Why don’t teachers trust the experts?

[Bulk VanderHuge]

Textbooks are tools used to deliver the curriculum, which is specified in the district's standards, indicators, pacing guides, and vertical alignment along grade grade levels. Textbooks are not the curriculum. Any teacher who does not supplement the material in the textbook, often produced in Texas, with other materials based on student needs, interests, and level of understanding should be replaced with a TV screen or a parrot, and that teacher should then go work in a parochial school.

 

[BradStevens]

This was a comment at the bottom of that story:

I totally disagree with this article. It states that math teachers are not using the curriculum that they should be using. It also says that teacher made materials may sacrifice the thoughtful sequencing of topics planned by curriculum designers. For the last 15 years, I have been using my own written curriculum, with great success. 15 years ago my district was looking at buying new textbooks. I looked at textbook after textbook. The one thing they all had in common was a totally bizarre sequencing of chapters. They all followed a progression, for a couple of chapters, and then bizarrely skipped to something completely unrelated. After that chapter, they skipped to something else, not related to either of the first two covered topics. Not one single textbook displayed progression and continuity. For all my classes, my curriculum starts at a certain point and slows progresses logically. Each skill is built on the mastery of the skill learned before. This has resulted in tremendous mastery of the material. If I had used textbooks my students would have ended up with low skills and little understanding.​

​

It seems like you're asking for uniformity when uniformity isn't reasonable given the myriad of types of students, learning styles, etc. Even math, is taught differently to English learners vs those that are English natives.

I already addressed this possibility above (one anecdotal experience or outlier teacher doesn't disprove the benefit of centralized teaching from experts--avg teachers can't figure this stuff out better than the experts, and we have 3 million plus teachers in the US.).

I've done a little research. A lot varies by state. It looks like the Obama admin tried to put in place more teacher evals based on test scores. But that has been rolled back:

9 states no longer require test scores be used to judge teachers

The decline illustrates the continued retreat of an idea that took education policy by storm, but proved divisive and difficult to implement.

www.chalkbeat.org

Houston school district tried implementing firing based on test scores about 15 years ago. Not sure what happened:

Houston Teachers Could Be Fired for Students Failing Standardized Tests

The Houston Independent School District came up with a fix for teachers who don't produce students with high enough test scores: fire them. School board members recently voted to not just reward teachers based on test scores, but beginning next school year, teachers whose students consistently...

abcnews.go.com

Here's one study showing teacher firings aren't for bad teaching, but for being a bad employee (which is consistent with the experiences shared with me):

https://fee.org/articles/why-do-teachers-get-fired-not-for-bad-teaching/

 

[kraft cheese+macaroni]

How does that play out at the end of the road when they all get the same ACT/SAT?

Testing optional.

I don't know how this teacher judges his success...he obviously stated he's been successful for hte past 15 years, but we obviously don't know what success looks like for him. But these students do all have to take their state's standardized tests, so if his curriculum is getting students in to college or whatever, successful with the standardized tests, etc I would think that's the end goal.

There are multiple ways to be successful in almost every way of life. Obviously (ideally) the curriculum and textbooks are created to serve the most number of people the best way, but that's probably like most pipe dreams...not realistic. As the father of a high school student, I'd probably trust my kid's teachers to pivot based on the daily feedback they get vs following a curriculum just because that's what they were given to follow.

 

[BradStevens]

Textbooks are tools used to deliver the curriculum, which is specified in the district's standards, indicators, pacing guides, and vertical alignment along grade grade levels. Textbooks are not the curriculum. Any teacher who does not supplement the material in the textbook, often produced in Texas, with other materials based on student needs, interests, and level of understanding should be replaced with a TV screen or a parrot, and that teacher should then go work in a parochial school.

I actually think the TV screen thing isn't a bad idea. I really think K-12 education needs to lean into tech a hell of a lot more on this score.

I'll take high school as an example: if you find a rock star U.S. History teacher who has amazingly engaging, funny, awesome lectures and lessons, copy it! Video him in his class all year round and offer those videos to schools for kids to watch, either at home or in school.

