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You want to fix today's health cost in the US?

Don't bother, Marv. Rock laid it all out above

And for the record, I have said all through this thread that I agree about the poor and impoverished.

What about the piece I linked above that speaks about the higher income folks becoming obese at 2X the rate as the poor. These people have the means for fitness, but in MOST cases, choose not to.

I grilled out last night. Grilled fish and fresh veggies. We did have potatoes as well, and I had ice water to drink. After, my wife and I walked our 3.1 mile route. Now, if my doctor told me I had told me I had 6 mos to live, I probably would have had a greasy double cheeseburger, or 5 pieces of pizza, and beer. And would have enjoyed that a heck of a lot more than more than fish and veggies. But I didn't.

I am not speaking of the urban core and its issues with obesity. I am talking about Carmel, and Avon, and Center Grove (where I live), and its issues with sedentary lifestyles (see, I didn't use lazy. I am learning). Kids that come home from school and sit in front of their $400 Xbox and eat Cheetos for hours. And don't tell me they don't. I see it first hand from my kids friends, and hear it from their parents. My wife works at the middle school, and obesity is every bit the problem in Center Grove Middle as it is Shortridge Middle.

Until somebody figures out how to fix this epidemic, (and yes, that is what it is), and not just tell me the 15 excuses for it, we are going to continue down this road.

You and Rock like charts, so here are a couple.




But, by all means, let's continue to stick our heads in the sand.

And no, it is 9:50am Friday morning, and I am not drunk.

I get a lot of patients that are 275-300+ lbs and they all have one thing in common. They all claim to "barely eat" and "try to take care of" themselves. Well, short of an undiagnosed case of hypothyroidism, you don't "barely eat" and even remotely "take care of" yourself and tip the scales at 300+. You just don't. They also all claim to "stay very busy" just so you don't assume they got to 300+ by being lazy. Staying busy and all is fine and dandy, but "busy" doesn't necessarily = exercise and calorie burning. I am perfectly capable of "staying busy" all day while not doing 2 seconds of actual exercise.
 
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IUJIM, we all agree with you about reducing obesity and exercising more.

But what about Rock's point that we charge more for services that even the healthiest among us need from time to time?
 
IUJIM, we all agree with you about reducing obesity and exercising more.

But what about Rock's point that we charge more for services that even the healthiest among us need from time to time?
It appears to be a problem. I readily admit that I am not as up to speed on that topic as others here. Is it the fault of our doctors, hospitals, insurance, big pharma?? I don't know. My guess is "all the above".

What does make sense to me is "data in, data out". An the US is off the charts obese, relative to other developed countries. Medical outcomes of obese people must be worse than thin people, don't they?
 
It appears to be a problem. I readily admit that I am not as up to speed on that topic as others here. Is it the fault of our doctors, hospitals, insurance, big pharma?? I don't know. My guess is "all the above".

What does make sense to me is "data in, data out". An the US is off the charts obese, relative to other developed countries. Medical outcomes of obese people must be worse than thin people, don't they?
I think the point some are trying to make is this: if it costs $10K to have a heart attack in France, and $20K to have a heart attack in the US, perhaps focusing on the cause of the heart attack is deflecting from the more serious problem. Keep on mind, this thread didn't start with "How to be healthier..." It started with "How to lower costs..." What you are essentially arguing is that the best way to combat price gouging is to do whatever you can to avoid having to purchase the product, and then pray it works.

Why can't we help people learn to be healthier, while at the same time also deal with he price gouging?
 
Screw you.

I quit smoking in 1993.

I use to play volleyball 3 times a week, walk 18-54 holes of golf a week, and walk every night.

I quit volleyball because I also had flat feet and I'd wake up in the middle of the night with calf muscle cramps so severe I woke my kids up screaming. Went to 4 different podiatrists and tried all their remedies. Nothing helped. Most recent one said "don't use treadmills either."

I quit walking the golf course because discs in my back caused me to feel like I was getting stabbed in the left side.
Doc won't operate because he says "can't guarantee relief when its a nerve issue." On top of that, I now have rheumatoid arthritis - which has nothing to do with being fat. I no longer golf.
I am really busy this weekend, but will offer an explanation next week. Since it is clear you are using "lazy fat ass" as a pejorative, maybe you can take some time to explain why it is so hard to stop being a dumb ass? I thought it was pretty easy personally, what did I miss? I was going to let the first few times slide as posting while drunk, but now the root cause is more clear.

Which is harder to stop being, a fat ass or a dumb ass?

I went through a clinical weight loss program 3 times. Lost 69 pounds the first time, 38 pounds the second and 25 the third. Cost me thousands each time. Thousands I don't have for my kids college.

Recent case law decision here in Kentucky involved the issue whether morbid obesity is a "disability" under the law. Prior cases - based on federal regulations - said "only if/when it is “the result of a physiological condition.” The expert witness in the case had performed over 2000 gastric bypass surgeries. He was asked what caused the plainitiff's morbid obesity. He answered, “Boy, if you could tell me the answer to that we would both get rich.” He added that “[n]obody has been able to elucidate the cause of anybody's morbid obesity anywhere in the world…”.

You think you know why people are fat? You don't.
If you think its just overeating, you're probably wrong.

It's clear that obesity is rising and that rising obesity contributes to rising health care costs. But shaming supposed lazy fat asses -- particularly poor "lazy fat asses" -- is cruel, unproductive, and mostly beside the point.

As to obesity, where are the policy proposals? When New York Mayor Bloomberg tried to ban Big Gulps conservatives ridiculed him, but at least he was trying to address the problem. How about banning trans fats? Ending subsidies that make high fructose corn syrup such a ubiquitous additive? Requiring producers of unhealthy foods to place a conspicuous warning label on them? How about making health a priority in childhood education? Instead of shaming "lazy fat asses" it would make much more sense to actually think about the problem.

Having said so, it just isn't true (as the OP claims) that we can solve our problems by shaming people who are overweight. It's impossible to assess the costs of our own system without comparing our system to those that exist in other countries. As I've pointed out countless times, the other developed countries spend about half of what we pay per capita for outcomes that are at least as good as ours -- and they cover everyone. Americans are more likely to be obese than those in other developed countries, but people elsewhere drink and smoke a lot more than we do. I'm unaware of any study that has established that our much higher costs are due to an unhealthier American population.

