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Have you challenged your whiteness yet?

From scratch, or in response to whatever it is in your head that made you start this thread with "oh boy?"

BlackSpitefulAnhinga-max-1mb.gif
 
Am I limited to Barnor Hesse's "White Identities" or can I talk about other competing concepts of whiteness?

Also, can I wait until the game is over?

I too am curious what you mean by whiteness and no, the offense will stall out under 8 minutes and we’ll drop it late or in overtime.
 
Okay, if it doesn't go to OT, I should be sober enough to do that. I'll see you in 30 minutes. Or not.
I’m all in on such a discussion. Please note I’m only 4 x 3 Floyd’s in so caveat emptor. I’ll send my first volley by stating that the Hesse “graph” is ludicrously elementary and probably worthy of having a PhD title stripped from him.

on edit: yes- I have my 3 Floyd’s imported to my blue state. Sue me.
 
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I’m all in on such a discussion. Please note I’m only 4 x 3 Floyd’s in so caveat emptor. I’ll send my first volley by stating that the Hesse “graph” is ludicrously elementary and probably worthy of having a PhD title stripped from him.

on edit: yes- I have my 3 Floyd’s imported to my blue state. Sue me.
My first section will not be kind to Hesse, but I will acknowledge the validity of what his graph attempts to do. That will be my only preview.
 
My first section will not be kind to Hesse, but I will acknowledge the validity of what his graph attempts to do. That will be my only preview.
Ok but let’s start soon or table to tomorrow. I’m in EST and I’ve got meeting starting at 7.

I too can acknowledge his attempt to create a framework but it’s a bigoted framework and leaves out one “type” of whiteness - which is probably the most common type of whiteness.
 
Ok but let’s start soon or table to tomorrow. I’m in EST and I’ve got meeting starting at 7.

I too can acknowledge his attempt to create a framework but it’s a bigoted framework and leaves out one “type” of whiteness - which is probably the most common type of whiteness.
I don't think he leaves it out. I think he subsumes it. But more soon.

My only meeting tomorrow is at 3 PM, so, bully for you.
 
Okay, so here's the deal.

First, whether I'm talking about Hesse or my own ideas, we need to start with the understanding that whiteness is something that happens to you. It's not a choice. Most identities are self-identities these days. You identify as a religion. Or not. You identify as LGBT. Or not. Etc. But with race, you don't really get to do that. Society identifies you, and if you try to change your identity, woe is you (see: Rachel Dolezal). So whiteness isn't something we choose or take. It's generally something that is bestowed upon us.

Second, on Hesse's formulation of white identity.

I think it's fundamentally flawed, mostly because it conflates the vast majority of white people in its first two groups, and then draws fine lines between the remaining minority. I think there are miles of difference between his White Supremacists and White Voyeurs, and the idea that they should be right next to each other on one end of the spectrum, while there are six other variations on white on the other side is just plain silly to me.

But, I do think it's valuable to think about simply because it represents a non-white view of what whiteness means, and if we are going to talk about whiteness, I don't think we should limit ourselves to how white people view it. We need to also understand how non-white people view whiteness, and so Hesse's framework is worthy of examination for that reason alone. If, in fact, it turns out his formulation accurately represents how a significant number of non-white people view whiteness, then it is very worthy. I think it's wrong and silly, but I'm white. I have a certain perspective of whiteness very different from non-white people. If most non-white people don't think his formulation is wrong and silly, then it is important for me to understand why they view whiteness so differently than I do.

Third, on my formulation of whiteness.

I think in America whiteness is mostly a binary state. Either you are white, or you are not. We don't really have different levels of white. People of mixed ancestry are generally considered non-white. Someone with a black mother and white father might be called mixed, and he might be called black, but he's very unlikely to be called white. He's probably more likely to be called "light-skinned black" than he is "white."

