Several people are trying to have a conversation about torture, Haspel's role in it, and Haspel's role in obstructing oversight of interrogations by destroying evidence of it because those things are indicative of how she would lead the CIA if confirmed. It's perfectly reasonable to have these conversations as part of her confirmation process. It's disappointing that posters such as you and Aloha aren't able to engage in the conversation.
Gina Haspel Confirmation Hearings
- Thread starter bigmac76
- Start date
Several people are trying to have a conversation about torture, Haspel's role in it, and Haspel's role in obstructing oversight of interrogations by destroying evidence of it because those things are indicative of how she would lead the CIA if confirmed. It's perfectly reasonable to have these conversations as part of her confirmation process. It's disappointing that posters such as you and Aloha aren't able to engage in the conversation.
I guess we should think of it as a job interview. Someone was accused of stealing at a previous job, is the person interviewing them allowed to ask about it?
Sounds like you are uncomfortable with conversations about difficult subjects or don't believe in civilian oversight of the military and intelligence services. Were you uncomfortable discussing Mattis' actions in the Battle of Fallujah or his actions overseeing the trial around the Haditha massacre? It would have been unconscionable for there not to have been a conversation about those actions in his confirmation hearings. If he wasn't willing and able to discuss the decisions he made, analyze what he'd do the same and what he'd do differently, and project how it informs how he would perform as Secretary of Defense, he shouldn't have been confirmed.
So, if you're not willing to have those type of conversations about cabinet nominees, you're lowering the bar. It's disappointing that you think so little of our intelligence services to think they and nominees like Haspel incapable of having such a conversation.
I don’t agree. While I haven’t watched the hearing, I don’t know of a single report of a Dem who inquired about North Korea, Iran, Syria or any other current issue. No conversation at all about anticipated intelligence issues. Nothing about developing better human intelligence, which is the CIA’s mission. Nothing about her views on oversight. The Dems have forgotten that enhanced interrogation was included in oversight. The past history of waterboarding, which was a unique response to an unprecedented attack, is all about posturing for 2020.
That’s not what is going on here. Of course it should be asked. It was and she answered. The problem is the Democratic posturing and pontificating and acting like approving her is tantamount to approving torture. She is acknowledged to be qualified in a number of ways. She wasn’t the decider about the issue. Congress was informed. We’ve done much worse and the person responsible has a monument in the nation’s capital. This is all about politics and elections.
Maybe for you, but not for me.
She didn't answer the questions that matter (and I'm not convinced they were asked effectively). Was what she did previously a mistake? If so, what about them were mistakes and why? How would she avoid making similar mistakes?
If she is as capable as everyone appears to believe, answering these questions (among others) is a pretty straightforward matter that would be highly informative towards how she would perform as Director.
it's the freaking CIA.
no doubt they do far worse things than waterboard.
that said, putting so much emphasis on the waterboarding thing is beyond absurd.. so many far more important issues.
as to the waterboarding thing, no, i don't think we need to waterboard every prisoner we capture.
that said, if we knew for sure that Isis had gotten a hold of a suitcase nuclear bomb, and had someone in custody who knew where it was, that someone would have a lot worse than waterboarding to worry about were it up to me to locate the bomb.
i remember several yrs ago a guy kidnapped a child and buried her alive with only so much air.
iirc cops had the guy. the guy admitted what he'd done. and wouldn't give up the location.
if that's your little girl, is anyone on earth still 100% anti torture.
at that point, i'm guessing it's "whatever it takes" at that point, with almost everyone.
do you or don't you approve of waterboarding or whatever, has to always be determined on a case by case basis.
to overemphasize this one issue when we're talking about who's running the CIA is beyond ridiculous, and just make the left look like total idiots who have lost all sense of proportion.
being i side with liberals on a lot of things, (not all), i hate to see them making themselves look like total idiots on some things, and just throw swing votes away when they do.
That sounds like an interesting story. Could you link to it?
This debate we are having here has nothing to do with posturing for 2020. Our debate has to do with what we think should be important to us and our country. FWIW, I can't imagine a Dem president putting forward a Haspel for head of CIA precisely because of her connection and involvement with the torture program. The legitimization of torture is entirely a partisan project of the Cheney wing of the GOP. That project continues now with Trump. Fox News is now broadcasting "experts" who not only say that torture works but that the best proof is ("songbird" John McCain). The debate over torture is far from over.
The debate over torture is part and parcel of the more significant debate we are having over nationalism. Nationalists partition humanity into "us" and "them". To the nationalist "they" have no rights and we have no duties to them. If we treat them decently it is only because it is convenient for us to do so. Our common liberal values (e.g., respect for human rights and renunciation of torture) heretofore rejected such nationalism. But those liberal values were never more than a veneer. Underneath sits a deep and virulent nationalism that has been an active agent throughout our history. The glue that holds our classically liberal veneer in place is largely an elite consensus. We are watching the glue fall apart.
IWe are talking about the rarest of rare events. That is not the backdrop for an in-depth discussion about weighty matters. It’s a backdrop for posturing.
I actually like that line of thinking. However, what I read from some is they believe they are murders, etc.
Posturing for whom? We are talking here on the Water Cooler not on the floors of Congress. We are talking about things that at least some of us think are important. We might speak carefully and thoughtfully to one another and learn something as well. Here is what I have learned from you in this thread. Your view is that Haspel's nomination is entirely divorced from the issue of torture and instead solely about competence and patriotism. She seems competent and patriotic so you favor approval. Aloha's position is mostly the same but with the proviso that torture is not a thing anymore...and the book should be closed on discussion of it. I think that fairly and dispassionately reflects your position. Your position neglects the President's position on torture and that torture is a feature rather than a bug for the nationalist perspective. I have made my view clear and in a fair, dispassionate manner many times above.
