Building weak minds one student at a time.

[CO. Hoosier]

The big academic news recently is that two more universities signed on to the University of Chicago statement about free expression. The astounding, disappointing, and bewildering issue is why hasn't every university agreed to the university of Chicago statement? The idea that students can or should be “protected” from disagreeable or even offensive speech and ideas with safe spaces and censorship is not only crazy but builds weak minds and weak people. Is it any wonder that social media, our politics, and our country is such a mess when we are producing so many supposedly educated people who lack the mental and emotional basics to deal with all ideas and speech?

The statement:

“fundamental commitment is to the principle that debate or deliberation may not be suppressed because the ideas put forth are thought by some or even by most members of the University community to be offensive, unwise, immoral, or wrong-headed. It is for the individual members of the University community, not for the University as an institution, to make those judgments for themselves, and to act on those judgments not by seeking to suppress speech, but by openly and vigorously contesting the ideas that they oppose. Indeed, fostering the ability of members of the University community to engage in such debate and deliberation in an effective and responsible manner is an essential part of the University’s educational mission.” (My emphasis)​

Read the whole thing.

​

Oklahoma, Texas, and Other Schools Join UChicago Alliance on Free Speech

I have previously written of my pride as an alumnus of The University of Chicago in how the school has led the fight for free speech in higher education. It is also ranked as the number one free s…

jonathanturley.org

 

[Univee2]

The big academic news recently is that two more universities signed on to the University of Chicago statement about free expression. The astounding, disappointing, and bewildering issue is why hasn't every university agreed to the university of Chicago statement? The idea that students can or should be “protected” from disagreeable or even offensive speech and ideas with safe spaces and censorship is not only crazy but builds weak minds and weak people. Is it any wonder that social media, our politics, and our country is such a mess when we are producing so many supposedly educated people who lack the mental and emotional basics to deal with all ideas and speech?

The statement:

“fundamental commitment is to the principle that debate or deliberation may not be suppressed because the ideas put forth are thought by some or even by most members of the University community to be offensive, unwise, immoral, or wrong-headed. It is for the individual members of the University community, not for the University as an institution, to make those judgments for themselves, and to act on those judgments not by seeking to suppress speech, but by openly and vigorously contesting the ideas that they oppose. Indeed, fostering the ability of members of the University community to engage in such debate and deliberation in an effective and responsible manner is an essential part of the University’s educational mission.” (My emphasis)​

Read the whole thing.

​

Oklahoma, Texas, and Other Schools Join UChicago Alliance on Free Speech

I have previously written of my pride as an alumnus of The University of Chicago in how the school has led the fight for free speech in higher education. It is also ranked as the number one free s…

jonathanturley.org

As John Dutton said (paraphrasing here): “We’ve become a cowardly country.”

 

[CO. Hoosier]

As John Dutton said (paraphrasing here): “We’ve become a cowardly country.”

Yep. We have a crisis of masculinity. Toxic femininity is ruining education at every level. This toxicity lies at te heart of safe spaces and speech oppression.

Our culture is experiencing a crisis of masculinity - Washington Examiner

To have good mental health and a flourishing life, men need good fathers and strong male role models. They also need to have a sense of a cosmic destiny or the recognition that they have a purpose in the world.That’s the idea behind the great book Under Saturn’s Shadow: The Wounding and Healing of Men

www.washingtonexaminer.com

 

[BigDoggyDogDude]

University of Chicago is a dreary, boring demanding place. That is what happens when you put the emphasis on education over vanity. If more of our top Universities were modeled in that fashion and not around "finding yourself" there wouldn't be such a demand for Highed Ed.

 

[larsIU]

I firmly believe some people deserve a good shouting down by their peers. I don't think we should deny them that.

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

The big academic news recently is that two more universities signed on to the University of Chicago statement about free expression. The astounding, disappointing, and bewildering issue is why hasn't every university agreed to the university of Chicago statement? The idea that students can or should be “protected” from disagreeable or even offensive speech and ideas with safe spaces and censorship is not only crazy but builds weak minds and weak people. Is it any wonder that social media, our politics, and our country is such a mess when we are producing so many supposedly educated people who lack the mental and emotional basics to deal with all ideas and speech?