I get the distinction between the textbook and the curriculum, but I'm sure you understand what I'm driving at here. I'm not knocking individual teachers; I'm talking about designing a system that leads to better educational outcomes for students based on evidence and the best expertise in the country.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Do you not think the experts know about these issues? That they don't design accordingly? Why do you think you or a classroom teacher even can solve these problems better than the experts? Don't you think this discussion tracks others in which you have wondered why we aren't following the experts (e.g. Covid)?

Re the Texas thing, there are more than one textbook in nearly every area. Pick the one that meets your local values in subjects where that is relevant. I have no problem with that.

Maybe what I'm asking for doesn't exist. But it should: we should be centralizing teaching concepts more than we are now, through expert-developed and robustly tested curriculums and teaching materials. The article in the OP shows this is not happening now and worse, what we have now cannot be tested for its efficacy.

I recall a thread I had a couple years ago on experts. You said that you trusted corporations to act based on incentives, and not otherwise. Who publishes the book, an expert or a corporation?

Which experts do we trust

Co thought I should put this in a thread. Using CO, he worries about monied influence by a corp like Pfizer, but wants nuclear power. GE is the major player in nuclear power and has a long, deep history of lobbying and campaign contributions. Why trust them and the nuclear regulatory agency but...

indiana.forums.rivals.com

The data appears hidden to me. Is there a place I can compare textbooks? Is there data that shows the books by publisher A actually follows best practices better than B? Their goal is to sell a book, it may or may not align with learning subject material.

I am all for trusting the experts. What I am not sure of is can I discount the teacher watching the children's reactions to the book. If the kids are noticeably uninterested in the book, should the teacher just plow ahead? The book should be the starting point, I would agree. I am just not sure what happens if it doesn't work. We know from our reading that some people love Moby Dick, others of us wonder why it is considered such a classic.

 

[kraft cheese+macaroni]

I already addressed this possibility above (one anecdotal experience or outlier teacher doesn't disprove the benefit of centralized teaching from experts--avg teachers can't figure this stuff out better than the experts, and we have 3 million plus teachers in the US.).

I've done a little research. A lot varies by state. It looks like the Obama admin tried to put in place more teacher evals based on test scores. But that has been rolled back:

9 states no longer require test scores be used to judge teachers

The decline illustrates the continued retreat of an idea that took education policy by storm, but proved divisive and difficult to implement.

www.chalkbeat.org

Houston school district tried implementing firing based on test scores about 15 years ago. Not sure what happened:

Houston Teachers Could Be Fired for Students Failing Standardized Tests

The Houston Independent School District came up with a fix for teachers who don't produce students with high enough test scores: fire them. School board members recently voted to not just reward teachers based on test scores, but beginning next school year, teachers whose students consistently...

abcnews.go.com

Here's one study showing teacher firings aren't for bad teaching, but for being a bad employee (which is consistent with the experiences shared with me):

https://fee.org/articles/why-do-teachers-get-fired-not-for-bad-teaching/

In most places, I'd say a teacher could take the Trump approach of killing someone in broad daylight and retaining their job. It's easier to keep a meh teacher than it is to replace them because no one wants to teach any longer because of the villainization.

 

[BradStevens]

Testing optional.

I don't know how this teacher judges his success...he obviously stated he's been successful for hte past 15 years, but we obviously don't know what success looks like for him. But these students do all have to take their state's standardized tests, so if his curriculum is getting students in to college or whatever, successful with the standardized tests, etc I would think that's the end goal.

There are multiple ways to be successful in almost every way of life. Obviously (ideally) the curriculum and textbooks are created to serve the most number of people the best way, but that's probably like most pipe dreams...not realistic. As the father of a high school student, I'd probably trust my kid's teachers to pivot based on the daily feedback they get vs following a curriculum just because that's what they were given to follow.

This is part of the problem, as I see it: everyone thinks their teachers are above average for a host of psychological reasons. But why do you think your kid's teachers understand better how to design a curriculum than the experts?

 

[Baller23Boogie]

I actually think the TV screen thing isn't a bad idea. I really think K-12 education needs to lean into tech a hell of a lot more on this score.

I'll take high school as an example: if you find a rock star U.S. History teacher who has amazingly engaging, funny, awesome lectures and lessons, copy it! Video him in his class all year round and offer those videos to schools for kids to watch, either at home or in school.

