Daily Show on Critical Race Theory

[IUCrazy2]

Your third paragraph sounds awful, scary and would be something that an extreme left would only possibly agree with. I'm a Buttigieg left and those anecdotes are over the line from my POV, especially for grade school.

I've also heard many accusations from my right wing friends about what schools are making their children do before CRT from having kindergardeners explain why it's okay that Mr Potato Head can be a man or a woman (this was of course right after the Potato Head narrative came out) to discussing sexual id (again right after the narrative came out) to the over glorifying of Obama to including Allah in the pledge of alligence to whatnot.

The best fear campaigns are always based around children (understandably so).

But again, I don't have kids in school so I'm definitely not an expert here (which is why I got miffed when it came out that it's not being taught as my only knowledge of this came from this board which said kids have to stand up and apologize for being white. Which shocked and then when it turned out wasn't happening...yeah, I was perturbed.)

I do have experience in the fear of liberal teachings of public schools in that they are cranking out like an assembly line little AOC's and Bernie's (along with the continued diversity of the country).

My gf's dad swore if he could do it again he'd never let his daughters go to Iowa, they would have gone to a conservative college because in his mind, that's when they changed and were brainwashed.

Which leads us back to public schools. How do they manage a common curriculum in different areas of the country?

Do they micro market it or go with a standard regardless if it's in Monterrey or Shoals or Harlem?

I am going to ignore the political stuff at the start because I think that is kind of going down a path we already have (conservatives overreacting) and focus on the last questions:

What is regional about learning how to read?
What is regional about math?
What is regional about science?

I think that is where the conservatives have the argument that the left side of the aisle is playing games in education. Regionality should not play into the main concepts being taught in grade school. Political POVs should not be in the school and they definitely should not come into play when teaching the topics above. The only place I can really see political views coming into play is history/social studies and even that should not really be a problem until you get into more complexity in high school. Early social studies is: these are the branches of government, this is what they do, here is how a bill goes to Congress.

You may micro market some techniques but what is actually being taught should be pretty standard, particularly at the lower grade levels. I mean, even if we accept Marvin's argument that institutional racism impacted blacks and we see those impacts and etc. Why the hell is that so important to makes sure it reaches 10 year olds? Really, how important is it that it reaches 16, 17, and 18 year olds? "Because it will cause racial awareness". Anecdotally I would say it is causing far more harm than good.

Most parents want their kids to come out of school with basic skills. I don't see how or why CRT/antiracism/etc. should he part of that equation.

 

[TommyCracker]

I am going to ignore the political stuff at the start because I think that is kind of going down a path we already have (conservatives overreacting) and focus on the last questions:

What is regional about learning how to read?
What is regional about math?
What is regional about science?

I think that is where the conservatives have the argument that the left side of the aisle is playing games in education. Regionality should not play into the main concepts being taught in grade school. Political POVs should not be in the school and they definitely should not come into play when teaching the topics above. The only place I can really see political views coming into play is history/social studies and even that should not really be a problem until you get into more complexity in high school. Early social studies is: these are the branches of government, this is what they do, here is how a bill goes to Congress.

You may micro market some techniques but what is actually being taught should be pretty standard, particularly at the lower grade levels. I mean, even if we accept Marvin's argument that institutional racism impacted blacks and we see those impacts and etc. Why the hell is that so important to makes sure it reaches 10 year olds? Really, how important is it that it reaches 16, 17, and 18 year olds? "Because it will cause racial awareness". Anecdotally I would say it is causing far more harm than good.

Most parents want their kids to come out of school with basic skills. I don't see how or why CRT/antiracism/etc. should he part of that equation.

I agree with you 200% here.

However I don't believe that is reality.

I would of course argue, like you did, keep political morals out of schools....like prayer or adding 'under God' to the pledge of alligence to the accusation of white washing of history which leads to the movement of American Exceptionalism (which sounds great on the surface but sure has a authoritarian propaganda smell to it, one that we saw was so effective in the south post civil war).

I think the most difficult things for schools is the most obvious, which is why it's so heated (cuz we're talking about our children) is the sociology of schools.

Our kids have to learn to interact and develop social skills along with the a b c's and 1 2 3's.

That's were the difficult muck is in regards to curriculum.

We all want brilliant, informed and strong socially developed kids that are prepared to take over when their time comes.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I agree with you 200% here.

However I don't believe that is reality.

I would of course argue, like you did, keep political morals out of schools....like prayer or adding 'under God' to the pledge of alligence to the accusation of white washing of history which leads to the movement of American Exceptionalism (which sounds great on the surface but sure has a authoritarian propaganda smell to it, one that we saw was so effective in the south post civil war).

I think the most difficult things for schools is the most obvious, which is why it's so heated (cuz we're talking about our children) is the sociology of schools.

Our kids have to learn to interact and develop social skills along with the a b c's and 1 2 3's.

That's were the difficult muck is in regards to curriculum.

We all want brilliant, informed and strong socially developed kids that are prepared to take over when their time comes.

Do you think one of the legitimate purposes of free public education is to build a robust and vibrant common culture?

I think at one time many thought that was legitimate, then everybody from the religious right to the socialists thought their version of common culture was the correct one and things started going down hill. Now that part of public education is a total mess. The fix must start in elementary school, but I don’t know if we are no capable of the necessary agreements to move forward.

 

[Spartans9312]

We made fairly significant changes to eligibility under Clinton. There may be room for improvement, I'd have to listen to the experts to know what. But if we move more money to Earned Income that would work for me, it would make working more profitable at lower wages. But in a way all that does is subsidizes business by letting them pay less and have the government cover.

