Oh i’m not taking anything away from Wilson. He won. And yes, he recruited every class from 12-17 and even part of the 11 class. My point is his recruiting tailed off and this is the least talented roster they’ve had. Allen inherited a roster that wasn’t as good as prior rosters. I am still yet to hear an argument as to how this team was somehow more talented than past teams. They aren’t. Wilson 100% won the games he won, and helped us get to bowls. I like Wilson. But we have to be real about the roster that Allen inhereted. Is Hoff better than Replogle? Can you honestly say our d ends today are better than what we had in the past with guys like Richardson, and Mangeri and Shaw? Is Andre brown really better than some guys we had in the past like Antonio Marshall or Bennett. Is Gest, Morgan and Brookins really more talented than Coleman, Houston and Roberts? Wilson found some under the radar guys early on, and the classes kept getting better... until 15’. Although the classes were rated decently, you can’t honestly say these guys have performed or have the ability that past teams have. Wilson recruited ALL of these guys, but there’s a vast difference between the first four classes he recruited and these last three classes. The bulk of the team is made up of the last 3 classes. The most critical position is offensive line, and I’ll bluntly say that this offensive line might be worse than the 11’ Oline. I’d easily take guys like Ralson Evans, Benard Taylor, or Eckert over what we’ve been putting out there all season. Those guys rarely gave up a sack and weren’t even everyday starters. Those were backups. Are these guys that we put out there really more talented? No. Then when you mix in the starters that were on prior offensive lines, and the fact that we went 4 deep at tight end and they could all block, it’s hard to see where how this offense was more talented than past offenses. The only position group that you can say is more talented is at wide receiver and two starters got hurt... Hale and Westbrook. So i’m Just confused at how this is somehow a great roster, and how it was a forgone conclusion that they’d go bowling with this offensive line.
Allen's Buyout / Coaching Hot Board
- Thread starter fpeaugh
- Start date
I've heard "inside" info that people think Caleb Jones is a future NFL player. He certainly has size and was RS, believe because they want him to slim down some from his what 370? Imagine a somewhat mobile 6'9 340 tackle? Think of Hale/Westbrook/Whop/Timian/Mack rotation next year (plus perhaps a stud FR who could crack the line up.)
He started 1-11 in year one. It's still a new staff/coaching change and they played literally toughest schedule in the country. I'm first to acknowledge should have or certainly could have won both MI, MI State & also MD games. But this IU team wasn't "expected" to go 8-4!
Allen deserves an ability to recruit a few classes, have 2-3 seasons under his belt before a serious review of his performance with any real context.
He started 1-11 in year one. It's still a new staff/coaching change and they played literally toughest schedule in the country. I'm first to acknowledge should have or certainly could have won both MI, MI State & also MD games. But this IU team wasn't "expected" to go 8-4!
Allen deserves an ability to recruit a few classes, have 2-3 seasons under his belt before a serious review of his performance with any real context.
I've heard that one of the reasons the recruiting classes began to fade in quality is that other B1G coaches began using negative recruiting against CKW (i.e., rumors about his treatment of players and their injuries). Have you heard that?
disagree: the serious review of his performance has already begun, and any success he might have 2-3 years down the road would need to be initiated now, by holding together the recruiting class as much as possible and by overhauling the offense (whether that involves replacing assistants or just changing schemes)
The WR injuries were incredible bad luck. I love our young guys.
But the lines make us or break us.
I thought Gooch and Sykes would have been a nice tandem. Losing Sykes hurt. McCray - to me - was good, but never reached his full potential. Hoff gave us all he had, but he was almost always overmatched. The other guys still need to step up.
Your point about OL lost is huge, but I’ll say I think this OL can get to be really good. Injuries kept them from having a stable group, but they showed potential - but no way matched the loss of Feeney, Bailey, Rogers and Camiel.
I haven’t heard that. I honestly don’t know which tactics coaches were using. While I was at IU everything was fairly in house too. I doubt players were leaking info to rival Big Ten coaches. I did see a recruit in an article post that he was decomitting and looking elsewhere after the Antonio Allen arrest though. There were a few arrests, so I know that some recruits didn’t feel comfortable with that, but the injury/player treatment stuff was fairly in house until the story broke after the 16’ season.
