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"Hit him again"

CO. Hoosier

CO. Hoosier

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Aug 29, 2001
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In Denver, a group of high school students were marching from their school to the state capitol to protest the recent deaths at the hands of police. Four officers were assigned to escort the students safely across intersections so the students could complete their march in safety--THEIR SAFETY.

While this was going on, an out of control auto hit the officers, ran over one and dragged him several yards under the vehicle. When this happened, the students who the officers were protecting chanted, "Hit him again". The officer is critical, had 5 hours of surgery today with more tomorrow. He will never be the same.

Where do kids learn this crap? I blame the race baiters, hustlers, the "hands up don't shoot" crowd, including the St Louis Rams and the Congressional Black Caucus in the well of the House. Also the Media. Also Eric Holder. Also Barack Obama. There is no better time for our national officials to plea for calm and support of our legal institutions instead of saying the demonstrations are "understandable". This reminds me of the Palestinians who cheered the carnage in the Synagogue a few weeks ago; or the cheering of the September 11 2001 attacks.

We are watching a destruction of our mutual social compact right before our eyes.

Absolutely Disgusting!

This post was edited on 12/4 8:37 PM by CO. Hoosier
 
I agree that we're

watching the destruction of our mutual social compact . . . and I firmly believe it started with Barry Goldwater's "never compromise" version of politics that has ballooned into a refusal of the GOP-led house to agree on technical amendments legislation . . . .

What you're seeing is a the yin to the GOP yang . . . .
 
Protestors shut down an interstate today

Even those that sided with them previously are now turned off as evidence by the numerous facebook posts and tweets about the incidents.

Rather than march in a normal place, they caused suffering on innocent people hundreds of miles away.

No quicker way to lose what little external support they had for their cause.
 
Disturbing.

Reprehensible behavior. That officer(s) didn't deserve that...no one does. But while you're tossing out blame, and there is plenty to go around, toss some at a criminal justice system and police that engage in reprehensible and lethal activity against unarmed citizens. Doesn't excuse this by any means, God no, but you asked where kids learn this/where this sort of hatred/behavior comes from...I imagine repeated killings of unarmed black men/teens with no legal recourse has something to do with the disdain, ill will and mistrust of police. Were you as disgusted by the police officer waving and smiling as the man he took down for selling loosies was dying on the ground? That guy DIED.

I don't disagree on your statement of watching a destruction of our mutual social compact. Maybe we should all stop trying to cast blame on a respective side/team and try to truly understand the underlying forces at play and make some changes. Time for everyone to get real and it starts with looking in the mirror.
 
I call bull crap.

What we are harvesting is the result of prohibiton, "The War on Drugs". We are seeing the results of Judges and Proscuters and Police being way to cosey down at the courthouse. We are seeing the lack of respect for probable cause. We are seeing the result of generations of Americans being indoctranated by political factions that are looking out for themselves instead of the country. Blaming Goldwater and the Republicans shows your Yellow Dog problem.
 
More proof of a country divided

Younger Americans according to polls are more likely to blame law enforcement and take the side of so-called victims in recent incidents. This group of high school students protesting the deaths along with some yelling 'hit him again" illustrate the divide in the country.

The irony in all this is that the disrespect for law enforcement officers being held by some of our youthful Americans contributes more to the problem than it helps in solving a problem. Somehow we must build mutual respect between law enforcement and all our civilians regardless of age and skin color. I would like to believe in many of our communities, if not most, this mutual respect exists for all but a few of our officers and citizens.
 
Just like the irony of...

the disrespectful and violent/harassing behavior being exhibited by some of our police contributing more to the problem than helping in solving the problem.

The difference being America's youth is essentially defenseless against these police and at their mercy due to the inherent power differential and clear favoritism/protection for police in the criminal justice system. The onus is on police to make it right...and actions speak louder than words in that department. If police begin respecting citizens and some of our American youth better and treating them less violently and stop harassing them inappropriately, I imagine the trust will return. But it's going to take a long, long time as these behaviors generating the mistrust have been going on for a very long time.
 
There really is not much of a lesson in any of this.

Some people are idiots. Nothing much new there.

Meanwhile, the country analyzes by categorizing everyone as "black" or "white." On the Premium board, posters innocently characterize and compare only "white" players to other "white" players, and "black" players to "blacks." Most everyone sees these events as fitting their own narrative. My narrative is simple: skin color is just what me make of it culturally, and how we do that is saddening.

