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3 players drafted in 8 years

Crean has been lucky in some of his recent recruits.

TB was favoring Syracuse, but then it looked like they were going on probation. Then TB waited out who was leaving from Kentucky, but never received an offer. Devin and Hanner toke their way off the team, then Max becomes available (just how fortunate was THAT?).
Possibly...but in listening to TB talk about his IU experience so far, his coach and teammates, and opting to stay in school when he could've easily left-- does anyone (especially him) think he made the wrong decision?

Also, that circumstantially lucky scenario you paint plays out with every team, every year. Contrary to belief, even Calipari doesn't get every guy he offers (see James Blackmon, Jr)
 
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Exactly.

If we were Illinois - or Purdue - Tom Crean might be good enough. But not at Indiana.

Do we agree on the following three points:

1. We probably are not going to hire great.
2. We could hire good, and given the advantages of IU, chances are very high that greatness would be achieved fairly quickly (depending on the quality of the hire, of course).
3. The possibility does exist (however faint) that CTC could reach greatness at IU, given time.

I think #1 is a reality as much as we don't want it to be. There are few currently great coaches walking around looking for a job.
I think #2 is spot on, as well.
The problem is #3, and the disagreements exist on several levels. Is CTC even capable of greatness? What is the probability he will ever achieve it if it is possible? If he is capable, what is the timeframe? What is greatness (I liked your definition of elite, btw)?

To some, the answers are "no", "0%", 'N/A", and some sliding scale of greatness. On the other end of the spectrum, the opinion is that he has already achieved it. The gap between these two points of view is huge.

On this board, the "pro-Creaners" are more toward the middle of the spectrum than the "anti-Creaners", who tend to be much more toward the end overall.

Me? I'm to the slight pro-Crean side of the sprectrum, but this year is crucial. Not only can't he afford to regress, but he must show some progress as well. Holding steady is not an option.
 
Can you name 20 better coaches?
Using what criteria? How about SOS adj win percentage....where he's barely in the top 50.

S.Miller
M.Kryzeweski
B.Self
G.Marshall
J.Calipari
M.Few
R.Pitino
T.Matta
B.Underwood
S.Fisher
J.Boehiem
R.Williams
L.Krystowiak
S. Smart
T.Izzo
T.Bennett
S.Prohm
M.Cronin
M.Brey
J.Beilien
J.Wright
C.Holtman
J.Thompson III
K.Ollie
D.Altman
J.Larranaga
L.Kruger
 
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Can you name 20 better coaches?
Why 20? We aren't looking to be just a top 20. We want to be a top 10 and yes there is at least 10 better.
1. k
2. Izzo
3. Calipari
4. Roy
5. Boeheim
6. wright
7. self
8. Marshall
9. s. Miller
10. Bennett
11. Smart
12: Matta
13: few
 
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Using what criteria? How about SOS adj win percentage....where he's not in the top 50.

G.Marshall
M.Few
S. Smart
J.Beilien
B.McKillop
S.Miller
R.Pitino
T.Izzo
T.Bennett
B.Underwood
B.Self
J.Thompson III
S.Fisher
M.Kryzeweski
T.Matta
L.Brown
M.Cronin
D.Altman
M.Brey
R.Williams
J.Calipari
T.Cluess
C.Holtman
L.Kruger
Coaches who Crean is better on your list
Underwood
Thompson III
Cronin
Brey
Cluess
Holtman
Also right now I think Crean is as good as Beilein and Matta and I mean right now and not 6 years ago. Also I am not that high on S. Smart and don't think he is any better than Crean.
 
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Using what criteria? How about SOS adj win percentage....where he's not in the top 50.

G.Marshall
M.Few
S. Smart
J.Beilien
B.McKillop
S.Miller
R.Pitino
T.Izzo
T.Bennett
B.Underwood
B.Self
J.Thompson III
S.Fisher
M.Kryzeweski
T.Matta
L.Brown
M.Cronin
D.Altman
M.Brey
R.Williams
J.Calipari
T.Cluess
C.Holtman
L.Kruger
Can't you name anyone?!?!?

<snicker>
 
Matta has finished 5th, 6th, and 7th in the big ten the last three years. Is he really better?
 
