This latest abuse of power is wrong. Mark it down. As soon as the republicans get a chance hell will come down on the Biden Crime Family. They will probably raid the Alzheimer’s Unit where the “Big Guy” will be residing.
All joking aside
- Thread starter TMFT
- Start date
Even if that were true (it's not), they all remained U.S. government property, not Trump's. Your theory would just mean Trump is a thief instead of a spy. Doesn't help him.
If Trump really could change ownership just by taking government property to Mar-a-Lago, he must really be stupid. Rational takers would have gone to Fort Knox and taken some gold bars to Mar-a-Lago to change ownership.
Even if Trump truly didn't know (doubtful) either (1) what documents he asked to be shipped to Mar-a-Lago or (2) what documents were packed for shipment to Mar-a-Lago, Trump gained scienter as soon as NARA and the other agencies told him (as early as May 2021) that records indicated he possessed some documents he shouldn't have.
You can't prove Trump is innocent today by trying to prove Trump was innocent when he moved out on Jan. 20, 2021.
Trump says they have given them everything they've asked for when they've asked for it. If not true shouldn't they tell us what/when they asked for something and what Trump wouldn't turn over? If Trump was lying it seems like they'd say so.
So, are the documents the FBI planted grandfathered into Trump’s automatic declassification?
As you know, one of the ways the govt told Trump what they were asking for was by serving him with a grand jury subpoena in June 2022.
You know the govt can't talk about grand jury subpoenas but nonetheless you ask that the govt disclose it and talk about it. Then, you act like the govt's silence is suspicious, but you have said nothing to criticize Trump's lie about the Obama documents.
You're not being consistent.
Timeline
Mid-2021, they asked for all documents.
Jan 2022, they collected documents and were assured that was everything.
Spring 2022, they realize many docs are missing and ask for them.
June 2022, they collected 15? boxes of documents and were assured that was everything.
July 2022, upon analysis, many known docs are still missing. An informant gives info that they are STILL at Mar-a-Lago.
August 2022, they decided to go get the 20 boxes of documents still being hidden, after the January lies and the June lies.
There, now you are caught up with the lying.
If you don't like what I post don't read it. Or put me on ignore.
My hunch is you're only comfortable in an echo chamber, and that's not this. Opposing viewpoints, which you're not able to effectively refute, are unsettling for you. Maybe you're the one who should be stepping away.
The good thing about this board is that there are several people across the political spectrum who make meaningful contributions to the discussion. Unfortunately you're not one of them.
Being the owner of Truth Social does not equate to having "truth" on your side...
Some of the documents recovered from MAL had TS/SCI classifications. Here is a sitting member of Congress (Jim Himes) who sits on the House Intelligence Committee outlining the procedures he has to follow ANY TIME he wants to VIEW any material with that particular designation...
There is just no justification for any material with that designation to even be at MAL. Especially after Trump is no longer even POTUS...
Some of the documents recovered from MAL had TS/SCI classifications. Here is a sitting member of Congress (Jim Himes) who sits on the House Intelligence Committee outlining the procedures he has to follow ANY TIME he wants to VIEW any material with that particular designation...
There is just no justification for any material with that designation to even be at MAL. Especially after Trump is no longer even POTUS...
Did you really type IF Trump was lying?
The process to declassify something labelled TS/SCI would likely take months. And it would require a long list of established procedures, including the NOTIFICATION of ANYONE else with that level of security clearance (say the DEM and GOP members of the House Intel Committee) that the material they were handling in accordance with TS/SCI designation was no longer "classified" .He has to declassify it for EVERYONE, not just himself...
So, the smalltown conservative Republican endorses pure revenge to address claims of alleged abuse?
Sounds like you haven't learned a damned thing from the conservative Christians you represent.
You are so funny. How about all of Joe Biden's lies? Has Trump ever been convicted of anything like you keep telling us all he has been?
That is a wilfully deceptive claim, which is why the fact that an informant notified the DOJ is so critical. When the DOJ investigators, headed by Bratt went to MAL on June 3, they had a Grand Jury subpoena for specified documents THAT THEY WERE AWARE OF.
