idea, but a lot about this Season I don't expect to resemble the last.

 

[B1G_Fan]

Possible that what was happening in practice wasn't translating against unfamiliar foes. No idea, but a lot about this Season I don't expect to resemble the last.

You would think by the end of the year they would make adjustments even if it were working well in practice...

Bottom-line, our bench was atrocious last year and should have been shortened significantly. Our starters were fine. We should have a better bench this year.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

You would think by the end of the year they would make adjustments even if it were working well in practice...

Bottom-line, our bench was atrocious last year and should have been shortened significantly. Our starters were fine. We should have a better bench this year.

Much better.

We will see rotation players 6 - 9 a lot.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

It didn't except rarely and only for a few minutes.

Only recall it happening about three times, but it isn't like it was something I wrote down.

 

[Jssanto]

Mike Woodson uses bench like an NBA coach, and IU's 2nd unit is key to Big 10 title hopes

Sometimes to his fans’ frustration, Mike Woodson held tight through most of last season to an established second line.

www.indystar.com

Just getting ready to read this.
First, thanks for posting and second, maybe it will answer some of the questions about substitution patterns.

 

[Hatchets7times]

8 -9 guy's in heavy rotation during conference.
And in a big game like an elite eight game.
Probably 7..
Woodson hasn't shown me his in game feel is great..imo
He'll get away with some things this yr because.. He has a pretty deep pool of talent..

 

[dbmhoosier]

If TJD, Race, X, and JHS aren't getting 30 minutes a game our staff is completely clueless.

 

[T.M.P.]

out there around the 12 minute mark, and the other team would go on a big run.

Pure hyperbole ..

 

[B1G_Fan]

Pure hyperbole ..

We had this argument last year and 3 games in a row I pointed out each time the subs were all on the court at the same time. You were wrong then, and you are wrong now.

IU used 81 different lineup combinations last year. The lineup of Bates, Durr, Galloway, Geronimo, and RP was the 7th most used lineup combination of those 81.

Numbers never lie.

 

[13thman]

Mike Woodson uses bench like an NBA coach, and IU's 2nd unit is key to Big 10 title hopes

Sometimes to his fans’ frustration, Mike Woodson held tight through most of last season to an established second line.

www.indystar.com

I would prefer the title to be "Mike Woodson uses bench as a motivator."
There's enough talent here they can fight for minutes.

 

[Victorbmyboy]

We had this argument last year and 3 games in a row I pointed out each time the subs were all on the court at the same time. You were wrong then, and you are wrong now.

IU used 81 different lineup combinations last year. The lineup of Bates, Durr, Galloway, Geronimo, and RP was the 7th most used lineup combination of those 81.

Numbers never lie.

Except the gap between the most used and the seventh most is a big gap. I hate those stats because they don’t tell the whole story. What percentage of time where each different group was used?

 

[Victorbmyboy]

I would prefer the title to be "Mike Woodson uses bench as a motivator."
There's enough talent here they can fight for minutes.

The practice dummies are no longer stiffs.

 

[snarlcakes]

The starters are still better players and should be out there significantly more than the bench. This was (in my opinion) his worst coaching characteristic last year. We will see how it works out with a more talented bench, but I’m not a fan of 5 subs on the floor at the same time.

I agree the starters should play majority of the minutes in college. If they aren’t it usually means your starters aren’t that good. Not to mention the season and games are shorter. And the players are younger.

I’d cut Woodson slack for last year substitutions. TJD was our only starter who deserved 30+ minutes for the entire year. X did as the season went on, but had his struggles the first half of the season. Race was solid, but Geronimo deserved every minute he played(and some) in my opinion. Kopp and Stewart had their struggles throughout the entire season and shouldn’t have been playing the minutes they did.

 

[TomEric4756]

Don't recall five at one time but not to say it didn't happen. What I did like is that during crunch time late he pretty much relied on the same guys - TJD, Race, X, Rob and Trey, his 'guts' line-up. Not as if he didn't know what his best rotation was, am inclined to assume any apparent method/madness is geared toward melding personnel into a Team that can make a stretch run.

It did happen in some early games, but there wasn’t enough 2nd 5 cohesion to make it work.
With last year’s sub’s showing more seasoning, and the more talented freshmen class, it could work this year.

It can’t be as good as Earl ‘The Pearl’ Monroe leading the 5 subs in relief of Walt ‘Clyde that Glide’ Frazier, for the 60’s Knicks, but 5 minutes of wind sprints on the opponents legs will be enough to make halftime too short to recover for the start of the second half. It also requires opponents to know two sets of scouting reports.

 

[B1G_Fan]

Except the gap between the most used and the seventh most is a big gap. I hate those stats because they don’t tell the whole story. What percentage of time where each different group was used?