What goes underrated are the losses of Friend, Cooper, Fuchs and Corsaro. It didn’t show up on the stat sheet, but they made or broke the outside run game that was extremely effective, and they created mismatches. So not only did we lose Reed, Spriggs, Feeney, Camiel, Rogers and Bailey in a two year span. But we lost 4 tight ends who were basically an additional blocker in a two year span. I love what Ian Thomas did in the passing game, but the TE losses were huge. CKW always emphasized TE blocking and praised those guys. I always respected their blocking, and it showed up this year that you have to have TE blocking as well, and we are still developing that position.
Oh, I also 100% agree with your point that the Oline can be good. Wes Martin showed flashes towards the end of a guy who can be all Big Ten next year. He’s already the strongest guy on the roster, but his maturity and football IQ really picked up as the season went on. Knight and Cronk will hopefully stay healthy and develop because they have frames to be great players. The offensive line definitely has potential. As a side note, I always thought that Knight was a better blocking tight end. That’s when he had his best season, and ended up making freshman all American. But he should definitely be able to develop into a better Tackle. I know that Knight, Cronk and Martin SHOULD be much improved next year.
I didn't consider it a great roster by any stretch, only that the cupboard wasn't left bare for Allen. And I believe the issues on offense were exacerbated by an offensive staff comprised of three cast offs, a graduate assistant, and Mike Hart. Not exactly an all star line up to replace what was apretty good O staff under (and including) Wilson. I think that had a big impact on the season.
Beat UVA, CSU, GSU, Illinois, Rutgers, Purdue gets you to six then win one or two against OSU, Penn St, UM, MSU, Maryland, or Wiscy. We had the roster and experience to do it. We never got better from the beginning to the end of the season.
Losing is probably your DNA. I take it you are a roll-over-and-take it kind of guy. Other programs have gotten there but IU has to stay committed to it. It's kind of like basketball: you think things are good and you go on cruise control and suddenly you're a lower tier Big Ten program. The university needs to keep pouring money into both programs.
10 years? I'm not giving anyone 10 years. I'll give him 3 since he's proven himself as a HC and was selected after a national search. Archie and Allen couldn't have more opposite backgrounds.
Barring a total meltdown next year Allen will get at least 3 years. If it doesn't work out he and most likely Glass will gone. No amount of wailing and gnashing of teeth is going to bring that about any sooner.
....Maybe someone who likes to throw to the tight end more than once in a decade ?
No he wouldn't. His star power would attract top recruits and he'd be competitive in the B1G East within a few years. But it's a moot point because he'd never come here.
So, when you say "give him 3 years" what is your criteria? Win the Big Ten? The conference tourney? Deep run in the NCAAs? And when he doesn't do that, what will be your rationale? We chose a coach with HC experience and he didn't get it done. So, then your theory that somebody with HC experience is the key to guaranteed success will be out the window.
They have poured money in the football program but that won't change that we can't recruit 4 and 5 star players to compete with OSU and the other top teams. I think we should be able to compete with teams like Iowa and NW. Even UW wins without top recruits so that is why we need to build our program like UW and Iowa.
I agree with you .... I just think the University should provide the funds for the best coaches, assistants, etc that is available and attainable or decided is needed by the football program. I think that would help us dig out of the hole we dug for ourselves in the program. For many many many years the football program made profit for the University and it is time to give back. It is also a monumental undertaking without some assistance until it is on its feet.
From an ROI perspective, I’d think it would be money well spent and could be carried as a loan with interest.... I don’t know.... it is time
IU went cheap and proved they are not serious about football by hiring Allen without even conducting a search. The fans of the IU football program deserved better.
IU just went to back to back bowls. So clearly the DNA of a team is what they
No, they players simply didn’t perform. Coaching could ALWAYS be better, but when I watch the games, I see an adequate game plan, and a team that simply didn’t execute. Maryland was the prime example with some of the breakdowns in that game.
CKW also said that the O-line and D-line determines who wins. He said we could throw for 400 yards and no picks and lose. Said if we ran for 300 yards, we’d never lose the game. That’s why we went bowling. We had adequate lines. This team ran THE SAME running plays that CKW ran, because they’re fairly basic plays. You got inside zone, power, and a variation of outside zone. The past lines were just better, and Feeney May have been the best lineman in program history arguably. So replacing him will take a while. But heck, they ran the same plays CKW would have run.