And there are real issues with disability. A friend's daughter worked in that field, she was a lawyer representing people making disability claims. She changed out, but the way I understand it too often people get it that don't deserve it, and people with real issues get denied, both at far too high of a rate. Like previous, I don't know the solution but I'm sure there are people who really study this.

I'll open a hole new can of worms, maybe for employment purposes we need to look at year around school. People making lower wages really struggle with childcare.

1. I think we are slowly moving towards year round school.
2. In my experience with folks on Medicare disability, it's probably at least 90-10 that are not disabled.
3. In order to qualify for welfare, you should meet the qualifications I said earlier.

 

[Crayfish57]

I agree with you 200% here.

However I don't believe that is reality.

I would of course argue, like you did, keep political morals out of schools....like prayer or adding 'under God' to the pledge of alligence to the accusation of white washing of history which leads to the movement of American Exceptionalism (which sounds great on the surface but sure has a authoritarian propaganda smell to it, one that we saw was so effective in the south post civil war).

I think the most difficult things for schools is the most obvious, which is why it's so heated (cuz we're talking about our children) is the sociology of schools.

Our kids have to learn to interact and develop social skills along with the a b c's and 1 2 3's.

That's were the difficult muck is in regards to curriculum.

We all want brilliant, informed and strong socially developed kids that are prepared to take over when their time comes.

My only take from that is lets replace keeping religion out vs calling it morals. I am all for keeping religion out, but I think calling some of it morals is a bad take. I don't need a book to tell me most of the 10 commandments are a good idea regardless of ones religious beliefs and don't think you actually meant the way I read what you said about keeping morals out right?

 

[TommyCracker]

Do you think one of the legitimate purposes of free public education is to build a robust and vibrant common culture?

I think at one time many thought that was legitimate, then everybody from the religious right to the socialists thought their version of common culture was the correct one and things started going down hill. Now that part of public education is a total mess. The fix must start in elementary school, but I don’t know if we are no capable of the necessary agreements to move forward.

Agree 100%.

I'd like to believe that we could help build a better society through our educational process but damn, that's probably too much.

I did like the learn at your pace concept of the 70's (and have no idea where that's at today) that allowed for high achieving kids to move on vs the standard wait for your grade to move together (if that makes sense).

I grew up in Bedford and my dad moved to keep me and my two sisters in the school zone of the one school that was offering that program. Of course my sister was a beast and ended up her class valadictorian at BNL and went on to double major in mechanical and electrical engineering at that piss and turd colored school in Lafayette (lol).

I, yeah, I wasn't that, at all, not even close.

The school was in the lower economic part of the town and as a kid I never understood why I couldn't go to the cool school (Parkview) but had to walk through some scary parts to my school.

Well, it was the that curriculum or set up which was being tested at my grade school.

We got frog stomped at sports but I was athletically the fonz (and then got a very rude awakening in junior high when the talent level went up ten fold) but holy hell did we dominate spelling bee competitions.

Anyway, I could see a curriculum like that offering more social awareness/deeper history dives for the students who have breezed through the standard curriculum and might be ready for more complex material.

At the base, that's so tough because we all have different opinions on what makes a great society and what needs to be covered or sheltered.

So we're probably chasing a unicorn with that.

Apologies for the long winded, Tl-crack trip down memory lane.

Fyi...my grade school was/is named Stalker School. Yeah, that was cool. Lol

 

[TommyCracker]

My only take from that is lets replace keeping religion out vs calling it morals. I am all for keeping religion out, but I think calling some of it morals is a bad take. I don't need a book to tell me most of the 10 commandments are a good idea regardless of ones religious beliefs and don't think you actually meant the way I read what you said about keeping morals out right?

I was inferring that people tend to throw the moral term around when justifying a personal belief that should be taught, etc

I only bring up religion as to my understanding there was the firm separation of church and state in our public entities until an evangelical movement (50's??) used the 'Christian Moral Right' to get it into things like prayer in schools, the pledge of allegiance and our currency.

I agree not to merge the two, I just always tend to believe that any political morality play has a strong religious base, and that's probably an incorrect frame.

 

[iu-in-philly]

Again, given your second to last paragraph you still come to the conclusion of the rest of your post that nothing is going on here.

In my district there have been programs that the high school students go through to explain their "white privelege". I have seen some of the screen shots of the show and parents of the children who have seen it because their children were home the majority of last year.

If you have seen the video of the girl who was a foster child whose original homelife involved living in filth and eating cat feces when the police arrived to yank her out of that environment crying over being told she was priveleged and also being forced to talk about sexual things at a young age that were uncomfortable given her early home life...well that is my district. If you have seen the video of four women discussing that even 4th graders are experimenting with anal sex and that therefore we need to talk about sex at a younger age...my district. I would link you a video of that conversation but the school did a copyright claim on YouTube to have it pulled down because parents were losing their shit over it. There were articles on the page of the DEI head for the school district that said white women were the biggest purveyors of white supremacy and that math is racist. After the Chauvin verdict all the parents received emails that the school was going to continue to focus on "anti-racist and equity" education. Employees of the school system from the bus driver up to the administration were being encouraged to attend trainings where the top books suggested for reading were Kendi's How to be an Antiracist and Diangelo's White Fragility. On the children's side the first book was Anti Racist Baby.

It's there. And what you get from the schools is obfuscation of the type that we saw this past few weeks about CRT which is summed up well here:

View embedded media

But that is not the only issue in my school district. Around the same time they really started to push DEI/SEL (which is the umbrella they put everything under...some of it completely fine and some of it pushing the junk I mentioned above) they also changed the curriculum. And those two things have the school system spiraling. The poor curriculum is putting kids behind but students, particularly in Jr and Sr high are having to spend increasingly more time on discussing "why white people suck" (those are the words of some of the kids, so take that for what it is worth).