Offensive Possessions by lineup:

1. 646 (these are starters and can't be judged the same for obvious reasons)
2. 84
3. 82
4. 79
5. 55
6. 52
7. 39 (This is the all sub group)
...
81. 4

Even though those 5 players didn't play in every game, they still managed to be the 7th most used combination of the 81 lineup combinations used last year.

This proves that there were 5 subs on the court often last year. Those that say it only happened every once in awhile are wrong. The numbers don't lie.

 

[B1G_Fan]

I agree the starters should be play majority of the minutes in college. If they aren’t it usually means your starters aren’t that good. Not to mention the season and games are shorter. And the players are younger.

I’d cut Woodson slack for last year substitutions. TJD was our only starter who deserved 30+ minutes for the entire year. X did as the season went on, but had his struggles the first half of the seasons Race was solid, but Geronimo deserved every minute he played and some, in my opinion. Kopp and Stewart had their struggles throughout the entire season and shouldn’t have been playing the minutes they did.

Our starters last year were solid. We didn't need to play 10 players. Durr was atrocious and not close to a Big Ten player. His minutes could have easily gone to Geronimo.

Woodson gets no slack. He's responsible for the team that's assembled. We will find out a lot about his coaching ability this year. There are no valid excuses this year. The roster is there. The Big Ten is significantly down. Anything worse than 3rd in the Big Ten is a failure.

 

[Victorbmyboy]

Offensive Possessions by lineup:

1. 646 (these are starters and can't be judged the same for obvious reasons)
2. 84
3. 82
4. 79
5. 55
6. 52
7. 39 (This is the all sub group)
...
81. 4

Even though those 5 players didn't play in every game, they still managed to be the 7th most used combination of the 81 lineup combinations used last year.

This proves that there were 5 subs on the court often last year. Those that say it only happened every once in awhile are wrong. The numbers don't lie.

Now break it down by games. Im betting it’s still skewed by those early games. He played with lineups a lot. Then take out the suspension game. This still doesn’t tell the whole story.

 

[B1G_Fan]

Now break it down by games. They m betting it’s still skewed by those early games. He played with lineups a lot m. Then take out the suspension game. This still doesn’t tell the whole story.

Well... I can actually guarantee you that the early games did not skew the data. Galloway only played in the 1st 3 games of the year prior to being out until January 6th. In those 3 games he played a combined 30 minutes.

The suspension game is not included in this data. Durr was suspended for that game as well as the following two. This lineup couldn't play in any game that one of these guys did not play. That means the most games these guys played all together was 19. 16 of those being conference games, BTT games, or NCAA Tournament games.

 

[snarlcakes]

Our starters last year were solid. We didn't need to play 10 players. Durr was atrocious and not close to a Big Ten player. His minutes could have easily gone to Geronimo.

Woodson gets no slack. He's responsible for the team that's assembled. We will find out a lot about his coaching ability this year. There are no valid excuses this year. The roster is there. The Big Ten is significantly down. Anything worse than 3rd in the Big Ten is a failure.

Considering it was his first year, he gets some slack. Durr averaged 7 minutes a game and played a total of 210 minutes. 24 minutes were against Purdue when TJD was in foul trouble and we needed someone to defend Edey. The rest of the season he played 10 or more minutes 6 times. 4 of those games were against cupcakes and 1 of them was against Illinois who had Kofi and kicked our a#% that game.

You’re crazy if you think Kopp and Stewart were solid starters. I agree with your standards for this season.

 

[B1G_Fan]

Considering it was his first year, he gets some slack. Durr averaged 7 minutes a game and played a total of 210 minutes. 24 minutes were against Purdue when TJD was in foul trouble and we needed someone to defend Edey. The rest of the season he played 10 or more minutes 6 times. 4 of those games were against cupcakes and 1 of them was against Illinois who had Kofi and kicked our a#% that game.

You’re crazy if you think Kopp and Stewart were solid starters. I agree with your standards for this season.

Woodson seems pretty stubborn, so we will see.

Durr cost us some games. Phinisee did as well. Our bench was atrocious.

Did I say Kopp and Stewart were individually quality starters? I said our starters held there own and often secured us a great lead. Our starters were not the issue last year.

 

[rocketo]

Offensive Possessions by lineup:

1. 646 (these are starters and can't be judged the same for obvious reasons)
2. 84
3. 82
4. 79
5. 55
6. 52
7. 39 (This is the all sub group)
...
81. 4

Even though those 5 players didn't play in every game, they still managed to be the 7th most used combination of the 81 lineup combinations used last year.

This proves that there were 5 subs on the court often last year. Those that say it only happened every once in awhile are wrong. The numbers don't lie.