It is beyond doubt, however, that our unit prices -- for everything from ambulance rides to prescription drugs to medical devices to (especially) hospital stays -- are much higher. That's because, unlike every other developed country, our government doesn't involve itself in rate-setting:

Steven Brill started his cover story in this week's Time magazine with a simple health-policy question: "Why exactly are the bills so high?"

His article is essentially a 26,000-word answer, the longest story that the magazine has ever run by a single author. It's worth reading in full, but if you're looking for a quick summary, the article seemed to me to boil down to one sentence: The American health-care system does not use rate-setting.

Much of Brill's piece focuses on the absurdly high prices that hospitals and doctors charge for the most mundane items. A single Tylenol tablet can cost $1.50 when "you can buy 100 of them on Amazon for $1.49 even without a hospital’s purchasing power." One patient gets charged $6 for a marker used to mark his body before surgery. Another is billed $77 for each of four boxes of gauze used.

One hospital, according to Brill's math, bills $1,200 per hour for one nurse's services.

"Over the past few decades, we’ve enriched the labs, drug companies, medical device makers, hospital administrators and purveyors of CT scans, MRIs, canes and wheelchairs," Brill concludes. "Meanwhile ... we’ve squeezed everyone outside the system who gets stuck with the bills."

In other countries, that cannot happen: Their federal governments set rates for what both private and public plans can charge for various procedures. Those countries have tended to see much lower growth in health-care costs.

What sets our really expensive health-care system apart from most others isn't necessarily the fact it's not single-payer or universal. It's that the federal government does not regulate the prices that health-care providers can charge.
This is in effect a massive ongoing redistribution of income to health carer providers from everyone else -- for which we get nothing but what residents of other countries get at half the price. It's in this context that I reject suggestions that we seek to cut our health care costs by shaming "lazy fat asses".

Some Thoughts

The effects of obesity are obvious. No matter how our costs compare with others, it should be unarguable our costs would be less with less obesity. But the obesity is not the problem in and of itself. Being overweight is not necessarily unhealthy. The unhealthiness stems from the side effects of obesity such as hypertension, diabetes, heart disease, knee replacements, back issues, and more. If we can do one thing to cut health care costs, we need to reverse the growing incidence of type II diabetes. By far the highest frequency condition in any medical ward in any hospital will be a patient with this condition. Good genes can avoid the condition, but even for those who are genetically predisposed, lifestyle choices are the trigger. Heart disease is similar although that has more of a genetic component for some than does diabetes.

For the vast majority of overweight people, the cause is simple, personal choice. A personal example. For 40 years or so, I was gaining about 1lb per year. Then, with the hormone shots in connection with prostate cancer, I gained 25 lbs in 18 months. Yikes. Getting that off is a struggle. I can easily excuse my weight by the hormonal changes. They are permanently messed up. I've done the research. It all boils down to food intake. I know I can get it off by changing food intake. I also know that I choose to eat foods that are counterproductive to that; because I like them and enjoy them.

I don't buy the notion that poverty causes weight gain. Rather, the same conditions influence both. My grocer is a King Soopers (Kroger) that serves the infill neighborhood I reside in as well as the thousands of people living in what some might call a low income food desert. On every trip to the grocer, I see obese people with carts full of crap as they walk past the same pile of honey-crisp apples I routinely stop at. Again personal choice. We have found a couple of breakfast joints in the 'hood that we enjoy, mostly because the green chili is outstanding at both. I watch morbidly obese people in the same joints eating mounds of biscuits and sausage gravy with a side of hash browns while I am eating a couple over easy smothered in chili with dry wheat toast on the side. Again personal choice. I learned in the steel mills 50+ years ago that soul food is fattening. We just returned from a family outing at Disney World; where for obvious reasons there are no poor people. The numbers of obese people in the parks in wheel chairs and electric carts was amazing. Watching what they were eating was astounding. They obviously couldn't ride many of the attractions, they usually had a gaggle of kids around the carts and chairs. Again personal choice. In their defense, though, there is very little healthy choices inside the parks.

One point, though is worth exploring--knowledge. I know what food I should eat. I know what food I like to eat. There is always a tension there. While I have cut cold turkey some bad foods, I still make choices that are not the best. I do that knowingly. On the other hand, millions of people make choices based upon what they like and don't have a clue about why they should make other choices. The remedy is knowledge not more money.

Exercise. For lots of reasons, I'm not biking 2k+ miles / year like I used to. When I try to exercise like I used to, I end up with tendonitis in my shoulder, knee or some other joint, so I take it easy. That's called age. But I know I must continue to do what I can. Others aren't similarly motivated. That is definitely a choice. I see many people parking in the handicapped spots, with the appropriate stickers, and as far as I can see the only disability is being fat and the lack of mobility. I don't know what needs to be done to get people off their ass and on their feet, but we need to think about that. FWIW, I recently took myself on a daylight tour of recent scenes of gang shootings in Denver. at these locations I saw new playground equipment, many basket ball courts, and rec-centers. The courts and playgrounds were empty, I don't know about the rec-centers. Walking shoes are cheap.

I am well aware of the research about food deserts and lack of exercise opportunities. Neither is true for the 'hood here. King Soopers, Super Walmart, and Super Target are easily accessed. For the poor like it is for everybody else, the far and away largest cause of obesity is the personal choices we make at every meal.

The $2 Tylenol. I know about that being problem. But that stuff is a drop in the bucket. Hospital costs are out of control. Within a 50 mile radius of my home, there are probably 15 new hospitals (10 years old or less), or significantly remodeled ones. Bricks and mortar are expensive. That is paid for with room rates. I think it is wrong to say the government does not set rates. Medicare does that, and the Medicare rates affects everything in the hospital, private pay or not. That said, I've said often that we need to treat health care as a regulated monopoly, like the phones used to be. Nobody, including you, agreed with that. Most of the OCED comparisons you make are systems that came from nothing after WWII. We had a system that was never destroyed. We need to understand that we can do a lot to cut and control costs in the system we have. Medicare is now showing us that single payor combined with fee for service is a bad idea. There is much more that can be done.
 
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I think the point some are trying to make is this: if it costs $10K to have a heart attack in France, and $20K to have a heart attack in the US, perhaps focusing on the cause of the heart attack is deflecting from the more serious problem. Keep on mind, this thread didn't start with "How to be healthier..." It started with "How to lower costs..." What you are essentially arguing is that the best way to combat price gouging is to do whatever you can to avoid having to purchase the product, and then pray it works.

