To that point, if Jeffrey Epstein's client list magically materialized and Clinton AND Trump were both confirmed to be on that list, I don't think there would be very many Americans all that surprised.
I’m not going back and watching the video of when Biden was on a stage, in front of several cameras, talking about firing the prosecutor to get the exact wording, but there was a part when Joe said the person he was talking to said something to Joe like “you don’t have the authority, I’ll call the president” and Joe replied “call him”. To anyone that comment says Joe was doing this on behalf of President Obama and not Joe’s personal crusade. Besides, the alleged corruption regarding Burisma was from the 2010-2012 time period, Hunter was there from ‘14-‘18. Plus Shokin’s own deputy prosecutor said the investigation wasn’t even going on anymore when Shokin was fired. The diamond prosecutors is a great story about Shokin and his lack of prosecutions/convictions.
" We have state department memos that show firing Shokin was almost certainly NOT official U.S. policy and came solely from the Biden camp."
www.reuters.com
www.rferl.org
You may want to "look at the timeline"... First off I can guarantee that you can't find a single contemporary (2015-16) source claiming that Shokin was "investigating" Burisma. You may find after the fact revisionists claiming that he was, but in 2015 and 2016 people were UNANIMOUS in maintaining that Shokin was NOT doing his job. And as Ambassador Pyatt pointed out in his speech on corruption within Ukraine (in Sept 2015) the fact that Shokin's office was complicit in allowing Zlochevsky to transport stolen,illegal funds to Cyprus was why the US,UK,IMF, and protestors in Ukraine ALL wanted Shokin fired...
He has his photoshop team working around the clock to get a response. btw, tl : dr just kidding." We have state department memos that show firing Shokin was almost certainly NOT official U.S. policy and came solely from the Biden camp."
Feel free to link those, as well as any source from 2015-16 discussing Shokin's "investigation" of Burisma...
If you read my response to DANC, you'll see that in his Sept 2015 speech US Ambassador Pyatt specifically lauded the appointment of Vitaly Kasko as the IG within the PGO. In Feb 2016, 2 months AFTER Biden called for Shokin's dismissal Kasko resigned and said this in a televised statement
“Today, the General Prosecutor’s office is a brake on the reform of criminal justice, a hotbed of corruption, an instrument of political pressure, one of the key obstacles to the arrival of foreign investment in Ukraine."
Check out the title of this article from Kyiv Post
UPDATES: Criticism fierce as anti-corruption prosecutor Kasko resigns, citing obstruction by Shokin - Feb. 15, 2016
In this farewell press conference, Kasko cited corruption and sabotage by General Prosecutor Viktor Shokin… - Feb. 15, 2016. By Oleg Sukhov and Alyona Zhukarchive.kyivpost.com
This was the 2nd pro-US Ministor to resign within 2 weeks. In response US Ambassador Pyatt called Kasko "
“a champion for change”. Pyatt tweeted...
“His resignation is a blow to #Ukraine’s reform progress ... #Ukraine deserves a clean judiciary. Will require top-to-bottom rule of law reform to address pervasive corruption + cronyism,”.
Ukrainian prosecutor quits over corruption as government teeters
A senior Ukrainian prosecutor resigned on Monday, calling the office he worked for a "hotbed of corruption", another blow to government attempts to clean up the judiciary, a crucial step to unlock more Western aid.
Now tell me again that the US (and UK,IMF,Ukrainian reformers) all didn't want Shokin fired...
As for reformers within Ukraine...
Protesters Demand Dismissal Of Ukrainian Prosecutor
Dozens of activists gathered in central Kyiv have demanded an immediate dismissal of Ukraine's embattled Prosecutor-General Viktor Shokin.
You made ignorant comments about my read of the situation. Show us what ya got...
You may want to "look at the timeline"... First off I can guarantee that you can't find a single contemporary (2015-16) source claiming that Shokin was "investigating" Burisma. You may find after the fact revisionists claiming that he was, but in 2015 and 2016 people were UNANIMOUS in maintaining that Shokin was NOT doing his job. And as Ambassador Pyatt pointed out in his speech on corruption within Ukraine (in Sept 2015) the fact that Shokin's office was complicit in allowing Zlochevsky to transport stolen,illegal funds to Cyprus was why the US,UK,IMF, and protestors in Ukraine ALL wanted Shokin fired...
See there are official transcripts which defy what revisionists claim. Btw, in case you're unaware (as if there's any doubt of that) the entire reason Zlochevsky was deemed a financial criminal and was forced to flee Ukraine for Cyprus, was that as Ecology Minister he was accused of taking bribes to grant gas exploration leases to Burisma and to other companies owned by his fellow oligarch buddies...
But you see that was PRIOR to the Feb 2014 Revolution when Yanukovych fled to Russia, and members of his Government (like Zlochevsky) were deposed. You see, it was part of Burisma's efforts to rehab their reputation with the West that resulted in them hiring people like Archer,Hunter B, and the former President of Poland. But the crimes Shokin was supposed to be investigating (regarding Burisma) occurred BEFORE Hunter Biden was hired and had NOTHING to do with Hunter.
So anybody claiming that Shokin was investigating Hunter is a moron and a liar. Moreover, it was the PGO's complicity in allowing Zlochevsky to sneak funds out of Ukraine to Cyprus in the Spring of 2015 that soured the West on Shokin and resulted in the US Ambassador calling out Shokin's corruption in his Sept 24, 2015 speech in Odessa, almost 3 months BEFORE Biden urged Poroshenko to fire Shokin in December 2015...