So out of the 1,000+ possessions during the season, you are hanging your hat on 39 of them… Got it.

 

[B1G_Fan]

So out of the 1,000+ possessions during the season, you are hanging your hat on 39 of them… Got it.

646 came from the starters. Games were lost in those 39 possessions. Durr was a horrible. Phinisee was close to horrible too. There was no excuse to play Durr outside of foul trouble.

The good news is that there should always be at least one starter on the court this year. A coach wouldn’t be dumb enough to have both XJ and JHS off the court at the same time… right?

 

[TR32]

I'm going with B1G_fan here. He is right. A key example is the Wyoming tourney game. All 5 second unit guys were in together.

Woodson do that again this year? Yes, I think he absolutely will. He says "second unit" because that is what he means.

Galloway, Geronimo, Reneau, Bates, Duncomb is most likely going to be that group this year. And I wouldn't be surprised to see Banks get some time with that group as well.

 

[rocketo]

646 came from the starters. Games were lost in those 39 possessions. Durr was a horrible. Phinisee was close to horrible too. There was no excuse to play Durr outside of foul trouble.

The good news is that there should always be at least one starter on the court this year. A coach wouldn’t be dumb enough to have both XJ and JHS off the court at the same time… right?

Durr and RP won us the Purdue game. Phinisee was a multi-year starter at a position where we had an option of either he or KL. We lacked depth, and again, you are going to hang your hat on a lineup that saw less than 4/10ths of one percent of the possessions? You are stretching

 

[tru123dt]

Johnson or JHS needs to be in the game at all times IMO. Or at least 99% of the time.

 

[B1G_Fan]

Durr and RP won us the Purdue game. Phinisee was a multi-year starter at a position where we had an option of either he or KL. We lacked depth, and again, you are going to hang your hat on a lineup that saw less than 4/10ths of one percent of the possessions? You are stretching

Durr and RP lost us more games than they won. They were crap players. RP’s career IU record and stats prove that.

That wasn’t the only lineup that that had all subs. It was the 7th most used lineup. The 6 lineups ahead of it included all starters or 4/5 starters. You and @T.M.P. have continuously tried to argue that Woodson never has 5 subs in the game at the same time, and you’ve been proven wrong time and time again.

 

[Brewskie]

So out of the 1,000+ possessions during the season, you are hanging your hat on 39 of them… Got it.

1.02 possessions per game.

 

[B1G_Fan]

1.02 possessions per game.

That lineup only played in 12 games together.

 

[frikkenfrakken]

Offensive Possessions by lineup:

1. 646 (these are starters and can't be judged the same for obvious reasons)
2. 84
3. 82
4. 79
5. 55
6. 52
7. 39 (This is the all sub group)
...
81. 4

Even though those 5 players didn't play in every game, they still managed to be the 7th most used combination of the 81 lineup combinations used last year.

This proves that there were 5 subs on the court often last year. Those that say it only happened every once in awhile are wrong. The numbers don't lie.

39 offensive possessions per season is not "often."

 

[B1G_Fan]

39 offensive possessions per season is not "often."

7th most used lineup in only 12 games.

 

[rocketo]

Durr and RP lost us more games than they won. They were crap players. RP’s career IU record and stats prove that.

That wasn’t the only lineup that that had all subs. It was the 7th most used lineup. The 6 lineups ahead of it included all starters or 4/5 starters. You and @T.M.P. have continuously tried to argue that Woodson never has 5 subs in the game at the same time, and you’ve been proven wrong time and time again.

I never tried to argue that he never had all subs in. Show me THAT post of mine. Just one of them since I must have many. Fact is, the count is inconsequential and isn’t a fault of Woodson’s IMO. I’m sure he continues to learn every day and even learn more about his team every day.

 

[B1G_Fan]

I never tried to argue that he never had all subs in. Show me THAT post of mine. Just one of them since I must have many. Fact is, the count is inconsequential and isn’t a fault of Woodson’s IMO. I’m sure he continues to learn every day and even learn more about his team every day.

It was last year around tournament time. You were one of the guys for sure.

The count is not inconsequential. In only 12 games played together they were the 7th most used lineup. Durr and Phinisee were horrible. Durr has a -21 +/- for the season. RP only had a +9 +/-. Both of those are horrid.

 

[rocketo]

It was last year around tournament time. You were one of the guys for sure.

The count is not inconsequential. In only 12 games played together they were the 7th most used lineup. Durr and Phinisee were horrible. Durr has a -21 +/- for the season. RP only had a +9 +/-. Both of those are horrid.

That’s what I thought…

 

[B1G_Fan]

That’s what I thought…

No point spending time looking up posts that don’t mean anything. It was the same time you were bragging about being Kenya Hunter’s neighbor.