Why can't we help people learn to be healthier, while at the same time also deal with he price gouging?
This thread started with lowering costs by reducing obesity.
 
I know, and the counter argument is that obesity isn't why we are getting overcharged for everything.

Managing your weight, along with other things, might reduce your individual health care costs, but it won't keep for profit healthcare insurance companies from raping us and it won't keep hospitals from charging ridiculous amounts of money should we need a procedure.

You need a 30 second CT of your abdomen and a radiologist to take 15-20 minutes to read it? That'll be $1,000 thank you for your business!!!

If you ever need to go to an ER for chest pain and you're at home, save yourself a couple hundred dollars on the visit by taking your own aspirin if you have it on hand.
 
This will cover the cost aspect of obesity. Yes, doubtless it raises costs. As does everything. People who play basketball are more likely to need ACL surgery, do we prohibit basketball because it drives up cost? I mention that as I had a buddy in college who refused to play basketball with us, he wasn't on any insurance plan and was scared of an injury like that (I wasn't on a plan at the time either and didn't care).

But I will stipulate, obesity has a cost. Now, here is a chart of obesity by state. Please note that Tennessee is one of the most obese states. Here are the states in the "stroke belt". It is pretty much the confederacy, Kentucky and Indiana. I haven't researched why that is, I would wildly guess it is the southern diet. I was raised believing biscuits and gravy are nature's perfect breakfast and all dinners have a fried meat. Greens were allowed, if you cooked them with fatback and butter. But I digress.

So we can state Tennessee looks like a poster child for high healthcare. So here is a listing of the 10 cheapest healthcare markets. Note that Chattanooga is the cheapest, and Knoxville is the third cheapest. Colorado, the least obese state, has no cities in the cheapest health care. In fact, Denver is the 7th MOST expensive for health care.

Doubtless our lifestyle choices make a difference. But as Rock keeps pointing out, some of these countries have far more smokers than the US which should cause their health care costs to be more. Some of that smoking should offset some of our weight. But even inside our own country, if obesity were even the most important single factor, why are Chattanooga and Knoxville cheaper than Denver? Clearly obesity's impact is far less than you make it out to be.
 
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I completely understand your frustration with hospitals, doctors, insurance companies, and big pharma, but why shouldn't we "shame" those that are obese, or in many instances, morbidly obese. I read an article yesterday, I think from one of the Philly papers, that said just that. That doesn't mean to go around shouting at someone that they are fat, but start charging the obese when they need 2 seats on a plane, increase health premiums for those that don't take care of themselves. We do that for life insurance, why not health insurance?

My anecdote: I just finished up a 1 pm meeting. On the way to that meeting, I passed by one of our sales assistants, who, I am assuming, would be classified as morbidly obese. In her hand were 4 pieces of deep dish pizza she was walking out from out office kitchen. The timing was rather ironic.

Because you're focusing on what's already been demonstrated to be a fairly small part of a huge problem, I. If the problem with American health care was that Americans were too fat and not in good enough shape it wouldn't be a tough fix, but that's obviously not the case, as has been pointed out to you. Stop running the play on the next page of the GOP/free market playbook and look at the problem.
 
The snide remarks included below reference posters who generally feel a need to lord their superiority over those of us who are fatter. Others of you may disregard.

After taking on the idea that obesity is the primary driver of cost, let me speak to the issue itself. I know some of you are vastly superior humans who never overeat, I get that from the way you lord your superiority over us. But while America may lead the way, obesity is a world problem. Google obesity and Africa, or obesity and China, or obesity and India and you will note it is a growing problem in almost the entire world. Yes, America may have the problem more, but the others are gaining. Obesity in China is 5%, in many major cities it is 20%. Cities in China are where the wealth lay. Simply put there seems some evidence that modern lifestyle and modern wealth lead to obesity. Lifestyle is huge, we no longer are foraging for food 12 hours a day. Food is more plentiful than ever, which leads to the ability to overeat.

So while America may lead the way, we are not totally unique. Now, some of it is unique to us. You can look at the website http://mindlesseating.org/ and in one of the videos he has an interesting observation. When asked how they know they are done eating, French answer "when I feel full". Americans answer "when my plate is empty". Now that makes sense, the words "clean your plate" are as American as "batter up". So we have some cultural items that push us (those of us not of superior stock anyway) to overeating as a norm.

That same author wrote a book on mindless eating that I read years ago. His experiments are interesting. They used a theater to conduct an experiment. Movie goers were told that they were being given a free sample of a new style of popcorn. All they had to do was return the large container with any popcorn leftover in it, and answer some questions. The author pointed out the popcorn was made to be terrible, it was squeaky stale. At the end of the movie, people returned their containers. The people receiving them would note, as the subject answered a form on what they thought of the new popcorn, if the person was generally at weight, overweight, or obese. They also measured the amount of popcorn left. What they discovered is that everyone pretty much ate all the popcorn. Even the genetically superior thin people at all the popcorn. If it was in front of them, they ate it.

Which goes to the idea of the book, people generally do not think about eating. It isn't a conscious decision to eat too much, it is somewhere in the subconscious (probably relating to a thread I started a few weeks ago that we may make many fewer conscious decisions than we think we do, but I didn't think of this example then). I would theorize there is some evolutionary trait. Think about it, human tribes of long ago would need thin, fast people to hunt prey. But they would need larger, slower muscled people to survive famines.

Now, to get to the personal level, sure, I am one of the obese (maybe I should put a yellow O on my arm, that shaming may help me straighten up). Up until about 2005, I was overweight but very active. I ran 5Ks, 10Ks, half-marathons, and trained at marathon distance but never ran one. I would run at HPER at 6AM, be back from noon to 1:30 to play full court basketball, and run around the neighborhood at night or I'd play basketball, throw football, or go to a park and hit flies and grounders with neighbors.

Then I tore my miniscus. The specialist told me I had about the worst arthritis showing in that knee he had ever seen. It wasn't bothering me much, so once the miniscus healed, I went back to the routine and broke my kneecap. Once that healed, I tore my miniscus again (I didn't mention it above, but this also goes to my belief we need to ban basketball to save healthcare costs as I know 3 people from my group who tore ACLS in addition to my injuries). By the time all that was done, I had pretty much been inactive for 9 months and was now deep into obese range. Suddenly doing all the exercise wasn't close to possible. And the reality that I needed to quit basketball was painful, why the hell would anyone run if the point wasn't to make one better at basketball? And of course the arthritis became more real.

