Butler vs Xavier
- Thread starter trailrunner
- Start date
Holtmann is impressive for sure. Someone is going to probably scoop him sooner or later, just a matter of if it is IU or not.
Crazy how Butler had became the premier basketball program in the state. Actually it is sad given the resources IU has
My only question... can he recruit at a elite level?
The Butler class coming in is very solid....for Butler.
Can he land top 15 classes consistently?
The Butler class coming in is very solid....for Butler.
Can he land top 15 classes consistently?
Just saying he has not proven it yet and I am not sold on him yet. His two years at Gardner Webb was not impressive at all and was 10 games under .500
I agree and he is alo t better than Crean but he would not be real high on my wish list.
I've always believed you nicely give a coach two years when it's a rebuild (which is why I never rip on Crean until that disasterous year three).
Webb was obviously a rebuild, he had two tough years and then year three he went 21-13, finished 2nd in his conference and won the COY award.
He's been over 70% at Butler and is looking to finish 2nd in the big east 2 out of three years, never lower than 4th so far.
He's not my favorite but he's been pretty impressive in a very small sample of years.
My Butler friends who I feel are pretty knowledgeable basketball fans love him. Not as much as Stevens obviously but they hope Holtmann is there for 25 plus years.
Webb was obviously a rebuild, he had two tough years and then year three he went 21-13, finished 2nd in his conference and won the COY award.
He's been over 70% at Butler and is looking to finish 2nd in the big east 2 out of three years, never lower than 4th so far.
He's not my favorite but he's been pretty impressive in a very small sample of years.
My Butler friends who I feel are pretty knowledgeable basketball fans love him. Not as much as Stevens obviously but they hope Holtmann is there for 25 plus years.
Not mine
Donovan
Marshall
T. Bennett
S. Miller
A. Miller
I would have Stevens in there but that is not happening.
Gardner Webb was an upstart D 1 program when he was there Not very fair to judge his time there IMO. He is on my top 5 list
If you listen to Kent Stirling show, Butler does this pretty cool thing where every single coach is involved in game plan and scouting opponents.
Between this year and last year, Butler has 4 top 150 recruits. That is pretty much all of the top 150 recruits in Butlers history. He has also recruited an Indiana recruit in each of the last 4 years.
For 2017, Holtman has two 4 stars committed. Crean only has one.
Holtman does a great job finding local talent that is in northern Kentucky and SW Ohio i.e. Nate Fowler, Kyle Young, Kelan Martin, Jackson Davis.
You have to remember, this guy is working with a recruiting budget that is probably 5x less than Creans.
Between this year and last year, Butler has 4 top 150 recruits. That is pretty much all of the top 150 recruits in Butlers history. He has also recruited an Indiana recruit in each of the last 4 years.
For 2017, Holtman has two 4 stars committed. Crean only has one.
Holtman does a great job finding local talent that is in northern Kentucky and SW Ohio i.e. Nate Fowler, Kyle Young, Kelan Martin, Jackson Davis.
You have to remember, this guy is working with a recruiting budget that is probably 5x less than Creans.
Let's not compare Crean and Holtmann in recruiting, because let's face it, Crean is dead in the water right now recruiting wise and was still able to pull something comparable to Holtmann.
If you compare A Miller vs Mack vs Holtman.... I think Holtmann places last...
Does that mean he can't recruit at IU? No....
Its my only knock on Holtmann. Can he go out a land some serious out of state talent to go along with the in state talent?
Again, im not against Holtmann.... no coach is perfect... but it is something he would have to step up in a hurry.
With the extension at Arizona how much is Sean Miller making? I think IU can offer more, but maybe Zona will match it
How many top 15 classes did Crean have at Marquette? How many McDonald's AAs did Crean land at Marquette?
