Adult illiteracy rates in big cities

[BradStevens]

The site which Bulk posted showed literacy by state and county. My grasp of this post illustrated to me that most states are fairly uniform in terms of literacy with a few counties being an exception.

Guess this shouldn't be surprising as state governments control education. The Dem v. Pub, and urban v. rural may be of less importance than one might think.

The problem with that chart, hoot1, is that the average literacy rate doesn't show what's important here.

For example, if you had a county like Cook with a lot of very highly literate people and a lot of illiterate people, you might get an average looking county. But that's not important--we don't want highly literate people offsetting the illiterate for these purposes, because, for these purposes we don't care how many people can read and enjoy Shakespeare, we want to know how many people can't figure out or who have difficulty with routine activities we might take for granted that require basic literacy skills (e.g, maybe this is one reason why non-asian minorities have fewer photo IDs?).
That's why I think we want just a straight up binary comp.

Here's a more thorough brief on the issue that cites most of the things you'd expect: poverty, illiteracy in the family, etc. as factors associated with illiteracy. It also finds:

"Results of a nationally representative survey from 2003 [20] in combination with US Census data from 2000 [21] show correlations between illiteracy, low income, low levels of education, and unemployment. All of these issues are concentrated in Southern states and urban locations. Possible explanations for the intersectionality of race, poverty, age, and incarceration will be outlined in the following sections."

Illiteracy Among Adults in the United States - Ballard Brief

Illiteracy affects a person’s ability to fully contribute to the world around them. About 18% of the US adult population is functionally illiterate.

ballardbrief.byu.edu

 

[DANC]

One of my favorite Rothbard quotes. As a kid in the middle of nowhere Indiana, I was exposed to plenty of "old men" who never finished high school or barely did, who could do many things that 95% of today's college grads couldn't figure out.

Figuring roof, stairs, grade, etc... is all trig and geometry. Second nature to carpenters, but put a book of either in front of them and they'd balk at trying to do it. Tell them you want stairs with a landing and they'll sketch it out on a piece of cardboard with all the math done in their head and measurements notated on the cardboard.

And many who study geometry couldn't put into practical application what they've learned.

Coming from the same neck of the woods, I know that, if you wanted things done, you either learned how to do it yourself or you knew someone who could help you out. Sunday afternoons, as a kid, I remember the family getting together and my dad and his brothers and cousins would work on each others cars, either souping them up or keeping them running. No one had the money to hire out help.

I think I was most impressed when my family put in indoor plumbing - with a well - for my grandparents. No more outhouse, although it was fun to go out and use it every once in a while.

 

[DANC]

What a crazy story. How is that dude not tits up after a week of being trapped in that truck?

Christmas miracle

 

[hoosboot]

You'd be lost from the jump.

I think the larger point remains on both sides of this "discussion" despite the need to take potshots at each other. There are certainly people who have incredible skills that exist outside of formal school and literacy, but there are also limits to the applications to some of those skills.

The ability to build a staircase is terrific, but it's not a skill that is expansive or leads to new skills. Math is terrific, but without real-world knowledge of how to apply it, it only exists in a theoretical universe.

 

[hoot1]

The problem with that chart, hoot1, is that the average literacy rate doesn't show what's important here.

For example, if you had a county like Cook with a lot of very highly literate people and a lot of illiterate people, you might get an average looking county. But that's not important--we don't want highly literate people offsetting the illiterate for these purposes, because, for these purposes we don't care how many people can read and enjoy Shakespeare, we want to know how many people can't figure out or who have difficulty with routine activities we might take for granted that require basic literacy skills (e.g, maybe this is one reason why non-asian minorities have fewer photo IDs?).
That's why I think we want just a straight up binary comp.

Here's a more thorough brief on the issue that cites most of the things you'd expect: poverty, illiteracy in the family, etc. as factors associated with illiteracy. It also finds:

"Results of a nationally representative survey from 2003 [20] in combination with US Census data from 2000 [21] show correlations between illiteracy, low income, low levels of education, and unemployment. All of these issues are concentrated in Southern states and urban locations. Possible explanations for the intersectionality of race, poverty, age, and incarceration will be outlined in the following sections."

Illiteracy Among Adults in the United States - Ballard Brief

Illiteracy affects a person’s ability to fully contribute to the world around them. About 18% of the US adult population is functionally illiterate.

ballardbrief.byu.edu

Brad, understand your argument against Bulk's average literacy findings and agree with most of the link about the problems associated with illiteracy.