Again this is EXACTLY what Pyatt said BEFORE Biden ever threatened the loan guarantees...First off he talked about the greatest OBSTACLE to reform in Ukraine...
"That obstacle is the failure of the institution of the Prosecutor General of Ukraine to successfully fight internal corruption. Rather than supporting Ukraine’s reforms and working to root out corruption, corrupt actors within the Prosecutor General’s office are making things worse by openly and aggressively undermining reform."
Now Shokin was the PG, and it was his office. Even if you want to make the ridiculous claim that Shokin (the head of the Agency) was somehow clean and it was his deputies that were corrupt, the fact again belie that claim. Reformers in Ukraine were protesting on the streets demanding Shokin be fired, and a number of very pro-US Ministers resigned from the Govt and specifically called out Shokin's corruption as the reason...
Here is a prime example...Again from Pyatt...
"We applaud the work of the newly-established Inspector General’s office in the PGO led by David Sakvarelidze and Vitaliy Kasko."
In Feb 2016, about 2 months after Biden called for Shokin's firing, Vitaly Kasko resigned and called out Shokin's corruption on National TV. On March 28 protestors again demanded Shokin's firing, and Parliament fired him UNANIMOUSLY the next day...
Now here is why the idea that Burisma bribed Biden to fire Shokin, or even wanted Shokin fired is ridiculous...
As Ambassador Pyatt pointed out in his Sept speech the whole reason the West wanted Shokin fired was because Shokin's office had thwarted a British effort to keep Zlochevsky from illegally transporting $$ Millions out of Ukraine to Cyprus...They had deliberately sabotaged the attempt to recoup the stolen funds...
"We have learned that there have been times that the PGO not only did not support investigations into corruption, but rather undermined prosecutors working on legitimate corruption cases.
For example, in the case of former Ecology Minister Mykola Zlochevsky, the U.K. authorities had seized 23 million dollars in illicit assets that belonged to the Ukrainian people. Officials at the PGO’s office were asked by the U.K to send documents supporting the seizure. Instead they sent letters to Zlochevsky’s attorneys attesting that there was no case against him.
As a result the money was freed by the U.K. court and shortly thereafter the money was moved to Cyprus. The misconduct by the PGO officials who wrote those letters should be investigated, and those responsible for subverting the case by authorizing those letters should – at a minimum – be summarily terminated."
Now you have echoed the ridiculous claim that Shokin was "investigating Burisma", and I have clearly provided FACTUAL EVIDENCE that the entire reason the US wanted Shokin replaced was because of corruption within his office, and that the case that particularly incensed them was his office's complicity in allowing Zlochevsky to transport stolen $$ out of the country.
Now feel free to provide a single shred of evidence that anyone interested in reform in Ukraine in 2015-16 believed for one second that Shokin wasn't corrupt and was in fact "investigating Burisma". Aiding and abetting the owner of Burisma to transport stolen funds out of the country is certainly a novel way of "investigating Burisma"...
www.mediaite.com
www.businessinsider.com
www.politico.com
In addition to Cosmic's post above, here is the story about the letter from the Republican senators that I was referencing.
If this gets to actual impeachment level in the House, I'm not so sure that Sobocinski and Parnas would be allowed to testify. If I recall correctly, there were several witnesses that the Republican House members wanted to testify in Trump's first House impeachment proceedings that the Democrats vetoed (most of which were actually immaterial, but the Republicans don't believe that). I have little faith that the Republicans would be more equitable than the Democrats now that the roles have been reversed.
This is just a Hillary’s emails situation all over again. Just keep talking about it, talking about it and talking about it. But her emails!!! But the prosecutor!!! But Burisma!!!" We have state department memos that show firing Shokin was almost certainly NOT official U.S. policy and came solely from the Biden camp."
Feel free to link those, as well as any source from 2015-16 discussing Shokin's "investigation" of Burisma...
If you read my response to DANC, you'll see that in his Sept 2015 speech US Ambassador Pyatt specifically lauded the appointment of Vitaly Kasko as the IG within the PGO. In Feb 2016, 2 months AFTER Biden called for Shokin's dismissal Kasko resigned and said this in a televised statement
“Today, the General Prosecutor’s office is a brake on the reform of criminal justice, a hotbed of corruption, an instrument of political pressure, one of the key obstacles to the arrival of foreign investment in Ukraine."
Check out the title of this article from Kyiv Post
UPDATES: Criticism fierce as anti-corruption prosecutor Kasko resigns, citing obstruction by Shokin - Feb. 15, 2016
In this farewell press conference, Kasko cited corruption and sabotage by General Prosecutor Viktor Shokin… - Feb. 15, 2016. By Oleg Sukhov and Alyona Zhuk
This was the 2nd pro-US Ministor to resign within 2 weeks. In response US Ambassador Pyatt called Kasko "
“a champion for change”. Pyatt tweeted...
“His resignation is a blow to #Ukraine’s reform progress ... #Ukraine deserves a clean judiciary. Will require top-to-bottom rule of law reform to address pervasive corruption + cronyism,”.
Ukrainian prosecutor quits over corruption as government teeters
A senior Ukrainian prosecutor resigned on Monday, calling the office he worked for a "hotbed of corruption", another blow to government attempts to clean up the judiciary, a crucial step to unlock more Western aid.
Now tell me again that the US (and UK,IMF,Ukrainian reformers) all didn't want Shokin fired...