I get the distinction between the textbook and the curriculum, but I'm sure you understand what I'm driving at here. I'm not knocking individual teachers; I'm talking about designing a system that leads to better educational outcomes for students based on evidence and the best expertise in the country.

The school year following our full shutdown of covid, my middle kid had to miss like 10 days because she was running a fever and they wouldn't let her back before a negative covid test from a doc was provided or the 10 days was up.

My daughter's school set up cameras in the classrooms so they basically Skyped the class day instead of going in.

She was out 10 days but never actually missed anything. It was kind of cool to see.

 

[BradStevens]

I recall a thread I had a couple years ago on experts. You said that you trusted corporations to act based on incentives, and not otherwise. Who publishes the book, an expert or a corporation?

Which experts do we trust

Co thought I should put this in a thread. Using CO, he worries about monied influence by a corp like Pfizer, but wants nuclear power. GE is the major player in nuclear power and has a long, deep history of lobbying and campaign contributions. Why trust them and the nuclear regulatory agency but...

indiana.forums.rivals.com

The data appears hidden to me. Is there a place I can compare textbooks? Is there data that shows the books by publisher A actually follows best practices better than B? Their goal is to sell a book, it may or may not align with learning subject material.

I am all for trusting the experts. What I am not sure of is can I discount the teacher watching the children's reactions to the book. If the kids are noticeably uninterested in the book, should the teacher just plow ahead? The book should be the starting point, I would agree. I am just not sure what happens if it doesn't work. We know from our reading that some people love Moby Dick, others of us wonder why it is considered such a classic.

Great questions.

I would only say, that if our system is working or designed correctly, the sales of textbooks/curriculums should track their efficacy. If they did, I trust the profit motive to churn out the best stuff.

 

[kraft cheese+macaroni]

This is part of the problem, as I see it: everyone thinks their teachers are above average for a host of psychological reasons. But why do you think your kid's teachers understand better how to design a curriculum than the experts?

Partly because I can look at the history of the students from my son's high school and their successes after high school. Were they prepared for college or did they struggle? Did they get into good schools?

 

[BradStevens]

The school year following our full shutdown of covid, my middle kid had to miss like 10 days because she was running a fever and they wouldn't let her back before a negative covid test from a doc was provided or the 10 days was up.

My daughter's school set up cameras in the classrooms so they basically Skyped the class day instead of going in.

She was out 10 days but never actually missed anything. It was kind of cool to see.

Covid experiences are going to set this back quite a bit. Everyone remembers how badly it was implemented and can point to all the learning loss. But that was because the teacher's weren't prepared for it, and again, aren't all rock stars.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Partly because I can look at the history of the students from my son's high school and their successes after high school. Were they prepared for college or did they struggle? Did they get into good schools?

This is literally all I go by. And the fact that Andy cohen is an alum and what he’s brought us through vpr and the rhonj years on and on

 

[Baller23Boogie]

Covid experiences are going to set this back quite a bit. Everyone remembers how badly it was implemented and can point to all the learning loss. But that was because the teacher's weren't prepared for it, and again, aren't all rock stars.

I just thought it was cool that even though she wasn't in class, she still didn't miss anything.

She looked like a news anchor... she would get up, put a nice shirt on and do her hair but would be wearing her PJ bottoms and slippers because nobody saw her from the waist down.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

I actually think the TV screen thing isn't a bad idea. I really think K-12 education needs to lean into tech a hell of a lot more on this score.

I'll take high school as an example: if you find a rock star U.S. History teacher who has amazingly engaging, funny, awesome lectures and lessons, copy it! Video him in his class all year round and offer those videos to schools for kids to watch, either at home or in school.

I get the distinction between the textbook and the curriculum, but I'm sure you understand what I'm driving at here. I'm not knocking individual teachers; I'm talking about designing a system that leads to better educational outcomes for students based on evidence and the best expertise in the country.

I’m sure good teachers use recorded lectures to supplement the textbook, if it fits the curriculum.
But if it’s not in the textbook, you’re against it…right?

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Great questions.

I would only say, that if our system is working or designed correctly, the sales of textbooks/curriculums should track their efficacy. If they did, I trust the profit motive to churn out the best stuff.

