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Great article from the Atlantic on what Isis really is and wants

That is good

thanks for posting it. A couple of observations.

Anybody with a computer and the ability to point and click understands that ISIS grew out of al-Qaeda; and al-Qaueda grew out of the notion that the Muslim areas of the world were not "Islamic enough" which grew out of the Islamic resurgence of the last part of the 20th century which grew out of a number of factors including Israel and the humiliating military defeats at the hands of the Jews. At the same time, a Pakistani Cleric (whose name I can't find) provided the intellectual and religious fundamental teaching for the resurgence. The evolution of the resurgence is more fundamental and more violent as time moves along.

The first point worth underlining from Wood's piece is this:
We have misunderstood the nature of the Islamic State in at least two ways. First, we tend to see jihadism as monolithic, and to apply the logic of al‑Qaeda to an organization that has decisively eclipsed it. The Islamic State supporters I spoke with still refer to Osama bin Laden as "Sheikh Osama," a title of honor. But jihadism has evolved since al-Qaeda's heyday, from about 1998 to 2003, and many jihadists disdain the group's priorities and current leadership.

We are misled in a second way, by a well-intentioned but dishonest campaign to deny the Islamic State's medieval religious nature.
There is no "we" to this misunderstanding. This misunderstanding is 100% on the Obama administration. Most all Americans knew that ISIS was not part of Islam in general, but a particular militant and violent strain of Islam. Yet Obama specifically, and his administration in general, steadfastly refused to understand the Islamic religious nature of ISIS despite overwhelming evidence otherwise. Given the resources available to President Obama about world events and the causes of those events, his J.V. team reference underscores how dangerously naive and incompetent he and his administration is. It is the President who sees Islam and a monolithic organization as he smugly declares certain groups to be "un-Islamic" and not part of the "true nature" of Islam. This craziness continues to this day as the White House terrorism summit does not include any notion that ISIS is an Islamic and terrorist organization.

Another point is the ISIS endgame. The "end of days" part of its propaganda has become very fashionable in recent weeks. Wood:
In broad strokes, al-Qaeda acts like an underground political movement, with worldly goals in sight at all times-the expulsion of non-Muslims from the Arabian peninsula, the abolishment of the state of Israel, the end of support for dictatorships in Muslim lands. The Islamic State has its share of worldly concerns (including, in the places it controls, collecting garbage and keeping the water running), but the End of Days is a leitmotif of its propaganda.
The "end of days" theology is certainly part of the Islamic picture. As they say, that is in God's hands, not man's. So in that view ISIS is not an "end of days" instrumentality but instead sees its message as preparing Muslims for the end of days. Part of this is to return Islam to its medieval roots and to "prepare the world" for the end of days whenever it comes. This is done by establishing the caliphate, and by returning the Islamic world to Islamic ancient roots.

What do we do? Will we can't harf the problem with a jobs program. The first step is to recognize what the issue is, and it seems obvious to me, that ISIS is simply the latest product of the Islamic resurgence of the 20th century. President Sisi sees the problem. There must be others who agree but haven't been as visible. We need to understand that the ISIS threat is a bigger problem than Sisi's heavy handed governance. The doorway to dealing with the issue, beyond killing all of the ISIS militants we can, is to through Sisi's calls for an Islamic reformation.










This post was edited on 2/18 11:17 AM by CO. Hoosier
 
I know

I love living in your head. I know that whatever I post you will feed my narcism and egoism by turning all my posts into a thread about me.
 
"A huge threat to the world?" Shirley, you jest.

They are about as much of a threat to "the world" as any other tiny rogue country. They are of almost zero threat to Americans.

Speaking of threats to the world, which country do you think the world community sees as the most dangerous to world peace?

Yep, the United States. By almost 3x as much as the next country.


This is the same story the war-hawks gave the public about Iran. They just changed the names and some of the details. Fear still rules.

This post was edited on 2/18 3:24 PM by FL33
 
The main problem with an apocalyptic cult...

...is that they can rarely be reasoned with, and whatever secular changes are made in their situation (like, ahem, "jobs") are unlikely to change their fanaticism. Now, it's possible (likely?) that a majority of their supporters are only hanging on to them because they offer something - anything - to believe in at a time when their lives suck, but the leaders of the movement, the ones who actually own the guns, are almost certainly in this to the death, no matter what.

goat
 
I truely wish that the

President was ONLY misunderstanding and naïve.

It appears, with all the information available to him, that he is willfully refusing to acknowledge the truth about ISIS and others of that ilk and that such refusal is intended to protect violent off shoot strains of Islam from being held responsible.

That, unfortunately, places the failure to properly pursue this threat squarely on his shoulders, his constant unwillingness to accept responsibility for this administration's errors, notwithstanding.
 