As for reformers within Ukraine...
Protesters Demand Dismissal Of Ukrainian Prosecutor
Dozens of activists gathered in central Kyiv have demanded an immediate dismissal of Ukraine's embattled Prosecutor-General Viktor Shokin.
You made ignorant comments about my read of the situation. Show us what ya got...
You may want to "look at the timeline"... First off I can guarantee that you can't find a single contemporary (2015-16) source claiming that Shokin was "investigating" Burisma. You may find after the fact revisionists claiming that he was, but in 2015 and 2016 people were UNANIMOUS in maintaining that Shokin was NOT doing his job. And as Ambassador Pyatt pointed out in his speech on corruption within Ukraine (in Sept 2015) the fact that Shokin's office was complicit in allowing Zlochevsky to transport stolen,illegal funds to Cyprus was why the US,UK,IMF, and protestors in Ukraine ALL wanted Shokin fired...
See there are official transcripts which defy what revisionists claim. Btw, in case you're unaware (as if there's any doubt of that) the entire reason Zlochevsky was deemed a financial criminal and was forced to flee Ukraine for Cyprus, was that as Ecology Minister he was accused of taking bribes to grant gas exploration leases to Burisma and to other companies owned by his fellow oligarch buddies...
But you see that was PRIOR to the Feb 2014 Revolution when Yanukovych fled to Russia, and members of his Government (like Zlochevsky) were deposed. You see, it was part of Burisma's efforts to rehab their reputation with the West that resulted in them hiring people like Archer,Hunter B, and the former President of Poland. But the crimes Shokin was supposed to be investigating (regarding Burisma) occurred BEFORE Hunter Biden was hired and had NOTHING to do with Hunter.
So anybody claiming that Shokin was investigating Hunter is a moron and a liar. Moreover, it was the PGO's complicity in allowing Zlochevsky to sneak funds out of Ukraine to Cyprus in the Spring of 2015 that soured the West on Shokin and resulted in the US Ambassador calling out Shokin's corruption in his Sept 24, 2015 speech in Odessa, almost 3 months BEFORE Biden urged Poroshenko to fire Shokin in December 2015...
Again this is EXACTLY what Pyatt said BEFORE Biden ever threatened the loan guarantees...First off he talked about the greatest OBSTACLE to reform in Ukraine...
"That obstacle is the failure of the institution of the Prosecutor General of Ukraine to successfully fight internal corruption. Rather than supporting Ukraine’s reforms and working to root out corruption, corrupt actors within the Prosecutor General’s office are making things worse by openly and aggressively undermining reform."
Now Shokin was the PG, and it was his office. Even if you want to make the ridiculous claim that Shokin (the head of the Agency) was somehow clean and it was his deputies that were corrupt, the fact again belie that claim. Reformers in Ukraine were protesting on the streets demanding Shokin be fired, and a number of very pro-US Ministers resigned from the Govt and specifically called out Shokin's corruption as the reason...
Here is a prime example...Again from Pyatt...
"We applaud the work of the newly-established Inspector General’s office in the PGO led by David Sakvarelidze and Vitaliy Kasko."
In Feb 2016, about 2 months after Biden called for Shokin's firing, Vitaly Kasko resigned and called out Shokin's corruption on National TV. On March 28 protestors again demanded Shokin's firing, and Parliament fired him UNANIMOUSLY the next day...
Now here is why the idea that Burisma bribed Biden to fire Shokin, or even wanted Shokin fired is ridiculous...
As Ambassador Pyatt pointed out in his Sept speech the whole reason the West wanted Shokin fired was because Shokin's office had thwarted a British effort to keep Zlochevsky from illegally transporting $$ Millions out of Ukraine to Cyprus...They had deliberately sabotaged the attempt to recoup the stolen funds...
"We have learned that there have been times that the PGO not only did not support investigations into corruption, but rather undermined prosecutors working on legitimate corruption cases.
For example, in the case of former Ecology Minister Mykola Zlochevsky, the U.K. authorities had seized 23 million dollars in illicit assets that belonged to the Ukrainian people. Officials at the PGO’s office were asked by the U.K to send documents supporting the seizure. Instead they sent letters to Zlochevsky’s attorneys attesting that there was no case against him.
As a result the money was freed by the U.K. court and shortly thereafter the money was moved to Cyprus. The misconduct by the PGO officials who wrote those letters should be investigated, and those responsible for subverting the case by authorizing those letters should – at a minimum – be summarily terminated."
Now you have echoed the ridiculous claim that Shokin was "investigating Burisma", and I have clearly provided FACTUAL EVIDENCE that the entire reason the US wanted Shokin replaced was because of corruption within his office, and that the case that particularly incensed them was his office's complicity in allowing Zlochevsky to transport stolen $$ out of the country.
Now feel free to provide a single shred of evidence that anyone interested in reform in Ukraine in 2015-16 believed for one second that Shokin wasn't corrupt and was in fact "investigating Burisma". Aiding and abetting the owner of Burisma to transport stolen funds out of the country is certainly a novel way of "investigating Burisma"...
To add to what you posted here...
www.atlanticcouncil.org
It's good that you recount this, and point out the bi-partisan nature. This letter was sent about a week before Kasko resigned and accused Shokin on National TV of running a "hotbed of corruption".