There would be a concern that political agendas, on both sides, have created incentives not based on performance.

 

[kraft cheese+macaroni]

Covid experiences are going to set this back quite a bit. Everyone remembers how badly it was implemented and can point to all the learning loss. But that was because the teacher's weren't prepared for it, and again, aren't all rock stars.

I mean, who was prepared for it?

 

[mcmurtry66]

I just thought it was cool that even though she wasn't in class, she still didn't miss anything.

She looked like a news anchor... she would get up, put a nice shirt on and do her hair but would be wearing her PJ bottoms and slippers because nobody saw her from the waist down.

Dirty teacher

 

[kraft cheese+macaroni]

There would be a concern that political agendas, on both sides, have created incentives not based on performance.

Amen. Where there's big bucks involved, there is corruption, so I hardly trust a textbook publisher that makes 25% of the country's textbooks to necessarily have the student's best interests involved vs appeasing the politicians that are signing the textbook contracts.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Great questions.

I would only say, that if our system is working or designed correctly, the sales of textbooks/curriculums should track their efficacy. If they did, I trust the profit motive to churn out the best stuff.

By the way, where did you stand on Common Core when it was released?

I'll pick on my side, the data indicates phonics works, yet it is immensely unpopular on the left.

 

[BradStevens]

By the way, where did you stand on Common Core when it was released?

I'll pick on my side, the data indicates phonics works, yet it is immensely unpopular on the left.

I didn’t have a position. I wasn’t following it. I got into this stuff when my kids started school.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

By the way, where did you stand on Common Core when it was released?

I'll pick on my side, the data indicates phonics works, yet it is immensely unpopular on the left.

And just to mix politics into this topic, I seem to remember that some people considered CC as just another way for the Fed to indoctrinate our youth, and, even though Obama was in favor, State of Indiana State Superintendent Tony Bennett, a conservative buddy of Governor Mitch Daniels, pushed CC as well.
He was voted out in the next election.

 

[zeke4ahs]

When there isn't a template for me to try and follow and then I try and Google and come up with four different ways to do the same problem with explanations that don't make sense, it's damn hard to try and get on board with what's going on.

Yeah I get that. We had to send a weekly newsletter explaining everything going on. Nothing online from the class?

 

[zeke4ahs]

I didn’t have a position. I wasn’t following it. I got into this stuff when my kids started school.

Since when is phonics a political thing? Come on now…

 

[NewGuyToTheBoard]

Public school teachers are unspectacular people. Unspectacular people breed unspectacular students.

If we could configure a government system where the smartest people get paid 300K a year and teach our kids in a public school system, I’d be on board as hell.


As it stands we can’t even manage a deficit.

 

[Baller23Boogie]

Yeah I get that. We had to send a weekly newsletter explaining everything going on. Nothing online from the class?

We have an app that our district uses that he'll post pictures of what they did for the day, if they have a project coming up or their upcoming spelling words for the following week.

That's about it.

 

[Baller23Boogie]

Dirty teacher

Bitch, that's my daughter that would dress like that.

 

[kraft cheese+macaroni]

I already addressed this possibility above (one anecdotal experience or outlier teacher doesn't disprove the benefit of centralized teaching from experts--avg teachers can't figure this stuff out better than the experts, and we have 3 million plus teachers in the US.).

I've done a little research. A lot varies by state. It looks like the Obama admin tried to put in place more teacher evals based on test scores. But that has been rolled back:

9 states no longer require test scores be used to judge teachers

The decline illustrates the continued retreat of an idea that took education policy by storm, but proved divisive and difficult to implement.

www.chalkbeat.org

Houston school district tried implementing firing based on test scores about 15 years ago. Not sure what happened:

Houston Teachers Could Be Fired for Students Failing Standardized Tests

The Houston Independent School District came up with a fix for teachers who don't produce students with high enough test scores: fire them. School board members recently voted to not just reward teachers based on test scores, but beginning next school year, teachers whose students consistently...

abcnews.go.com

Here's one study showing teacher firings aren't for bad teaching, but for being a bad employee (which is consistent with the experiences shared with me):

https://fee.org/articles/why-do-teachers-get-fired-not-for-bad-teaching/

More comments on the article:

