Sandra Bland thoughts?

[zeke4ahs]

Trying to get the facts before jumping to conclusions, but my two big questions: was the videotape edited and if the marijuana in the jail is true, how in the world does that happen. Additionally, can you really hang yourself with a trash bag and why was there one in the room?

 

[Standard Issue]

The only part of the scenario we have any access to is the video and if it's been edited that will cause a huge uproar and heads will roll; as they should. But it does make me want to ask a question of the board.

Didn't everyone get the speech from their parents about how to behave if you're stopped by the police?
1. Hands on the wheel unless instructed to do something.
2. Yes Sir/Ma'am No Sir/Ma'am
3. Be polite
4. Do what they tell you
5. Don't tell them you know your rights (Ok I added this one)

I realize bad cops will do bad things, but it seems like there are a fair number people that don't have the common sense not to piss off the guy standing at your window with a badge and a gun.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

The only part of the scenario we have any access to is the video and if it's been edited that will cause a huge uproar and heads will roll; as they should. But it does make me want to ask a question of the board.

Didn't everyone get the speech from their parents about how to behave if you're stopped by the police?
1. Hands on the wheel unless instructed to do something.
2. Yes Sir/Ma'am No Sir/Ma'am
3. Be polite
4. Do what they tell you
5. Don't tell them you know your rights (Ok I added this one)

I realize bad cops will do bad things, but it seems like there are a fair number people that don't have the common sense not to piss off the guy standing at your window with a badge and a gun.

I think in this case, the issue isn't how she behaved, but how the cop behaved. Of course the smart thing to do is always be as polite as possible when dealing with a cop, but shouldn't the discussion right now be about how the cops should be professional and courteous? I don't think I've heard a single person defend how that cop behaved during that traffic stop.

Bland never should have been in jail to begin with.

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

Trying to get the facts before jumping to conclusions, but my two big questions: was the videotape edited and if the marijuana in the jail is true, how in the world does that happen. Additionally, can you really hang yourself with a trash bag and why was there one in the room?

1. The cop acted like an ass. The "I don't have to take crap from you" attitude and lack of civil mutual respect is damaging society in general, and when its a cop its worse. Too many good cops taking crap because of bad cops.

2. If she killed herself over that arrest, she was unbalanced and should have been in treatment, not walking/driving around waiting for a suicide trigger..

3. The "mental health" "profession" needs to get its crap together. We have crazy people and crazy violent people walking around everywhere, harming themselves and others, and the best we get from the industry is "Huh? Really? Whodathunkk it? Its haaaard to predict that." They ask a guy "do you have suidicdal thoughts? homicidal thoughts?" and when they say "no" that's the end of the inquiry. Pay at the desk on your way out.

 

[Standard Issue]

I think in this case, the issue isn't how she behaved, but how the cop behaved. Of course the smart thing to do is always be as polite as possible when dealing with a cop, but shouldn't the discussion right now be about how the cops should be professional and courteous? I don't think I've heard a single person defend how that cop behaved during that traffic stop.

Bland never should have been in jail to begin with.

Oh I'm not saying the cop showed the most professional behavior but he didn't act any differently than the ones I've had the misfortune to meet while they were on duty. Right or mostly wrong she ended up in jail because she couldn't just follow some basic instructions and common sense. Is it fair she ended up dying in jail of course not; but there is very little in this life that is truly fair. In the end of the we are all trying to get through the next hour, day, year, life as safely as possible. Some of that is dependent on the behavior of others and a lot is dependent on us. In this case both parties failed in the exercise.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Oh I'm not saying the cop showed the most professional behavior but he didn't act any differently than the ones I've had the misfortune to meet while they were on duty. Right or mostly wrong she ended up in jail because she couldn't just follow some basic instructions and common sense. Is it fair she ended up dying in jail of course not; but there is very little in this life that is truly fair. In the end of the we are all trying to get through the next hour, day, year, life as safely as possible. Some of that is dependent on the behavior of others and a lot is dependent on us. In this case both parties failed in the exercise.