In my local school district, they voted to approve a curriculum that was enhanced, but explicitly avoided the kind of CRT-adjacent content many people feared. Yet it didn’t stop some local nut job righties from labeling it CRT. In the school disctrict over the county line, they are moving towards implementing a much more aggressive, CRT-centered, Kendi/Diangelo style curriculum. It didn’t stop a whorde of local lefties playing the “CRT is not extreme”,see-no-evil-hear-no-evil gambit. It’s why I find the nationalizing of these issues nauseating, as it almost invariably means one side will be correct in one area and dead wrong in the next. I think localizing these matters may better equilibrate the tension, even if it means some deep red zones move towards the Handmaidens Tale and some blue environs resemble Harrison Bergeron.

Full disclosure (I was an HR Director who was heavily involved in the D&I field, including some pretty “woke” institutions). What you reference in the story of the poor girl getting waylayed with the privelage cudgel is fairly common. It’s likely to be the ultimate death of the critical theory hysteria we’re in. Healthy human relations are HEAVILY dependent on the principal of reciprocity. The underpinnings of these Critical Theory offshoots violate those very principles of reciprocity. It’s why the data on the effectiveness of such programs is pretty negative. We’ve know for some time that when you focus on empathy (and not guilt), it produces far better results for all involved. Getting people to focus on the experiences of others along all issues (both demographic and experiential), you create connections that otherwise are hard to forge. You’d be amazed what happens when a urban, black mother who lost a son to gun violence converses with a white, rural mom that lost her son to a drug overdose. Empathy works. Guilt (with the exception of a very specific slice of the population) is an extremely poor motivator. The employees that complain most bitterly of the guilt-focused trainings are typically African Americans. The pedestalizing, and focus on purging of pent-up white guilt tends to be off-putting and doesn’t permit a free exchange of connect on an equal-basis. Much like the last Critical Theory hysteria we had in the early 90s, people will get very fed up with the division and we’ll find a new equilibrium.

 

[IUCrazy2]

I was inferring that people tend to throw the moral term around when justifying a personal belief that should be taught, etc

I only bring up religion as to my understanding there was the firm separation of church and state in our public entities until an evangelical movement (50's??) used the 'Christian Moral Right' to get it into things like prayer in schools, the pledge of allegiance and our currency.

I agree not to merge the two, I just always tend to believe that any political morality play has a strong religious base, and that's probably an incorrect frame.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. The Golden Rule. It is so simple I don't understand why this is so complex, particularly for children. The problem we have is that we want to keep placing our adult views and hang ups on the kids in school. CRT is not helping kids, antiracism is as much about letting the teachers who want to push it feel like they are activists than it is to truly help kids.

Kids see color but they don't give a crap. If you teach kids the Golden Rule, it even has applications for when we disagree. If you had someone that felt differently than you, would you want them to call you names, make fun of you, or treat you mean? No. And that is where we should be at in K-5 or 6. And really by that point you should be out of the moral teaching business. Kids know right and wrong by that point. You are mainly continuing to double down on anti-bullying types of messages around the middle school grades. And even that is just an extension of the Golden Rule.

This isn't rocket science. Most of us, irrespective of what religion we do or do not ascribe to, know what it means to be a good human. Put the carts away. Be nice to people. Allow for agreeable disagreement. I don't want my kid's school to be a debate society in class.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. The Golden Rule. It is so simple I don't understand why this is so complex, particularly for children. The problem we have is that we want to keep placing our adult views and hang ups on the kids in school. CRT is not helping kids, antiracism is as much about letting the teachers who want to push it feel like they are activists than it is to truly help kids.

Kids see color but they don't give a crap. If you teach kids the Golden Rule, it even has applications for when we disagree. If you had someone that felt differently than you, would you want them to call you names, make fun of you, or treat you mean? No. And that is where we should be at in K-5 or 6. And really by that point you should be out of the moral teaching business. Kids know right and wrong by that point. You are mainly continuing to double down on anti-bullying types of messages around the middle school grades. And even that is just an extension of the Golden Rule.

This isn't rocket science. Most of us, irrespective of what religion we do or do not ascribe to, know what it means to be a good human. Put the carts away. Be nice to people. Allow for agreeable disagreement. I don't want my kid's school to be a debate society in class.

The Golden Rule is not all it’s cracked up to be. I learned 50+ years ago that people have substantially different thresholds for taking offense. That was way before today’s hypersensitivity and hair-trigger reactions. In a large group, I think the Golden Rule is pretty useless. I think my threshold to taking offense is much higher than most.

 

[IUCrazy2]

The Golden Rule is not all it’s cracked up to be. I learned 50+ years ago that people have substantially different thresholds for taking offense. That was way before today’s hypersensitivity and hair-trigger reactions. In a large group, I think the Golden Rule is pretty useless. I think my threshold to taking offense is much higher than most.

Again though, you are coming at that from an adult perspective. We are talking about 5 to 10 or 11 year olds. Most of them get the message to not make fun of people, keep our hands to ourselves, how to ask for things, how to share, etc.

Kids don't talk about triggers, that is all grown ups.

 

[IUCrazy2]

What Happened To You?

The radicalization of the American elite against liberalism

andrewsullivan.substack.com

Just another take to add.

 

[Hoopsdoc1978]

What Happened To You?

The radicalization of the American elite against liberalism

andrewsullivan.substack.com

Just another take to add.