Since the boxes the FBI retrieved on Mon included material that was delegated TS/SCI that means that while the Investigators were there on June 3, the folks at MAL did NOT even bring up the additional documents which they knew they had but weren't specifically listed in the subpoena. They purposely omitted any discussion of those documents, even though they had been warned by the NARA since May of 2021, that they needed to return ALL the classified documents on hand.
We don't know WHY they omitted mentioning/providing the documents they knew they were supposed to return. But the fact that they had done so was made abundantly clear to DOJ when an informant (possibly Jared) reached out to DOJ and informed them there were additional documents at MAL beyond what Trump "willingly" returned.
The person knew of the existence and location of the safe, which means it was someone from Trump's inner circle. So everyone within the inner circle (7 or 8 people) would have to be privy to the same info as the informant. So all of them, including Trump were basically complicit in NOT advising DOJ that they had additional TS/SCI designated material, beyond what was listed on the subpoena .
Even if they mistakenly thought Trump had declassified them (which would have necessitated him making that known to EVERYONE in Congress with that clearance) they should at the very least have disclosed they had them so any security issues could have been dealt with properly.
These type of documents can only be viewed in a secured location, like a location within the Capitol where an armed guard is stationed and all communication devices are left outside. They contain sensitive info beyond just a TS clearance, and could easily include names of US operatives abroad. I have read that the FBI is even considering dusting them for fingerprints to determine if anyone who does not have that level of clearance has handled them. They definitely should NOT have been anywhere near MAL...
Whether jie Biden gas ever lied in his life
Stop it. No more of if this then maybe that.
Trump grabbed govt documents and shipped them to Mar-a-Lago and treated them as his own, ignoring several government requests to return them for more than 12 months. He even ignored a grand jury subpoena (which you probably have never even heard of) and refused to return the rest of the documents when asked.
Trump had no authority as President (or as ego-driven Trump family member) to take and keep government documents just because he used to be a President or is an exalted Trump family member.
Trump's actions speak for themselves. It is irrelevant to claim Trump's crimes are not as bad as some Democrat's alleged crimes or Atilla the Hun's,
You guys really sound desperate -- loudly desperate.
What thinking person cares what Trump said?
Trump has denied that German generals tried to kill Hitler during WWII. Trump has suggested that bleach could be used somehow to defeat the Covid virus. And on and on and on.
It's like I'm playing cards with my brother's kids or something.
You’re a damn liar. I didn’t endorse anything. Give me the exact words where I said I endorse. If not apologize.
It is and you know it. You’re a smart guy. You know exactly what this was about and it has nothing to do with documents and espionage.
Serious question: was Trump justified in taking government materials and not returning them when requested?
I don’t think Trump walked around the WH and packed up moving boxes. How that was done I don’t know. We have no idea what other presidents did because no one gave a damn and rummaged through their moving boxes. Right now I have no confidence in the FBI. No reason for me to not believe they could have planted documents.
I guess when the POS Garland prosecutes we will see the evidence.
The Dems with their TDS are going to assure victory for republicans in November and DeSantis in 2024.
So is that a yes or a no? Taking stuff might have been a simple matter of being sloppy, but what about not returning the stuff (especially the classified stuff) when requested?
We do not know if it is accurate yet, rumor is Trump's lawyer signed an affidavit in June that all confidential data was returned. How much do you think the maids packed? Why would critical data be lying around where the maids could pack it? Not the normal classified, but that stuff that is ultra classified.
If documents are required to be returned and requested to be returned they should be returned.
I don’t get why it’s a big deal with Trump. The documents were locked up as requested. I know it’s whutabout but the same standards weren’t applied to Clinton. Why not?
He may not pack suitcases, but briefcases are a different story.
I don't think this will become criminal, but the government had EVERY right to move in and secure the files. Especially if Trump's lawyer had certified none existed, in NCAA parlance that become lack of institutional control. Is anyone arguing the FBI should have let it be?
The GSA filled the boxes. It would be negligent to pack classified documents in the first place.
It would have been negligent for the archivists and the FBI to have left them there when they previously reviewed content before.