Don Highlandersays:
April 29, 2024 at 10:22 am
I could not disagree with this conclusion more. I have been teaching high school math for over thirty years and have not used a textbook or provided materials in over a decade. That does not mean, as the author implied, that I am going rogue. I follow the district created curriculum but I do it with my own lessons and problem sets I create. I have been doing this long enough to know what trouble areas I will need to preaddress and those my students are likely to have already mastered.
In the current digital age where most of us are using some sort of learning management system I feel no need to use a middleman for my content. I can create lessons targeted to the needs of my students in a voice that they can understand. By creating my own problem sets I make it slightly harder to cheat. It also allows me the ability to create problem sets large enough for my students to have multiple attempts without seeing the same problems over and over.
This article feels like it was written by either a textbook publisher/writer or an expert who makes their living teaching others how teach. Neither of these really want to encourage teachers to act independently because it hurts their bottom line. Please remember that classroom teachers are professionals that often have decades of experience they have used to hone their skills. Textbooks and supplemental materials definitely have a place in the classroom but that does not mean we need to demonize those who have chosen to move on from them.


Sandi Kay Dobsonsays:
April 29, 2024 at 11:19 am
As a veteran of 33 years teaching math students from middle school to college, I too disagree with this article. The are many reasons why teachers will seek out materials to bolster or replace what is provided.
First, the curriculum presented by textbooks or written by state curriculum specialists does not follow the logical progression of mathematics. Instead it is a hodge-podge of concepts that will be tested. Concepts that are not tested are seldom included in the curriculum even if they are required for the tested concept.
I have also found that state curricum time frames allow few, if any, opportunities or textbook resources for revisiting basic skills. All students, including advanced students, need to have mastery of certain skills before a new topic is introduced.
Last, state math curricula does not allow for in depth teaching of even the most difficult concepts. The curriculum is compressed so that concepts are covered by state testing in early Spring.
One common example in an Algebra curriculum would be the concept of factoring. A review of the vocabulary and the process of factoring numbers is needed prior to the teaching of factoring polynomials. The length of the review would depend upon the level and skill of the students in the class. Then prior to factoring higher degree polynomials a review or lesson in long division is a prerequisite. Yet there is no time built in and scant material to allow for this necessity.
A survey focusing on teachers of a small, but admittedly growing, population gives a skewed perspective and often inaccurate answers to the posed question. A better study would ask veteran math teachers why they spend or spent so much time rewriting the curriculum and curating materials for their subjects.

 

[BradStevens]

More comments on the article:

Don Highlandersays:
April 29, 2024 at 10:22 am
I could not disagree with this conclusion more. I have been teaching high school math for over thirty years and have not used a textbook or provided materials in over a decade. That does not mean, as the author implied, that I am going rogue. I follow the district created curriculum but I do it with my own lessons and problem sets I create. I have been doing this long enough to know what trouble areas I will need to preaddress and those my students are likely to have already mastered.
In the current digital age where most of us are using some sort of learning management system I feel no need to use a middleman for my content. I can create lessons targeted to the needs of my students in a voice that they can understand. By creating my own problem sets I make it slightly harder to cheat. It also allows me the ability to create problem sets large enough for my students to have multiple attempts without seeing the same problems over and over.
This article feels like it was written by either a textbook publisher/writer or an expert who makes their living teaching others how teach. Neither of these really want to encourage teachers to act independently because it hurts their bottom line. Please remember that classroom teachers are professionals that often have decades of experience they have used to hone their skills. Textbooks and supplemental materials definitely have a place in the classroom but that does not mean we need to demonize those who have chosen to move on from them.