As to food, sure, I do eat too much. It is mindless, I'll find myself snacking and not even know why. And I like bad foods (I mention my southern upbringing above, God are biscuits and gravy good). I do believe what we like and are exposed to as children becomes a norm for us. But not just as children, but as infants. I was a premie (2 pounds at birth and was not expected to live). The solution back then was an exceedingly high fat diet to put weight on as fast as possible. Guess what they have found? Premies put on high fat diets are more likely to be obese, by a fair amount, than the public at large. See one report, Google for others. So what we are fed as infants seems to play a role in what we eat as adults (well, those of us who are inferior).

Now, I am great at losing weight. I can lose 75 pounds between now and Thanksgiving, and put 85 back on between Thanksgiving and next 4th. The way that works best to lose weight is to make weight loss my sole focus. I think of nothing else, I do nothing else. I plan every meal, every calorie. I calculate every movement. The moment I stop doing that, it all goes away. Because, once again, mindless eating returns. Food has to always be my thought, or the subconscious sneaks in and wants something. Eventually I stop obsessing over whether my broccoli in garlic sauce (no rice) had 13 or 14 pieces of broccoli. I guess it is either because of boredom (I can show you some amazing spreadsheets on food intake, but eventually playing with them stops being exciting) or because of extinction burst. Or probably both. But once I am not spending every waking moment thinking about dieting, the mindless eating habit appears.

So there it is. I am sure admitting to being obese invalidates anything I've ever posted here since we are clearly not worthy. It clearly is a character defect, it can be nothing else. Or at least that seems to be what a lot of people think. But if it is, it is a defect spreading even into countries with severe starvation.

And to repeat the idea of a couple posts above, obesity clearly has an impact on cost. But if it is the driving force, why is Chattanooga so cheap?
 
The snide remarks included below reference posters who generally feel a need to lord their superiority over those of us who are fatter. Others of you may disregard.

After taking on the idea that obesity is the primary driver of cost, let me speak to the issue itself. I know some of you are vastly superior humans who never overeat, I get that from the way you lord your superiority over us. But while America may lead the way, obesity is a world problem. Google obesity and Africa, or obesity and China, or obesity and India and you will note it is a growing problem in almost the entire world. Yes, America may have the problem more, but the others are gaining. Obesity in China is 5%, in many major cities it is 20%. Cities in China are where the wealth lay. Simply put there seems some evidence that modern lifestyle and modern wealth lead to obesity. Lifestyle is huge, we no longer are foraging for food 12 hours a day. Food is more plentiful than ever, which leads to the ability to overeat.

So while America may lead the way, we are not totally unique. Now, some of it is unique to us. You can look at the website http://mindlesseating.org/ and in one of the videos he has an interesting observation. When asked how they know they are done eating, French answer "when I feel full". Americans answer "when my plate is empty". Now that makes sense, the words "clean your plate" are as American as "batter up". So we have some cultural items that push us (those of us not of superior stock anyway) to overeating as a norm.

That same author wrote a book on mindless eating that I read years ago. His experiments are interesting. They used a theater to conduct an experiment. Movie goers were told that they were being given a free sample of a new style of popcorn. All they had to do was return the large container with any popcorn leftover in it, and answer some questions. The author pointed out the popcorn was made to be terrible, it was squeaky stale. At the end of the movie, people returned their containers. The people receiving them would note, as the subject answered a form on what they thought of the new popcorn, if the person was generally at weight, overweight, or obese. They also measured the amount of popcorn left. What they discovered is that everyone pretty much ate all the popcorn. Even the genetically superior thin people at all the popcorn. If it was in front of them, they ate it.

Which goes to the idea of the book, people generally do not think about eating. It isn't a conscious decision to eat too much, it is somewhere in the subconscious (probably relating to a thread I started a few weeks ago that we may make many fewer conscious decisions than we think we do, but I didn't think of this example then). I would theorize there is some evolutionary trait. Think about it, human tribes of long ago would need thin, fast people to hunt prey. But they would need larger, slower muscled people to survive famines.

Now, to get to the personal level, sure, I am one of the obese (maybe I should put a yellow O on my arm, that shaming may help me straighten up). Up until about 2005, I was overweight but very active. I ran 5Ks, 10Ks, half-marathons, and trained at marathon distance but never ran one. I would run at HPER at 6AM, be back from noon to 1:30 to play full court basketball, and run around the neighborhood at night or I'd play basketball, throw football, or go to a park and hit flies and grounders with neighbors.

Then I tore my miniscus. The specialist told me I had about the worst arthritis showing in that knee he had ever seen. It wasn't bothering me much, so once the miniscus healed, I went back to the routine and broke my kneecap. Once that healed, I tore my miniscus again (I didn't mention it above, but this also goes to my belief we need to ban basketball to save healthcare costs as I know 3 people from my group who tore ACLS in addition to my injuries). By the time all that was done, I had pretty much been inactive for 9 months and was now deep into obese range. Suddenly doing all the exercise wasn't close to possible. And the reality that I needed to quit basketball was painful, why the hell would anyone run if the point wasn't to make one better at basketball? And of course the arthritis became more real.

As to food, sure, I do eat too much. It is mindless, I'll find myself snacking and not even know why. And I like bad foods (I mention my southern upbringing above, God are biscuits and gravy good). I do believe what we like and are exposed to as children becomes a norm for us. But not just as children, but as infants. I was a premie (2 pounds at birth and was not expected to live). The solution back then was an exceedingly high fat diet to put weight on as fast as possible. Guess what they have found? Premies put on high fat diets are more likely to be obese, by a fair amount, than the public at large. See one report, Google for others. So what we are fed as infants seems to play a role in what we eat as adults (well, those of us who are inferior).

Now, I am great at losing weight. I can lose 75 pounds between now and Thanksgiving, and put 85 back on between Thanksgiving and next 4th. The way that works best to lose weight is to make weight loss my sole focus. I think of nothing else, I do nothing else. I plan every meal, every calorie. I calculate every movement. The moment I stop doing that, it all goes away. Because, once again, mindless eating returns. Food has to always be my thought, or the subconscious sneaks in and wants something. Eventually I stop obsessing over whether my broccoli in garlic sauce (no rice) had 13 or 14 pieces of broccoli. I guess it is either because of boredom (I can show you some amazing spreadsheets on food intake, but eventually playing with them stops being exciting) or because of extinction burst. Or probably both. But once I am not spending every waking moment thinking about dieting, the mindless eating habit appears.