"1.) If the Ukraine prosecutor’s firing involved only his alleged corruption and ineptitude, why did Burisma’s American legal team refer to those allegations as “false information?”
thehill.com
nypost.com
I think you make a good point, but I think with only a 5 vote majority and the current House composition more moderate Republicans are probably not going to vote against witnesses who essentially would provide them an out to vote against Impeachment and use that testimony as the basis.
That’s the point. It’s not an impeachment. It’s an investigation. Irs agents testified they were blocked. Maybe Biden had nothing to do with it. Maybe justice did of its own volition. Let’s find out why. I no more believe an fbi agent than irs whistleblowers. What do the latter have to gain? Again it’s not like they’re qui tam whistleblowers. They aren’t getting paid for sticking their dicks out there. Investigate and let’s see. Why wouldn’t you support their actions and want the truth? They’re bureaucrats. Stand up for emSo about this GOP boondoggle...
By now anyone with even half a brain knows the claim that Zlochevsky bribed Biden to get Shokin fired is ridiculous. For anyone who feels my posts are too long and doesn't read them the facts are that 6 months before Biden called for Shokin to be fired the UK,US and IMF were all incensed because Shokin's PGO aided and abetted Zlkochevsky (the former owner of Burisma) to illegally transport $$ 23 Million out of Ukraine to Cyprus,where he lived in exile.
And Zlochevsky was not the only oligarch who benefitted from the corruption within the PGO. Shokin didn't "investigate" any of them and his office was basically their inside man. Why in the Hell would they want him fired? So someone honest and competent could replace him and kill off the golden goose?
So the major charge the GOP making of bribery is kaput,and will be destroyed during actual testimony. I think Lev Parnas is timing his book to arrive during an impeachment attempt as well...
Giuliani Pal Lev Parnas Tells Comer He’s Willing to Testify Biden Corruption Probe Has ‘No Merit’
"The truth is that everyone, from Giuliani and the BLT Team to Devin Nunes and his colleagues, to the people at FOX News, knew that these allegations against the Bidens were false."
Now a couple of developments are going to throw doubt on other claims as well...
Just last week a high ranking FBI official testified before the House Judiciary Committee that some of the claims made by one of the "whistleblowers" (Shapely) were not true. His name is Thomas Sobocinski and he's the Special Agent in charge of the Baltimore Field office. He refuted Shapeley's claim that Weiss had told a room full of FBI agents and IRS people on Oct 7,2022 that he was not the person making decisions on whether to charge Hunter or not.
Sobocinski was at the meeting as well, and would likely be a witness in an Impeachment prosedure where the GOP is claiming Biden interferred with the investigation based on Shipley's testimony... Strange how the GOP paraded the whistleblowers to testify in front of a national tv audience, but Sobincinki testified behind closed door and none of the House GOP members even acknowledged it publicly...
FBI Agent Undercuts Claims of Political Interference in Hunter Biden Inquiry
WASHINGTON — A high-ranking FBI agent has provided testimony to the House Judiciary Committee that contradicts a key claim made by an IRS agent who said that political interference had hampered the investigation into the taxes of Hunter Biden, the president’s son, dealing a blow to House...www.yahoo.com
I'm not sure how the rules on testimony differ from Impeachment Inquiry to actual proceedings. But at some point witnesses like Sobocinski,Lev Parnas and others will have to be allowed to give their testimony, and at that point not only the "charges" but the GOP overall will face public scrutiny.
When Parnas testifies he will likely recount criminal actions he observed by both Rudy and Trump when he worked for them. Then there is the (currently unknown but still employed) FBI whistleblower who submitted a 22 page letter to Jordan's committee detailing how pro-Trump FBI superiors suppressed investigations into both Trump and Rudy and their relationship to Russian oligarchs. Jordan's people basically brushed him off, but it seems likely his story will get out if Dems are able to call witnesses.
Exclusive: A veteran FBI agent told Congress that investigations into Giuliani and other Trump allies were suppressed
The FBI agent's bombshell allegations of political bias appeared in a leaked statement made to the Senate Judiciary Committee.
And in the category of what comes around comes around...
Until the GOP takes a vote on an Impeachment Inquiry their ability to subpoena documents will be severely limited. That's because after the first Trump Impeachment, the Trump DOJ in Jan 2020 ruled that Impeachment Inquiries are INVALID unless the full House takes a vote to authorize them. This is the same sort of OLC opinion which saved Trump's bacon when Mueller decided he couldn't indict a sitting POTUS under OLC Guidelines, and consequently DOJ ,FBI and IRS would all be bound by the OLC opinion...
Which is what Trump's DOJ intended,when they passed the rule in 2020 to protect HIM...
How Donald Trump’s DOJ gave Biden a major assist in the coming impeachment probe
The department’s 2020 opinion around Trump's impeachment trial could place some serious constraints on House Republicans now.
BTC does an excellent job of breaking it down here...
So contemporary means PUBLISHED in 2015-16 during the ongoing events. Not someone providing analysis AFTER the fact..."1.) If the Ukraine prosecutor’s firing involved only his alleged corruption and ineptitude, why did Burisma’s American legal team refer to those allegations as “false information?”
2.) If the firing had nothing to do with the Burisma case, as Biden has adamantly claimed, why would Burisma’s American lawyers contact the replacement prosecutor within hours of the termination and urgently seek a meeting in Ukraine to discuss the case?"
Is that real enough time for you?