What I find missing in all this is what can we do as a city, state, and nation to lower the illiteracy problem.

The former Indianapolis Superintendent of the Public Schools suggested that by the fifth grade it could be predicted a student was a candidate as an illiterate drop out. His solution ( which was never going to happen solution) was to remove the child from the family and send the student to an academic boot camp. His point being, solutions to the illiteracy problem required radical steps. So radical the public would never accept them.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

Literacy rate by county

This makes me appreciate how complex the topic is. On one hand, Brad's data illustrates that urban areas have real struggles around literacy, despite having more resources (in theory) to dedicate towards education. We've already talked about the toxic urban culture, so no need to rehash my opinion on that.

Then, we've got this map which clearly shows there are rural areas with weak literacy, which is also not a surprise given the lack of resources and some similar cultural problems as it relates to education, parenting, etc.

Next, you have this significant influence of Hispanic, ESL populace, which is more notable in areas of CA, TX. The impact of significant immigration (legal, illegal or otherwise) over the past couple of decades certainly impacts literacy rates of many areas.

Lastly, as Mark and Hoot point out, literacy isn't necessarily an indication that someone cannot function in society (work, pay taxes, be a good person, etc.). However, since we know there is a correlation between literacy and poverty, I would assume there would also be a positive correlation (though a weaker one vs. poverty) between literacy and things like crime. There are several papers out there, but I haven't had the chance to actually review.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

One of my favorite Rothbard quotes. As a kid in the middle of nowhere Indiana, I was exposed to plenty of "old men" who never finished high school or barely did, who could do many things that 95% of today's college grads couldn't figure out.

Figuring roof, stairs, grade, etc... is all trig and geometry. Second nature to carpenters, but put a book of either in front of them and they'd balk at trying to do it. Tell them you want stairs with a landing and they'll sketch it out on a piece of cardboard with all the math done in their head and measurements notated on the cardboard.

I'm in that camp, admittedly. I grew up in a lower middle class household, but my dad wasn't handy and used a neighbor to help fix things. Unfortunately, young me was too busy wanting to go play in the yard or hang with friends to realize what I was missing.

I've always been a bit envious of those that can just pick up raw materials and create things. I don't have that type of brain to begin with, and since I didn't get much exposure as a child, I find it frustrating vs. cathartic, as many men do.

But hey, at least I know how to shitpost on an internet message board!

 

[hookyIU1990]

But hey, at least I know how to shitpost on an internet message board!

That's just the logical next step from the shit talking that went on as things were getting fixed.

In an unorthodox way, you've managed to carry on that tradition.

 

[mcmurtry66]

I'm in that camp, admittedly. I grew up in a lower middle class household, but my dad wasn't handy and used a neighbor to help fix things. Unfortunately, young me was too busy wanting to go play in the yard or hang with friends to realize what I was missing.

I've always been a bit envious of those that can just pick up raw materials and create things. I don't have that type of brain to begin with, and since I didn't get much exposure as a child, I find it frustrating vs. cathartic, as many men do.

But hey, at least I know how to shitpost on an internet message board!

my dad could do both. went to vietnam. was a jet engine mechanic. super good at fixing stuff. strongest guy i've ever met. got his degrees and did the business thing for 20 years and up and quit and did construction for the next 30. said construction was a way happier existence. at the end of the day when work was done at 3 it was just done. didn't bring shit home or the worry home like business etc. and every day you saw progress

 

[hookyIU1990]

The ability to build a staircase is terrific, but it's not a skill that is expansive or leads to new skills. Math is terrific, but without real-world knowledge of how to apply it, it only exists in a theoretical universe.

The staircase is just one example within carpentry. The trades are basically the application of real-world knowledge rooted in math.

 

[hoosboot]

The staircase is just one example within carpentry. The trades are basically the application of real-world knowledge rooted in math.

I have immense respect for carpenters, but the point remains.

 

[hookyIU1990]

I have immense respect for carpenters, but the point remains.

I guess I'm missing it then.

 

[hoosboot]

I guess I'm missing it then.

Okay. Maybe next topic we'll find a way to communicate better.

 

[DANC]

I guess I'm missing it then.

Evidently he can't define his point. lol

 

[hoosboot]

Evidently he can't define his point. lol

Communication is a two-way street, my brother, and it's pretty plainly stated. I can't help it if you can't understand the written word. Maybe that's because you and hooky seem more interested in potshots than communicating. A nice touch of irony in a thread about illiteracy.