I regret that anyone has lost a life, or a friend or loved one, or has been harmed senselessly.

nmst
 
Speaking of "bull crap"

I'd love to hear how Judges and Prosecutors are responsible for the civil unrest we are seeing today. Typically enjoy and agree with most if what you post. This one, however, makes little sense. Maybe you've had a bad outcome in a court of law, but to suggest that blame for today's rioting, looting and cheering of the near death of an officer lies at the feet of these professionals is ridiculous.
 
It does not.


Kids are pulled over every night and harrased for minor traffic violations.Where have you been?. Have you been drinking? Juvenile DUI, .02 to .08 disqualifies them from the military without a waiver. Duug conviction no military, no pell grant. They know they are being targeted. Minorities get it X10. In Duckburg the majority of court news is for vice, DUI and Drugs. If that is all our police have to do it is sad. Swat teams to put "Otis" in jail for public intoxication. Policing is screaming reform. Judges need to get tough on probable cause. Why did four offices converge on a guy for selling tobacco?
This post was edited on 12/4 11:06 PM by Rockport Zebra
 
It is not rediculous.

Spend some time in Juvenile court. Judges must respect probable cause and most don't.
 
Of course you blame Obama and Holder

They are pretty much to blame for everything in your mind. Not sure what they could possibly have to do with this situation. It's toxic out there right now for police officers, sadly. As I'm sure there are many more good ones than bad ones. But to start with, the police have to do a better job weeding out the bad ones. One of the right wings' mantra is getting rid of bad teachers....how about getting rid of bad cops? The attitude with police officers right now reminds me of the 60's, when they were spat upon and called pigs.
 
I don't know what the students' skin color is

The students know not to say "n!gger" or "fag" or other slurs. This is worse. It isn't just dumb.
 
Damn right I blame them.

Holder represents the prosecution. He is not only inflaming the passions, he might be making a fair civil rights criminal prosecution impossible. POTUS has not been the calming influence he should. Now is the time to encourage trust in our institutions. Instead he casts suspicion on all officer-involved shootings. Obama and Holder are acting as though the justice system is only about criminal law. The US is unique in the world in the ability for a citizen to sue their government for improper conduct. This is where justice really lies.
 
What is the end game of these protests?

Congress or states cannot pass any more laws.

Many if not all big city police departments have civilian review boards.

Profiling has been on the agenda of police training for a couple of decades.

Yet we have national leadership acting as though none of this is enough. Holder claims profiling where none existed. POTUS undermines the work that has been done and the institutions and procedures we now have. To what end?

Will there be instances of racism in law enforcement? Yeah. There is a irreducible residue issue here. But we cannot progress while our national leadership act more like community organizers than responsible leaders.

There has been an incredible amount of irresponsibility in the media and our leadership.
 
Call what you want . . .

but I guarantee you that the war on drugs you're talking about, and the coziness between judges and prosecutors, is primarily GOP-driven.

Goldwater started the I'll-take-my-ball-and-go-home style of political thinking. Reagan nationalized it. It's exactly what's wrong with the country, and the protest CO's talking about is a residual result of that type of thinking, only on the other side of the political spectrum.
 
The police here . . .

in Cobb County target kids driving to SAT tests on Saturday mornings; if the kids are going 1 mph over the speed limit they get pulled over and ticketed - and delayed getting to the tests.
 
cannot people be angry?

Cannot they want to vent? That alone is a reason.

If we go back to the famed "indict a ham sandwich" comment, maybe there is the endgame. I heard on CNN a couple of their legal eagles suggest that prosecutors are on the same team as police, and thus it is hard for a prosecutor to want to prosecute police. They will in the clear and obvious cases, but in a ham sandwich case they will not.

Maybe that is the end game. To exert political power upon prosecutors to put effort into it. I can understand the Brown decision a bit more, but using the ham sandwich bar how does involuntary manslaughter not get returned? Taking into account the grabbing around the neck and combined with the lack of treatment for minutes afterward? I am not saying a jury should convict, that is wholly different.

