Sandra Bland thoughts?

[Marvin the Martian]

Since I made that post

I have seen where cops are trained to ask a subject to extinguish a lighted cigerette. But you are correct, he could have explained why. OTOH, she was in no mood to be part of a rational conversation.

It is probably up to the department. I saw on CNN who I believe is a Texas trooper who said they are not trained to do that.

The elephant here is that blacks routinely say their interactions with police are different. This MAY show that. Blacks may be a bit defensive about police and may show it. Police may be a bit more forceful in dealing with blacks.

A former pastor mentioned in a sermon that he has a black nice and nephew. One is a grad student at Stanford, the other an undergrad at Northwestern. He said they have told him just how different police interactions are even though they are not the inner city demographic. For illustration #2, see Johnny Cochran being pulled while a DA for driving while Black.

I do think she had a bad attitude. I completely understand if the officer would have said "I want to give you a warning but you are making that very hard" (since he said he originally was going to give her a warning). But it seems at some point he went nuclear over her attitude. It is a common reaction. I am sure more than a few umpires desperately wanted to kick dirt at Billy Martin. But training has to prevent that. In this case, based on what is available, it seems the officer broke his training to kick dirt back.

It sort of reminds me of the training civil rights volunteers had in the 60s. Or what Jackie Robinson was told was required of him. It may not be fair, but that has to be what is required of officers, umpires, and referees.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

It is probably up to the department. I saw on CNN who I believe is a Texas trooper who said they are not trained to do that.

The elephant here is that blacks routinely say their interactions with police are different. This MAY show that. Blacks may be a bit defensive about police and may show it. Police may be a bit more forceful in dealing with blacks.

A former pastor mentioned in a sermon that he has a black nice and nephew. One is a grad student at Stanford, the other an undergrad at Northwestern. He said they have told him just how different police interactions are even though they are not the inner city demographic. For illustration #2, see Johnny Cochran being pulled while a DA for driving while Black.

I do think she had a bad attitude. I completely understand if the officer would have said "I want to give you a warning but you are making that very hard" (since he said he originally was going to give her a warning). But it seems at some point he went nuclear over her attitude. It is a common reaction. I am sure more than a few umpires desperately wanted to kick dirt at Billy Martin. But training has to prevent that. In this case, based on what is available, it seems the officer broke his training to kick dirt back.

It sort of reminds me of the training civil rights volunteers had in the 60s. Or what Jackie Robinson was told was required of him. It may not be fair, but that has to be what is required of officers, umpires, and referees.

How do we get to the point that AA subjects don't want to provoke a white cop into breaking training?

Not to diminish the fact that some officers likely are racist, but based upon the news reports of the recent publicized incidents, the AA subjects were all wanting to create a situation. Four of them died because of that. The aftermath produced lots of provocative behavior that was met with everything from very aggressive response to completely passive responses. None of it worked well.

We know that thousands of interracial contacts occur daily without incident. It would be nice to diffuse the all incidents. But there is much to be gained by not doing that. It seems to me that we have politicized policing to the point where some AA's are feeling empowered, if not justified, to provoke a white cop. And politicians on both sides use these conflicts to actively pander to a voting "base".

 

[NPT]

How hard would it be to explain "mam, would you put that cigarette in the tray, we routinely make that request so no one accidentally gets burned". If she can quickly reach and yank it out of the tray and get the officer I have to question the officer's reflexes. There easily could be a knife or gun just out of his view.

Second, why does he have to reach into the car to hand paperwork to her. Drive through restaurants and pharmacies never reach into my car to take money or hand me product. It always is me reaching outside the car. If he has to reach into the car, policy must be changed. Paperwork must be rigid enough it will pass into a window leaving the hand outside the car. If he is reaching in, could she not easily grab his arm and floor it? If officers are reaching in we must change this now for their safety.

I wonder how many McDonald's employees are burned by cigarettes in a year? Do not reach in.

Addendum edit. There are people who want to be police because of the power/respect of the job. I have heard people say they want to be an officer because the people HAVE to respect them. To be fair, police are aware of this and have tests to try and weed them out, with good success. At first blush, that seems to be the problem here. He gave an order, somewhat frivolous in my mind for the reasons above, and she did not comply. At that moment he changed. It appears he was not happy he was not given that respect. Mind you, I would comply with such a request. But I do not buy one must do so immediately. He could have explained his reasoning, this was not a "drop that gun" moment where we all would understand an officer not launching into a monolog. At this moment, he has no known reason not to explain himself. Many of us have jobs we have to explain our requests. The cigarette request just does not seem to fall into a health and safety imparative.