Why 20? We aren't looking to be just a top 20. We want to be a top 10 and yes there is at least 10 better.
1. k
2. Izzo
3. Calipari
4. Roy
5. Boeheim
6. wright
7. self
8. Marshall
9. s. Miller
10. Bennett
11. Smart
12: Matta

As of today I don't think I would put Matta that high and I am not that high on S. Smart as well. Also who on this lost would we be able to hire if we fired Crean today.
 
Coaches who Crean is better on your list
Underwood
Thompson III
Cronin
Brey
Cluess
Holtman
Also right now I think Crean is as good as Beilein and Matta and I mean right now and not 6 years ago. Also I am not that high on S. Smart and don't think he is any better than Crean.
Based on what Scott? Your biased ever changing subjective arbitrary feelings?
 
Steve fisher really? Would he be on your list if his players weren't paid and probably would have went elsewhere while he was at Michgan?
 
I don't see Bryant ever going that high. He will be a great player but he isn't the athlete vonleh or Zeller were and the NBA likes athletes
Just going by what all of the early mock draft sites (CBS, draftexpress, SI) are saying...he's in the top 10 in all of them. The NBA also likes big, aggressive, high IQ players who can rebound and shoot.
 
Matta has finished 5th, 6th, and 7th in the big ten the last three years. Is he really better?
That list is in order of SOS weighted winning percentage over the last 5 years - I only used the top 25+, because I didn't want to argue about some of the odd names higher than Crean on the list and that have had better winning percentages in that time.

Using an SOS weight balances the playing field a bit and keeps guys like Marshall and Few from having skewed numbers from playing in less competitive conferences.

fwiw if viewed using a SOS weighted win percentage, Crean is at 47 of 351 coaches and if you also notice every championship coach in recent history is much higher.

Coaching is about winning, I don't think there's a better measure available and it's certainly better that an arbitrary opinion based on nothing but bias and feelings.

Scoreboard ..
 
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Just going by what all of the early mock draft sites (CBS, draftexpress, SI) are saying...he's in the top 10 in all of them. The NBA also likes big, aggressive, high IQ players who can rebound and shoot.
Well he needs to improve as a rebounder because he wasn't that good at it last year.
 
As of today I don't think I would put Matta that high and I am not that high on S. Smart as well. Also who on this lost would we be able to hire if we fired Crean today.
I don't know but money changes a lot of peoples minds.
 
Lets see your list. I am all eyes.

seriously? Izzo, Matta, and Beilein are all much more accomplished than Tom Crean. That can't be refuted. Check the record. And obviously Ryan accomplished much more before he retired.

but love the absolute denial of the pro-Creaners. in their world conference titles and S16s > conference titles, conf. tourney titles, and NCAA championship game appearances. my word!

listen, if you have to bend reality to make your guy fit than he doesn't fit. just wow.
 
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seriously? Izzo, Matta, and Beilein are all much more accomplished than Tom Crean. That can't be refuted. Check the record. And obviously Ryan accomplished much more before he retired.

but love the absolute denial of the pro-Creaners. in their world conference titles and S16s > conference titles, conf. tourney titles, and NCAA championship game appearances. my word!

listen, if you have to bend reality to make your guy fit than he doesn't fit. wow.
No one is saying historically those coaches has not accomplished more but we are talking 2016 and not the past.
 
Matta has finished 5th, 6th, and 7th in the big ten the last three years. Is he really better?

crean finished 7th and 8th just 2 and 3 years ago and missed all tourneys one year. all...of...them.

Matta's done all you can do in this profession minus winning it all.
 
If you gave me a choice today which coach I would want going forward I would take Crean over Matta. Matta has health issues and in the last year he has lost 4 players form the same recruiting class.
So? We are talking who the better coach is. Also how many has crean lost since 13?
 
So? We are talking who the better coach is. Also how many has crean lost since 13?

The record for both coaches the last 5 years. OSU in that span has played 8 more games.

OSU IU
21-14 27-8
24-11 20-14
25-10 17-15
29-8 29-7
31-8 27-9

13-51 72% 120-53 70%
So the last 5 years it has been pretty close for the two coaches.
 