So I really don’t get this attitude that they “went cheap and it ruined the whole program.” I think that a lot of people on the board are overestimating how bad the lines on both side were. Strictly speaking football, it’s hard to rationalize that most coaches would be successful with the talent level of these lines. I think that they’re hard working kids who can and should play better. This offseason will test whether or not this Coaching staff should stay or go. Recruiting will also test whether or not this staff should stay or go. The 18’ and 19’ classes have to be legitimate, with some legitimate contributors.
It is easy for fans to say this but who do you really think we had a realistic chance at. Would Brohm have chosen us over PU if we offered maybe or maybe not. The W. Michigan coach looks like a different person who may or may not do well at Minnesota. So who did you guys think we could have gotten.
As did Iowa with Ferentz. As did Northwestern with Fitzgerald. As did Wisconsin with Bielema.
You guys do know that IU isn't in some exclusive group of "dumb dumbs" that just promote assistants, right? I cannot believe people think this is completely exclusive to IU. Really?
Barry Alvarez who turned UW from laughing stock to a power was never a HC until UW.
"I don't know how you thought it could be better than 7-5".......Well, as for me, I pretty much lay that on Coach Allen. You see, I saw this team in spring practice, and didn't see in that limited exposure any evidence that Lagow had improved 1%....but we were told how much better he was as a leader, how much his decision making had improved, blah, blah, blah. And to beat out Ramsey.......we were told how much Ramsey had impressed....so if Lagow is good enough to win the position, he MUST be improved, right? The offensive and defensive lines didn't show a lot either. But when the head coach talks constantly about a breakthrough, you think he is seeing things we aren't, that the team has special chemistry et al.
So, what's the minimum win season for a breakthrough year? In this instance, I would say 8-4. Beat every one you should beat, plus beat OSU or UM or MSU or Wisconsin. So then MD beats Texas, and now maybe 7-5 looks good.....then they lose their 2 good QBs, so we're back to 8-4.
So......the head coach over-promised and under-delivered. And I think the coach has lost some credibility in the process. Now the interesting ?s to me are what made him so optimistic about this particular team, and what does he REALLY think about the performance of the coaching staff? For example, does he really regret the Debord hiring? I sure do.
I want to be in a position to win national titles and make consistent deep runs in the tournament. First and foremost that means he's recruiting at a consistent high level and we have teams that compete against anyone. Look at Duke, UK, Kansas, UNC, etc that have elite teams year in and year out.
In no way am I so attached to Archie that I'll make excuses for him. Or any coach for that matter. I'm part of the 1% on this board that wanted Crean replaced after year 3. And I was told the exact same things about him that I'm now being told about Allen. The exact same.
Yep. But IU’s facilities aren’t even top tier anymore in basketball. No players’ lounge, outdated lockerrooms-we have fallen behind in our flagship sport. Hopefully the latest round of upgrades will put us on more even footing with some of the top programs.
Glass gives coaches far too long and lets them run their programs into the ground. We could have had Brad freakin’ Stevens if Crean had been let go in 2011. But I doubt IU would have ponied up the dough to get him.
Well, you better get your memo paper ready to write Fred a long letter because we aren't doing any of the above in basketball that soon. Hell, we better figure out how to beat Wisconsin or finish in the top 3 of the conference first.
As for Allen, you can have at it after 3 years. Give him that much at least. You were Wilson's big fanboy through 6 seasons and that guy had to have Allen in 2016 to save his season. I suppose you wrote a long letter to Fred back in 2013 asking for Wilson's dismissal then because we had a third straight season under him with a losing record? Right?
There are so many people here that pretend to be Nostradamus. C'mon. Crean' first squad was composed of guys that would struggle at the HPER building in a pickup game. Why does everyone say they would have fired the guy in 2011? That's silly. He brought in a solid class and 2011 was the year we turned around and went 27-9. Now, there were warning signs after that but no AD would have fired Crean after trending upward in recruiting come 2011. He obviously wasn't the answer but to say you had it all figured out 3 years in is nonsense. The roster he took over in 2008 was SMU-level-death-sentence bad!
What are you going to do when Archie finishes near the bottom of the conference this year and doesn't make a tournament. Are you going to pull your wisdom learned from the Crean years and demand for his firing now? Why not?
If Archie finishes dead last in the Big Ten in his third year then he should be gone.
I agree that deboard should be on the hot seat, and us as fans had high hopes headed into the season. But it was appearent after week 1 that this was not a breakthrough season.