Did you watch it? What was her failure exactly that was worth getting arrested? She went to jail because this cop decided he was going to escalate te situation until he had a reason to take her to jail. This was no two-party failure. The cop was entirely in the wrong.

 

[mike41703]

Did you watch it? What was her failure exactly that was worth getting arrested? She went to jail because this cop decided he was going to escalate te situation until he had a reason to take her to jail. This was no two-party failure. The cop was entirely in the wrong.

I usually side with cops because I believe most do their dangerous job very well, but I agree here. This cop was a moron.

 

[Standard Issue]

Did you watch it? What was her failure exactly that was worth getting arrested? She went to jail because this cop decided he was going to escalate te situation until he had a reason to take her to jail. This was no two-party failure. The cop was entirely in the wrong.

Yes I watched and listened to the video and I agree with you on the cop.
My point was anytime you're dealing with the police being polite and following instructions to the letter might be in your best interest.

 

[zeke4ahs]

Yes I watched and listened to the video and I agree with you on the cop.
My point was anytime you're dealing with the police being polite and following instructions to the letter might be in your best interest.

I agree that there is a way you should behave when you are pulled over. But I think it's a little understandable how people of color might have a little chip on their shoulders these days. She thought she was getting out of his way and she was pulled over for no reason. ( in her mind).
But any thoughts on what happened in jail? She was in a cell by herself. How did she get weed? And a trash bag? Mine break when I put too much trash in it, prob around 20 pounds top.

 

[Standard Issue]

I agree that there is a way you should behave when you are pulled over. But I think it's a little understandable how people of color might have a little chip on their shoulders these days. She thought she was getting out of his way and she was pulled over for no reason. ( in her mind).
But any thoughts on what happened in jail? She was in a cell by herself. How did she get weed? And a trash bag? Mine break when I put too much trash in it, prob around 20 pounds top.

Just so you know I agree with everything you wrote.

If there weren't people in adjacent cells or some that passed through during her time there I have no idea on how she would have gotten access to the weed.

If you roll a trash bag into something more rope or band like I would imagine they could be strong enough to hold some weight.

Did they have a trash can within arms reach of the cell or in it?

Cleaning staff drop one?

 

[zeke4ahs]

Just so you know I agree with everything you wrote.

If there weren't people in adjacent cells or some that passed through during her time there I have no idea on how she would have gotten access to the weed.

If you roll a trash bag into something more rope or band like I would imagine they could be strong enough to hold some weight.

Did they have a trash can within arms reach of the cell or in it?

Cleaning staff drop one?

Yeah I'm really not accusing anyone here but I find it all a horrible and curious set of circumstances. Suppose more info may come out later.

 

[twenty02]

Think they said trash bags were used in the jail to provide privacy between cells.

I doubt they much thought of it as an issue.

 

[hootch1]

The only part of the scenario we have any access to is the video and if it's been edited that will cause a huge uproar and heads will roll; as they should. But it does make me want to ask a question of the board.

Didn't everyone get the speech from their parents about how to behave if you're stopped by the police?
1. Hands on the wheel unless instructed to do something.
2. Yes Sir/Ma'am No Sir/Ma'am
3. Be polite
4. Do what they tell you
5. Don't tell them you know your rights (Ok I added this one)

I realize bad cops will do bad things, but it seems like there are a fair number people that don't have the common sense not to piss off the guy standing at your window with a badge and a gun.

Have you seen the recent video from NYC? Cop confronts perp. Perp raises hands. Second cop comes in and starts beating the guy with his hands up. First cop joins in the beating.

Apparently, compliance can get you beaten too.

 

[NPT]

Did you watch it? What was her failure exactly that was worth getting arrested? She went to jail because this cop decided he was going to escalate te situation until he had a reason to take her to jail. This was no two-party failure. The cop was entirely in the wrong.