That’s a great read. Thanks for posting.

 

[Stuffshot]

I am going to ignore the political stuff at the start because I think that is kind of going down a path we already have (conservatives overreacting) and focus on the last questions:

What is regional about learning how to read?
What is regional about math?
What is regional about science?

I think that is where the conservatives have the argument that the left side of the aisle is playing games in education. Regionality should not play into the main concepts being taught in grade school. Political POVs should not be in the school and they definitely should not come into play when teaching the topics above. The only place I can really see political views coming into play is history/social studies and even that should not really be a problem until you get into more complexity in high school. Early social studies is: these are the branches of government, this is what they do, here is how a bill goes to Congress.

You may micro market some techniques but what is actually being taught should be pretty standard, particularly at the lower grade levels. I mean, even if we accept Marvin's argument that institutional racism impacted blacks and we see those impacts and etc. Why the hell is that so important to makes sure it reaches 10 year olds? Really, how important is it that it reaches 16, 17, and 18 year olds? "Because it will cause racial awareness". Anecdotally I would say it is causing far more harm than good.

Most parents want their kids to come out of school with basic skills. I don't see how or why CRT/antiracism/etc. should he part of that equation.

I'll add this -- because education affects us all, parents should not be the only ones to have a say. Nothing about biological procreation or adoption gives parents more expertise about education than non-parents. We are all affected by crappy education.

I still remember buying a gallon of lawnmower gas a few years ago at a small non-chain gas station. The bill was $3+. I gave the 20-something clerk four ones and he couldn't make change because he could not do the subtraction. The education system that graduated him from high school failed both of us.

 

[Spartans9312]

@TheOriginalHappyGoat - back to our discussion on “systemic racism” being the common bogeyman for everything and that it can happen without individuals actively being racist.

Well the grifter Marc Lamont Hill and a Yale professor are here to tell you that we are all racist. It seems to me at this point that CRT is 90% an economy unto itself and is simply an opportunity for people to make money

View embedded media

These people are awful humans. Wastes of oxygen.

 

[Spartans9312]

 

[IUclover]

View embedded media

Two thoughts…

The Repub plan to politicize CRT is working.

Now, ask these people what CRT means and how it is being taught at their child’s school.

 

[Spartans9312]

Ask a Teacher: My Child’s Third Grade Teacher Totally Ignores Talking About Race and Racism

Conversations about race need to happen at school now.

slate.com

 

[Spartans9312]

Opinion | The New Racism Won’t Solve the Old Racism (Published 2021)

Discrimination in the service of equality is exactly as Orwellian as it sounds.

www.nytimes.com

"The new dispensation in which racism is justified in the name of antiracism, discrimination in the service of equality, and favoritism for the sake of an even playing field, is exactly as Orwellian as it sounds."

 

[IUCrazy2]

Two thoughts…

The Repub plan to politicize CRT is working.

Now, ask these people what CRT means and how it is being taught at their child’s school.

To your first point, I can tell you in my experience in my area, that the GOP in Indiana has been reluctant to get into the fight. The GOP was not involved in starting the movement in my area, it was pissed off parents. Those pissed off parents (like me) then went to our representatives and said "How the hell did this happen on your watch and why the hell should I continue to vote for you if you cannot run the state properly?" The Governor has not been responsive, some of the state representatives have been more responsive. Believe it or not, the left is not the only ones capable of getting agitated about issues and putting pressure on their representatives to do something.

To your second point, CRT/SEL/DEI/antiracism/DiAngelo "White Fragility"/etc. is all being thrown under the label of "CRT" because they all go together. CRT is an offshoot of Frankfurt School Critical Theory but replacing the economic focuses that Frankfurt School CT focused on to race...because the economic argument has never gained much traction in the states but the racial issue is more readily available and exploitable. So the oppressors and oppressed changed from rich people over the working class to whites over minorities, blacks in particular. From that point it is argued that the system is set up to the benefit of the oppressors and to the detriment of the oppressed and all socio-political conversations should be viewed under that lens.

Kendi says that anti-racism is founded in CRT (or at least he was saying that before the heat got turned up) and that one could not understand his philosophy without an understanding of CRT. CRT is the academic theory and Kendi and DiAngelo's books and thoughts represent the application. The only remedy to past discrimination is present discrimination. That is antiracism. How does it impact my school district, already explained that above.

The only people BS-ing this topic are people saying "it is just teaching history..." Again, you know the teachers are lying given their ever evolving explanation of what is going on, we went from "we are not teaching that" to "we need to fund the ability to attack parents and others who criticize our teaching of this theory."

This whole, "they don't even know what they are fighting against" is a bull shit dodge from people who cannot defend this nonsense being taught to kids in grade school. Period.

 

[larsIU]

Graduate, get a job, don't have kids before you get married.
98% of the time this is the formula to stay out poverty.
Kids need 2 parent homes.

I agree with all of this but......

there's always a but

I have worked in extremely poor areas both urban and rural. In both areas, regardless of race, the emphasis on education was non existent for the most part. And not just school based education but think of the stuff your parents taught you about financial obligations, work ethic, responsibility, morality, etc.

So, I know you see this as the best course of action for a person to get and stay ahead of the curve. And I agree. But I think Marv and others also see it as an outcome to be achieved and that, for many American children and young people, they have not AT ALL been given any education in how to get to this outcome. I think we need to figure out the HOW. I think we all agree on the WHY.

 

[IUCrazy2]

I agree with all of this but......

there's always a but

I have worked in extremely poor areas both urban and rural. In both areas, regardless of race, the emphasis on education was non existent for the most part. And not just school based education but think of the stuff your parents taught you about financial obligations, work ethic, responsibility, morality, etc.