The statement:

“fundamental commitment is to the principle that debate or deliberation may not be suppressed because the ideas put forth are thought by some or even by most members of the University community to be offensive, unwise, immoral, or wrong-headed. It is for the individual members of the University community, not for the University as an institution, to make those judgments for themselves, and to act on those judgments not by seeking to suppress speech, but by openly and vigorously contesting the ideas that they oppose. Indeed, fostering the ability of members of the University community to engage in such debate and deliberation in an effective and responsible manner is an essential part of the University’s educational mission.” (My emphasis)​

Read the whole thing.

​

Oklahoma, Texas, and Other Schools Join UChicago Alliance on Free Speech

I have previously written of my pride as an alumnus of The University of Chicago in how the school has led the fight for free speech in higher education. It is also ranked as the number one free s…

jonathanturley.org

I include an opening day statement in my business law classes that ”this classroom is an intellectual safe space“ and that “we will discuss all sides of all issues so we can learn from each other.“ (Yes, I’m less of an asshole in non-anonymous real life.)

Doesn’t work. The damage has already been done.

My students tell me privately they are now scared to speak out about controversial issues. They fear both being shunned and being unable to start a career. BOTH SIDES have gone quiet in public.

Discussion of Dobbs and due process and privacy lasted mere seconds.

The most controversial comments of the last semester came from a student from Peru who - as we discussed free speech - asked why the US government allowed Fox News to spread lies, and one African-American student from Baltimore who felt Herschel Walker was being treated unfairly, as in “how long do your mistakes stay ‘fair game’ to be used against you?” Neither one prompted a single comment from other students.

Compromise and respect for the beliefs of others have been murdered by the combo of social media and tribalism - info overload just forced us all into our separate dugouts.

Look at this board and how we treat each other. I’m among the worst at intentionally insulting folks because I still retaliate against ”that team” after being called racist and Nazi by a very few loudmouth trolls and jerks and pseudo-intellectuals on the left. It’s as hard to stop as nicotine.

Civil and prolonged debate of the most divisive issues has always been an existential factor in our society. Social media has exponentially increased debate, but murdered civility. We are now physically and intellectually violent.

In short, I agree with the U of Chicago and wish they would raise the debate to a more prominent level with other universities. The fact schools need to dragged back to this idea is sad. But there have now been generations of Alinsky-ites sent out to stifle all dissent by any means necessary. January 6 and the “mostly peaceful” George Floyd/Breonna Taylor/BLM violences differ very little - “my way or violence.” Its has to stop.

 

[TomEric4756]

The big academic news recently is that two more universities signed on to the University of Chicago statement about free expression. The astounding, disappointing, and bewildering issue is why hasn't every university agreed to the university of Chicago statement? The idea that students can or should be “protected” from disagreeable or even offensive speech and ideas with safe spaces and censorship is not only crazy but builds weak minds and weak people. Is it any wonder that social media, our politics, and our country is such a mess when we are producing so many supposedly educated people who lack the mental and emotional basics to deal with all ideas and speech?

The statement:

“fundamental commitment is to the principle that debate or deliberation may not be suppressed because the ideas put forth are thought by some or even by most members of the University community to be offensive, unwise, immoral, or wrong-headed. It is for the individual members of the University community, not for the University as an institution, to make those judgments for themselves, and to act on those judgments not by seeking to suppress speech, but by openly and vigorously contesting the ideas that they oppose. Indeed, fostering the ability of members of the University community to engage in such debate and deliberation in an effective and responsible manner is an essential part of the University’s educational mission.” (My emphasis)​

Read the whole thing.

​

Oklahoma, Texas, and Other Schools Join UChicago Alliance on Free Speech

I have previously written of my pride as an alumnus of The University of Chicago in how the school has led the fight for free speech in higher education. It is also ranked as the number one free s…

jonathanturley.org

Let’s hope this isn’t “too little, too late” for Indoctrination U to return to Education U.

 

[hoot1]

My university had a motto as follows, "Through the shifting and winnowing of ideas shall come the truth".

Be open to all ideas and you might find something which works.

Political liberals and conservatives think they have a lock on the truth. Thereby they close their minds to finding solutions through compromise and finding solutions through trial and error.

 

[Stuffshot]

The big academic news recently is that two more universities signed on to the University of Chicago statement about free expression. The astounding, disappointing, and bewildering issue is why hasn't every university agreed to the university of Chicago statement? The idea that students can or should be “protected” from disagreeable or even offensive speech and ideas with safe spaces and censorship is not only crazy but builds weak minds and weak people. Is it any wonder that social media, our politics, and our country is such a mess when we are producing so many supposedly educated people who lack the mental and emotional basics to deal with all ideas and speech?