So whiteness is a very special club that you can't join. You're either born in it, or you're not. The real study of whiteness in America should be less about the identities Hesse delineates, and more about understanding the various advantages and disadvantages (mostly advantages) society confers upon you after determining that you are a member of the club. The principal in question (although I struggle to believe he really understands this himself) raises an important question in bringing up Hesse's formulation, but it's not about the different white identities. It's really about how white people respond to the fact of their own whiteness. To me, the primary question is, "Do we recognize the advantages given us on account of our whiteness?" If we do that, then everything else becomes somehow easier.

This isn't to say that whiteness determines everything. There are other things that society or circumstance push onto our shoulders that matter, too. As Bulworth said, "White people got more in common with colored people than they do with rich people." So we have to talk about all of these things in context, and not let one single difference dominate the entire conversation. But one thing we absolutely should not do is pretend it isn't real. Whiteness is a real thing, it's something that we as individuals don't get to choose, and whether or not we possess it absolutely has real effects on our lives.

/serve
 
Okay, so here's the deal.

First, whether I'm talking about Hesse or my own ideas, we need to start with the understanding that whiteness is something that happens to you. It's not a choice. Most identities are self-identities these days. You identify as a religion. Or not. You identify as LGBT. Or not. Etc. But with race, you don't really get to do that. Society identifies you, and if you try to change your identity, woe is you (see: Rachel Dolezal). So whiteness isn't something we choose or take. It's generally something that is bestowed upon us.

Second, on Hesse's formulation of white identity.

I think it's fundamentally flawed, mostly because it conflates the vast majority of white people in its first two groups, and then draws fine lines between the remaining minority. I think there are miles of difference between his White Supremacists and White Voyeurs, and the idea that they should be right next to each other on one end of the spectrum, while there are six other variations on white on the other side is just plain silly to me.

But, I do think it's valuable to think about simply because it represents a non-white view of what whiteness means, and if we are going to talk about whiteness, I don't think we should limit ourselves to how white people view it. We need to also understand how non-white people view whiteness, and so Hesse's framework is worthy of examination for that reason alone. If, in fact, it turns out his formulation accurately represents how a significant number of non-white people view whiteness, then it is very worthy. I think it's wrong and silly, but I'm white. I have a certain perspective of whiteness very different from non-white people. If most non-white people don't think his formulation is wrong and silly, then it is important for me to understand why they view whiteness so differently than I do.

Third, on my formulation of whiteness.

I think in America whiteness is mostly a binary state. Either you are white, or you are not. We don't really have different levels of white. People of mixed ancestry are generally considered non-white. Someone with a black mother and white father might be called mixed, and he might be called black, but he's very unlikely to be called white. He's probably more likely to be called "light-skinned black" than he is "white."

So whiteness is a very special club that you can't join. You're either born in it, or you're not. The real study of whiteness in America should be less about the identities Hesse delineates, and more about understanding the various advantages and disadvantages (mostly advantages) society confers upon you after determining that you are a member of the club. The principal in question (although I struggle to believe he really understands this himself) raises an important question in bringing up Hesse's formulation, but it's not about the different white identities. It's really about how white people respond to the fact of their own whiteness. To me, the primary question is, "Do we recognize the advantages given us on account of our whiteness?" If we do that, then everything else becomes somehow easier.

This isn't to say that whiteness determines everything. There are other things that society or circumstance push onto our shoulders that matter, too. As Bulworth said, "White people got more in common with colored people than they do with rich people." So we have to talk about all of these things in context, and not let one single difference dominate the entire conversation. But one thing we absolutely should not do is pretend it isn't real. Whiteness is a real thing, it's something that we as individuals don't get to choose, and whether or not we possess it absolutely has real effects on our lives.

/serve
See? @DANC this is what Goat brings to the table. I can’t write this well - probably due to two factors: that I use mobile and that I’m not smart enough.

I think we’re - for better or worse - nearly aligned so I guess the discussion is capital B boring. On your discussion about a half black / half white dude being called “light skinned black” over white - it’s been my experience that being called black is worn as a badge of pride over anything else and to that end I have no problem with that. Average black and average white culture are very different from each other and if one vibes more on one side over the other then to each their own.