I agree. IMO the cop had no right to order her to extinguish her cigarette. He got his ego bruised when she didn't do what he said. My question is where does the limit of a cops power end? I think a lot of them think they have absolute power and you're suppose to do anything they say. That cop should be fired....if they would fire people for acting like this then maybe the others would get the hint that they have to behave also.

 

[Standard Issue]

Have you seen the recent video from NYC? Cop confronts perp. Perp raises hands. Second cop comes in and starts beating the guy with his hands up. First cop joins in the beating.

Apparently, compliance can get you beaten too.

I was thinking more about traffic violations.
But I wasn't suggesting that compliance would cure bad behavior by the police.
But rather it might help keep your interaction from escalating into something worse if it could go either way.

 

[The one and only ACE]

Did you watch it? What was her failure exactly that was worth getting arrested? She went to jail because this cop decided he was going to escalate te situation until he had a reason to take her to jail. This was no two-party failure. The cop was entirely in the wrong.

The cop's attitude was wrong but in the end, you do not kick a cop, period.

 

[hootch1]

The cop's attitude was wrong but in the end, you do not kick a cop, period.

So, if a cop is pounding you with no provocation you should just "lay there and enoy it".

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

The cop's attitude was wrong but in the end, you do not kick a cop, period.

That highlights another absurdity of all this. He told her while she was in the car she was under arrest. He would not tell her for what. After he cuffed her, she supposedly kicked him, and this is what he ultimately put down as the reason for the arrest.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Trying to get the facts before jumping to conclusions, but my two big questions: was the videotape edited and if the marijuana in the jail is true, how in the world does that happen. Additionally, can you really hang yourself with a trash bag and why was there one in the room?

My biggest questions are:

Why did the cop ask her to get out of the vehicle
Why did the cop pull his TASER
Why did the cop ask for back-up
Why did the cop take her into custody
What is the cop's performance record
Why was she still in custody after 3 days
What does the booking video show
What was her observed demeanor while in custody
Did her family even visit or ask about her release
Did she ask for or receive medical attention or drugs
Was she evaluated by a mental health professional
Was she under a mental health hold
Was she on suicide watch
Where did she get the plastic bag

This is all just for openers. These days everything is documented in detention facilities. A review of all her documents and the officer reports would likely be helpful.

It's telling that the board pretty much lept to the conclusion that the cop screwed up and overreacted. As far as I know we have heard nothng from the cop nor from the back-up officers who showed up. Sadly all of us look at tapes like this and conclude the cop not only messed up, but whatever he might say would be self-serving lies.

It might be that the cop should be disciplined or fired. But we don't have nearly enough information to make that conclusion at this point.

 

[zeke4ahs]

The cop's attitude was wrong but in the end, you do not kick a cop, period.

How do we know she kicked the officer? It conveniently enough, wasn't recorded, was it?

 

[iubud]

Trying to get the facts before jumping to conclusions, but my two big questions: was the videotape edited and if the marijuana in the jail is true, how in the world does that happen. Additionally, can you really hang yourself with a trash bag and why was there one in the room?

Yes, you can hang yourself with a trash bag. It is strong enough if used as a rope.

I would be pissed if I was pulled over for not signaling, mostly because I almost always signal. I would be pissed at myself more than at the cop. I would have put my cigarette out if asked. I would have gotten out of the car if I was asked. I would not have resisted and kicked a cop. Even if she didn't mean to kick him, she was resisting and made contact with him.

He was polite while getting her information. He was polite the first time he asked her to put her cigarette out. I don't why he asked her to do that. Maybe she was blowing smoke in his face or holding it and he thought she was a threat to burn him, who knows. The key is cops can be jerks, so don't screw with them. When she refused to put the cigarette out, I would have said, "I am prepared to give you a warning, if you keep arguing and don't comply, I am going to tear this up and write a ticket. What do you want to do?"