Sandi Kay Dobsonsays:
April 29, 2024 at 11:19 am
As a veteran of 33 years teaching math students from middle school to college, I too disagree with this article. The are many reasons why teachers will seek out materials to bolster or replace what is provided.
First, the curriculum presented by textbooks or written by state curriculum specialists does not follow the logical progression of mathematics. Instead it is a hodge-podge of concepts that will be tested. Concepts that are not tested are seldom included in the curriculum even if they are required for the tested concept.
I have also found that state curricum time frames allow few, if any, opportunities or textbook resources for revisiting basic skills. All students, including advanced students, need to have mastery of certain skills before a new topic is introduced.
Last, state math curricula does not allow for in depth teaching of even the most difficult concepts. The curriculum is compressed so that concepts are covered by state testing in early Spring.
One common example in an Algebra curriculum would be the concept of factoring. A review of the vocabulary and the process of factoring numbers is needed prior to the teaching of factoring polynomials. The length of the review would depend upon the level and skill of the students in the class. Then prior to factoring higher degree polynomials a review or lesson in long division is a prerequisite. Yet there is no time built in and scant material to allow for this necessity.
A survey focusing on teachers of a small, but admittedly growing, population gives a skewed perspective and often inaccurate answers to the posed question. A better study would ask veteran math teachers why they spend or spent so much time rewriting the curriculum and curating materials for their subjects.

More unverified anecdotes don’t really answer the questions.

 

[kraft cheese+macaroni]

More unverified anecdotes don’t really answer the questions.

They asked some reasonable questions. You seem to discount them completely, yet give full faith in textbook 'experts'. I thought you were a more curious person than that.

 

[hoot1]

Amen. Where there's big bucks involved, there is corruption, so I hardly trust a textbook publisher that makes 25% of the country's textbooks to necessarily have the student's best interests involved vs appeasing the politicians that are signing the textbook contracts.

Agree.

This thread should include e-books which have become a source for many teachers and districts.

They are often free and provide a variety of so called experts.

 

[BradStevens]

Since when is phonics a political thing? Come on now…

Not sure why this is addressed to me.

Re phonics, I don't think it is, but the Calkins cult tried to make it one. Phonics works. The data supports this about as well as anything in the field of education at this point.

 

[BradStevens]

They asked some reasonable questions. You seem to discount them completely, yet give full faith in textbook 'experts'. I thought you were a more curious person than that.

OK, you don't trust experts. Valid response, even if I don't agree with it.

Did you trust Pfizer, et al. on the covid vaccine?

 

[IU_Hickory]

This is part of the problem, as I see it: everyone thinks their teachers are above average for a host of psychological reasons. But why do you think your kid's teachers understand better how to design a curriculum than the experts?

You could expand the question to be "why do parents think they know more than teachers?"

The majority of parents definitely aren't experts in teaching but recent political propaganda have led many to think they are God's gift to education curriculum.

In my non-expert opinion, it seems we focus too much on preparing for tests and passing those tests and that too much is based on those tests. And teachers don't have much choice but to focus on those tests. That opinion has come from quite a few teachers that have said as much and not from me sleeping at a holiday inn.

Does an author that writes a history book make them an expert on teaching what is in the book? Or someone that puts together a math book make them an expert at teaching math? And that ignores that not every kid learns the same and that often times teaching methods change over the years but books aren't constantly re-written to keep up. Even the author of a book may not think their book is perfect 10 years after the fact and for every kid and their learning style.

 

[mcmurtry66]

You could expand the question to be "why do parents think they know more than teachers?"

The majority of parents definitely aren't experts in teaching but recent political propaganda have led many to think they are God's gift to education curriculum.

In my non-expert opinion, it seems we focus too much on preparing for tests and passing those tests and that too much is based on those tests. That opinion has come from quite a few teachers that have said as much and not from me sleeping at a holiday inn.

No political propaganda chief. Crt. Alex in wonderland. Mood Mondays. On and on. Stupid time to lose focus on the backend of Covid with numerous studies reflecting students lost ground. and i trust that's what underlies some of this - the concern that there’s a deviation from what experts have presumably researched and vetted vs the vagaries of whatever goofy/woke/righty/lazy teacher might want to substitute

 

[BradStevens]

Amen. Where there's big bucks involved, there is corruption, so I hardly trust a textbook publisher that makes 25% of the country's textbooks to necessarily have the student's best interests involved vs appeasing the politicians that are signing the textbook contracts.

I don't get this type of thinking.

If we are going to take the financial incentives of the textbook publishers into account, wouldn't they make MORE money by developing a superior product, raising the test scores on which those politicians and local superintendents are judged?