If all the facts are as you believe, I agree. As I told Goat, I no longer believe anything told to us by the leadership of the FBI or DOJ without 100% independent proof.
It doesn't matter what the facts are. Compare this to Clinton, I linked the thread in the other thread. It was not SoP for liberals to say the FBI was out to get Clinton.
Classified data must be secure. If Trump had some, or if the FBI believed he had some, their first priority is to secure it. If they believe I have some, they need to come and secure it. If they think Obama has some, they need to go get it. This is not hard.
I think we're being a tad flippant with the banter about who "packed" the boxes. There are only a select few people who have the clearance to even view TS/SCI level material. So if anyone who did NOT have that level of security clearance even touched, mess less "packed" those boxes that is an extremely damaging revelation. That is precisely the level of nonchalance that the NARA complained about regarding Trump's unwillingness to adhere to security protocol that they earlier observed when he was still in the WH...
Saying that Trump didn't "pack" the boxes is not exonerating, but rather damning. That TS/SCI designation is reserved for documents only allowed to be seen by a highly selective group of people in a secured (as in armed guard posted outside the door) type of location. People are required to pass thru metal detectors and surrender all electronic media devices prior to entering that location.
And the idea that Trump might have "declassified" them prior to leaving for MAL doesn't hold water either. With a TS/SCI designation, Trump can't just "declassify" them for his personal knowledge. He has to inform every other person who has clearance to handle them (like the House Intel Committee), because once they're declassified they are no longer restricted to people with that clearance.
That means they are no longer protected by armed guards and all of those security measures. But that level of declassification can't just be done "willy nilly" and often requires months to complete. And until everyone involved was notified and the security concerns were addressed, any claim by Trump that he declassified them is completely meritless.
The fact that whoever turned informer saw those type of markings, realized the implications and contacted the FBI to report it, removes any possible validity for Trump to claim he didn't know they were there. At the very least he exhibited gross negligence...
Are you saying Clinton kept documents she was requested to return? I don't think that's true. I don't think anyone ever claimed it was true.
Here are your exact words with your clear endorsement:
This latest abuse of power is wrong. Mark it down. As soon as the republicans get a chance hell will come down on the Biden Crime Family. They will probably raid the Alzheimer’s Unit where the “Big Guy” will be residing.
You called the search warrant an "abuse of power" and said it "is wrong." Then you gratuitously claimed that when the Republicans "get a chance" they would bring "hell" to the "Biden Crime Family" -- sure sounds like you expect revenge.
Then, you indicated your support with a flippant suggestion that the vengeful Republicans would find Joe Biden in an Alzheimers Unit -- standard Republican rightist talking points.
Maybe I would have taken your post in a different light had you included the name and address of a mental health charity in Washington, IN, with an appeal to everyone of all politics to send money to fight mental illness -- but you didn't do that. The only thing you were positive about was the suggestion of Republican vengeance. Why did you post like that about Republican vengeance and mental illness?
Have a good evening.
The specific procedures might have no bearing on whether or not Trump was incompetent and irresponsible, but they might still have a bearing on whether or not he is himself criminally liable for any of this, thanks to the various mens reas required by the statutes, and the precedent (often cited and disagreed with by Aloha) that these crimes haven't generally been prosecuted without provable malign intent.
"I don’t think"
"How that was done I don’t know"
"We have no idea"
"No reason for me to not believe"
"they could have"
It doesn't really sound like you have an informed opinion to pay attention to.
And, when Barron had his guys over for pizza and video games ... snoopy boys will be boys. And what about torn documents, and scotch brand cellophane tape and markings with Sharpies?
The whole point of having document security is not to have to ask questions about access and maids and snoopy boys and Sharpy pens.
But he was told by the archive people in May 2021 (and several more times thereafter) that records indicated that he had documents he shouldn't have.
Sticking his head in the sand (or a box) after that point doesn't excuse him.
The Trump documents were not locked up until sometime after June 2022, when the govt requested that they be locked up.
At this point no one cares about possible violations by Hillary Clinton or the late Colin Powell. Whatever they may have done does not exonerate Trump. Not really a very effective distraction.