Tell me where I am wrong, but if a prosecutor does not want an indictment they can present a case, present all the facts, but in a way that wouldn't lead to an indictment of Charles Manson. Just as he can present evidence that would have indicted Mother Theresa. Grand juries merely reflect what the prosector wants. It seems in my Googling the prosecutor is not often seen as a disinterested neutral observer before a grand jury. But in these two cases that seems to be the role they had.

Am I right, are prosecutors usually advocates and not neutral? From what you have read, which did they seem in these two cases? If you agree, isn't that something protests could attempt to sway going forward, maybe getting special prosecutors appointed?

In NY we have the case of the unarmed man shot and killed in the stairwell by an officer who heard a noise. That happened a couple weeks ago, no charges filed yet. Will they be filed, I do not know. But you want an endgame, there it is. Tell the prosecutor he is an elected official and quite a few people want him to take this very seriously. Frankly, I am surprised there have been no charges in that case. It does not have to go to a grand jury.

By the way, there is that 538 report on how often grand juries fail to indict civilians compared to how often they fail to indict police. I am not convinced that difference isn't due to prosecutors not being as vigorous.
 
Except that . . .

The report CO. linked is (predictably) something of an outlier. If you Google the officer's name, you'll mostly get reports that the students were grateful for the officers' assistance and sorrowful for their injuries. But in these reports there's no one to blame, including the driver of the car, who apparently suffered a medical emergency. These reports are not the sort of thing that would be linked by an angry old white guy.
 
Getting rid of bad public servants

Should be the goal irrespective of party or ideology (teachers, police, politicians, etc.). But there is no doubt that the current administration made a bad situation worse.
 
I think he's been a calming influence....

And I'm not sure anyone should be encouraging us to trust the legal system that has so clearly let people down lately. How did he cast suspicion on ALL officer involved shootings? I remain impartial as to the Michael Brown shooting, as there were no cameras, even though the majority of witnesses told a different story than the officer. Eric Garner...as far as I'm concerned there is no excuse. What good does having cameras do if they still won't indict?
 
I suppose people can vent and be angry

but as far as I am concerned venting and anger with no purposes except to vent and be angry is nothing but a national temper tantrum. Maybe you think temper tantrums advance the culture and preserves the social compact, but I don't. We need national mental health therapy to dispel the notion that a right not to be offended is in our bill of rights.

That ham sandwich thing. I've explained this before. In the typical grand jury, I'd say north of 90% of them, the issue is whether the target committed the crime. Once the cops have built a case to bring it to the district attorney, and the DA decides to take it to the GJ, the die is cast and the GJ is largely a perfunctory matter. And yeah, if the DA thinks they have their perp, that shows in the GJ proceeding. But these two shooting cases are not anything like that. There is no question about who the perps are. The question is whether a crime has been committed. I think the GJ members are smart enough to know this difference even if the talking heads don't. The GJ statistics and process about this question is not about ham sandwiches. It is about a legitimate open question and the answer is based upon all the facts and circumstances that the GJ weighs. I don't know if either of these DA's advocated for a result, (I know that a lot of people think they know, but they don't) but the GJ charge will say it is a GJ decision. Each of these GJ's spent a lot of time with their decision and reviewed a great deal of evidence. Moreover, GJ's have the ability to call their own witnesses and ask for specific exhibits. They are not limited to what the DA provides. Unfortunately, the reaction by people who should know better, including POTUS and the US Attorney General, have at least allowed misconceptions about GJ proceedings to fester (resulting in a national temper tantrum) if not directly having thrown the GJ under the bus. This is my point when I say POTUS and the AG should be instilling confidence in the system instead of undermining the whole process.
 
Please explain how " there is no doubt"

As I for one, have doubt. Think there might be a few million people that also have doubts.
 
Venting....if nothing else

And bonding with like minded people. IU had a peaceful protest last night with nearly a thousand participants. If nothing else, it's a cathartic experience and a way to let out frustration and discouragement. I have many minority friends who are feeling pretty despondent right about now. My Facebook page is filled with protests. As long as it is peaceful, I think it's a positive.
 
"so clearly let people down lately" THAT"S THE POINT!!!!!

GJ proceedings are secret. People believe the GJ let people down only because POTUS, the AG, and hundreds of other "leaders" have put that notion out there. They then allowed that point to fester until it became a national temper tantrum.