So, I know you see this as the best course of action for a person to get and stay ahead of the curve. And I agree. But I think Marv and others also see it as an outcome to be achieved and that, for many American children and young people, they have not AT ALL been given any education in how to get to this outcome. I think we need to figure out the HOW. I think we all agree on the WHY.

Everything he listed is the why. Seriously, take an idiot like Kendi. His parents lay his entire argument to waste. They were successful, they stayed together, they pushed him to be educated...and then he rebelled and called his parents sell outs. "They operated in a white world under white rules..." No dumbass, they operated in the real world under real rules where everyone faces obstacles (even rich and well to do people, right Uncle Mark?) and they overcame those obstacles by doing the things that Spartans mentioned. Kendi was a product of their success and instead of spreading the message that, "hey, you have more control over your life than you think you do, my family is the example and here is how" he instead chose a nihilistic view that the current system gives people like him no chance despite the fact that his parent's were firmly middle class and had the means to send him to private school as a child. But yeah, he had it so much worse than the descendants of coal miners in West Virginia....

That guy's parents are a prime example of what is needed to succeed and so is he, he is getting rich off selling a false message and despair.

 

[Spartans9312]

I agree with all of this but......

there's always a but

I have worked in extremely poor areas both urban and rural. In both areas, regardless of race, the emphasis on education was non existent for the most part. And not just school based education but think of the stuff your parents taught you about financial obligations, work ethic, responsibility, morality, etc.

So, I know you see this as the best course of action for a person to get and stay ahead of the curve. And I agree. But I think Marv and others also see it as an outcome to be achieved and that, for many American children and young people, they have not AT ALL been given any education in how to get to this outcome. I think we need to figure out the HOW. I think we all agree on the WHY.

I agree....
We should be educating our children (parents and educators) very early on that staying/getting out of poverty is possible with these 3 steps.
There will always be outliers but this formula works.

 

[larsIU]

Everything he listed is the why. Seriously, take an idiot like Kendi. His parents lay his entire argument to waste. They were successful, they stayed together, they pushed him to be educated...and then he rebelled and called his parents sell outs. "They operated in a white world under white rules..." No dumbass, they operated in the real world under real rules where everyone faces obstacles (even rich and well to do people, right Uncle Mark?) and they overcame those obstacles by doing the things that Spartans mentioned. Kendi was a product of their success and instead of spreading the message that, "hey, you have more control over your life than you think you do, my family is the example and here is how" he instead chose a nihilistic view that the current system gives people like him no chance despite the fact that his parent's were firmly middle class and had the means to send him to private school as a child. But yeah, he had it so much worse than the descendants of coal miners in West Virginia....

That guy's parents are a prime example of what is needed to succeed and so is he, he is getting rich off selling a false message and despair.

Grifters gonna grift. Can't help that.

But honestly, most (not all), children in very low income urban/rural areas don't have the education necessary to even get on the path Spartan noted. So the cycle continues. And we can talk about it till we're blue in the face and tell them they need to do it to be successful but their environment will prevent it. It just will. Social programs haven't fixed it. Religion hasn't fixed it. The criminal justice system hasn't fixed it and, as noted above, the link between poverty and a host of issues has been around since people started forming cities.

Look, I agree CRT won't fix anything but neither will doing nothing. So here we are. Maybe McM is right, UBI for all and let's see what happens.

 

[IUCrazy2]

Grifters gonna grift. Can't help that.

But honestly, most (not all), children in very low income urban/rural areas don't have the education necessary to even get on the path Spartan noted. So the cycle continues. And we can talk about it till we're blue in the face and tell them they need to do it to be successful but their environment will prevent it. It just will. Social programs haven't fixed it. Religion hasn't fixed it. The criminal justice system hasn't fixed it and, as noted above, the link between poverty and a host of issues has been around since people started forming cities.

Look, I agree CRT won't fix anything but neither will doing nothing. So here we are. Maybe McM is right, UBI for all and let's see what happens.

No, it was being fixed when all that "traditional values" stuff was not being chased out of the common culture along with blue collar middle class jobs that were exported to our enemies in some cases and cheaper neighbors in others. Then we further depressed wages at the lower economic level by letting in millions of undocumented individuals for cheap labor.

Have sex with whomever you want at as young an age as you are comfortable with. You don't need a man to be successful girl. That is the patriarchy. You do you queen. And for the boys, this is a racist system set against you and the main message we are going to sell you is that you aren't getting out unless you sell rock or got a wicked jump shot. And by the way, those queens that don't want you are bitches and hoes who are only an empty masturbation vessel for you to use and lose...along with the offspring that those interactions produce. And anyone who says "hold up, maybe this is not the best message to send" is a prude, religious fanatic, or racist...or some combination there of.

The black community was oppressed into the 60's, but they were together and they had relatively strong family lives. Given the history of their people, the counter culture movements of the late 60's and everything that has come along with it have been the most devastating to their community. Rich white people who lead those movements had a safety net to protect them from all that stupid behavior, blue collar blacks did not. And here we are. Martin Luther King's marches in suit and tie against racial oppression have been replaced by scantily clad females protesting the death of criminals by twerking on police cars. The start of getting things back on the right track involves people having self determination and self respect. I think it takes getting back to a more traditional moral code...and that is not something the governmwnt can push.

The government should push for jobs and the ability for people to enjoy the fruits of their labor, make it economically beneficial to be married. Those things should help black males (among others) which should start to improve economic conditions. Those other issues are going to be a community problem that needs the community to sort out.