She was getting a warning. A warning! Be very polite to a cop when they come to the window and you might get a warning. Act like a fool and you get taken to jail.

Why did she have a $5,000 bail and still in jail after 3 days? Is that typical for her charges? That is the only thing I see that was wrong.

 

[NPT]

It's telling that the board pretty much lept to the conclusion that the cop screwed up and overreacted.

Well I think you can come to that conclusion by watching the video. What leads you to believe that he might not have? First, I don't think he had any right to tell her to put out her cigarette. Secondly, it appears he got his ego bruised when she didn't. I respect cops but a lot of them has a big ego problem. Just from observing about 75% speed and and about 50% don't give turn signals.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Well I think you can come to that conclusion by watching the video. What leads you to believe that he might not have? First, I don't think he had any right to tell her to put out her cigarette. Secondly, it appears he got his ego bruised when she didn't. I respect cops but a lot of them has a big ego problem. Just from observing about 75% speed and and about 50% don't give turn signals.

That's not the point

I simply don't know if the officer was engaged in misconduct. The officer pulled his TASER and called for back up. Those are both serious escalations. Why did he do that? What does his radio transmission say about the subject? Does anybody know? Maybe he just lost his cool, but I am not going to leap to that conclusion without some explanation from the involved officer and the backups.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

He was polite while getting her information. He was polite the first time he asked her to put her cigarette out. I don't why he asked her to do that. Maybe she was blowing smoke in his face or holding it and he thought she was a threat to burn him, who knows. The key is cops can be jerks, so don't screw with them.

First of all, I don't know what video you watched. In the one I watched, he wasn't polite at all, and he clearly escalated the situation.

Second of all, yes, yes, yes, don't screw with cops. We all get it. Can we just agree that it's best not to screw with cops, and move on to dealing with the fact that cops can be jerks in the first place? Can we all simply agree that obedience and politeness is the best strategy for dealing with cops, and then move on to the fact that it's a problem that one even needs to have a strategy?

Remember this video?


Isn't that how we want cops to react? Sandra Bland was nowhere near as upset and confrontational as that man. Why didn't she get that level of understanding?

 

[Marvin the Martian]

If I were asked by an officer to do something like put out a cigarette I would. But I believe in our country people have a certain right to be smartasses. She was well within her right to tell the officer heck no. If he cannot deal with that, that is his problem.

I heard some talking head say he was wrong, but that she should have complied the filed a complaint. I wonder what that would have done. Color me extremely doubtful her complaint about being forced to extenguish her cigarette would have been a concern of the department.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

If I were asked by an officer to do something like put out a cigarette I would. But I believe in our country people have a certain right to be smartasses. She was well within her right to tell the officer heck no. If he cannot deal with that, that is his problem.

I heard some talking head say he was wrong, but that she should have complied the filed a complaint. I wonder what that would have done. Color me extremely doubtful her complaint about being forced to extenguish her cigarette would have been a concern of the department.

If you were an officer

And wanted to deliver a warning citation to a woman who was being a smartass, and she had a lighted cigerette in her hand, would you put your hand through her window to give her the paperwork?

I don't think I would do that, but that's just me. Maybe you would.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I heard some talking head say he was wrong, but that she should have complied the filed a complaint. I wonder what that would have done. Color me extremely doubtful her complaint about being forced to extenguish her cigarette would have been a concern of the department.

I simply don't know if the officer was engaged in misconduct.

Cops seem to be split 50/50 on how he handled the situation. His own superiors have already said that, at the very least, the video proves that he didn't exercise the professionalism and courteousness they demand of their officers. I think, if they actually reviewed the tape as a result of her complaint, they may have done something.