Also, textbooks aren't written and developed by corporate bean counters--they are mainly written and developed by people who study this stuff for their careers and hold doctorates in the subject matter. Are they in on it, too? Such reasoning is another flavor of a conspiracy theory, isn't it?

Here's a random high school history textbook I found. Does anyone have any evidence its authors are "corrupt?"

The American Pageant - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[kraft cheese+macaroni]

OK, you don't trust experts. Valid response, even if I don't agree with it.

Did you trust Pfizer, et al. on the covid vaccine?

I got a variety of opinions, including my GP and those who I know that work at places like Lilly and other pharma places or with science backgrounds and weighed all of those opinions vs. the risks. For example, I got the vaccine when covid was killing lots of people. I have not, however, chosen to get boosted now that covid more or less ends up with minor cold/flu outcomes for most.

 

[BradStevens]

I got a variety of opinions, including my GP and those who I know that work at places like Lilly and other pharma places or with science backgrounds and weighed all of those opinions vs. the risks. For example, I got the vaccine when covid was killing lots of people. I have not, however, chosen to get boosted now that covid more or less ends up with minor cold/flu outcomes for most.

That's fair.

But note you seem to have trusted the opinions of people who work at Lilly and other pharma companies who make money off these vaccines, and your doctor, who I assume makes a lot of money for his or her services. So why not trust that those in academia putting together these textbooks are trying to do their best to educate, even though they made money working on those textbooks?

 

[kraft cheese+macaroni]

I don't get this type of thinking.

If we are going to take the financial incentives of the textbook publishers into account, wouldn't they make MORE money by developing a superior product, raising the test scores on which those politicians and local superintendents are judged?

Also, textbooks aren't written and developed by corporate bean counters--they are mainly written and developed by people who study this stuff for their careers and hold doctorates in the subject matter. Are they in on it, too? Such reasoning is another flavor of a conspiracy theory, isn't it?

Here's a random high school history textbook I found. Does anyone have any evidence its authors are "corrupt?"

The American Pageant - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You're comingn across to me as if you think that if you put 20 experts in aroom and asked them to write a textbook, that you'd come up with 1-2 variations, but essentially all of the 'experts' would agree on what that text book should include and how it should be written. With some topics, that might be true. With others, I think that's a really inaccurate portrayal of reality. You can find experts on every topic that will disagree with other experts on the same topic. And to an extent, both could be correct.

I'm surprised you don't think politics or corruption doesn't play a role in textbook selection.

 

[kraft cheese+macaroni]

That's fair.

But note you seem to have trusted the opinions of people who work at Lilly and other pharma companies who make money off these vaccines, and your doctor, who I assume makes a lot of money for his or her services. So why not trust that those in academia putting together these textbooks are trying to do their best to educate, even though they made money working on those textbooks?

I hav eonly read a small portion of this so far, but I found it interesting. You might as well: chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://digitalcommons.butler.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1356&context=ugtheses

Why not trust that those teachers who are teaching from other materials are trying to do their best to educate their specific classes in the best manor they see fit?

It all comes down to you not trusting teachers and me not trusting 'expert' textbook writers or, more specifically, the politicians that make up the boards approving the textbooks.

Teachers ain't in it to get rich...textbook companies are. That's my viewpoint.

 

[BradStevens]

You're comingn across to me as if you think that if you put 20 experts in aroom and asked them to write a textbook, that you'd come up with 1-2 variations, but essentially all of the 'experts' would agree on what that text book should include and how it should be written. With some topics, that might be true. With others, I think that's a really inaccurate portrayal of reality. You can find experts on every topic that will disagree with other experts on the same topic. And to an extent, both could be correct.

I'm surprised you don't think politics or corruption doesn't play a role in textbook selection.

Corruption: Don't you have to have some evidence of that?

Politics: Ok, lets assume there is politics in the literature or social studies textbook. It's there. You can see it. Read it. And each school board can determine the right one for them. But if you think politics does play a role in curriculum choice, you have to admit it will for the teacher as well, right? So again, we're back to: who chooses? With a textbook and school board, you at least have a chance to affect their decision and you have transparency. Not so with a teacher making ad hoc decisions on what to include in a class.