We all saw that OSU game. I am not taking anything away from OSU because they have a great d-line, but a lot of that was less about OSU’s greatness on the D-line and IU’s poor play. And most of that is on the players, and not deboard. Look, those guys struggle to block the right people on inside zone plays... the most basic play in college football. There’s no communication, they don’t climb to linebackers and they get manhandled in 1 on 1 matchups. In the past, we had the depth to not play those guys because CKW had really really good O-line classes in 11’ and 12’, but if you look at what came in after those classes, the depth was not there. For example, we had Bailey, Rogers, Camiel (who was hurt) and Feeney as the opening day starters last year, with Knight filling in at tackle. That’s 4 5th year seniors. There was not depth behind them.
So as you know, the name of the game in the Big Ten is to run the ball and stop the run. If you can’t run the ball you are screwed. It’s too physical of a conference to chuck it 50 times a game like in the Big 12 or pac 12, and we don’t have a ton of 4.3 speed athletes in the Big 12. You have to have a run game. The losses to the O-line after the 15’ and 16’ seasons were too much to realistically not expect a set back. The previous lines were so good that they had Redding run for 1,000 back to back seasons and he couldn’t even make an nfl roster... and in one of the seasons he didn’t even start... and he ran a 4.78 at the combine. That’s how talented the line was. Ellison is probably more talented than Redding, but has no line.
So with that being said, you have to question how realistic it was for deboard to really have a good offense this year. I love CKW but let’s be real, there wasn’t depth behind his first two recruiting classes on the O-line which is critical. Knight and Cronk will likely develop, but hell, we had to move Feeney to tackle because of knights injuries and lackluster play. So to think that they’d be ready to come in and replace the last group was unrealistic.
Deboard can only be as good as the horses he gets, but I think that you’d agree that it’s on him to develop them this offseason. Next year, If they can’t run a basic inside zone, fire him. That’s unacceptable. But In year 1, i think the expectations were unrealistic.
Year 2 will be the make or break point for me. It is realistic to expect a 6-6 team next year because knight will be a senior, Cronk a junior, Baker a 5th year senior, Martin will be a 5th year, and Norwah has a year under his belt. They’ve been through the fire after that year, and there’s no where but up. We won’t have to chuck it 40+ times just to be competitive, but can actually have balance if they improve. Gest showed signs, Brookins showed signs, And Morgan Ellison can honestly be better than Redding, Coleman, Howard and Houston, and that’s scary. He will be around 235+ next year and ready to go. Devonte Williams and Majette showed that they can be dynamic in the pass game, and big bacon is going to be back and healthy for short yardage. That’s 7 deep at running back, with a veteran O-line. When has IU ever been 7 deep at tailback? Mix in the talent coming back at receiver even without Cobbs (I think that he will be back), and you are probably looking at one of the more talented offenses in the country. The only position concern is Tight end, but Wattercutter showed signs and will be a 5th year senior, Dorris blocks hard when he’s in, and we had two true freshman TE’s get some experience on ST, and TJ Ivy is committed and he’s a faster Ian Thomas but will need time to develop. Realistically, deboard has no excuses next year and they really just needed a year to develop that line.
Don’t be shocked if they win 7-9 games next year.
I’ll have what he’s having.
Actually, it is not time to talk about this unless you just like to discuss things that are not even a remote possibility. It is simply a waste of time.
It is ridiculous to comment Allen needs to be replaced. There is a lack of imagination and aggressiveness on the offensive side, but defense and special teams have been better than they have been for a long time. I will be watching closely to see if the offense is allowed for freedom next year. I will be interested to see if our poor OL and limitation in mobility and throwing accuracy by Lagow limited the plays available. If the offense doesn't improve, the OC needs to be replaced and if nothing is done, then we start looking at the head coach.
Ramsey was inexperienced, but that isn't an excuse for next year. Ramsey will have competition . I'm told Tronti has a game similar to Ramsey, but Tronti has a stronger arm. We also have a player coming in that is a winner and if given the chance to play QB, might just take it away from both of them
Why let the program crash and burn before fixing this mistake? There are still pieces in place now. In a couple years the new coach will be dealing with nothing but ashes of what could have been. The writing is on the wall that a change is needed. Why not get in front of it and fix this mistake?
No reasonable person would do this. We finished up 1 game worse than the previous regime. Now next year if it gets worse than that we have something to talk about.
In a rational world, you are absolutely right: Neither coach is on the hot seat and continuing the conversation is pointless.
But, here's the thing: Is this a rational world?