 

[IUclover]

To your first point, I can tell you in my experience in my area, that the GOP in Indiana has been reluctant to get into the fight. The GOP was not involved in starting the movement in my area, it was pissed off parents. Those pissed off parents (like me) then went to our representatives and said "How the hell did this happen on your watch and why the hell should I continue to vote for you if you cannot run the state properly?" The Governor has not been responsive, some of the state representatives have been more responsive. Believe it or not, the left is not the only ones capable of getting agitated about issues and putting pressure on their representatives to do something.

To your second point, CRT/SEL/DEI/antiracism/DiAngelo "White Fragility"/etc. is all being thrown under the label of "CRT" because they all go together. CRT is an offshoot of Frankfurt School Critical Theory but replacing the economic focuses that Frankfurt School CT focused on to race...because the economic argument has never gained much traction in the states but the racial issue is more readily available and exploitable. So the oppressors and oppressed changed from rich people over the working class to whites over minorities, blacks in particular. From that point it is argued that the system is set up to the benefit of the oppressors and to the detriment of the oppressed and all socio-political conversations should be viewed under that lens.

Kendi says that anti-racism is founded in CRT (or at least he was saying that before the heat got turned up) and that one could not understand his philosophy without an understanding of CRT. CRT is the academic theory and Kendi and DiAngelo's books and thoughts represent the application. The only remedy to past discrimination is present discrimination. That is antiracism. How does it impact my school district, already explained that above.

The only people BS-ing this topic are people saying "it is just teaching history..." Again, you know the teachers are lying given their ever evolving explanation of what is going on, we went from "we are not teaching that" to "we need to fund the ability to attack parents and others who criticize our teaching of this theory."

This whole, "they don't even know what they are fighting against" is a bull shit dodge from people who cannot defend this nonsense being taught to kids in grade school. Period.

Two more thoughts (don’t have much time)…

When did the “pissed off parents” become pissed about CRT and when did they go to your reps? Like three years ago or three months ago?

The teachers I speak to, including my best friend, agree with my statement. Most pissed off parents have no Idea what CRT is nor can they identify where or if it is being taught is the classroom.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Given the history of their people, the counter culture movements of the late 60's and everything that has come along with it have been the most devastating to their community.

It's actually the War on Drugs. We lock Blacks up by the bushel, then can't figure out why there are issues. First, a large number of children lack a dad because he is in prison for drug-related crimes. Second, there is a huge disparity of women to men in the cities because so many men are in prison. In a community of 100 women and 80 men, the women just have to have lower standards or accept they will never marry/have children.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/02/26/america-has-locked-up-so-many-black-people-it-has-warped-our-sense-of-reality/

That WaPo article links a study showing employers are more likely to give White felons a second chance over Black felons.

https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/pager/files/annals_sequencingdisadvantage.pdf

And from https://www.sentencingproject.org/p...racial-and-ethnic-disparity-in-state-prisons/:

Harsh drug laws are clearly an important factor in the persistent racial and ethnic disparities observed in state prisons. For drug crimes disparities are especially severe, due largely to the fact that blacks are nearly four times as likely as whites to be arrested for drug offenses and 2.5 times as likely to be arrested for drug possession.29) This is despite the evidence that whites and blacks use drugs at roughly the same rate. From 1995 to 2005, African Americans comprised approximately 13 percent of drug users but 36% of drug arrests and 46% of those convicted for drug offenses.30)​

​

Now to avoid the argument, that can be economic issues and not race. It could be those millionaire stockbrokers are favored in courts and any poor person is screwed. But that doesn't change the impact on poor areas of inner cities.

 

[IUCrazy2]

Two more thoughts (don’t have much time)…

When did the “pissed off parents” become pissed about CRT and when did they go to your reps? Like three years ago or three months ago?

The teachers I speak to, including my best friend, agree with my statement. Most pissed off parents have no Idea what CRT is nor can they identify where or if it is being taught is the classroom.

As mentioned before, those of us who have children in school spent the better part of last year in their virtual classroom with them because their virtual classroom occupied the same physical space as our virtual workspace.

And again, I have explained that CRT is being used as a catch-all for all the other things I mentioned and also explained why that is the case. "We aren't teaching CRT..." No, but you are singling out white students in class and telling them to address their privelege. You are doing United where the PowerPoint slides talk about white privelege and white fragility. You are setting aside an entire hour every week to talk about DEI/SEL issues (which given the emails that we parents receive will continue to focus on an "anti-racist education" in the wake of the Floyd trial...anti-racism of course having a specific definition in this discussion). And oh yeah, you are doing that when the academic rating of the school has fallen since the introduction of both this focus and the focus on a failed teaching philosophy first developed by Lucy Calkins.

Not all teachers, but some of them need to realize that many parents are A)just as educated (if not more) as them and B)are very aware of what is going on. Your teacher friends are protecting their turf.

 

[stollcpa]

Has anyone said those expressions are not important?

I would think people are capable of learning both the good and bad of history instead of some whitewashed version where we don't mention anything untoward of white people.

I guess you didn’t get the same history I did in Hillbilly Country. I certainly learned about white slave owners, Selma, MLK and all the other issues of the period.

I don’t need to learn I am permanently a racist because I am white.

 

[HooDatGuy]

There is no question that Slavery, Jim Crow, and the Civil Right's movement are taught in every school in America. If the teacher is good they will frame those discussions against the backdrop of our founding documents and the unalienable/ human rights outlined therein. From there, even the dumbest student in class doesn't need much help understanding the disconnect between the founding principles and those acts of evil, but the teacher can guide them along if necessary.