I agree the only way the Hesse scale makes sense is if it accurately portrays consensus portrayal of whiteness from a large set of African American opinion. If it does I’m instantly sad - because to your point - the average white person who just wants to love thy neighbor and live their life is somehow lost in the mix. Also - and I’ll say this to my grave - just because a large group of people “believe” something to be true doesn’t mean that it is true or if something needs to bend / change. This is true of the way African Americans perceive their relationship to the monolithic “police” or of the way African Americans perceive whiteness.

Whiteness, as you state, is something we are born with but it needn’t be worn in shame. We as humans should strive to improve our lot in life and of those around us. If that means, to guys like Hesse, that we should adopt a mantra or a tenet that renders one more “woke” than it does overlap with reality, then I’ll take a hard pass. But in the meantime I will do my best to be a combination of a white abolitionist and a realist - based on evidentiary outcomes - whenever said combat power needs to be applied.
 
See? @DANC this is what Goat brings to the table. I can’t write this well - probably due to two factors: that I use mobile and that I’m not smart enough.

I think we’re - for better or worse - nearly aligned so I guess the discussion is capital B boring. On your discussion about a half black / half white dude being called “light skinned black” over white - it’s been my experience that being called black is worn as a badge of pride over anything else and to that end I have no problem with that. Average black and average white culture are very different from each other and if one vibes more on one side over the other then to each their own.

I agree the only way the Hesse scale makes sense is if it accurately portrays consensus portrayal of whiteness from a large set of African American opinion. If it does I’m instantly sad - because to your point - the average white person who just wants to love thy neighbor and live their life is somehow lost in the mix. Also - and I’ll say this to my grave - just because a large group of people “believe” something to be true doesn’t mean that it is true or if something needs to bend / change. This is true of the way African Americans perceive their relationship to the monolithic “police” or of the way African Americans perceive whiteness.

Whiteness, as you state, is something we are born with but it needn’t be worn in shame. We as humans should strive to improve our lot in life and of those around us. If that means, to guys like Hesse, that we should adopt a mantra or a tenet that renders one more “woke” than it does overlap with reality, then I’ll take a hard pass. But in the meantime I will do my best to be a combination of a white abolitionist and a realist - based on evidentiary outcomes - whenever said combat power needs to be applied.
I think we are very much in agreement on virtually everything. Our only difference appears to be that you lean more to the optimist end of the spectrum than I do, which means one of us is probably more ignorant than the other, but it's impossible to say which from any objective standpoint, and it's quite possible that we simply both need to continue to strive to learn more, and we'll find ourselves together in the same place.

Edit: spelling
 
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Okay, so here's the deal.

First, whether I'm talking about Hesse or my own ideas, we need to start with the understanding that whiteness is something that happens to you. It's not a choice. Most identities are self-identities these days. You identify as a religion. Or not. You identify as LGBT. Or not. Etc. But with race, you don't really get to do that. Society identifies you, and if you try to change your identity, woe is you (see: Rachel Dolezal). So whiteness isn't something we choose or take. It's generally something that is bestowed upon us.

Second, on Hesse's formulation of white identity.

I think it's fundamentally flawed, mostly because it conflates the vast majority of white people in its first two groups, and then draws fine lines between the remaining minority. I think there are miles of difference between his White Supremacists and White Voyeurs, and the idea that they should be right next to each other on one end of the spectrum, while there are six other variations on white on the other side is just plain silly to me.

But, I do think it's valuable to think about simply because it represents a non-white view of what whiteness means, and if we are going to talk about whiteness, I don't think we should limit ourselves to how white people view it. We need to also understand how non-white people view whiteness, and so Hesse's framework is worthy of examination for that reason alone. If, in fact, it turns out his formulation accurately represents how a significant number of non-white people view whiteness, then it is very worthy. I think it's wrong and silly, but I'm white. I have a certain perspective of whiteness very different from non-white people. If most non-white people don't think his formulation is wrong and silly, then it is important for me to understand why they view whiteness so differently than I do.

Third, on my formulation of whiteness.