Solomon: These once-secret memos cast doubt on Joe Biden’s Ukraine story
Hundreds of pages of never-released memos and documents – many from inside the American team helping Burisma to stave off its legal troubles – conflict with Joe Biden’s nar…
Or maybe you can explain why Shokin seized the head of Burisma's assets a month before he was fired? From your old buddy Devin Archer, who claimed Joe only called into Hunter's business meeting to discuss the weather:
“He was a threat. He ended up seizing assets of [Burisma owner] Nikolai [Zlochevsky] — a house, some cars, a couple properties. And Nikolai actually never went back to Ukraine after Shokin seized all of his assets,” Archer told former Fox News host Tucker Carlson.
Shokin’s office won a court order to seize Zlochevsky’s property on Feb. 2, 2016, the Kyiv Post reported at the time. Shokin was fired on March 29, purportedly due to his own corruption.
Ukraine prosecutor whose ouster Biden pushed was ‘threat,’ says Devon Archer
Ukrainian prosecutor-general Viktor Shokin, who was fired months after then-Vice President Joe Biden threatened to pull $1 billion in US aid, was “a threat” to natural gas company Buris…
www.rferl.org
So contemporary means PUBLISHED in 2015-16 during the ongoing events. Not someone providing analysis AFTER the fact...
What exactly is the Burisma case? What do you think Shokin was "investigating" that involved Hunter?
Both Shokin and Zlochevsky (along with Poroshenko) were all buddies. Shokin and Proshenko were classmates.and that's one of the reasons Poroshenko resisted the calls to fire Shokin, which began as early as Oct 2015. Biden wasn't even the first person to call for Shokin to be fired. Biden threatened the loan guarantees in Dec 2015, but this protest was on Halloween...
Protesters drive to Poroshenko's mansion to demand dismissal of Shokin - Oct. 31, 2015
About 200 members of the AutoMaidan car protest group on Oct. 31 went to the president’s private mansion… - Oct. 31, 2015. By Johannes Wamberg Andersen
This is from that article, again 2 months BEFORE Biden pressed for Shokin to be fired...
"AutoMaidan activists accuse Shokin of sabotaging all high-profile investigations, including corruption cases against incumbent and former top officials and the investigation into the murder of over 100 protesters during the EuroMaidan Revolution."
So can we at least dispense with the claim that Biden started the remove Shokin movement?
Here's video of people (not Biden) demanding Shokin's dismissal...
Again BEFORE Biden threatened the loan guarantees...
As to why Shokin seized Zlochevsky's assets in Feb 2016, I'd say he was trying to salvage his position. Biden's threat came in Dec 2015, but Shokin wasn't fired till March 29.
Why did it take till Feb 2016 for Shokin to carry out any actions related to Zlochevsky. Because he had no choice by that time.
Protests were increasing, the US Senate Committee on Ukraine (chaired by GOP Sen Rob Portman) sent a letter urging Poroshenko to crack down on corruption. Pro-US ministors resigned calling out Shokin's corruption and then the big one when the IMF threatened to cut off $$ 40 BILLION in loan guarantees if Poroshenko didn't crack down on corruption...
IMF warning sparks Ukraine pledge on corruption and reform
Lagarde threat to suspend $40bn aid package elicits swift response from Kievwww.ft.com
Poroshenko still refused to fire his buddy Shokin, and likely told him to start doing his job. So Shokin made his token effort and confiscated some of Zlochevsky's property in order to try and save his job. But it was too little too late, and as more people within his office quit and called out corruption the pressure to fire him ramped up
Watch the people on the above tape. They despised Shokin, months before Biden urged Poroshenko to fire him because they viewed Shokin as a representative of the KGB days. So it was basically everyone that wanted Shokin fired. It wasn't an accident that there was a huge protest in front of Poroshenko's office on March 28, the day before Shokin was finally fired.
Protesters Demand Dismissal Of Ukrainian Prosecutor
Dozens of activists gathered in central Kyiv have demanded an immediate dismissal of Ukraine's embattled Prosecutor-General Viktor Shokin.
Again if Shokin was going to crack down on Zlochevsky the time to act would have been in Spring 2015 when the Brits intercepted $$ Millions that Zlochevsky was trying to launder out of Ukraine to Cyprus. But instead of sending the files and evidence that the Brits needed to permanently confiscate the $$ to return it to Ukraine, Shokin's office refused to cooperate. Not only that, but as Pyatt pointed out in his speech people within the PGO sent letters to Zlochevsky's lawyers stating there was no case against him. So the Brits were forced to release the funds and the money proceeded to Cyprus...
That had nothing to do with either Hunter or Joe Biden. But it pissed all of the pro-reform elements in Ukraine and the West off.The US Ambassador specifically referred to that incident on his speech on corruption in Ukraine in Sept 2015. Again 3 + months BEFORE Biden threatened to cut off the loan guarantees...
And since you linked to articles from Solomon, Lev Parnas specifically called him out by name as one of the chief spreaders of propaganda and disinformation that Lev encountered during the time he worked as an investigator in Ukraine for Trump/Rudy. Again Lev was a true believer, a Ukrainian-American businessman from Florida who was a huge supporter of both Trump and DeSantis.
Lev's no lefty. He went to Ukraine under Rudy's direction in 2019 and was tasked with digging up dirt on Biden.He interviewed several people (including Shokin) and found that the whole Biden bribery claim was a farce.But when he reported that to Rudy/Trump he realized that they weren't interested in the truth. Their whole goal was to get Biden,even if they had to fabricate stuff...