I don't know if the officer being unprofessional amounts to misconduct, but I will say this again: he told her she was under arrest while she was in the car. When she was booked, the arrest was put down for what happened after she'd been cuffed. I don't think it could be any clearer that the officer had decided to escalate the situation for whatever reason, and her giving him a kick was the justification he used after the fact. If he had simply remained professional throughout, it never would have gotten to the point that the arrest was technically for.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Cops seem to be split 50/50 on how he handled the situation. His own superiors have already said that, at the very least, the video proves that he didn't exercise the professionalism and courteousness they demand of their officers. I think, if they actually reviewed the tape as a result of her complaint, they may have done something.

I don't know if the officer being unprofessional amounts to misconduct, but I will say this again: he told her she was under arrest while she was in the car. When she was booked, the arrest was put down for what happened after she'd been cuffed. I don't think it could be any clearer that the officer had decided to escalate the situation for whatever reason, and her giving him a kick was the justification he used after the fact. If he had simply remained professional throughout, it never would have gotten to the point that the arrest was technically for.

How do you know what the booking sheet says?

Are the incident reports made by the officers public? Is the booking sheet public? Have you seen them? Can you link them? Those would be very helpful.

As for the public comments of the supervisors, I can't disagree with any of that. Officers shouldn't lose their cool no matter what the provocation. But he escalated beyond a "loss of cool" situation IMHO. I'd like to know why.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

How do you know what the booking sheet says?

Are the incident reports made by the officers public? Is the booking sheet public? Have you seen them? Can you link them? Those would be very helpful.

As for the public comments of the supervisors, I can't disagree with any of that. Officers shouldn't lose their cool no matter what the provocation. But he escalated beyond a "loss of cool" situation IMHO. I'd like to know why.

Here you go. Arrest report is on page six.
http://documents.latimes.com/booking-documents-sandra-bland/
Also worth noting is that she had recently tried to commit suicide. So, there is a very real chance that someone in the jail screwed up, too, in terms of observation procedures and safety precautions. I'm sure that will be a major part of the investigation.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Here you go. Arrest report is on page six.
http://documents.latimes.com/booking-documents-sandra-bland/
Also worth noting is that she had recently tried to commit suicide. So, there is a very real chance that someone in the jail screwed up, too, in terms of observation procedures and safety precautions. I'm sure that will be a major part of the investigation.

Those are the booking forms

They don't contain the report of the arresting officer. I watched the video again, the one without the hops skips and jumps. He was very polite at the previous stop and very polite at the beginning of this one. Then something suddenly set him off. I'm curious about that. FWIW, I don't think he had any idea what race she was until he walked up to the car.

 

[The one and only ACE]

Well I think you can come to that conclusion by watching the video. What leads you to believe that he might not have? First, I don't think he had any right to tell her to put out her cigarette. Secondly, it appears he got his ego bruised when she didn't. I respect cops but a lot of them has a big ego problem. Just from observing about 75% speed and and about 50% don't give turn signals.

Not going to argue anymore but a lot of cops do have people put out their cigarettes so they cant be burned by them.

 

[Rockfish1]

The conservative view: "Cops are likely to be assholes, so you'd better suck up to them if you don't want to be abused."

The liberal view:

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Those are the booking forms

They don't contain the report of the arresting officer. I watched the video again, the one without the hops skips and jumps. He was very polite at the previous stop and very polite at the beginning of this one. Then something suddenly set him off. I'm curious about that. FWIW, I don't think he had any idea what race she was until he walked up to the car.

Page Six. Like I said. It's titled "Arrest Report," I believe. It doesn't look like a full incident report, but combined with the transcript from the video, it's clear that she was arrested for kicking him, which only happened after he had already told her she was under arrest (and despite being asked by her, refusing to tell her on what charge).

 

[NPT]

First of all, I don't know what video you watched. In the one I watched, he wasn't polite at all, and he clearly escalated the situation.

He was polite until he asked her to put out the cigarette and she didn't comply.

 

[NPT]

The conservative view: "Cops are likely to be assholes, so you'd better suck up to them if you don't want to be abused."