I think in America whiteness is mostly a binary state. Either you are white, or you are not. We don't really have different levels of white. People of mixed ancestry are generally considered non-white. Someone with a black mother and white father might be called mixed, and he might be called black, but he's very unlikely to be called white. He's probably more likely to be called "light-skinned black" than he is "white."

So whiteness is a very special club that you can't join. You're either born in it, or you're not. The real study of whiteness in America should be less about the identities Hesse delineates, and more about understanding the various advantages and disadvantages (mostly advantages) society confers upon you after determining that you are a member of the club. The principal in question (although I struggle to believe he really understands this himself) raises an important question in bringing up Hesse's formulation, but it's not about the different white identities. It's really about how white people respond to the fact of their own whiteness. To me, the primary question is, "Do we recognize the advantages given us on account of our whiteness?" If we do that, then everything else becomes somehow easier.

This isn't to say that whiteness determines everything. There are other things that society or circumstance push onto our shoulders that matter, too. As Bulworth said, "White people got more in common with colored people than they do with rich people." So we have to talk about all of these things in context, and not let one single difference dominate the entire conversation. But one thing we absolutely should not do is pretend it isn't real. Whiteness is a real thing, it's something that we as individuals don't get to choose, and whether or not we possess it absolutely has real effects on our lives.

/serve
Also, I kept trying to come up with "gradations" as one of my various synonyms for "variations" in this post, and I couldn't. My brain only came up with "degradations." That probably says something about my subconscious.
 
Fire that principle, ASAP.

This sorry mindset of progressivism needs to die an immediate death!! Politicizing people's skin color is bull butter and will lead to blood in the streets. That blood won't be the sons and daughters of the progressive lawmakers stirting the stink pot, it'll be the common man, it always is.

We must remember that this country is roughly 75% white. Three out of every four people in this country are frigging white people!! Should we be surprised that this group of people owns the power and wealth in this country??? Don't let common sense get in the way, though!!!
 
Fire that principle, ASAP.

This sorry mindset of progressivism needs to die an immediate death!! Politicizing people's skin color is bull butter and will lead to blood in the streets. That blood won't be the sons and daughters of the progressive lawmakers stirting the stink pot, it'll be the common man, it always is.

We must remember that this country is roughly 75% white. Three out of every four people in this country are frigging white people!! Should we be surprised that this group of people owns the power and wealth in this country??? Don't let common sense get in the way, though!!!
This post would look good on a recruitment poster.
 
Here's the problem with the linked article; to actually believe the article has any credibility, you first have to believe that white people are the big bad wolf. You have to believe that white people are actively snuffing out minority opportunities.

I don't buy it, and I'll NEVER apologize for being a proud white man!!
 
Well, this escalated quickly.

So, what point should we go back to, in regards to status quo? Any specific dates in mind?
You believe that white people are a road block to people of color. It's false, a complete fabrication that the democrats are pushing down America's throat.
 
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Here's the problem with the linked article; to actually believe the article has any credibility, you first have to believe that white people are the big bad wolf. You have to believe that white people are actively snuffing out minority opportunities.

I don't buy it, and I'll NEVER apologize for being a proud white man!!
TBH, I didn't read the linked article...your reply is what caught my eye. So, since you are all for the status quo, and you obviously are unhappy with current events, what status quo would you like to reestablish? At what point in our history would you feel most comfortable?
 
TBH, I didn't read the linked article...your reply is what caught my eye. So, since you are all for the status quo, and you obviously are unhappy with current events, what status quo would you like to reestablish? At what point in our history would you feel most comfortable?
I live in the present, the here and now. I'm good with the present. Now that you've brought this to my attention, people of color have more opportunities today than ever before. Seems like the left is fabricating issues to win elections...
 
just because a large group of people “believe” something to be true doesn’t mean that it is true or if something needs to bend / change. This is true of the way African Americans perceive their relationship to the monolithic “police” or of the way African Americans perceive whiteness.

"believe" is often "want" to be true simply because it provides a potential benefit immediately or down the road. An awful lot of false narratives are born this way.
 
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