So there it is. I am sure admitting to being obese invalidates anything I've ever posted here since we are clearly not worthy. It clearly is a character defect, it can be nothing else. Or at least that seems to be what a lot of people think. But if it is, it is a defect spreading even into countries with severe starvation.

And to repeat the idea of a couple posts above, obesity clearly has an impact on cost. But if it is the driving force, why is Chattanooga so cheap?
Marv, I respect your post, sincerely.

What started this thread was an article from an Atlanta newspaper that stated in just one generation, the average weight has increased by 30 lbs. Not over multiple generations. One!!

And the problem is getting worse....and worse

Our children are being allowed to sit in front of a tv for hours at a time, and play video games. Why? Why do the parents allow it? I don't, because if I did, my children would do it. Don't think I am a meanie or anything, they do play some.

As for smoking, fortunately the numbers are going down. Teen smoking has certainly decreased. Why and how did this happen? Well, smoking was attacked from several directions. Some of the smoking commercials that I see on tv today make you cringe. When my kids see those, I hope it affects them the same way. Are we allowed to do that with obesity? We can no longer smoke in restaurants, on planes, and in some areas, even in bars. Smoking has become almost taboo.

Back to eating....I love to eat. I love pizza, pasta, Mac and cheese, beer, etc. But I try, and sometimes, fail, to limit a lot of those foods. I emphasize to my kids the importance of fruits and vegetables. And you know what, they love them. My son, who is 12, will absolutely eat anything. He loves asparagus, broccoli, Brussels sprouts, and every fruit imaginable. When his friends come over, I have to make sure that I have plenty of chicken fingers and pop tarts, because that is virtually all they will eat.

I am not trying to be "Lord" here. But the fact the the U.S. has gained an avg of 30 lbs in a generation is freighting, and something needs to be done about it.
 
Marv, I respect your post, sincerely.

What started this thread was an article from an Atlanta newspaper that stated in just one generation, the average weight has increased by 30 lbs. Not over multiple generations. One!!

And the problem is getting worse....and worse

Our children are being allowed to sit in front of a tv for hours at a time, and play video games. Why? Why do the parents allow it? I don't, because if I did, my children would do it. Don't think I am a meanie or anything, they do play some.

As for smoking, fortunately the numbers are going down. Teen smoking has certainly decreased. Why and how did this happen? Well, smoking was attacked from several directions. Some of the smoking commercials that I see on tv today make you cringe. When my kids see those, I hope it affects them the same way. Are we allowed to do that with obesity? We can no longer smoke in restaurants, on planes, and in some areas, even in bars. Smoking has become almost taboo.

Back to eating....I love to eat. I love pizza, pasta, Mac and cheese, beer, etc. But I try, and sometimes, fail, to limit a lot of those foods. I emphasize to my kids the importance of fruits and vegetables. And you know what, they love them. My son, who is 12, will absolutely eat anything. He loves asparagus, broccoli, Brussels sprouts, and every fruit imaginable. When his friends come over, I have to make sure that I have plenty of chicken fingers and pop tarts, because that is virtually all they will eat.

I am not trying to be "Lord" here. But the fact the the U.S. has gained an avg of 30 lbs in a generation is freighting, and something needs to be done about it.

I agree completely with all of this, IUJ: its a public health/public education problem, and a serious one. Your mistake, IMO, was overreaching w/r/t its implications.
 
Jim, it is a problem we need to deal with. And frankly, I don't know how. My frustration is the idea that some sort of shaming will work. Now, to be fair, that may with some people. But not all of us are wired the same and I doubt seriously it works for a majority. In fact, it may drive some people more into food. So we need a solution, and it's going to take a much better mind than mine to come up with it.

Now part of the solution may be happening. Kids today seem much more in tune with what they are eating. My generation, fast was best. So a box of mac and cheese, perfect. Anyone can make it in 10 minutes. Today that isn't a big hit. So I think we are seeing a cultural shift the right way. Processed foods are losing popularity and I do believe processed foods are a significant part of the problem.
 
Don't bother, Marv. Rock laid it all out above

And for the record, I have said all through this thread that I agree about the poor and impoverished.

What about the piece I linked above that speaks about the higher income folks becoming obese at 2X the rate as the poor. These people have the means for fitness, but in MOST cases, choose not to.

I grilled out last night. Grilled fish and fresh veggies. We did have potatoes as well, and I had ice water to drink. After, my wife and I walked our 3.1 mile route. Now, if my doctor told me I had told me I had 6 mos to live, I probably would have had a greasy double cheeseburger, or 5 pieces of pizza, and beer. And would have enjoyed that a heck of a lot more than more than fish and veggies. But I didn't.

I am not speaking of the urban core and its issues with obesity. I am talking about Carmel, and Avon, and Center Grove (where I live), and its issues with sedentary lifestyles (see, I didn't use lazy. I am learning). Kids that come home from school and sit in front of their $400 Xbox and eat Cheetos for hours. And don't tell me they don't. I see it first hand from my kids friends, and hear it from their parents. My wife works at the middle school, and obesity is every bit the problem in Center Grove Middle as it is Shortridge Middle.

Until somebody figures out how to fix this epidemic, (and yes, that is what it is), and not just tell me the 15 excuses for it, we are going to continue down this road.

You and Rock like charts, so here are a couple.




But, by all means, let's continue to stick our heads in the sand.

And no, it is 9:50am Friday morning, and I am not drunk.
Your post just reminded me we had some cheetos in the cabinet. Thx a lot.
 
The snide remarks included below reference posters who generally feel a need to lord their superiority over those of us who are fatter. Others of you may disregard.

After taking on the idea that obesity is the primary driver of cost, let me speak to the issue itself. I know some of you are vastly superior humans who never overeat, I get that from the way you lord your superiority over us. But while America may lead the way, obesity is a world problem. Google obesity and Africa, or obesity and China, or obesity and India and you will note it is a growing problem in almost the entire world. Yes, America may have the problem more, but the others are gaining. Obesity in China is 5%, in many major cities it is 20%. Cities in China are where the wealth lay. Simply put there seems some evidence that modern lifestyle and modern wealth lead to obesity. Lifestyle is huge, we no longer are foraging for food 12 hours a day. Food is more plentiful than ever, which leads to the ability to overeat.