Good post..... I agree with all of that.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

How do we get to the point that AA subjects don't want to provoke a white cop into breaking training?

Not to diminish the fact that some officers likely are racist, but based upon the news reports of the recent publicized incidents, the AA subjects were all wanting to create a situation. Four of them died because of that. The aftermath produced lots of provocative behavior that was met with everything from very aggressive response to completely passive responses. None of it worked well.

We know that thousands of interracial contacts occur daily without incident. It would be nice to diffuse the all incidents. But there is much to be gained by not doing that. It seems to me that we have politicized policing to the point where some AA's are feeling empowered, if not justified, to provoke a white cop. And politicians on both sides use these conflicts to actively pander to a voting "base".

Wow. That's seriously your take? That all these black folks WANTED an escalating situation?

Easily one of your worst posts ever.

 

[zeke4ahs]

How do we get to the point that AA subjects don't want to provoke a white cop into breaking training?

Not to diminish the fact that some officers likely are racist, but based upon the news reports of the recent publicized incidents, the AA subjects were all wanting to create a situation. Four of them died because of that. The aftermath produced lots of provocative behavior that was met with everything from very aggressive response to completely passive responses. None of it worked well.

We know that thousands of interracial contacts occur daily without incident. It would be nice to diffuse the all incidents. But there is much to be gained by not doing that. It seems to me that we have politicized policing to the point where some AA's are feeling empowered, if not justified, to provoke a white cop. And politicians on both sides use these conflicts to actively pander to a voting "base".

There's a difference in trying to provoke and just being ticked off. I think many AA people these days have tired of hearing about these types of episodes. She has probably had experience in the past of being pulled over for DWB, and felt this was the same. Everyone gets annoyed for getting pulled over, but at least most of us have never dealt with getting pulled over because of our race. Whether or not this was the case here, I don't know. But she prob felt it was. It's easy to say don't have attitude, harder to do it.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Wow. That's seriously your take? That all these black folks WANTED an escalating situation?

Easily one of your worst posts ever.

Wow. That's seriously your take? That all these black folks WANTED an escalating situation?

Easily one of your worst posts ever.

That's pathetic

Brown and Garner are dead. Brown committed a felonious assault on the cop for no apparent reason, the other resisted several lawful commands about which he had a history of prior arrests.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

There's a difference in trying to provoke and just being ticked off. I think many AA people these days have tired of hearing about these types of episodes. She has probably had experience in the past of being pulled over for DWB, and felt this was the same. Everyone gets annoyed for getting pulled over, but at least most of us have never dealt with getting pulled over because of our race. Whether or not this was the case here, I don't know. But she prob felt it was. It's easy to say don't have attitude, harder to do it.

Did you watch the video?

There is no way the cop knew her race when he put on his lights. Maybe she was tired of hearing about these types of episodes. Who keeps blowing the episodes out of proportion? Sharpton, Obama and Holder made a big deal out of a white cop black subject murder in Ferguson, and there was nothing there, just as the grand jury determined. All the DOJ could manage was some sketchy statistical evidence of racism much of which is readily explained. Same with Trayvon.

 

[zeke4ahs]

Did you watch the video?

There is no way the cop knew her race when he put on his lights. Maybe she was tired of hearing about these types of episodes. Who keeps blowing the episodes out of proportion? Sharpton, Obama and Holder made a big deal out of a white cop black subject murder in Ferguson, and there was nothing there, just as the grand jury determined. All the DOJ could manage was some sketchy statistical evidence of racism much of which is readily explained. Same with Trayvon.

Well I disagree that they are blown out of proportion. I think there is no doubt a troubling pattern that is occurring within the police throughout the country. They have to start doing a better job getting rid of the bad ones and not covering up for them. And I am pretty sure Trayvon would be alive today if he was white. I bet the officer would have yanked a mouthy little blonde in a bikini just like he did the girl with braids too, right? Blaming it on Obama? It's probably his fault because he's brought the hidden racist out of many, many people. Sadly.