The statement:

“fundamental commitment is to the principle that debate or deliberation may not be suppressed because the ideas put forth are thought by some or even by most members of the University community to be offensive, unwise, immoral, or wrong-headed. It is for the individual members of the University community, not for the University as an institution, to make those judgments for themselves, and to act on those judgments not by seeking to suppress speech, but by openly and vigorously contesting the ideas that they oppose. Indeed, fostering the ability of members of the University community to engage in such debate and deliberation in an effective and responsible manner is an essential part of the University’s educational mission.” (My emphasis)​

Read the whole thing.

​

Oklahoma, Texas, and Other Schools Join UChicago Alliance on Free Speech

I have previously written of my pride as an alumnus of The University of Chicago in how the school has led the fight for free speech in higher education. It is also ranked as the number one free s…

jonathanturley.org

I used to try to have lunch at this little public park near my workplace.

Then, one day, three streetpreachers (two parents and an obnoxious 12-year-old) started showing up and preach-screaming at everybody for the entire lunch hour.

They would walk to within four feet of you and scream. If anyone would object to this or ask them to move away, one or more of them would march up to the objector and start screaming directly at him while wildly waving their fists and bibles. No discourse occurred -- just prohibition of any conversation other than the screaming of strangers.

There is no way that the statement's recommendation of "openly and vigorously contesting the ideas that they oppose" would cure this. The statement is a little too broad.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I include an opening day statement in my business law classes that ”this classroom is an intellectual safe space“ and that “we will discuss all sides of all issues so we can learn from each other.“ (Yes, I’m less of an asshole in non-anonymous real life.)

Doesn’t work. The damage has already been done.

My students tell me privately they are now scared to speak out about controversial issues. They fear both being shunned and being unable to start a career. BOTH SIDES have gone quiet in public.

Discussion of Dobbs and due process and privacy lasted mere seconds.

The most controversial comments of the last semester came from a student from Peru who - as we discussed free speech - asked why the US government allowed Fox News to spread lies, and one African-American student from Baltimore who felt Herschel Walker was being treated unfairly, as in “how long do your mistakes stay ‘fair game’ to be used against you?” Neither one prompted a single comment from other students.

Compromise and respect for the beliefs of others have been murdered by the combo of social media and tribalism - info overload just forced us all into our separate dugouts.

Look at this board and how we treat each other. I’m among the worst at intentionally insulting folks because I still retaliate against ”that team” after being called racist and Nazi by a very few loudmouth trolls and jerks and pseudo-intellectuals on the left. It’s as hard to stop as nicotine.

Civil and prolonged debate of the most divisive issues has always been an existential factor in our society. Social media has exponentially increased debate, but murdered civility. We are now physically and intellectually violent.

In short, I agree with the U of Chicago and wish they would raise the debate to a more prominent level with other universities. The fact schools need to dragged back to this idea is sad. But there have now been generations of Alinsky-ites sent out to stifle all dissent by any means necessary. January 6 and the “mostly peaceful” George Floyd/Breonna Taylor/BLM violences differ very little - “my way or violence.” Its has to stop.

This is a great post.

Part of the problem is that once students hit your (or any) post high-school classroom, the damage has been done. K-12 education instills group-think and conformity while stripping away the confidence to express contrary views.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I used to try to have lunch at this little public park near my workplace.

Then, one day, three streetpreachers (two parents and an obnoxious 12-year-old) started showing up and preach-screaming at everybody for the entire lunch hour.

They would walk to within four feet of you and scream. If anyone would object to this or ask them to move away, one or more of them would march up to the objector and start screaming directly at him while wildly waving their fists and bibles. No discourse occurred -- just prohibition of any conversation other than the screaming of strangers.

There is no way that the statement's recommendation of "openly and vigorously contesting the ideas that they oppose" would cure this. The statement is a little too broad.

I would expect a little more disciplined debate in a campus environment. But you make a good point about the public square. It’s kinda like social media. I guess the most we can hope for is that the civility and free expression of higher education would eventually spill over into the public arena, That would take a while.

 

[Bowlmania]

My students tell me privately they are now scared to speak out about controversial issues. They fear both being shunned and being unable to start a career. BOTH SIDES have gone quiet in public.

Scared of whom? In my experience, young adults both in my family and with whom I work aren't even a little reticent about speaking their minds.

If they're telling you they're afraid, you need to do a better job of convincing them that they have nothing to fear, at least not in your class.