 

[hookyIU1990]

Okay. Maybe next topic we'll find a way to communicate better.

I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but I'm left to believe that you think without a formal education, a person is something less than those who have a formal education. That's the only point I can draw from your comment and it's puzzling because I've never gotten that from previous posts of yours on other topics.

 

[DANC]

Communication is a two-way street, my brother, and it's pretty plainly stated. I can't help it if you can't understand the written word. Maybe that's because you and hooky seem more interested in potshots than communicating. A nice touch of irony in a thread about illiteracy.

Well, communicate then. No one is stopping you from stating your point here.

Everyone knew the point Hookey was making and it was a valid one. Your point, evidently, was to denigrate skills such as carpentry.

If that's not the point, what is it?

 

[Bloom.]

You'd be lost from the jump.

LOL - no.

And people call me arrogant. Stick to topics, even the tangents, and quit trying to assess other people outside of this board. I'm not out there building house, but you suck at it.

 

[BradStevens]

Brad, understand your argument against Bulk's average literacy findings and agree with most of the link about the problems associated with illiteracy.

What I find missing in all this is what can we do as a city, state, and nation to lower the illiteracy problem.

The former Indianapolis Superintendent of the Public Schools when faced with the problem of knowing by the fifth grade whether a student was a candidate as an illiterate drop out suggested the never was going to happen solution of removing the child from the family and sending the student to an academic boot camp.

What we can do is where I’d love to see the discussion go.

If you think the rates are too high and it is possible to fix them, I think the benefit would be worth it. It would help a larger % of those we want to “help themselves” do so. Yes, one can make it in the world without learning to read, but it is much, much harder.

And you wouldn’t be able to read all these illuminating posts on the WC. Imagine the hell of such a life.

 

[hookyIU1990]

LOL - no.

And people call me arrogant. Stick to topics, even the tangents, and quit trying to assess other people outside of this board. I'm not out there building house, but you suck at it.

I'd suck at what, building houses? Yeah, I would. But I'm at least smart enough to know what I don't know.

Your comment was arrogant AF, so I called you on it. Based on your posting, you have a hard time not being the smartest guy in the room.

 

[DANC]

I'd suck at what, building houses? Yeah, I would. But I'm at least smart enough to know what I don't know.

Your comment was arrogant AF, so I called you on it. Based on your posting, you have a hard time not being the smartest guy in the room.

I doubt he's even the smartest guy in the gym.

 

[Bloom.]

I guess I'm missing it then.

You likely are.

Learning trades are great. It doesn't have to be in lieu of an education. In that it might've been at some point due to a lack of interest or perceived lack of access, but it's tackled by not entering adulthood uneducated and/or illiterate.

Today's kids are learning trades while getting educated. Doesn't make them better people, but it does give them more option. Education provides that.

 

[mcmurtry66]

at least smart enough to know what I don't know.

enlightened. this is not unlike what socrates said. well done. and socrates the greek philospher. not socrates the brazilian soccer player who was one of the finest players ever to play. a very unorthodox central mf at nearly 6'5. my god how he could dice up a 4-4-2. oh and by the way. he was also a medical doctor and chain smoker

 

[Bloom.]

I'd suck at what, building houses? Yeah, I would. But I'm at least smart enough to know what I don't know.

Your comment was arrogant AF, so I called you on it. Based on your posting, you have a hard time not being the smartest guy in the room.

You suck at commenting about other people.

You're acting like understanding rise and run are exclusive to people who do it for a living. I just said it wasn't that tough, so you insult me. Building stairs is medium work. It's not the first thing you try to conquer, but depending on the scope and desired craftsmanship, it can range from easy to difficult. I'm smart enough to know I've built stairs before.

I've replaced contoured stairs in a house built in the 1920's, installed floating stairs and installed stair/ramp system for my grandparents. GFY troll.

 

[mcmurtry66]

I'd suck at what, building houses? Yeah, I would. But I'm at least smart enough to know what I don't know.

Your comment was arrogant AF, so I called you on it. Based on your posting, you have a hard time not being the smartest guy in the room.

socrates, zico, junior, falcao and on and on. my god. until spain's golden generation this was probably as good as it got

 

[mcmurtry66]

I'd suck at what, building houses? Yeah, I would. But I'm at least smart enough to know what I don't know.

