Bring in the helicopters.
U.S. Embassy In Kabul Tells Staff To Destroy Sensitive Material And Evacuate
A memo obtained by NPR lays out the emergency preparations being made by American diplomats at the U.S. Embassy in Kabul — including the destruction of sensitive documents and computers.www.npr.org
Afghanistan - what a mess by Biden and Trump...
- Thread starter ribbont
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It's easy to say we shouldn't have gone into Iraq when one cannot see the alternative time line. What if failing to go into and remove Saddam resulted in his acquring WMD's and killing millions. Invading Iraq may actually be the best of all bad possible outcomes. We will never know.
Can one not agree to get out but not screw it up like Biden has, so far? I have heard 4 various generals and experts say we should have waited until the fall or winter.
Super heated sand makes glass, glass makes peace, peace makes my baby, feel a little frisky. Extreme heat in Afghanistan is a good thang. credits to Luke Bryan.
Let it playout for 2 months.... push the button. Like spreading corn under your deer stand for 2 months. Illegal as hell, but the world will thank you.
PSA - Don't forget to feed your taliban everyday. Remind them there are 72 virgins only a few days away.
Why delay the inevitable? The Afghan government has been told this was coming for a long time. They have been given every opportunity and all the resources necessary to fend off the Taliban but have shown they just aren't up to it. It's time. Biden will take a hit for it, sure, but at some point you have to pull the plug. Now or October or January... let's get it done now before we lose any more people.
The only reason it's "peaceful" is that Afghan forces have been ceding territory, equipment and personnel to the Taliban.
A HS buddy who's been over there (his son too, so that gives you an idea of how long we've been there) texted me saying he had a line on some good used ANA rifles. Never fired and only dropped once
So the slowly growing NEXT US argument about the DNC's policies and strengths (not biden's becasue we all know he isn't doing anything this is a sock puppet government), according to you, it's......... It's a peaceful protest because Afghan is simply giving the Taliban realestate, weapons and people. And that seems ok to you.
I can't wait until they move into Detroit. How do you spin that?
Now China ready to recognize Taliban as the ruling government of Afghan.
Now this is the leadership the election wanted from the US. Congrats!
Now this is the leadership the election wanted from the US. Congrats!
I do not know what he will say, but for the first half of our time the Taliban didn't launch offensives in the winter. Then they did a couple times and then it became a thing.
You're going to have to connect more dots for me.
Most of the experts I've heard have, more or less, said that Afghanistan is a failed state and there's nothing we could have done to save it. If that's the case, what do we gain by pushing it back to winter? Seems to me our only objective right now should be to get Americans and Afghan citizens who are in danger because they assisted us out of there.
Mainly that this is the fighting season and come fall and winter, the Taliban falls back to Pakistan. Then we could have had a better coordinated exit with the Afghans.
From Gen. Jack Keane: Warfare in Afghanistan is seasonal. They start in the spring and it ends in the fall. And the Taliban pack up their bags and go to Pakistan during the winter. So why are we doing a withdrawal right in the middle of the fighting season, in the heart of it? The withdrawal should have been done during, what? The winter. And we should have extended our withdrawal out until sometime next year to get all of that done and make certain that as the Taliban offensive came this year, we were able to provide the resources to counter that offensive.
Should have included you with my reply to Goat.
Mainly that this is the fighting season and come fall and winter, the Taliban falls back to Pakistan. Then we could have had a better coordinated exit with the Afghans.
From Gen. Jack Keane: Warfare in Afghanistan is seasonal. They start in the spring and it ends in the fall. And the Taliban pack up their bags and go to Pakistan during the winter. So why are we doing a withdrawal right in the middle of the fighting season, in the heart of it? The withdrawal should have been done during, what? The winter. And we should have extended our withdrawal out until sometime next year to get all of that done and make certain that as the Taliban offensive came this year, we were able to provide the resources to counter that offensive.
Mainly that this is the fighting season and come fall and winter, the Taliban falls back to Pakistan. Then we could have had a better coordinated exit with the Afghans.
From Gen. Jack Keane: Warfare in Afghanistan is seasonal. They start in the spring and it ends in the fall. And the Taliban pack up their bags and go to Pakistan during the winter. So why are we doing a withdrawal right in the middle of the fighting season, in the heart of it? The withdrawal should have been done during, what? The winter. And we should have extended our withdrawal out until sometime next year to get all of that done and make certain that as the Taliban offensive came this year, we were able to provide the resources to counter that offensive.
Would the benefits of this better coordinated exit have gone beyond buying the government one more year of existence?
I do not think it can be saved. The argument would be the Taliban would not attack in winter which would buy the government time. Given we have trained and paid their army for 15 years, I have no idea why 4 months would matter. Plus, by 2016 the Taliban started winter offensives.