You should add something to your "opening day statement." In addition to announcing that you'll be discussing all sides of every issue, let them know that participation in discussions is conditioned on respect. There will be zero tolerance for disrespectful comments or behavior. "Labeling" should also be taboo, as labels cause people to stop listening and shut down dialogue.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

My university had a motto as follows, "Through the shifting and winnowing of ideas shall come the truth".

Be open to all ideas and you might find something which works.

Political liberals and conservatives think they have a lock on the truth. Thereby they close their minds to finding solutions through compromise and finding solutions through trial and error.

I get your point, but I think there is more involved than the search for truth or trying to solve a problem. It’s how we should relate to those with whom we simply disagree. I remember a common question clients would have about lawyers was how could we go at it over a contentious issue but still respect and remain friends with opposing counsel. I never thought that was much of a problem. But that was 20-50 years ago. Nowadays I’m told there is much less civility and respect. I see it on this board.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Scared of whom?

Those who would cancel, discipline, ostracize, deny tenure, deny funding, or terminate friendships. I think the list is really long.

 

[hoot1]

I get your point, but I think there is more involved than the search for truth or trying to solve a problem. It’s how we should relate to those with whom we simply disagree. I remember a common question clients would have about lawyers was how could we go at it over a contentious issue but still respect and remain friends with opposing counsel. I never thought that was much of a problem. But that was 20-50 years ago. Nowadays I’m told there is much less civility and respect. I see it on this board.

Sense that Potomac Congressmen today don't respect or like pols from across the aisle as was the case 30-50 years ago.

Used to think this would change as time went on. Lately been having my doubts.

As to the Cooler, kinda feel if we met in person most of us would be more cordial unlike the Potomac Pols of today.

By the way, could it be all too many partisan voters in all those uncontested districts and states want their representatives to exhibit dislike for the other guys ?

 

[IUINSB]

(Yes, I’m less of an asshole in non-anonymous real life.)

I'm gonna need a link.
TIC

 

[NPT]

I'm gonna need a link.
TIC

There are a few on here that would be upset with this if it was directed at them and it was obviously meant as a joke. I thought it was funny.

 

[UncleMark]

There are a few on here that would be upset with this if it was directed at them and it was obviously meant as a joke. I thought it was funny.

I thought about banning his ass.

 

[IUINSB]

I thought about banning his ass.

And I would deserve it, wouldn't stop me from whining about it though.

 

[NPT]

I need to either go quick or have someone lined up to take me out.

There is probably a long line for that. 🤣

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

There are a few on here that would be upset with this if it was directed at them and it was obviously meant as a joke. I thought it was funny.

Me too.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

I include an opening day statement in my business law classes that ”this classroom is an intellectual safe space“ and that “we will discuss all sides of all issues so we can learn from each other.“ (Yes, I’m less of an asshole in non-anonymous real life.)

Doesn’t work. The damage has already been done.

My students tell me privately they are now scared to speak out about controversial issues. They fear both being shunned and being unable to start a career. BOTH SIDES have gone quiet in public.

Discussion of Dobbs and due process and privacy lasted mere seconds.

The most controversial comments of the last semester came from a student from Peru who - as we discussed free speech - asked why the US government allowed Fox News to spread lies, and one African-American student from Baltimore who felt Herschel Walker was being treated unfairly, as in “how long do your mistakes stay ‘fair game’ to be used against you?” Neither one prompted a single comment from other students.

Compromise and respect for the beliefs of others have been murdered by the combo of social media and tribalism - info overload just forced us all into our separate dugouts.

Look at this board and how we treat each other. I’m among the worst at intentionally insulting folks because I still retaliate against ”that team” after being called racist and Nazi by a very few loudmouth trolls and jerks and pseudo-intellectuals on the left. It’s as hard to stop as nicotine.

Civil and prolonged debate of the most divisive issues has always been an existential factor in our society. Social media has exponentially increased debate, but murdered civility. We are now physically and intellectually violent.

In short, I agree with the U of Chicago and wish they would raise the debate to a more prominent level with other universities. The fact schools need to dragged back to this idea is sad. But there have now been generations of Alinsky-ites sent out to stifle all dissent by any means necessary. January 6 and the “mostly peaceful” George Floyd/Breonna Taylor/BLM violences differ very little - “my way or violence.” Its has to stop.

Do kids in a business law class want to discuss hot button political issues?

 

[UncleMark]

Do kids in a business law class want to discuss hot button political issues?