The liberal view:

More BS from Rock. That is like me saying liberals views of police are that cops are likely to be really nice people so it's okay to resist and cuss at them.

 

[NPT]

This is the way a cop should act. The guy getting the ticket is acting like an AH but the cop never loses his cool.

 

[hootch1]

This is how cops should not act.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

If you were an officer

And wanted to deliver a warning citation to a woman who was being a smartass, and she had a lighted cigerette in her hand, would you put your hand through her window to give her the paperwork?

I don't think I would do that, but that's just me. Maybe you would.

How hard would it be to explain "mam, would you put that cigarette in the tray, we routinely make that request so no one accidentally gets burned". If she can quickly reach and yank it out of the tray and get the officer I have to question the officer's reflexes. There easily could be a knife or gun just out of his view.

Second, why does he have to reach into the car to hand paperwork to her. Drive through restaurants and pharmacies never reach into my car to take money or hand me product. It always is me reaching outside the car. If he has to reach into the car, policy must be changed. Paperwork must be rigid enough it will pass into a window leaving the hand outside the car. If he is reaching in, could she not easily grab his arm and floor it? If officers are reaching in we must change this now for their safety.

I wonder how many McDonald's employees are burned by cigarettes in a year? Do not reach in.

Addendum edit. There are people who want to be police because of the power/respect of the job. I have heard people say they want to be an officer because the people HAVE to respect them. To be fair, police are aware of this and have tests to try and weed them out, with good success. At first blush, that seems to be the problem here. He gave an order, somewhat frivolous in my mind for the reasons above, and she did not comply. At that moment he changed. It appears he was not happy he was not given that respect. Mind you, I would comply with such a request. But I do not buy one must do so immediately. He could have explained his reasoning, this was not a "drop that gun" moment where we all would understand an officer not launching into a monolog. At this moment, he has no known reason not to explain himself. Many of us have jobs we have to explain our requests. The cigarette request just does not seem to fall into a health and safety imparative.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

How hard would it be to explain "mam, would you put that cigarette in the tray, we routinely make that request so no one accidentally gets burned". If she can quickly reach and yank it out of the tray and get the officer I have to question the officer's reflexes. There easily could be a knife or gun just out of his view.

Second, why does he have to reach into the car to hand paperwork to her. Drive through restaurants and pharmacies never reach into my car to take money or hand me product. It always is me reaching outside the car. If he has to reach into the car, policy must be changed. Paperwork must be rigid enough it will pass into a window leaving the hand outside the car. If he is reaching in, could she not easily grab his arm and floor it? If officers are reaching in we must change this now for their safety.

I wonder how many McDonald's employees are burned by cigarettes in a year? Do not reach in.

Since I made that post

I have seen where cops are trained to ask a subject to extinguish a lighted cigerette. But you are correct, he could have explained why. OTOH, she was in no mood to be part of a rational conversation.

 

[hootch1]

This is not the first time these issues have come up. The militarize police have evolved into an us versus them mentality in some areas. Sue Rahr who served as the sheriff of King County Washington and is the director of Washington State's police academy. She spoke about the impact that she saw.

SUE RAHR: This is something that has bothered me for the last couple of years.


KASTE: She says it really hit her about two years ago when she took over at the Academy.


RAHR: After 33 years in law enforcement, I was surprised at how militaristic the training regiment had become.


KASTE: The Academy had become a kind of boot camp, and aspiring police officers were expected to snap to attention - their eyes front like soldiers. She says the Academy was teaching these new cops to be cold and distant, instead of being friendly communicators. And she thinks there's been a nationwide evolution in the mindset of police - that it's gone from beat cop to Robocop, from guardian to warrior.


RAHR: The mindset of a guardian is I am here to protect. The mindset of a warrior is I'm here to conquer. We're not sending police officers into communities to conquer them.

In another interview with NPR she talks about how she changed the focus to supporting the Constitution instead of getting around it.