The recruiting concern is a valid one (remember Todd Lickliter?). That's why I want an exhaustive search done. Frankly, I prefer a young guy, IF he has "it". Knight had it, Stevens has it, Donovan has it... if you objectively conduct interviews with multiple people, I think it makes itself evident. I can guarantee, Lickliter did not have "it". Guy was a dead fish personality wise. I have no idea about Holtman, but he'd sure be on my list to interview if I was AD and doing so.
Sure, but that's not the point.
When discussing possible new coaches everyone always says "can they recruit at a high level??????"
Well, by illustrating Crean's class ranks and number of Burger Boys he got at Marquette, he suddenly had all kinds of them at IU. It goes to illustrate that the IU brand has A LOT to do with it.
You would have to REALLY suck at recruiting to not get Burger Boys at IU.
Ok...I agree. I think everyone here would agree with that.
Now, tell me how many Burger Boys Crean got at Marquette.
How many did Todd Lickliter get at Iowa?
I see what you are trying to do, but nothing is guaranteed.
The simple fact is Chris Holtmann....
* Has never been to a sweet 16
* Never won a conference title
* Never won a conference tourney
* Has missed the NCAA as many times as made it
* Never had less than 11 losses in a season (might break that one this year)
It's great you think he is the next big thing, I just don't agree.
Crean has done well when he has a certain player that can take games over. Yogi, wade, Zeller/Vic. Creans career has been consistent over his career. Special player and he has a good year. Solid talented team and he typically has average to below average seasons. To me Crean has philsophy issues and recruiting issues as his biggest weakness's
I don't really care about the coach you mentioned.
I can you don't want to answer the question because it doesn't fit a certain narrative when discussing possible new coaches.
The IU name/brand has as much to do with recruiting as anything. Even Mike Davis landed Burger Boys and other highly regarded recruits here and he had ZERO head coaching experience.
You don't need a history of landing highly rated recruits to get highly rated recruits at IU.
Ok, but I'm taking issue with when people ask "can he get highly rated recruits?" regarding possible new coaches.
Like if a guy doesn't land McDonald's AAs at Xavier or Butler he won't be able to land them at IU...
LOL.... I don't care about the coach you mentioned either....
And the reason you don't care about Todd Lickliter is because it destroys your entire argument that if you go to a better school, recruiting improves.
Now, how about those other things I posted about Holtmann? Doesn't any of that concern you? Don't you think IU could do better?
The simple fact is Chris Holtmann....
* Has never been to a sweet 16
* Never won a conference title
* Never won a conference tourney
* Has missed the NCAA as many times as made it
* Never had less than 11 losses in a season (might break that one this year)
Uh, LOL, ok.
I'm not arguing anything about Holtmann. I've never even brought him up. I haven't discussed any specific coaches outside of Davis and Crean in this thread. And I only discussed them in reference to one particular question people keep throwing around.
I can't tell if you're trying to argue for Crean or just argue for the sake of arguing.
If you want to argue overall records I'll be happy to discuss the few coaches I've mentioned that I'd like to see IU pursue.
Personally, I don't know that Indiana could do better. If you know anything about Holtmann and anything about the game you know he is a hell of a coach. Your "simple facts" lack any context whatsoever. If those perceived weaknesses you cited should be used to disqualify a potential candidate, the hiring of Bob Knight was a colossal mistake.
Holtmann has moved the needle significantly at both Gardner-Webb and Butler. By any rational measure he has been enormously successful both places. Butler leads the nation in wins over top 50 teams this year and what the Bulldogs did last week might be the most impressive achievement of any team in college basketball this season. The guy is a tremendous coach (ask Brad Stevens).
There are probably several guys that IU might hire that would do an outstanding job. Some of those guys are coaches who have been at big-time programs and have demonstrated success. Some are guys that have not had a realistic opportunity to have that same level of success at this point in their careers but certainly have demonstrated the potential to do so. I would put Holtmann at the top of that list.
I won't go so far as to say nobody else is as good, but I also wouldn't say he isn't as good as somebody else. If I were hiring a basketball coach at any level he is a guy I would certainly consider.