That was one of several genuine questions I had. Dobbs? Business law?

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

Those who would cancel, discipline, ostracize, deny tenure, deny funding, or terminate friendships. I think the list is really long.

Universities have anti-harassment policies in place that apply to students and profs. In many universities, any mention of racial bias automatically kicks a complaint to HR and an investigation is opened.

I handle pro-bono cases for FIRE. The things students complain about today are ridiculous. But depending on who the HR investigator is, no matter how ridiculous the claim, you can be asked to apologize or face some type of probation/remediation for something found offensive by others. Some have faced worse.

 

[UncleMark]

My students tell me privately they are now scared to speak out about controversial issues. They fear both being shunned and being unable to start a career. BOTH SIDES have gone quiet in public.

Maybe you should talk to COH about using the Socratic method.

 

[UncleMark]

I handle pro-bono cases for FIRE. The things students complain about today are ridiculous. But depending on who the HR investigator is, no matter how ridiculous the claim, you can be asked to apologize or face some type of probation/remediation for something found offensive by others. Some have faced worse.

There's a defense attorney here in town who as a big part of her practice defends male college kids who get sucked into the university's kangaroo court regarding sexual misconduct.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Do kids in a business law class want to discuss hot button political issues?

Business law is just what’s written on the stupid syllabus. Floor is teaching law and life!

 

[mcmurtry66]

Do kids in a business law class want to discuss hot button political issues?

You think when mr jamail was teaching trial procedure and advocacy as an adjunct he was worried about what the kids wanted to discuss?

 

[stollcpa]

My university had a motto as follows, "Through the shifting and winnowing of ideas shall come the truth".

Be open to all ideas and you might find something which works.

Political liberals and conservatives think they have a lock on the truth. Thereby they close their minds to finding solutions through compromise and finding solutions through trial and error.

Can you give examples where conservatives in universities have scared liberal students from freely expressing their opinions?

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Maybe you should talk to COH about using the Socratic method.

MTIOTF already said he is less of an asshole in class. Ya can’t do Socratic method without being that.

 

[UncleMark]

MTIOTF already said he is less of an asshole in class. Ya can’t do Socratic method without being that.

Kingsfield is your hero, isn't he?

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Kingsfield is your hero, isn't he?

I would have loved his class.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Business law is just what’s written on the stupid syllabus. Floor is teaching law and life!

If the ABA can pass a teaching standard that property law is a product of white supremacy I don’t even want to think about all the woke supremacy crap imbedded in business law.

 

[hoot1]

Can you give examples where conservatives in universities have scared liberal students from freely expressing their opinions?

Stoll, don't know if i can answer your question about conservative students "scaring" liberal students at universities.

However at least one study has concluded conservative students at universities are fearful of speaking out by a ratio of 3 to 1 as compared to liberal students.

Seems to me conservatives may not speak out while in college, but manage to recover upon graduation as can be seen in the Supreme Court and state legislatures across the country.

Granted Dems may have the edge with college graduates among voters, but the non college voters make the Pubs hard to beat in many states and among rural communities. The drum beat of Pubs against woke college universities appears to be effective.

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

Do kids in a business law class want to discuss hot button political issues?

Not all of the students and not all of the issues.

Commercial speech usually matters to some of them - Twitter, Facebook, advertising

Some express concerns whether laws force businesses to be “fair” and pursue “what’s good for society”

Employment laws, discrimination and civil rights laws - should prompt more discussion than they do.

There is usually somebody who thinks corporations shouldn’t be treated like persons under the law.

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

That was one of several genuine questions I had. Dobbs? Business law?

Due process and privacy

Who tells us what to do, state or federal, and when

etc

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

Maybe you should talk to COH about using the Socratic method.

They aren’t law students, plus it’s a “survey” course - barely scratch the surface of issues

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

MTIOTF already said he is less of an asshole in class. Ya can’t do Socratic method without being that.

Disagree. Strongly.

 

[DANC]

Scared of whom? In my experience, young adults both in my family and with whom I work aren't even a little reticent about speaking their minds.

If they're telling you they're afraid, you need to do a better job of convincing them that they have nothing to fear, at least not in your class.

You should add something to your "opening day statement." In addition to announcing that you'll be discussing all sides of every issue, let them know that participation in discussions is conditioned on respect.

There will be zero tolerance for disrespectful comments or behavior. "Labeling" should also be taboo,

Oh, the irony is just too much.....