And that's terrible. Which begs the question, if you were a father or brother to these girls, would you not find fighting at the very least for them as a worthwhile endeavor? The Afghans who theoretically oppose the Taliban do not. And this is not like some surprise, the Taliban are assholes. They are 7th century minded individuals with modern weapons. And yet knowing that, the American trained and equipped Afghan Army is throwing down their guns and giving up in most instances.From the WSJ, Taliban forces are going house to house in some regions forcing 12 year old girls to "marry" their soldiers. It's widespread rape.
Afghans Tell of Executions, Forced ‘Marriages’ in Taliban-Held Areas
Taliban leaders have pledged to be magnanimous in victory, but Afghans pouring into Kabul and still in Taliban-held areas say they have witnessed unprovoked attacks on civilians and executions of captured soldiers.www.wsj.com
There was never a solution in Afghanistan that was going to involve Democracy. Our best hope was to put in place a more secular minded strongman who was willing to do nasty things to keep the Taliban in line. An American backed Afghan Saddam. And there is no way in hell we would be able to sell that to the American public.
So the women of Afghanistan are once again going to suffer because the only men with a spine in the country are the ones being promised their virgins before they go meet the Muslim Allah in hell.
While I was driving to Aldi today, I heard Petraeus on NPR. He is strongly opposed to the withdrawal, partially on the grounds that the Afghan army is still wholly dependent on our operational support, and they cannot save the country without us. He advocated reversing the withdrawal and maintaining a strong presence "definitely in the short term" and probably for the "mid and long term."
The question I have is why. The winter thing might have bought us time to get translator out. But if their government cannot survive without us, what value is it.
The Taliban are crazy, but their interest is simply turning Afghanistan into a hellhole. Unlike OBL or ISIS, they have no desire to export that hellhole. And now they know not to harbor an OBL.
Another thing he said was that Afghanistan would again be a harbor for terrorists. The Brits are worried about the same thing.
They know more than I, it seems going in and kicking them out is pretty easy and they know that from last time.
I agree with Petraeus and Keane, we've botched this withdrawal. We did the same in 2011 when we withdrew from Iraq. I predicted we'd have combat troops back in Iraq within two years and we did.
Biden could have Easily had the DOD set up prepackaged air strikes to go after Tailiban concentrations in the open (as in massed on roadways headed into cities) and allowed the bad guys to capture prepositioned trucks to help them mass (which we did inadvertently anyway)... That there appears to have been nearly zero planning for this contingency aside from providing a substantial security footprint to affect the evacuation of the embassy personnel is damn near criminal... Our Enemies are smiling tonight... 😣
To be clear, Petraeus wasn't saying we botched the withdrawal, as much as he was saying that we botched the past few years of our presence, and never should have begun the withdrawal at all.
I don't understand your question. One more year? I was thinking Keane and others were saying start in Oct or Nov, maybe Dec, of this year would have been better than now. And this, if true, would seem not to help the withdrawal.
KEANE: Well, the IG from the Pentagon just reported the Taliban offensive began in May of this year, a month after President Biden made the announcement that we were pulling all U.S. troops out by August 31.
I guess what I'm trying to understand is what the actual, tangible benefits would be. A "better coordinated exit" is more a means than an end. So what are the ends? Fewer deaths? A stable government? It sounds to me, from what the experts are saying, that the end result of a temporary delay would be only that the Afghan government would collapse a little later than it otherwise will. If that's all we get out of it, I don't see the value in the delay.
Two movies are worth watching concerning Afghanistan: Charlie Wilson's War and 12 Strong. It appears Gust and General Dostum were both right.
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The relatively new War Machine on Netflix right now, starring Brad Pitt, is also super relevant here.
As a counterpoint to my thinking on this, I talked to my best friend today about this. He and his wife served in the army (were both IUROTC), and his son is now ROTC. He said he'd prefer we stay and "fight them over there instead of over here." I asked if he was tied enough to that opinion to have his son go to Afghanistan for this mission, and he said yes. Gotta respect that.
I still think it's time to find a better way. I'm bleeding heart enough, though, that I think we should offer political asylum to almost any Afghan who wants it.
Well, maybe the collapse is/was inevitable. But I took the benefits of the delay to mean the US could leave without being under gunfire. The Afgan government could have had time, without gunfire, to set up a better chain of command, etc.
I really don't know if there would be any benefit. I said I was no expert. But logic tells me that it would be easier for us to withdraw if the Taliban is in Pakistan instead of shooting at us in Afghanistan. (And I am not trying to be sparky or a butthead with that statement. I just couldn't find a good way of saying it without coming across that way.)
No, you aren't coming across as a butthead. If our inevitable evacuation comes with casualties, then your gut feeling will prove to be correct. As of right now, though, it appears our government is confident it can get everyone out.
NB: For me to consider our evacuation a success, I would require that we get out not only the Americans but all the Afghans who are in danger for providing support, such as the translators. If we are forced to abandon some of them, that will be a moral failing for Biden on par with Trump's moral failing re: the Kurds.