 

[Iudanapoint]

The conservative view: "Cops are likely to be assholes, so you'd better suck up to them if you don't want to be abused."

The liberal view:

What an incredibly stupid post. Its impossible to take a caricature like you seriously.

 

[mike41703]

. And I am pretty sure Trayvon would be alive today if he was white.

Weak zeke.

That's some good trolling there, though.

 

[Iudanapoint]

Well I disagree that they are blown out of proportion. I think there is no doubt a troubling pattern that is occurring within the police throughout the country. They have to start doing a better job getting rid of the bad ones and not covering up for them. And I am pretty sure Trayvon would be alive today if he was white. I bet the officer would have yanked a mouthy little blonde in a bikini just like he did the girl with braids too, right? Blaming it on Obama? It's probably his fault because he's brought the hidden racist out of many, many people. Sadly.

The vast majority of police - citizen transactions result in warnings, tickets, questionings or arrests, but little else. Most cops do their jobs with a high level of professionalism and care / concern for the public, including those whom they are questioning or citing or arresting. And most citizens, while likely not happy to be stopped or arrested by the police, nonetheless behave respectfully and without an abrasive or combative attitude.

In other words, the vast majority of people on both sides of the situation do it right, overwhelmingly, every day. In this instance, neither the cop nor the lady conducted themselves properly, and each had a significant hand in escalating what should have been a very manageable scenario.

But these situations, however unfortunate, are still rare. Even one is too many and there are lessons for all parties but, yes, they're blown wildly out of proportion by those with personal, and often extremely partisan, agendas.

 

[SuperHoosierFan]

Since I made that post

I have seen where cops are trained to ask a subject to extinguish a lighted cigerette. But you are correct, he could have explained why. OTOH, she was in no mood to be part of a rational conversation.

This all could have been avoided had Bland made better life choices and not taken up smoking. It's her fault.

 

[zeke4ahs]

The vast majority of police - citizen transactions result in warnings, tickets, questionings or arrests, but little else. Most cops do their jobs with a high level of professionalism and care / concern for the public, including those whom they are questioning or citing or arresting. And most citizens, while likely not happy to be stopped or arrested by the police, nonetheless behave respectfully and without an abrasive or combative attitude.

In other words, the vast majority of people on both sides of the situation do it right, overwhelmingly, every day. In this instance, neither the cop nor the lady conducted themselves properly, and each had a significant hand in escalating what should have been a very manageable scenario.

But these situations, however unfortunate, are still rare. Even one is too many and there are lessons for all parties but, yes, they're blown wildly out of proportion by those with personal, and often extremely partisan, agendas.

Oh I agree that the large majority do it the right way. I have several friends that are police officers or married to them. But they too are concerned about the numbers of bad policing documented lately. It's probably always been that way, but everything is on camera now. It's like any profession, they need to figure out a way to get rid of the bad ones and stop covering up for them. Everyone knows the bad teacher, the one that shows movies all day and does as little as possible. Everyone knows the bad cop, the one that has a hair trigger temper, the one that got into it for power, not to help people.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Well I disagree that they are blown out of proportion. I think there is no doubt a troubling pattern that is occurring within the police throughout the country. They have to start doing a better job getting rid of the bad ones and not covering up for them. And I am pretty sure Trayvon would be alive today if he was white. I bet the officer would have yanked a mouthy little blonde in a bikini just like he did the girl with braids too, right? Blaming it on Obama? It's probably his fault because he's brought the hidden racist out of many, many people. Sadly.

"I think there is no doubt a troubling pattern that is occurring within the police throughout the country."

The cops are better trained than ever in deescalation techniques. Thousands of interracial contacts occur daily without a problem. In the world if instant recording and publication of events, the lack of scores of daily incidents is a good thing. But, there is indeed a trend. The trend is that some, maybe many, who are contacted by the police, especially by a cop of a different race, are feeling empowered like never before to challenge every officer command. Cops need to manage this reality. Yesterday's training won't meet tomorrow's provocation. In the world where racial conflicts have devolved into dealing with microagressions, things will get worse. We can't now expect the public to calm the waters, the police must do that. Maybe you think hidden racissm is the same as microagressions, but I don't. And yeah, the administration's hamfisted approach in Ferguson contributed to the problem.