So while America may lead the way, we are not totally unique. Now, some of it is unique to us. You can look at the website http://mindlesseating.org/ and in one of the videos he has an interesting observation. When asked how they know they are done eating, French answer "when I feel full". Americans answer "when my plate is empty". Now that makes sense, the words "clean your plate" are as American as "batter up". So we have some cultural items that push us (those of us not of superior stock anyway) to overeating as a norm.

That same author wrote a book on mindless eating that I read years ago. His experiments are interesting. They used a theater to conduct an experiment. Movie goers were told that they were being given a free sample of a new style of popcorn. All they had to do was return the large container with any popcorn leftover in it, and answer some questions. The author pointed out the popcorn was made to be terrible, it was squeaky stale. At the end of the movie, people returned their containers. The people receiving them would note, as the subject answered a form on what they thought of the new popcorn, if the person was generally at weight, overweight, or obese. They also measured the amount of popcorn left. What they discovered is that everyone pretty much ate all the popcorn. Even the genetically superior thin people at all the popcorn. If it was in front of them, they ate it.

Which goes to the idea of the book, people generally do not think about eating. It isn't a conscious decision to eat too much, it is somewhere in the subconscious (probably relating to a thread I started a few weeks ago that we may make many fewer conscious decisions than we think we do, but I didn't think of this example then). I would theorize there is some evolutionary trait. Think about it, human tribes of long ago would need thin, fast people to hunt prey. But they would need larger, slower muscled people to survive famines.

Now, to get to the personal level, sure, I am one of the obese (maybe I should put a yellow O on my arm, that shaming may help me straighten up). Up until about 2005, I was overweight but very active. I ran 5Ks, 10Ks, half-marathons, and trained at marathon distance but never ran one. I would run at HPER at 6AM, be back from noon to 1:30 to play full court basketball, and run around the neighborhood at night or I'd play basketball, throw football, or go to a park and hit flies and grounders with neighbors.

Then I tore my miniscus. The specialist told me I had about the worst arthritis showing in that knee he had ever seen. It wasn't bothering me much, so once the miniscus healed, I went back to the routine and broke my kneecap. Once that healed, I tore my miniscus again (I didn't mention it above, but this also goes to my belief we need to ban basketball to save healthcare costs as I know 3 people from my group who tore ACLS in addition to my injuries). By the time all that was done, I had pretty much been inactive for 9 months and was now deep into obese range. Suddenly doing all the exercise wasn't close to possible. And the reality that I needed to quit basketball was painful, why the hell would anyone run if the point wasn't to make one better at basketball? And of course the arthritis became more real.

As to food, sure, I do eat too much. It is mindless, I'll find myself snacking and not even know why. And I like bad foods (I mention my southern upbringing above, God are biscuits and gravy good). I do believe what we like and are exposed to as children becomes a norm for us. But not just as children, but as infants. I was a premie (2 pounds at birth and was not expected to live). The solution back then was an exceedingly high fat diet to put weight on as fast as possible. Guess what they have found? Premies put on high fat diets are more likely to be obese, by a fair amount, than the public at large. See one report, Google for others. So what we are fed as infants seems to play a role in what we eat as adults (well, those of us who are inferior).

Now, I am great at losing weight. I can lose 75 pounds between now and Thanksgiving, and put 85 back on between Thanksgiving and next 4th. The way that works best to lose weight is to make weight loss my sole focus. I think of nothing else, I do nothing else. I plan every meal, every calorie. I calculate every movement. The moment I stop doing that, it all goes away. Because, once again, mindless eating returns. Food has to always be my thought, or the subconscious sneaks in and wants something. Eventually I stop obsessing over whether my broccoli in garlic sauce (no rice) had 13 or 14 pieces of broccoli. I guess it is either because of boredom (I can show you some amazing spreadsheets on food intake, but eventually playing with them stops being exciting) or because of extinction burst. Or probably both. But once I am not spending every waking moment thinking about dieting, the mindless eating habit appears.

So there it is. I am sure admitting to being obese invalidates anything I've ever posted here since we are clearly not worthy. It clearly is a character defect, it can be nothing else. Or at least that seems to be what a lot of people think. But if it is, it is a defect spreading even into countries with severe starvation.

And to repeat the idea of a couple posts above, obesity clearly has an impact on cost. But if it is the driving force, why is Chattanooga so cheap?

Good lord . . . I wonder if we ever were on the court together, either at Lincoln, Donner, the HPER building or maybe just in a driveway someplace.

My experience mirrors yours to some degree - must be a C-bus thing - I've had two meniscus tears, plus like MTIOTF I have flat feet . . . my shoe size has gone from 10 1/2 D to 12 EEEE in about 12 years . . .

. . . but I have not had the obesity issue you've had, at least in degree. I'm consistently at a 28 BMI, and have been able to stay at about 205 or under, simply because if I eat too much I feel horrible - as in please let me die acid indigestion - and can't sleep worth a damn, so there comes a point where I can't stand eating or drinking anything . . .

. . . I will say this, too, that the Indiana climate, what with its incessant cloudy days, interminable late winter and constant high humidity made getting active outdoors much more difficult for me when we lived there. In some ways Georgia has been kind to me . . . and 5 am walks in the national park nearby is one way that it has been.
 
The snide remarks included below reference posters who generally feel a need to lord their superiority over those of us who are fatter. Others of you may disregard.

After taking on the idea that obesity is the primary driver of cost, let me speak to the issue itself. I know some of you are vastly superior humans who never overeat, I get that from the way you lord your superiority over us. But while America may lead the way, obesity is a world problem. Google obesity and Africa, or obesity and China, or obesity and India and you will note it is a growing problem in almost the entire world. Yes, America may have the problem more, but the others are gaining. Obesity in China is 5%, in many major cities it is 20%. Cities in China are where the wealth lay. Simply put there seems some evidence that modern lifestyle and modern wealth lead to obesity. Lifestyle is huge, we no longer are foraging for food 12 hours a day. Food is more plentiful than ever, which leads to the ability to overeat.

So while America may lead the way, we are not totally unique. Now, some of it is unique to us. You can look at the website http://mindlesseating.org/ and in one of the videos he has an interesting observation. When asked how they know they are done eating, French answer "when I feel full". Americans answer "when my plate is empty". Now that makes sense, the words "clean your plate" are as American as "batter up". So we have some cultural items that push us (those of us not of superior stock anyway) to overeating as a norm.