How in the hell does anybody know if the GJ's got it wrong? Huh? How in the hell does anybody know the system let us down? Huh? The only bodies who heard and saw EVERYTHING are the grand juries. Now the public reaction to these two decisions has nothing to do with the facts of the case. POTUS and the AG should understand this, but they have deliberately thrown the process and the grand juries under the bus. They have done irreparable harm. There is no better way to explain this than that stupid-ass "hands up, don't shoot" routine we see from the streets to the well of the United States House of Representatives. The grand jury rejected the hands-up testimony. Yet all the people say "but there was contrary evidence!" Bullshit! The contrary evidence was either an outright lie, or given by people who didn't see anything. Our system provides a means and manner to resolve these conflicts. We cannot get anywhere as a society when we allow POTUS and the AG to undermine the whole shebang.
 
What is positive about

venting about a process that is fair? That's like saying we should encourage people to vent about the Bill of Rights. A main ingredient of the venting is the notion that the GJ got it wrong. The notion that the judicial branch got it wrong comes directly from the politicians who have a political interest in these cases. We have enough problems with politicans trying to limit the independence of the judicial branch; now you say more undermining is a good thing. Yikes. Once we have lost confidence in the independent judiciary, we have lost everything. Only the independent judiciary separates us from the tyranny of the jungle.

I mentioned elsewhere that the United States is unique in the world by allowing significant law suits against the government for wrongs committed by the government. All of that is good. All of that is justice for Brown and Garner. All of that is in jeopardy as I write this.







This post was edited on 12/5 9:06 AM by CO. Hoosier
 
What good does it do to have a court system

if we are going to question every decision they make?

The people on that GJ had just a few more FACTS than we do. Do you think all of them HATE BLACK people, as Rock would lead us to think?
 
The War on Drugs

is an equal opportunity employer. I am now starting to question your judgement. To blame a national strategy that has been in place for almost 50 years on the GOP and Goldwater is unsupportable and you should know that.
 
Really?

Reagan? Really? Reagan?

You have gone Rockfish on us here Ole Buddy.

Sad...People can't see the problem, so they look for blame.
 
Don't put words in my mouth . . .

I never blamed the War on Drugs on Goldwater, I blamed the I'm gonna have my way or else approach to governance on Goldwater.

I blame the War on Drugs on the Law and Order crowd that elected Wallace in Alabama and Nixon nationally . . . which by and large is the same crowd supporting the GOP today.

Combine the my way or else style of politics with law and order policy preferences and you get the police state you're decrying today.
 
Do you have something to say?

If so, by all means say it. Otherwise, waste your county's taxpayer money on someone else's post . . . .
 
Funny.


I said what I wanted to say... I toned it down in respect for your usual level headed responses.

I figured you just got caught up in the moment,

Have a great day.
 
Yep . . .

that's exactly right.

BTW, the prosecutor here is far to the right of anybody posting on this site, and a professional acquaintance of mine - we actually get along pretty well. Not a bad guy, but a former cop who raised hell as a kid . . . and who would have no problem with being called an extension of the police department.
 
Right

You and millions have doubts because many people with vested political interests in these two cases want you to have and keep doubts. The facts were in dispute. We have an legitimate and dependable institution in place to sort out disputed facts. That institution has been called into question, not because it is a weak institution, but because people don't like, and don't understand, particular results.

I happen to think that the strongest barrier between order and chaos in the United States is our legal system. Obama and Holder want people to think THEY are that barrier. So they do what they do. If congress or the judiciary disagrees with POTUS, he throws that branch under the bus. This ain't good.
 
But when

did Goldwater ever governor?

You do know he lost don't you? Nobody ever cared about Goldwater.

Make up your mind...was it Goldwater and Reagan...or Goldwater and Nixon, or just any Republican you know how to spell their name?
 
BEE WAH HA HA

Not where I live.

There have not been any GOP prosecutors here since Lincoln left the state, and damn few GOP judges.
And the cops are FOP-driven.
Watching the judge candidates seek the FOP endorsement is high comedy.


As for Goldwater and Reagan - I disagree.
Reagan worked WITH Tip O'Neill.
Goldwater was never in a position to negotiate anything.
He was chairn of a couple of Senate committtees.
That was it.
 
But5 the really important thing I can't understand is

why trade Haywood and then sign Markakis?

Just send that money on Jason... NM is OK, but not that good.
 
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