So? We are talking who the better coach is. Also how many has crean lost since 13?

hahaha matta has been past the S16 at two schools. ha won reg season and conf tourney titles in three conferences. been to 2 final fours. has 5 big ten titles. and IU SCOTT will still tell you he wants crean, who he wanted fired a year ago.

he's a thread killer for sure. lol
 
The record for both coaches the last 5 years. OSU in that span has played 8 more games.

OSU IU
21-14 27-8
24-11 20-14
25-10 17-15
29-8 29-7
31-8 27-9

13-51 72% 120-53 70%
So the last 5 years it has been pretty close for the two coaches.
apply an SOS weight or it basically means nothing.
 
hahaha matta has been past the S16 at two schools. ha won reg season and conf tourney titles in three conferences. been to 2 final fours. has 5 big ten titles. and IU SCOTT will still tell you he wants crean, who he wanted fired a year ago.

he's a thread killer for sure. lol
I said going forward I would take Crean because of Matta health concerns and the record the last 5 years are pretty similar. Ask this to me 3 years ago it is Matt hands down but not now.
 
The record for both coaches the last 5 years. OSU in that span has played 8 more games.

OSU IU
21-14 27-8
24-11 20-14
25-10 17-15
29-8 29-7
31-8 27-9

13-51 72% 120-53 70%
So the last 5 years it has been pretty close for the two coaches.

minus the FF, E8, and a conf tourney title...that's all...oh, and we had a MUCH weaker non-conf schedule too. scott, you are terrible at this. just terrible. back to ignore with you. smdh
 
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minus the FF, E8, and a conf tourney title...that's all...oh, and we had a MUCH weaker non-conf schedule too. scott, you are terrible that this. just terrible. back to ignore with you. smdh

What is so hard to understand, I said I would take Matta's history but if I had a choice of one coach going forward I would take Crean.
 
Well he needs to improve as a rebounder because he wasn't that good at it last year.
Agreed, and probably even more so as a rim protector and shot blocker....kid was a freshmen, learning the game last year. I think most people expect to see him and OG make huge improvements this year.
 
What is so hard to understand, I said I would take Matta's history but if I had a choice of one coach going forward I would take Crean.

got it. who ever just won the conference is the best coach. Crean is better than Izzo now. Wapners on at 430. got it. got it!
 
Do we agree on the following three points:

1. We probably are not going to hire great.
2. We could hire good, and given the advantages of IU, chances are very high that greatness would be achieved fairly quickly (depending on the quality of the hire, of course).
3. The possibility does exist (however faint) that CTC could reach greatness at IU, given time.

I think #1 is a reality as much as we don't want it to be. There are few currently great coaches walking around looking for a job.
I think #2 is spot on, as well.
The problem is #3, and the disagreements exist on several levels. Is CTC even capable of greatness? What is the probability he will ever achieve it if it is possible? If he is capable, what is the timeframe? What is greatness (I liked your definition of elite, btw)?

To some, the answers are "no", "0%", 'N/A", and some sliding scale of greatness. On the other end of the spectrum, the opinion is that he has already achieved it. The gap between these two points of view is huge.

On this board, the "pro-Creaners" are more toward the middle of the spectrum than the "anti-Creaners", who tend to be much more toward the end overall.

Me? I'm to the slight pro-Crean side of the sprectrum, but this year is crucial. Not only can't he afford to regress, but he must show some progress as well. Holding steady is not an option.

#1. Has anyone ever "hired" great (serious question)?

#2 I look at a guy like Gregg Marshall, or a guy like Chris Mack and wonder how they would do in a place like IU - especially Mack. I love the way Xavier plays defense (my kid goes there and we went to 3-4 games last year).

#3 At one time I thought Tom Crean might be #2. That was before I met people who showed me things about basketball that good team do consistently. I believe you could give Crean another 5 years and the results won't vary much from what they've been, if at all.
 
got it. who ever just won the conference is the best coach. Crean is better than Izzo now. Wapners on at 430. got it. got it!
Add the health concerns and yes I would take Crean plus the two conference championships in the last 4 years. Also it looks like going into this year that we should be better than OSU.
 
Add the health concerns and yes I would take Crean plus the two conference championships in the last 4 years. Also it looks like going into this year that we should be better than OSU.

whatever. you blabbed literally 1000 times that you wanted him fired this very time last year. you don't really have opinions. you just want to fight.

whatever.
 
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