That same author wrote a book on mindless eating that I read years ago. His experiments are interesting. They used a theater to conduct an experiment. Movie goers were told that they were being given a free sample of a new style of popcorn. All they had to do was return the large container with any popcorn leftover in it, and answer some questions. The author pointed out the popcorn was made to be terrible, it was squeaky stale. At the end of the movie, people returned their containers. The people receiving them would note, as the subject answered a form on what they thought of the new popcorn, if the person was generally at weight, overweight, or obese. They also measured the amount of popcorn left. What they discovered is that everyone pretty much ate all the popcorn. Even the genetically superior thin people at all the popcorn. If it was in front of them, they ate it.

Which goes to the idea of the book, people generally do not think about eating. It isn't a conscious decision to eat too much, it is somewhere in the subconscious (probably relating to a thread I started a few weeks ago that we may make many fewer conscious decisions than we think we do, but I didn't think of this example then). I would theorize there is some evolutionary trait. Think about it, human tribes of long ago would need thin, fast people to hunt prey. But they would need larger, slower muscled people to survive famines.

Now, to get to the personal level, sure, I am one of the obese (maybe I should put a yellow O on my arm, that shaming may help me straighten up). Up until about 2005, I was overweight but very active. I ran 5Ks, 10Ks, half-marathons, and trained at marathon distance but never ran one. I would run at HPER at 6AM, be back from noon to 1:30 to play full court basketball, and run around the neighborhood at night or I'd play basketball, throw football, or go to a park and hit flies and grounders with neighbors.

Then I tore my miniscus. The specialist told me I had about the worst arthritis showing in that knee he had ever seen. It wasn't bothering me much, so once the miniscus healed, I went back to the routine and broke my kneecap. Once that healed, I tore my miniscus again (I didn't mention it above, but this also goes to my belief we need to ban basketball to save healthcare costs as I know 3 people from my group who tore ACLS in addition to my injuries). By the time all that was done, I had pretty much been inactive for 9 months and was now deep into obese range. Suddenly doing all the exercise wasn't close to possible. And the reality that I needed to quit basketball was painful, why the hell would anyone run if the point wasn't to make one better at basketball? And of course the arthritis became more real.

As to food, sure, I do eat too much. It is mindless, I'll find myself snacking and not even know why. And I like bad foods (I mention my southern upbringing above, God are biscuits and gravy good). I do believe what we like and are exposed to as children becomes a norm for us. But not just as children, but as infants. I was a premie (2 pounds at birth and was not expected to live). The solution back then was an exceedingly high fat diet to put weight on as fast as possible. Guess what they have found? Premies put on high fat diets are more likely to be obese, by a fair amount, than the public at large. See one report, Google for others. So what we are fed as infants seems to play a role in what we eat as adults (well, those of us who are inferior).

Now, I am great at losing weight. I can lose 75 pounds between now and Thanksgiving, and put 85 back on between Thanksgiving and next 4th. The way that works best to lose weight is to make weight loss my sole focus. I think of nothing else, I do nothing else. I plan every meal, every calorie. I calculate every movement. The moment I stop doing that, it all goes away. Because, once again, mindless eating returns. Food has to always be my thought, or the subconscious sneaks in and wants something. Eventually I stop obsessing over whether my broccoli in garlic sauce (no rice) had 13 or 14 pieces of broccoli. I guess it is either because of boredom (I can show you some amazing spreadsheets on food intake, but eventually playing with them stops being exciting) or because of extinction burst. Or probably both. But once I am not spending every waking moment thinking about dieting, the mindless eating habit appears.

So there it is. I am sure admitting to being obese invalidates anything I've ever posted here since we are clearly not worthy. It clearly is a character defect, it can be nothing else. Or at least that seems to be what a lot of people think. But if it is, it is a defect spreading even into countries with severe starvation.

And to repeat the idea of a couple posts above, obesity clearly has an impact on cost. But if it is the driving force, why is Chattanooga so cheap?

Perhaps obesity costs are measured differently by various testers? Harvard is attempting to determine the impact and ways to prevent or reverse the trend.

"Excess weight harms health in many ways. It increases the risk of developing conditions such as diabetes, heart disease, osteoarthritis, and some cancers, to name just a few, and reduces the life span. Treating obesity and obesity-related conditions costs billions of dollars a year. By one estimate, the U.S. spent $190 billion on obesity-related health care expenses in 2005—double previous estimates. (1) The enormity of this economic burden and the huge toll that excess weight takes on health and well-being are beginning to raise global political awareness that individuals, communities, states, nations, and international organizations must do more to stem the rising tide of obesity."

As for your post, I feel you, to an extent. I am struggling with my weight myself and have been for a few years now. What I learned though everything is that diet is unequivocally the most important factor. Exercise obviously helps tremendously, particularly a balanced regimen of weight lifting / muscle strengthening and cardio. However, simply changing my diet was the result of 20 lbs of weight loss within a month's time.

The biggest culprit for U.S. obesity is sugar, because of its effect on our metabolism. I'm a sucker for candy, ice cream and other sugary snacks. Luckily, my sister-in-law is a registered dietician and turned me on to a program that truly made me feel better. Of course, this was before my wedding and since then, I battled some brutal stretches with work demands and lost my way. I dropped from 230 lbs to 210 lbs before the wedding, and since am back to 230 lbs. I plan on re-engaging myself and starting back on this diet beginning tomorrow. I have already stocked up with the necessary items to get back on it.

The plan is similar to the Atkins Diet and the Paleo diet because it significantly reduces the amount of carbs you take in. However, there are good carbs (sweet potatoes, vegetables, etc.) that are healthy in moderation and actually contribute towards rebuilding your metabolism, the theme of this diet/program. I obviously cannot guarantee it will work for you, but I assure you if you follow the Phase 1 and Phase 2 plans, you will lose a significant amount of weight.

Rebuilding your metabolism and reducing the volume of food you intake per meal, while increasing the overall volume of food you get to eat throughout the day, is what this program is about. For someone, like myself, that struggled with overeating at meals, this should help you control your portions and get full quicker.

http://www.amazon.com/State-Slim-Metabolism-Pounds-Colorado/dp/1609614917

I
f you want to jump in with me, I can post my daily diet and you can try to challenge yourself and me. I'm always looking for motivation as well and unfortunately my wife is unable to participate at this time.
 
Good lord . . . I wonder if we ever were on the court together, either at Lincoln, Donner, the HPER building or maybe just in a driveway someplace.

My experience mirrors yours to some degree - must be a C-bus thing - I've had two meniscus tears, plus like MTIOTF I have flat feet . . . my shoe size has gone from 10 1/2 D to 12 EEEE in about 12 years . . .