I don't know why you can't say

"apocalyptic Islamic cult" as Wood clearly establishes. But no matter. Your last sentence shows more wisdom than the Obama administration has given us in almost a year since ISIS has been in the news. These guys are not J.V. and they certainly are in this to the death, not just their deaths. This upheaval in an important part of the world cannot be good for the world's economic and social order which is why we cannot do nothing and view them simply as a local gang.

But the question is what is to be done. Killing all we can is a start, even though we know we can't kill them all. An ideological blockade and sequester would be a long term strategy. Sisi has nicely laid out that plan.
 
Of course; but, what a lot of people still do not understand is that...


ISIS does not go around beheading and burning people to strike fear in those they are subjugating. It has nothing to do with that. Rather, they want the West to come after them--they want the battle the West in order to fulfill ancient Islamic prophecies. Sure, some have joined the cause because they had no optimism in their own future in the secular world. The worse someone's situation the more vulnerable they are to cults/religious fanaticism. But that's not what is at the core of ISIS.
 
Hundreds of them are

already in the US - so says the FBI.




"Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimum food or water, in austere conditions, day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon. He doesn't worry about what workout to do---his rucksack weighs what it weighs, and he runs until the enemy stops chasing him. The True believer doesn't care 'how hard it is'; he knows he either wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 1700; he is home. He knows only the 'Cause.' Now, who wants to quit?

NCOIC of the Special Forces Assessment and Selection Course in a welcoming speech to new SF candidates.
 
Which raises the question...

...do we take the bait? Will they go away if we simply ignore them, and say, "We're not playing on your terms?"

I really doubt it.

For me, this all comes back to something I said a few weeks ago: I really don't see a legitimate endgame to this that doesn't involve killing a ton of people.

goat
 
Goat would you revoke the passport of a U.S. citizen


who was attempting to go over and join them? I would but only after they got on the plane to turkey.
 
Hm . . . .

Do you really believe that ISIS doesn't use atrocities like beheading, rapes, burying children alive, and live burning as a weapon and as a means of intimidation and control over the occupied territories; also as a message to those who might take up arms against them?

If not, that is the effect. The Iraqi soldiers dropped their arms, abandoned their equipment and skedaddled when they first faced the ISIS fighters. At least one ally backed out of the air campaign because we did not have adequate coverage for rescuing downed airmen.

They probably are also using atrocities as a provocation, but based upon what we actually observe, it seems the intimidation and messaging is a larger factor.
 
Are there choices

ISIS wants WWIII with the west. We can ignore them so long, but in theory they'll eventually get what they want. Think of this at the personal level. I might want to fight you, you not me. So you ignore my taunts and other items. But sooner or later I am just going to punch you, will you ignore that?

If we accept these reports of them wanting the apocalypse, what does that mean? I fear it means they will always look for ways to attack us. And if smaller attacks don't work, they'll look for bigger and bigger attacks.

I didn't want to go into Syria/Iraq after ISIS, but I'm not sure we are left with an option any more. Is there any scenario anyone sees where ISIS will be happy without staging attacks against the US and US presence around the world? If there goal is to fight us in WWIII, I don't know that we have a choice but to believe them. Hopefully more knowledgeable will write on this, but if we are required to fight them now or later, I'm not sure fighting them when they are weaker is a bad idea.

The other possibility, this is all wrong and they will be happy just controlling part of Syria. Pol Pot would be the comparison, quite willing to settle to turn just his territory into a horror show. If that's ISIS, than let someone else deal with it. But I'm no longer sure it is.
 
Apocalyptic cult? You guys sound like school boys gossipping about boogey-

men and ghosts around a campfire.

I think you have it backwards: the ones who buy into the religious propaganda are the simpletons on the ground. I'd bet next month's paycheck that the guys at the top are as secular as Saddam and Bin Laden and just use the religious stuff where ever it suits their needs.
 
They want to face off with the West like Saddam and Kim Jun Il

wanted/wants to. In other words, we make a great foil for their propaganda--which they are willing to ratchet up to 11--but they don't want WWIII with the U.S. or any western state.

Think logically: if they wanted WWIII they could march West until they over take Europe or they have all been killed in battle (what they say they want).

If you want a real war with someone, you mobilize and attack them. Anything short of that is just propaganda as they try and project strength and power in a chaotic region.
 
It would help if you read the article rather than simply spouting off


ISIS wants a battle with the West. But they want it to be in Syria--specifically, Dabiq. The article linked in the OP explains everything further.
 
Did either Saddam or Kim Jun Il attack the west?

I'm not sure I recall attacks in Paris, or Denmark, from either Saddam or Kim. Look at Paris, France was not part of the air war in Syria. Carrying out that attack certainly risked France joining up with the US and the other nations involved. What logic is there to that if ISIS is only concerned about a Caliphate in Syria? If they moved their chess pieces there, what was the reason and how did they believe that reason would advance the ball for them?