He already testified in 2020 but that was to the GOP Senate inquiry,behind closed doors. If he testifies on National tv he'll blow the whole lid off of the Ukraine claims, because he talked to Shokin back in 2019. Since he spoke Ukrainian he was pretty much the interpetator,so he knows everyone Rudy talked to and everything Rudy did in his efforts to get someone to claim Biden was corrupt. He's even detailed the role Devin Nunes (remember him) played in all of the Trump/Rudy schemes...
Don’t bother. Like I said at the beginning of this thread I’m done trying to sway the ignorant or insane on this topic. But just for kicks…"1.) If the Ukraine prosecutor’s firing involved only his alleged corruption and ineptitude, why did Burisma’s American legal team refer to those allegations as “false information?”
2.) If the firing had nothing to do with the Burisma case, as Biden has adamantly claimed, why would Burisma’s American lawyers contact the replacement prosecutor within hours of the termination and urgently seek a meeting in Ukraine to discuss the case?"
Is that real enough time for you?
Solomon: These once-secret memos cast doubt on Joe Biden’s Ukraine story
Hundreds of pages of never-released memos and documents – many from inside the American team helping Burisma to stave off its legal troubles – conflict with Joe Biden’s nar…
Or maybe you can explain why Shokin seized the head of Burisma's assets a month before he was fired? From your old buddy Devin Archer, who claimed Joe only called into Hunter's business meeting to discuss the weather:
“He was a threat. He ended up seizing assets of [Burisma owner] Nikolai [Zlochevsky] — a house, some cars, a couple properties. And Nikolai actually never went back to Ukraine after Shokin seized all of his assets,” Archer told former Fox News host Tucker Carlson.
Shokin’s office won a court order to seize Zlochevsky’s property on Feb. 2, 2016, the Kyiv Post reported at the time. Shokin was fired on March 29, purportedly due to his own corruption.
Ukraine prosecutor whose ouster Biden pushed was ‘threat,’ says Devon Archer
Ukrainian prosecutor-general Viktor Shokin, who was fired months after then-Vice President Joe Biden threatened to pull $1 billion in US aid, was “a threat” to natural gas company Buris…
Not after the Maxwell trial wherein Epstein pilot testified that both Clinton and Trump were frequent flyers on the LoLita Express- both are despicable dudes who’d follow their erection into any hole- underage or not
Tori Nuland? Deputy Sec of State? That Tori Nuland? Nah, must be another Tori Nuland....
Well if you don't read my answers, then trying to respond makes you look stupid... Esp when of course I answered your question. You just didn't read my answer...
Well if you don't read my answers, then trying to respond makes you look stupid... Esp when of course I answered your question. You just didn't read my answer...
Do you really not know that Biden urged Poroshenko to fire Shokin in Dec 2015, not in March 2016? Why did Shokin seize assets worth a few hundred thousands in Feb 2016? Wouldn't the time to seize Zlochevsky's assets been in Spring 2015 when Shokin had the oppty to assist UK officials in seizing $ 23 Million of illegal funds that belonged to the people of Ukraine...
See this is the reason everyone (US,UK,IMF, Ukrainian reformers) all wanted Shokin fired. Because when UK agents seized $23 Million that Zlochevsky was trying to transport from inside Ukraine to his new residence in Cyprus, they needed Shokin's assistance in the form of evidence and files in order to be able to justify confiscating the funds. But Shokin ignored the request, and in fact his PGO sent letters to Zlochevsky's attorneys basically clearing him and saying they had no reason to charge him...Because of that, the Brits were forced to release the funds, and the funds continued on to Zlochevsky in Cyprus.
So why in the world would Zlochevsky be bothered by losing a few cars later on in Feb, when he had already been able to safely remove $ 23 Million in illegal funds from Ukraine the previous spring? With Shokin's help, btw...
Now you don't have to believe me, the US Ambassador specifically called out this very incident in Sept 2015, in his anti-corruption speech of Sept 24, 2015. And that speech was 3 months BEFORE Biden threatened Poroshenko with the loss of the loan guarantees in December 2015.
And as I've pointed out ad nauseum, Ukrainian pro democracy, anti-corruption supporters were protesting in the streets and demanding the dismissal of Shokin BEFORE Biden joined their ranks (figuratively) and echoed their calls for Shokin to be dismissed in December 2015. And in fact Shokin was fired on March 29, 2016, the day AFTER protestors rallied outside Poroshenko's office in Parliament and demanded (once again) that Shokin be fired...
So I guess if you're under the misconception that Biden's threat came in March I could see how you might think Biden's demands were connected to Shokin seizing assets in Feb 2016. But Poroshenko didn't fire his buddy Shokin in Dec, and it took far more than just Biden's threats before Shokin was dismissed. And as I explained to you before, the whole reason Shokin actually started to do his job and make some seizures in Feb 2016, is because the IMF threatened to cut off their loan guarantees if Poroshenko didn't crack down on corruption.
From the Feb 10. 2016 edition of The Guardian
"The International Monetary Fund has warned it will halt its $40bn (£28bn) bailout programme to Ukraine unless the conflict-torn eastern European country takes immediate action to tackle corruption."
This was two months AFTER Biden threatened to cut off the US guarantees, which were significantly less than 40 Billion.IMF warns Ukraine it will halt $40bn bailout unless corruption stops
Christine Lagarde says it is hard to see the programme continuing ‘without substantial effort’ to improve governancewww.theguardian.com
It was only after the IMF threat that Shokin finally started to do his job, and made the seizures you mentioned. But it was too little too late, as several pro-US Ministers resigned from the Ministry, including Prosecutors who said they couldn't work under Shokin's corrupt office.