Well, just heard that the al-queda terrorists we held there, were set free today by the Taliban. So I would say that may not have happened if we waited for the Taliban to go back to Pakistan or let the Taliban know we were leaving early.
"In a recent interview with Mike Pompeo, he said the Taliban was told by Trump that, if they tried to take over the country by force, there would be military repercussions. There is no way Trump would have allowed this national embarrassment."
Well, the man who was Ambassador to Afghanistan from 2011-12 and served as Ambassador to Iraq under Bush actually disagrees with Pompeo, and apparently you. In fact, it sounds like he's not only blaming Trump but likely Pompeo as well, since Pompeo probably signed off on the decision to hold peace talks with the Taliban and exclude the Afghan Govt from being involved...
"Trump had planned to meet with Taliban leaders and the Afghan president at Camp David in 2019. After the meeting was canceled, a U.S. representative for Afghanistan met with Taliban leaders in Qatar in February 2020, where both sides signed a peace agreement. It’s at that meeting that Crocker believes the current situation in Afghanistan was born. Not only were there no representatives from the Afghan government present at the meeting, but Afghanistan was asked to make certain concessions to the Taliban."
Former US ambassador to Afghanistan blames Trump for the resurgence of the Taliban
The Taliban have been gaining ground in Afghanistan as US troops withdraw from the country after 20 years.
I guess you served in Vietnam and I respect your service, but by '72 the concept of throwing additional good money after bad to prop up an unpopular regime made no sense at all. America is supposed to stand for the right of indigenous people to control their own destiny, and drawing a fake dividing line between North and South Vietnam as a means of perpetuating French colonial rule in Indochina was a betrayal of our own democratic ideals...
Vietnam is not Korea. Ho Chi Minh was a South Vietnam born revolutionary who sought US assistance in his struggle for Vietnamese independence from the French long before he turned to the more receptive Soviets for aid. If you hate voter fraud, take a look at Diem's victory in 1955, when he supposedly garnered 600,000 votes in Saigon, a city of some 45,000. One of the provisions of the 1955 referendum called for a national election with a single President in charge of all of Vietnam, but Diem refused to honor the commitment because he knew Ho was far more popular...
The French got whipped and left in 1954, and for some unfathomable reason, Ike thought getting the US involved made sense. Not just blaming the GOP here, as both Kennedy and LBJ continued to get us deeper and deeper into that quagmire. But unless we were interested in establishing an Imperialist outpost in SE Asia our involvement in Vietnam never made any sense.
The Govt in the South was unpopular and corrupt thruout its history. So trying to paint Biden as some sort of pariah for refusing to sink more money into a wildly unpopular and incompetent regime in the South in 1972, is not going to resonate with any educated person...
This Admin very much reminds me of my time spent in India.
I went outside to smoke a cigarette, away from people. I was standing in front of a 1 city block long, 6' high, 20' wide pile of trash that was set on fire, setting smoldering. Half way through my Cig, I was informed that this was a no smoking area. Now with the "120% Indian humidity ultra high Baro pressure", the trash smoke was hanging about 7' off the ground as far as one could see in any direction.
Followers do things that they do not know why. They just know they are supposed to do something.
This is not a fictitious story. This is my personal experience.
I went outside to smoke a cigarette, away from people. I was standing in front of a 1 city block long, 6' high, 20' wide pile of trash that was set on fire, setting smoldering. Half way through my Cig, I was informed that this was a no smoking area. Now with the "120% Indian humidity ultra high Baro pressure", the trash smoke was hanging about 7' off the ground as far as one could see in any direction.
Followers do things that they do not know why. They just know they are supposed to do something.
This is not a fictitious story. This is my personal experience.
This is all on Biden. He is POTUS The Buck stops with him. The Taliban will again harbor terrorist groups. That alone was a reason to stay at small troop levels. Hell we have hundreds of thousands of troops in Europe and Japan They have been there for 70+ years. Leaving was plain stupid. From comments in this post I wonder how many people remember why we were there to begin with.I have no idea if Trump's exit plan would have better but I am pretty sure it could not have been worse than the mess Biden has us in. But Trump put him in this position, so he bears blame as well.
I am no expert AT ALL in Afghan foreign policy but giving back the country to the Taliban cannot be a good thing.
Good opinion article here.
Opinion | Biden Could Have Stopped the Taliban. He Chose Not To. (Published 2021)
A disastrous Taliban takeover wasn’t inevitable.www.nytimes.com
so we should just keep 5k troops or so anywhere that harbored terrorists 20 years ago?
our plan for the ME, which has been ongoing no matter the party in charge, was to balance Israel, Turkey, and Saudi Arabia against each other and collectively against Iran. A few bumps in the road, but that’s in place. The hardcore members of the house of Saud were and are much scarier than the Taliban. Those dudes seem wild af but hard to blame afghanis for wanting to rule Afghanistan and not bow to a gov propped up by a foreign power.
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