Your comment was arrogant AF, so I called you on it. Based on your posting, you have a hard time not being the smartest guy in the room.

and honestly socrates and zico could have started on any side in any generation. they were that gifted. the world didn't know through balls until zico came along

 

[BradStevens]

and honestly socrates and zico could have started on any side in any generation. they were that gifted. the world didn't know through balls until zico came along

@Univee2 , clean up in aisle 9.

 

[mcmurtry66]

@Univee2 , clean up in aisle 9.

do you know what they used to call zico? in brasil? the white pele

 

[mcmurtry66]

@Univee2 , clean up in aisle 9.

let's go ahead and tie this bow. you know they didn't win the world cup that year. they lost to italy. italy with a hat trick from the legend himself. paolo rossi. the legend dino zoff in goal. franco baresi. wow wow wow. and THAT wasn't even the final. italy beat WEST germany in the final at the santiago bernabeu. and that wasn't just any old WEST germany. karl heinz rummenigge, lothar matthaus, schumacher, breitner, briegel STOP IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[mcmurtry66]

this turned into a pretty nice little thread

 

[mcmurtry66]

@Univee2 , clean up in aisle 9.

oh. they just happened to play with the greatest ball ever made

 

[BradStevens]

oh. they just happened to play with the greatest ball ever made

 

[mcmurtry66]

now the kids in the room might not remember @larsIU, but before there were copas there were world cups in 82. and those my friend WERE FIRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

enlightened. this is not unlike what socrates said. well done. and socrates the greek philospher. not socrates the brazilian soccer player who was one of the finest players ever to play. a very unorthodox central mf at nearly 6'5. my god how he could dice up a 4-4-2. oh and by the way. he was also a medical doctor and chain smoker

A chain smoking soccer player? I could see it in baseball where athletics matter little (@Univee2 ), but a “sport” (also for @Univee2 ) where you are running at least 7 miles per game? Yeesh.

 

[mcmurtry66]

A chain smoking soccer player? I could see it in baseball where athletics matter little (@Univee2 ), but a “sport” (also for @Univee2 ) where you are running at least 7 miles per game? Yeesh.

many of the euros were smokers. i presume south americans too

 

[DANC]

You suck at commenting about other people.

You're acting like understanding rise and run are exclusive to people who do it for a living. I just said it wasn't that tough, so you insult me. Building stairs is medium work. It's not the first thing you try to conquer, but depending on the scope and desired craftsmanship, it can range from easy to difficult. I'm smart enough to know I've built stairs before.

I've replaced contoured stairs in a house built in the 1920's, installed floating stairs and installed stair/ramp system for my grandparents. GFY troll.

I can see why you are a moderator.....

@Jim Coyle how do you justify having this guy as a moderator?

 

[Univee2]

A chain smoking soccer player? I could see it in baseball where athletics matter little (@Univee2 ), but a “sport” (also for @Univee2 ) where you are running at least 7 miles per game? Yeesh.

Good fvckin’ grief. I just came in from four hours of leaf duty, on one fvckin’ knee that’s two weeks old. Ruined those knees of mine from many hours behind home plate, using the two hands and arms God intended for sport. None of this “I keek a ball” and “somebody runs by me and I fall down injured.”

Guys in The Show smoked in the clubhouse and the dugout. Hell, guys in the NBA and ABA smoked at halftime.

Put the s***** goofs with the football, basketball, wrestling and baseball guys and see who’s crying for their mama.

 

[Univee2]

this turned into a pretty nice little thread

. . . . For me to poop on.

Thanks, Brad, for the heads up. No KC fines for you for all of 2024 (but don’t go too far with s*****-with-teeth items).

I think the Court will be mining McMurty’s Bitcoin accounts for next year’s funding.

 

[mcmurtry66]

seeing keith hernandez smoking in the clubhouse instantly ended my childhood

Good fvckin’ grief. I just came in from four hours of leaf duty, on one fvckin’ knee that’s two weeks old. Ruined those knees of mine from many hours behind home plate, using the two hands and arms God intended for sport. None of this “I keek a ball” and “somebody runs by me and I fall down injured.”

Guys in The Show smoked in the clubhouse and the dugout. Hell, guys in the NBA and ABA smoked at halftime.

Put the s***** goofs with the football, basketball, wrestling and baseball guys and see who’s crying for their mama.

 

[Univee2]

seeing keith hernandez smoking in the clubhouse instantly ended my childhood

That would have been on a sober day, then.