ISIS isn't a conventional army, they can't mobilize and march on Paris any more than the Viet Cong could. At least not now, if they want to do that and take a country and build a standard army and navy, it is theoretically possible. But that isn't who they are now. They depend on 2 guys getting through customs and carrying out whatever size attack 2 guys can do.

Maybe these people are wrong, maybe all this is just a PR move. I don't know, I don't know Islam at all. I don't know how many people are likely to be moved to action by a promise of armageddon. It is all a mystery to me, but I assume people who claim to be experts have studied the religion and the apocalyptic myths.

If ISIS wants just to control Syria, there is a strategy they can use. I'm not sure where I see attacking civilians in Paris fits into only occupying Syria. For a group that has no interest in fighting the West in WWIII, they seem to be doing pretty well at unifying the West and Western allies (Jordanian and Egyptian armies) against them.
 
That is what is interesting about this

IF it is all accurate, they have a set goal. If we look at their chess moves thinking of that goal, it makes a lot more sense. If there only goal was to establish a Caliphate in Syria, I'm not sure how some of their moves fit. Like I said just above, attacking Paris makes little sense in just occupying Syria. Why bring another fairly major world power in. Same for the Jordanian pilot, Jordan has a decent army by Middle East standards. Why risk adding them to a fight for Syria?

Now, if you want the paranoid thought of the day, there are websites that suggest ISIS is fully under CIA control to allow the US and West to gain more control of the Middle East. I don't buy it, but it does share one thing with the theory the article purported. That is that the chess moves make sense.

If ISIS believes control of Syria requires fighting France and Jordan (and now Egypt), I'm not sure they are a threat at all. The person that picks a fight with the Hells Angels then goes out and finds two other gangs to want to kill him at the same time typically wouldn't be thought of as particularly bright.
 
I read it. It was one of the most transparent pieces of crap used as

propaganda yet.

Think logically about what you are afraid of and I think anyone with a working brain will easily conclude that there is nothing to worry about. The whole premise of what they supposedly stand for and want is absurd.

They're nothing special. They're like every other armed militia engaged in a brutal civil war. Nothing less. Nothing more.
 
What does Paris, France have to do with this?

That was a domestic issue carried out by Al Queda (supposedly). The assailants were French citizens who entered and left the country of their own accord. It wasn't a covert military operation. You don't want Paris, Frances to happen then revamp your immigration and customs policies. (Same can be said for 9-11 and the Boston Bombing, btw).


But let's assume the Paris attacks are connected (for the sake of argument). Does that justify plunging ourselves into a civil war in the middle of nowhere? Imo, that hasn't been a real successful foreign policy strategy for the U.S.
 
In this thread you linked some moonbat nonsense that . . .

included all sorts of absurdities, including the assertion, presented as if it were a fact, that the USG killed MLK. For anyone with a working brain, as you put it, should immediately disqualify you opinion on what is and isn't nonsense.
 
FL you miss the big point point


all we have to do to end this crap is call them names, if that doesn't work we can easily just send in a few thousand troops and wipe them out in a urban area, even though once in were not even sure who the hell were fighting. Obamas foreign policy created all this .
 
Not sure what that blog is. It was the first thing that came up when I

googled for the Gallup poll. I edited my post to link it directly to the Gallup site so as not to offend those of you with delicate sensibilities.

Guilt by association...nice argument technique... Now do you have any substantive thoughts to add to the discussion?
 
Understand you screwed up by not vetting your link.

That page was full of absurd assertions. It naturally reflects on the credibility of the person linking to the nonsense.
 
As I suspected...you have no substantive thoughts here.

Continue to cry about whatever it is you are upset about.

No one is listening.
 
Interesting read, my question is...

... does ISIS screen volunteers as to their devotion and knowledge of its version of Islam? If not, how do these volunteers acquire their devotion and knowledge of ISIS Islam?

I can see volunteers joining ISIS to say gain a purpose in life along with say despising Western values, but does this mean they buy into and understand ISIS's version of Islam?

The link gives the impression that the ISIS interpretation of Islam is solidly accepted and understood from the top on down. This is hard for me to believe given the fact it is rather out dated and not generally held among even Sunni Muslims.
 
By coincidence, the Paris attacks were split

The first attack appeared carried out by AQ, but the person that carried out the market attack was ISIS. It wasn't that the two groups worked together, rather the people involved were friends before choosing differing factions. So ISIS was involved, just in the secondary attack. Denmark does appear to have ISIS connections.

I get the concept of coming home and treating this as a law enforcement issue. And before we got involved that is where I stood, I did not support our air strikes. In the end, I am convinced only Islamic countries can solve this problem.