When you get to the legacy of slavery in today's world. That is a topic that can't be taught or understood well by most students or teachers and is actually still being debated. Needless to say it should be left alone in schools. That's not history, it's projection of your personal opinion.

 

[mcmurtry66]

It's actually the War on Drugs. We lock Blacks up by the bushel, then can't figure out why there are issues. First, a large number of children lack a dad because he is in prison for drug-related crimes. Second, there is a huge disparity of women to men in the cities because so many men are in prison. In a community of 100 women and 80 men, the women just have to have lower standards or accept they will never marry/have children.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/02/26/america-has-locked-up-so-many-black-people-it-has-warped-our-sense-of-reality/

That WaPo article links a study showing employers are more likely to give White felons a second chance over Black felons.

https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/pager/files/annals_sequencingdisadvantage.pdf

And from https://www.sentencingproject.org/p...racial-and-ethnic-disparity-in-state-prisons/:

Harsh drug laws are clearly an important factor in the persistent racial and ethnic disparities observed in state prisons. For drug crimes disparities are especially severe, due largely to the fact that blacks are nearly four times as likely as whites to be arrested for drug offenses and 2.5 times as likely to be arrested for drug possession.29) This is despite the evidence that whites and blacks use drugs at roughly the same rate. From 1995 to 2005, African Americans comprised approximately 13 percent of drug users but 36% of drug arrests and 46% of those convicted for drug offenses.30)​

​

Now to avoid the argument, that can be economic issues and not race. It could be those millionaire stockbrokers are favored in courts and any poor person is screwed. But that doesn't change the impact on poor areas of inner cities.

Poverty is the fuel for crime.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Poverty is the fuel for crime.

That is true. But for some reason we punish people in poverty more harshly. And when they get out, they find second chances more scarce.

The officer that was involved in arresting Sandra Bland had written 1600 minor traffic tickets in one year. Let's leave race out of it, anyone want to guess if he was targeting BMWs and Mercs? Assuming 52 weeks, 5 days per week, that is 61 stops per day. Those $100 fines mean a whole lot more to a family making $25,000 than $250,000.

And as crimes get worse. I see an article that in Idaho public defender's get 4 hours for a felony case. That seems pretty low, what sort of defense can that provide.

 

[mcmurtry66]

That is true. But for some reason we punish people in poverty more harshly. And when they get out, they find second chances more scarce.

The officer that was involved in arresting Sandra Bland had written 1600 minor traffic tickets in one year. Let's leave race out of it, anyone want to guess if he was targeting BMWs and Mercs? Assuming 52 weeks, 5 days per week, that is 61 stops per day. Those $100 fines mean a whole lot more to a family making $25,000 than $250,000.

And as crimes get worse. I see an article that in Idaho public defender's get 4 hours for a felony case. That seems pretty low, what sort of defense can that provide.

i don't dispute anything you write. what i don't have is any answers. those bmws and mercs probably don't have tinted glass, brake lights out, or expired tags. traffic laws matter for innumerable reasons. then they don't have money to pay, get a fta fine, warrant, blah blah blah the cycle gets worse. again i don't know the answer. as for crime for sure re public defenders. for serious offenses money matters re the defense you can mount

 

[Marvin the Martian]

i don't dispute anything you write. what i don't have is any answers. those bmws and mercs probably don't have tinted glass, brake lights out, or expired tags. traffic laws matter for innumerable reasons. then they don't have money to pay, get a fta fine, warrant, blah blah blah the cycle gets worse. again i don't know the answer. as for crime for sure re public defenders. for serious offenses money matters re the defense you can mount

Look at Bland, he drove up rapidly behind her. She thought maybe he was on a run. Do you think he did that to Beamers.

I am not sure we should ticket every brake light. Those can go out on anyone.

 

[larsIU]

No, it was being fixed when all that "traditional values" stuff was not being chased out of the common culture along with blue collar middle class jobs that were exported to our enemies in some cases and cheaper neighbors in others. Then we further depressed wages at the lower economic level by letting in millions of undocumented individuals for cheap labor.

Have sex with whomever you want at as young an age as you are comfortable with. You don't need a man to be successful girl. That is the patriarchy. You do you queen. And for the boys, this is a racist system set against you and the main message we are going to sell you is that you aren't getting out unless you sell rock or got a wicked jump shot. And by the way, those queens that don't want you are bitches and hoes who are only an empty masturbation vessel for you to use and lose...along with the offspring that those interactions produce. And anyone who says "hold up, maybe this is not the best message to send" is a prude, religious fanatic, or racist...or some combination there of.

The black community was oppressed into the 60's, but they were together and they had relatively strong family lives. Given the history of their people, the counter culture movements of the late 60's and everything that has come along with it have been the most devastating to their community. Rich white people who lead those movements had a safety net to protect them from all that stupid behavior, blue collar blacks did not. And here we are. Martin Luther King's marches in suit and tie against racial oppression have been replaced by scantily clad females protesting the death of criminals by twerking on police cars. The start of getting things back on the right track involves people having self determination and self respect. I think it takes getting back to a more traditional moral code...and that is not something the governmwnt can push.

The government should push for jobs and the ability for people to enjoy the fruits of their labor, make it economically beneficial to be married. Those things should help black males (among others) which should start to improve economic conditions. Those other issues are going to be a community problem that needs the community to sort out.

There's a lot to unpack here and I regrettably don't have the time right now. I agree with Marv though that the Drug War has been devastating to poor communities (black and now white as well with the rise of meth and oxy, etc). We've treated drug addiction/use as a criminal matter for so long when it should have always been approached as a dependency/medical/psychological issue. Sure, there are people who criminally deal in drugs through violence, coercion, prostitution and they should be dealt with accordingly. But low level users and dealers are, more often than not, feeding their own addiction. It shouldn't be punished the way it is.