Also Shokin, in addition to being corrupt in economic matters, was also viewed as dragging his feet when it came down to prosecuting criminals who had killed pro-Democracy demonstrators during the Revolution. So the pressure on Poroshenko to get rid of Shokin continued to increase and came to a head on March 28, with a huge anti-Shokin rally.
The next day, March 29, Parliament unanimously voted to fire Shokin, 3 months after Biden had pressed Poroshenko to do so in Dec 2015.
Shokin was supposed to be investigating Zlochevsky, the owner of Burisma for crimes he committed when he was Ecology Minister from 2010-12. Specifically, he was charged with taking bribes from gas company interests to issue them permits over other companies. This included favorable treatment to the Company he owned (Burisma) as well as companies owned by other oligarchs who bribed him. Essentially he profited off of his role in the former Govt.
www.atlanticcouncil.org
Nice cherrypick here...
www.facebook.com
www.atlanticcouncil.org
Nice cherrypick here...
"Tori Nuland, June 2015 in a letter to Shokin.
“We have been impressed with the ambitious reform and anti-corruption agenda of your government,” Nuland writes in the June 2015 letter.
“The challenges you face are difficult, but not insurmountable. You have an historic opportunity to address the injustices of the past by vigorously investigating and prosecuting corruption cases and recovering assets stolen from the Ukrainian people. The ongoing reform of your office, law enforcement, and the judiciary will enable you to investigate and prosecute corruption and other crimes in an effective, fair, and transparent manner.”
So are you going to discuss this with competence and reality, or just deliberately chery pick and omit KEY elements?
Victoria Nuland was the ASSISTANT US Ambassador and that letter is from June 2015 when the US was cautiously optimistic that Shokin would do the job he was assigned to do- fight corruption and clean up the PGO...
But as I've pointed out (and you've ignored) the date that signalled a shift in US position was Sept 24, 2015 and an anti-corruption speech by Nuland's BOSS Ambassador Geoffrey Pyatt. He spent a great deal of his speech discussing the ongoing corruption within the PGO. Implict was the US disatisfaction with the job Shokin was doing, and the bottom line was the US felt he was either corrupt himself, or inept at being able to root it out in his OWN department. The US was no longer cautiously optimistic regarding Shokin, and no longer felt he was the right man for the job.
U.S. Embassy Kyiv Ukraine
Remarks by US Ambassador Geoffrey Pyatt at the Odesa Financial Forum on September 24, 2015 Good morning. Thank you, Andy, for your kind introduction. It is my pleasure to be here at the Odesa...
The US wanted Shokin to elevate Kasko, who they regarded as a true reformer. Incidentally, one of the eventual nails in Shokins coffin (March 29,2016) was the mid- Feb 2016 resignation of Kasko, where he went on National TV and specifically called out Shokin's corruption and ineptness.
Meanwhile Ukrainians were increasingly unhappy with Shokin's lack of willingness to both fight corrruption, as well as any effort on his part to bring pro-Russian elements who had murdered Ukrainian revolutionaries during the Maidan Revolution to justice.
Pyatt's speech was Sept 24, and on Halloween/Nov 1 reformers in Ukraine took to the streets to demand Shokin's firing.
Biden didn't call for Poroshenko to fire Shokin until 2 Months LATER. And Biden was echoing calls being made among other elements in the western alliance. For example days after that protest, the Atlantic Council called for Poroshenko to fire Shokin.
Why Poroshenko’s Support for Shokin Is Dangerous
On October 31, protesters parked ninety-three cars outside the private residence of Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko to demand that he fire Prosecutor
So the US ambassador gives a speech in Sept 2015, which primarily discusses a case involving Zlochevsky (and Shokin's lack of pursuing it) as a reason the US is disenchanted with Shokin. And carrying on that theme, 3 months later Biden urges Poroshenko to fire Shokin because the US is not happy with his anti-corruption efforts.
And Trumpian logic is that for some unfathomable reason Zlochevsky wanted Shokin (the man who angered the US by NOT pursuing efforts to confiscate money from Zlochevsky) fired? The whole reason the US wanted Shokin replaced was to get someone in the PGO who would go after Zlochevsky and other oligarchs.
And apparently you believe that Zlochevsky also wanted some other PG appointed who would actually pursue attempts to seize $$ from himself (Zlochevsky)? And to accomplish this (and hurt his own financial interests) he bribed Biden to press to replace Shokin with someone who might actually go after him (Zlochevsky)?
I don't believe you're this stupid to swallow such nonsense. But if you are I'd love to hear your rationale...
He was fired on the day Biden said he'd withhold US taxpayer money from Ukraine. Before Biden left Ukraine, according to him. A month and half after Shokin seized asset of the head of Burisma and after the head of Burisma told Hunter to start earning his money.Shokin was supposed to be investigating Zlochevsky, the owner of Burisma for crimes he committed when he was Ecology Minister from 2010-12. Specifically, he was charged with taking bribes from gas company interests to issue them permits over other companies. This included favorable treatment to the Company he owned (Burisma) as well as companies owned by other oligarchs who bribed him. Essentially he profited off of his role in the former Govt.
None of that involved Hunter Biden, as it occurred before Hunter was hired in Spring 2014. US policy was to push reforms and anti-corruption measures in Ukraine. THAT was Shokin's job, to help recoup Millions $$ that the oligarch class had pilfered under the old pro-Putin regime, which both Zlochevsky AND Shokin had been a part of.