But once we started the bombings, I'm not sure we haven't become a target. When Russia wanted out of WWI, they asked Germany for terms. Germany's terms were so harsh that Lenin couldn't accept them, but he couldn't keep fighting either. So Trotsky hit upon a brilliant idea, no surrender. Just order his troops to stop fighting and go home. With no Russian troops to fight, Germany would just have to go home. Of course it worked out that German took ground by leaps and bounds until Trotsky pretty much accepted anything/everything Germany wanted.

That may be where we are with ISIS. If we come home, will they just say "great, we won, let's just create our Caliphate and ignore the US". I am somewhat skeptical they would do that. If we had been bombed for a year, I doubt we'd be in the mood to just let the other country go home in peace. But maybe I'm wrong. I fear once you start a war, your options are win or lose. Just quitting and going home seems as unlikely to work today as it was in 1917.
 
Dude, you posted nearly nothing of substance in the entire thread.


Neary every one of your posts led off with an insult and if it didn't you added one somewhere within them. That includes the one I responded to. I do not tend to converse with disrespectful posters generally, and since you've really posted little of substance anyway, I don't see any reason I should converse with you.

This post was edited on 2/18 4:14 PM by Aloha Hoosier
 
I don't think the U.S. has quit and went home since somewhere

in time before or after WWI, so it is somewhat ironic you reference that period. Certainly, that's the case since WWII. So, I don't think quitting and going home is an option.

The U.S. has allies in the region. It has semi-allies and more hostile states. There will be involvement, but I prefer it to be more indirect. Air raids seem harmless to the public, until you see the downed Jordanian pilot being burned alive.

To your last point, the militias/tribes/Islamic states over there are going to invoke the U.S.'s name whether we leave now or not. There is already enough past involvement to make us a ideological foil for another generation. Add in that we symbolize the West to much of the world and there you go. Loud mouth leaders will invoke the U.S.'s name.

But why get involved now? Because they brag that they are going to fight us to the death? Sure...sure...so did Saddam and Bin Laden and so many others. Yet they weren't felled on the battlefield, AK in hand. They were ferreted out of a hole, hiding away.

The ME needs some equilibrium in power. Badly. The U.S. military has failed to superimpose a balance of power, so let these militias have their civil war. Whomever prevails can negotiate with the U.S., or go to war with us if they so choose.

I'm no fan of Obama. I'm on record with that. But these guys are very much the "J.V. Team." These guys are the dissidents and militia men who were kept in check, or just out, by guys like Saddam and Khaddaffi. Sadam's army could hardly be called "varsity" in comparison to the Western nations, and he would have crushed these guys.

But we wanted guys like that gone. We destroyed the power structure. I don't see how the U.S. can keep playing whack-a-mole with every half-@ssed iman and militia that pops up in the absence of the old power structure. There's always somebody ready to step in and take their place, and often more brutal than the last guy.

Let them have their civil war.
 
It might be, unless and until


a sleeper cell attacks a restaurant you are eating in or a school our kids attend.

Then it will be a military issue and you'll wish the military was on hand to prevent the waging of war against American families. Homeland Security nor ICE nor the Attorney General nor the President aren't going to lift a finger to protect. They'll probably label it random street violence and call the perpetrators "youths" unless they are too busy playing golf to notice.
 
You replied to me. It's your will power, or lack thereof, that has

created this sub-thread even though you "don't see any reason [you] should converse" with me.

You were offended by the website I linked (which hardly constitutes an endorsement of it by me, but whatever...) that contained the Gallup poll I wanted to post. I fixed it about 3 posts ago, but you're still here complaining. Now you feel aggrieved by some supposed insult.

This conversation has went nowhere, but you're still here so you can continue playing the victim, taking offense, and tilting at windmills, in general.

Respectfully, of course.
 
I would rather our allies be involved

That was my original argument against being involved. It is that theory of self responsibility, our allies don't care to defend themselves because they know we will. So when something happens in the ME, our allies look to us (all the while telling their people we are evil). If ISIS is marching on Amman or Riyadh, maybe their leaders will get fully engaged.

But that does run a risk they'll wake up in time. After Mosul fell, I think there was panic in our allies. After the last year, I think they've settled back into their old habits. I'm not sure they will react in time if we left. Maybe we tell them in advance we are leaving on X date and not coming back? Maybe ship them some film footage of the Saigon Embassy evacuation as a reminder of what can happen when we leave and don't come back?

The fact of the matter, and I bet we agree, we cannot defeat these terrorists because we are largely the reason they exist. Our allies can defeat them, if they had the will. I would love to leave, but at this point I want anyone who may be supportive of freedom to have a shot at surviving the vacuum.
 
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