Working on the east side of Indy I used to be able to tell immediately whether somebody owned their home or rented but the condition of the front yard. Dog in the front yard? Renter. Weed growing up? Renter. Lights out on the front porch? Renter. Used to be as many owners as renters (we're talking Washington to 10th, State to Emerson back in the early 2000's). Not so much anymore. So I agree with the idea of personal responsibility and self respect are declining. I've seen it as well is the more rural locales around even Hamilton Co with more and more unkempt trailers (no offense to any trailer denizens but these aren't in parks/lots just posted up on a piece of land) and houses falling apart.

I wonder if those areas both urban and rural are in a nose dive so steep we've passed the point where we can pull back on the yoke. I think they're going to crash regardless of whatever social assistance is given. Feels like we're wandering into another Depression (which probably won't happen economically but in other similar ways) with the increase in wealth inequality and the separation of social classes in our society. Little league is dead, replaced by high cost travel baseball. Boys and Girls Club basketball. Dead after 4th grade with the rise of pay to play. Same with soccer and anything else sports related. We've lost that bit of community.

See I've already wandered off. Back to work.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

Two more thoughts (don’t have much time)…

When did the “pissed off parents” become pissed about CRT and when did they go to your reps? Like three years ago or three months ago?

The teachers I speak to, including my best friend, agree with my statement. Most pissed off parents have no Idea what CRT is nor can they identify where or if it is being taught is the classroom.

I think most people saying that "the people pissed about CRT have no idea what CRT is" know less about what CRT is than the people they are critiquing.

Have you read any of Ibram Kendi's books? White Fragility by Robin DiAngelo? Any of the academic CRT articles? Cynical Theories by Pluckrose and Lindsay? Farber and Sherry's book on CRT examining the CRT academic literature from the mid-90's?

Have you read and can you let us know why you think Richard Posner is wrong in this 25-year-old, but spot-on, critique of CRT which can be equally applied to its current progeny, antiracism?

Wayback Machine

web.archive.org

Not all "pissed off parents" have read the above, but I know a lot who have. I have yet to meet someone from the "it's only history" or "its just an academic theory" or "this is all just a ruse from Fox News and the Republicans" (at this point, I think we have to call them "gaslighters," even though I hate that term) camps who have read any of them.

 

[IUCrazy2]

There's a lot to unpack here and I regrettably don't have the time right now. I agree with Marv though that the Drug War has been devastating to poor communities (black and now white as well with the rise of meth and oxy, etc). We've treated drug addiction/use as a criminal matter for so long when it should have always been approached as a dependency/medical/psychological issue. Sure, there are people who criminally deal in drugs through violence, coercion, prostitution and they should be dealt with accordingly. But low level users and dealers are, more often than not, feeding their own addiction. It shouldn't be punished the way it is.

Working on the east side of Indy I used to be able to tell immediately whether somebody owned their home or rented but the condition of the front yard. Dog in the front yard? Renter. Weed growing up? Renter. Lights out on the front porch? Renter. Used to be as many owners as renters (we're talking Washington to 10th, State to Emerson back in the early 2000's). Not so much anymore. So I agree with the idea of personal responsibility and self respect are declining. I've seen it as well is the more rural locales around even Hamilton Co with more and more unkempt trailers (no offense to any trailer denizens but these aren't in parks/lots just posted up on a piece of land) and houses falling apart.

I wonder if those areas both urban and rural are in a nose dive so steep we've passed the point where we can pull back on the yoke. I think they're going to crash regardless of whatever social assistance is given. Feels like we're wandering into another Depression (which probably won't happen economically but in other similar ways) with the increase in wealth inequality and the separation of social classes in our society. Little league is dead, replaced by high cost travel baseball. Boys and Girls Club basketball. Dead after 4th grade with the rise of pay to play. Same with soccer and anything else sports related. We've lost that bit of community.

See I've already wandered off. Back to work.

No, you are on to something. I think we are tangentially making similar arguments. Good post.

 

[IUclover]

I think most people saying that "the people pissed about CRT have no idea what CRT is" know less about what CRT is than the people they are critiquing.

Have you read any of Ibram Kendi's books? White Fragility by Robin DiAngelo? Any of the academic CRT articles? Cynical Theories by Pluckrose and Lindsay? Farber and Sherry's book on CRT examining the CRT academic literature from the mid-90's?

Have you read and can you let us know why you think Richard Posner is wrong in this 25-year-old, but spot-on, critique of CRT which can be equally applied to its current progeny, antiracism?

Wayback Machine

web.archive.org

Not all "pissed off parents" have read the above, but I know a lot who have. I have yet to meet someone from the "it's only history" or "its just an academic theory" or "this is all just a ruse from Fox News and the Republicans" (at this point, I think we have to call them "gaslighters," even though I hate that term) camps who have read any of them.

Good read here. Likely already posted.

Redirect Notice

www.google.com

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

Good read here. Likely already posted.

Redirect Notice

www.google.com

We discussed this about a month ago. Rufo has been very transparent about what he is doing and why he is doing it. Here's a podcast interview of him (I believe the podcaster brings up the article you linked a few times):

Podcast #157: Christopher Rufo’s Whirlwind Campaign Against Critical Race Theory

Free Thought Lives

quillette.com

I'll assume that you have not read any of the texts I listed prior.

 

[Spartans9312]

It's a problem when people arguing against these laws keep distorting what they say.