The US had high hopes for Shokin when he was initially appointed, but due to his ties to his fellow former members of the Govt and his lack of desire to actually fight corruption refomers in Ukraine AND the Western powers became disenchanted with him and wanted him replaced.In fact in this video from PBS they interview the member of Ukraine's Parliament who pushed for Shokin to be replaced a year BEFORE Biden called for him to be replaced.
This excellent video from PBS is an EXCELLENT primer on the whole situation in Ukraine in 2015-16. I just saw it for the first time today, but strangely enough it echoes everything I've been saying in my posts. It mentions Pyatt and his Sept 24, 2015 speech specifically and that the US was upset because Shokin's office DID NOT assist the UK to recapture funds that Zlochevsky was attempting to smuggle out of Ukraine to Cyprus.
Again the US was mad because Shokin allowed Zlochevsky to transport stolen funds out of Ukraine. And 3 months after Pyatt called for rooting out corruption in the PGO and FIRING those responsible, Biden made it official and urged Poroshenko to replace Shokin with someone who was not corrupt and inept.
This is what the US Ambassador said THREE MONTHE BEFORE Joe Biden made an official demand to fire Shokin.
Pyatt talked about the main obstacle to reform...
"That obstacle is the failure of the institution of the Prosecutor General of Ukraine to successfully fight internal corruption. Rather than supporting Ukraine’s reforms and working to root out corruption, corrupt actors within the Prosecutor General’s office are making things worse by openly and aggressively undermining reform"
Pyatt then went on to discuss the failure of Shokin's office to assist in the confiscation of the bribery profits that Zlochevsky was attempting to smuggle out of Ukraine to Cyprus. He issued a not so subtle warning to Shokin to clean up the corruption within his office...
"The misconduct by the PGO officials who wrote those letters should be investigated, and those responsible for subverting the case by authorizing those letters should – at a minimum – be summarily terminated."
The letters Pyatt is referring to were letters sent by people within the PGO exonerating Zlochevsky, saying there was no case against him, and basically allowing him to unfreeze his funds and have them shipped to him in Cyprus.
So the US was angry that the PGO DID NOT assist the British attempt to confiscate Zlochevsky's stolen funds, and return them to Ukraine.
And the people of Ukraine were angry with Shokin as well. Not just because of his lack of effort to fight corruption, but also becausse he made no effort to bring pro-Russian forces that had killed Ukrainian demonstrators during the revolution to justice. From a NOVEMBER 2015 anti-Shokin rally...
An article from the Atlantic Council in Nov 2015 urging Poroshenko to sack Shokin...
Why Poroshenko’s Support for Shokin Is Dangerous
On October 31, protesters parked ninety-three cars outside the private residence of Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko to demand that he fire Prosecutor
All 3 of those events (and more) took place BEFORE Biden took the step of urging Poroshenko to fire Shokin in DECEMBER 2015. So Biden was not acting to "protect Burisma", since Shokin's lack of action vs Zlochevsky/Burisma and other oligarchs was a main reason all of these people (including the US) were angry and WANTED Shokin fired...
Still it wasn't till March 29 2016 (more than 3 months AFTER Biden's threat) that Shokin was actually fired. And a key incident was the IMF threatening in Feb 2016 to cut off $$ 40 Billion in their loan guarantees, far more tan the Million Biden mentioned in 2015.
Any moves that Shokin made in Feb 2016 were a desperate attempt to save his job, but it was far too little far too late. And it wasn't Biden that eventually got Shokin sacked, it was pressure on Poroshenko from both outside and even more importantly within Ukraine, where Shokin was despised.
Deezam, I didn’t know a VP had the power to withhold taxpayer money from any country. It’s almost as if Biden was there delivering that message on behalf of someone else. We’re gonna have to look into this more. Maybe republicans should investigate.
The facts are that Biden's threat did not cause Proshenko to fire Shokin. He basically was hoping to bluff Poroshenko, but Poroshenko and Shokin were long time comrades and Poroshenko did not want to sack his old buddy.
His actual quote was "Well SOB,he got fired". He did not say "that day", although to anyone who wasn't already familiar with the situation it would be easy to infer that.
So, Biden lied when he told the world he was withholding funds from Ukraine until Shokin was fired before he left, and well, son-of-a-bitch. He was!
Bullshit. He said if Shokin wasn't fired before he left Ukraine, Ukraine wasn't getting the money.
I’m guessing “Let’s Go Brandon” t-shirts are now legal attire
It’s unbelievable to think people voted for him. Yet the public has to wear a suit
I watched the debate. Oz was good. Couldn’t believe he lostRepublican Dave McCormick expected to announce US Senate bid in Pennsylvania | CNN Politics
Republican Dave McCormick, a former hedge fund executive and Gulf War veteran, is expected to launch a second bid for US Senate in Pennsylvania, according to two sources familiar with his plans, seeking to challenge three-term Democratic Sen. Bob Casey more than a year after losing a GOP primary...amp.cnn.com
This is the guy that should have been running, not Oz. If he doesn’t win in 2024 against Casey it might be time for the GOP to close up shop in PA.
As Trump said “Bad things happen in Philadelphia”. A real rats nest of ****ery.
PA people are pretty prideful, meatheads in my experience. Having the carpet bagger label dropped on you is hard to overcome.