LOL. I say congressional hearings include a lot of posturing. This one is no exception and provided an example. You say I post in bad faith. What congress do you watch?
Almost literally from his death bed, John McCain is strongly opposing this nomination. Seemingly more than many Democrats. How is it grandstanding?
Uncomfortable? Not at all. Interested? Hardly. We’ve had this conversation a hundred times. The only difference is the date and a CIA Director nomination. Nothing said has been really different. You could cut and paste some of the posts from 14 or 15 years ago. In fact, I think a few posters probably did that.
As for questions about torture, that’s essentially ALL that Democrats asked about. She handled them well and she will be confirmed. After that, she’ll do her job, probably do it well, and the arguments here will be about something else.
Mattis has been an outstanding SecDef and would be for any President. It’s nice to have a few decent nominees by this President.
Last edited:
We've reached a new low. "Song bird John": This is the junk they are pilfering on fox about McCain who is on his death bed. Despicable.
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...t-says-torture-worked-on-mccain-they-call?amp
I believe you can find it by googling "TV show 24 episode kidnapping torture". Really gripping story line. If I remember correctly, they found the location of the girl just in time.
That is despicable. Those false stories about John McCain have been around for a long time. We had some posters here making those kinds of accusations of John McCain during the 2008 election.
Last edited:
It's even worse when someone is about to die. Completely uncalled for.
And the hits keep coming:
http://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...icial-mocked-dying-mccain-at-internal-meeting
What is wrong with these people. This idiot should be fired immediately. Works in comms too.
What do you expect? They nominated and elected a guy who made fun of a POW. Not a peep about it.
I agree that the comments are not very sensitive. But there isn’t any love lost on either side. To write a book and have it released after your demise taking your last shots from the grave....? Well that is petty. A quote from the book about the dossier says if you didn’t like him giving the dossier to Comey then you can go to hell. Well.... bite me John. I certainly appreciate and admire what he endured for his country and fellow servicemen. Unbelievable sacrifice..... but it isn’t a free pass to piss on everyone on your way out.
Two articles on the Haspel nomination: one pro and one undecided
Some good points to consider
https://lawfareblog.com/why-support-gina-haspel-despite-big-reservation
https://www.justsecurity.org/55957/stakes-haspel-nomination-response-ben-wittes/
meanwhile VP Cheney is arguing for restarting the torture program
http://www.newsweek.com/dick-cheney-torture-restart-waterboarding-919537
Some good points to consider
https://lawfareblog.com/why-support-gina-haspel-despite-big-reservation
https://www.justsecurity.org/55957/stakes-haspel-nomination-response-ben-wittes/
meanwhile VP Cheney is arguing for restarting the torture program
http://www.newsweek.com/dick-cheney-torture-restart-waterboarding-919537
These Fox folks are disgusting:
Calling a dying man names. Songbird John.
What a world we live in.
Calling a dying man names. Songbird John.
What a world we live in.
Per the White House, it doesn't matter, because he's dying anyway.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/10/politics/white-house-kelly-sadler-john-mccain/index.html
You didn’t, but some moonbats on your team certainly did. I spent time debunking that nonsense. Incidentally there are wingnuts out there that spread the same false stories about McCain. I also take them on.
If he had handed over a "Steele Dossier" on Obama and said that, would you still say "bite me"? I theorize you would have praised him for it.
The bite me is for telling people to go to hell....that’s all. Sounds bitter which.....he is.
I’m talking about the senators in the hearing.
McCain’s feelings about Trump are well known and he has them for good reason. His feelings about waterboarding are well known too.
"Moonbats" or "wingnuts" playing for imaginary teams here on the forum are irrelevant. What the President of the United States, members of his staff, and former generals speaking on Fox News say is relevant. Everyone here already knows that the stuff about McCain is pure crap...it doesn't need debunking...what needs dealing with is that McCain is saying Haspel shouldn't be confirmed while the President, his staff and commentators on Fox are attacking him with pure crap.
I’ve never agreed with McCain on every issue. I still happily voted for him for President.
The personal attacks on him are despicable. They can disagree with him without that crap.
An excellent addition on the anti-Haspel side. The key graf is that Haspel was more deeply enmeshed in the torture program and the decision to destroy evidence than has been known. Moreover, there has never been a proper accounting of the program and the coverup.
I think Joe might be right. I was called to school for my kid getting in fight with a guy behind the gym. When we asked him why he did it he quoted Joe Biden claiming he would take Trump out behind the gym and beat the hell out of him.
Heck that was only two months ago. Old Joes memory I’m afraid is getting shorter....
Good thing ol' Joe taught your kid to stand up for what's right. Kid needs to learn it somewhere.
No they literally can't. The Trumpsters have more vile things to say about McCain than anyone in politics.
Hapsel will be easily confirmed.
This is a lot of political bullshit to replay an issue from 15+ years ago...when the nation was rightly on edge. This is a monumental loser issue for Dems to try to make a stand.
The gut reaction of Dems is to oppose everything that comes from this admin. Not a good strategy, IMO. There are plenty of areas you can focus upon....cry wolf too much, the country tunes out.
This is a lot of political bullshit to replay an issue from 15+ years ago...when the nation was rightly on edge. This is a monumental loser issue for Dems to try to make a stand.
The gut reaction of Dems is to oppose everything that comes from this admin. Not a good strategy, IMO. There are plenty of areas you can focus upon....cry wolf too much, the country tunes out.