. . . but I have not had the obesity issue you've had, at least in degree. I'm consistently at a 28 BMI, and have been able to stay at about 205 or under, simply because if I eat too much I feel horrible - as in please let me die acid indigestion - and can't sleep worth a damn, so there comes a point where I can't stand eating or drinking anything . . .

. . . I will say this, too, that the Indiana climate, what with its incessant cloudy days, interminable late winter and constant high humidity made getting active outdoors much more difficult for me when we lived there. In some ways Georgia has been kind to me . . . and 5 am walks in the national park nearby is one way that it has been.

Sope, in Columbus I mostly played at Lincoln elementary and St Peters. Donner on a rare occasion. At Bloomington, HPER and the Y. I came here in 79, so if your old geezer self was still here then, we may well have.

I have a strange reaction to food. I never get hungry. I go to a gaming con, run late and done grab breakfast and the next thing I know it is midnight and I haven't eaten (also haven't drank but since I discovered that causes me to have migraines I force myself to drink). The tradeoff, I really never feel full. If there is food near me, I eat. If not, I don't.
 
Sope, in Columbus I mostly played at Lincoln elementary and St Peters. Donner on a rare occasion. At Bloomington, HPER and the Y. I came here in 79, so if your old geezer self was still here then, we may well have.

I have a strange reaction to food. I never get hungry. I go to a gaming con, run late and done grab breakfast and the next thing I know it is midnight and I haven't eaten (also haven't drank but since I discovered that causes me to have migraines I force myself to drink). The tradeoff, I really never feel full. If there is food near me, I eat. If not, I don't.

Marv, I played at Lincoln a bit, but was mostly at Donner and McKinley. I was 6 years ahead of you, so unlikely we were on the court in C-bus at the same time.

Say, let's take this off line . . . please email at sitzeslaw@mindspring.com.
 
It's clear that obesity is rising and that rising obesity contributes to rising health care costs. But shaming supposed lazy fat asses -- particularly poor "lazy fat asses" -- is cruel, unproductive, and mostly beside the point.

As to obesity, where are the policy proposals? When New York Mayor Bloomberg tried to ban Big Gulps conservatives ridiculed him, but at least he was trying to address the problem. How about banning trans fats? Ending subsidies that make high fructose corn syrup such a ubiquitous additive? Requiring producers of unhealthy foods to place a conspicuous warning label on them? How about making health a priority in childhood education? Instead of shaming "lazy fat asses" it would make much more sense to actually think about the problem.

Having said so, it just isn't true (as the OP claims) that we can solve our problems by shaming people who are overweight. It's impossible to assess the costs of our own system without comparing our system to those that exist in other countries. As I've pointed out countless times, the other developed countries spend about half of what we pay per capita for outcomes that are at least as good as ours -- and they cover everyone. Americans are more likely to be obese than those in other developed countries, but people elsewhere drink and smoke a lot more than we do. I'm unaware of any study that has established that our much higher costs are due to an unhealthier American population.

It is beyond doubt, however, that our unit prices -- for everything from ambulance rides to prescription drugs to medical devices to (especially) hospital stays -- are much higher. That's because, unlike every other developed country, our government doesn't involve itself in rate-setting:

Steven Brill started his cover story in this week's Time magazine with a simple health-policy question: "Why exactly are the bills so high?"

His article is essentially a 26,000-word answer, the longest story that the magazine has ever run by a single author. It's worth reading in full, but if you're looking for a quick summary, the article seemed to me to boil down to one sentence: The American health-care system does not use rate-setting.

Much of Brill's piece focuses on the absurdly high prices that hospitals and doctors charge for the most mundane items. A single Tylenol tablet can cost $1.50 when "you can buy 100 of them on Amazon for $1.49 even without a hospital’s purchasing power." One patient gets charged $6 for a marker used to mark his body before surgery. Another is billed $77 for each of four boxes of gauze used.

One hospital, according to Brill's math, bills $1,200 per hour for one nurse's services.

"Over the past few decades, we’ve enriched the labs, drug companies, medical device makers, hospital administrators and purveyors of CT scans, MRIs, canes and wheelchairs," Brill concludes. "Meanwhile ... we’ve squeezed everyone outside the system who gets stuck with the bills."

In other countries, that cannot happen: Their federal governments set rates for what both private and public plans can charge for various procedures. Those countries have tended to see much lower growth in health-care costs.

What sets our really expensive health-care system apart from most others isn't necessarily the fact it's not single-payer or universal. It's that the federal government does not regulate the prices that health-care providers can charge.
This is in effect a massive ongoing redistribution of income to health carer providers from everyone else -- for which we get nothing but what residents of other countries get at half the price. It's in this context that I reject suggestions that we seek to cut our health care costs by shaming "lazy fat asses".

Amen, Rock. The real-world examples are just too numerous to recite, but here's one, which I may have mentioned before: when my M-in-L had knee replacement a year or so ago her hospital bill, for a 38-hour stay and the surgical procedure, was $46,000. I checked, and in Canada the total cost of the same procedure, using the same state-of-the-art implant, averages about $17,000. Note that the $46K wasn't the hospital's opening bid, but the amount Medicare (!) actually paid.
 
I know this was a discussion about obesity but the dysfunction of our health care system in so many areas and the money spent by each group to try and keep their piece of the pie. Those include insurance companies, pharma, medical device builders, hospitals, doctors, lobbyists and politicians.

I only saw this from managing large company health plans for many years and interacting with many of these groups. Now I am an owner of a company providing medical care to private/public employers their covered employees and dependents.

One easy example is blood work with associated lab results. A doctor's office or hospital might charge $85 for the test insurance will pay $45 for that test and we pass through the actual cost that the lab company charges us like $4. I knew just from seeing bills and negotiated charges over the years how big the margins were but it is even worse.

As was pointed out Hospitals are building bigger and grander hospitals all the time and much has nothing to do with better health care. One local hospital continues to cut staff and overwork what they have left because of being in so much debt.

The incentive programs for providers is so jaded and not built on results or when it is it causes them to be more about managing who and how they care for to meet those objectives that it is not really patient centered.

Obesity is a big issue and will continue based on the way we choose to provide and process food or add things for taste that do not add health value.

This discussion could go on and on but we do not seem to want to solve our dysfunctional system or even really address pieces of it because everyone is in protection mode.
 
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