You’ve lost that Lovn’ Feeling

[CO. Hoosier]

Been reading some American History lately. I am again struck by the last weeks of the Civil War and the immediate aftermath until the day Lincoln died.

Lincoln was relentless and even ruthless in preserving the Union and by that time was equally relentless in ending slavery. Grant destroyed Lee’s Army of Northern Virginia. Lincoln never reigned in Sherman in his bone crushing march through the South and annihilation of Johnson’s forces. If any three men deserved celebration in our history, it would be Lincoln Grant and Sherman. None of them celebrated. Grant, being highly respectful of Lee humbly met him and provided generous terms of surrender, fed the confederates and Chamberlain saluted in surrender. Sherman was even more magnanimous with Johnson and his forces. Sherman and Johnson became best life long friends. Lincoln’s triumphant appearance in the Confederate Capital, Richmond, was a humble 2 mile walk though the rubble to Davis’ office. Lincoln refused to use the word ”traitor” as he spearheaded amnesty and pardons for southern fighters. Despite one of the most brutal wars in history, what emerged was a United States that soon became the envy of the world in terms of economic and political power. Thanks to Lincoln who brought us together and died truly a man of the people, by the people and for the people.

That was then. This is now. As I read about the melting down of the magnificent statue of Lee on Traveler, and the comments of how melting that statue will lead to a unified nation and more perfect Union, I wonder WTF happened. Now we speak of the Confederates in terms of traitors as we obliterate all evidence of their existence.. Lincoln, Grant, and Sherman showed us what unification really meant. It included mutual respect and even . . . .love. We’ve lost the lovin’ feeling.

 

[BradStevens]

Been reading some American History lately. I am again struck by the last weeks of the Civil War and the immediate aftermath until the day Lincoln died.

Lincoln was relentless and even ruthless in preserving the Union and by that time was equally relentless in ending slavery. Grant destroyed Lee’s Army of Northern Virginia. Lincoln never reigned in Sherman in his bone crushing march through the South and annihilation of Johnson’s forces. If any three men deserved celebration in our history, it would be Lincoln Grant and Sherman. None of them celebrated. Grant, being highly respectful of Lee humbly met him and provided generous terms of surrender, fed the confederates and Chamberlain saluted in surrender. Sherman was even more magnanimous with Johnson and his forces. Sherman and Johnson became best life long friends. Lincoln’s triumphant appearance in the Confederate Capital, Richmond, was a humble 2 mile walk though the rubble to Davis’ office. Lincoln refused to use the word ”traitor” as he spearheaded amnesty and pardons for southern fighters. Despite one of the most brutal wars in history, what emerged was a United States that soon became the envy of the world in terms of economic and political power. Thanks to Lincoln who brought us together and died truly a man of the people, by the people and for the people.

That was then. This is now. As I read about the melting down of the magnificent statue of Lee on Traveler, and the comments of how melting that statue will lead to a unified nation and more perfect Union, I wonder WTF happened. Now we speak of the Confederates in terms of traitors as we obliterate all evidence of their existence.. Lincoln, Grant, and Sherman showed us what unification really meant. It included mutual respect and even . . . .love. We’ve lost the lovin’ feeling.

View embedded media

Those men generously did that in their time to achieve unity, as you say.

But maybe we don’t have to show those dead confederates the same respect anymore. Just as we can now view their views on slavery and racism as abhorrent, why can’t we also recognize their seceding over those beliefs was, in fact, treasonous and not want to celebrate them any longer? It doesn’t matter to them—they’re dead.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Been reading some American History lately. I am again struck by the last weeks of the Civil War and the immediate aftermath until the day Lincoln died.

Lincoln was relentless and even ruthless in preserving the Union and by that time was equally relentless in ending slavery. Grant destroyed Lee’s Army of Northern Virginia. Lincoln never reigned in Sherman in his bone crushing march through the South and annihilation of Johnson’s forces. If any three men deserved celebration in our history, it would be Lincoln Grant and Sherman. None of them celebrated. Grant, being highly respectful of Lee humbly met him and provided generous terms of surrender, fed the confederates and Chamberlain saluted in surrender. Sherman was even more magnanimous with Johnson and his forces. Sherman and Johnson became best life long friends. Lincoln’s triumphant appearance in the Confederate Capital, Richmond, was a humble 2 mile walk though the rubble to Davis’ office. Lincoln refused to use the word ”traitor” as he spearheaded amnesty and pardons for southern fighters. Despite one of the most brutal wars in history, what emerged was a United States that soon became the envy of the world in terms of economic and political power. Thanks to Lincoln who brought us together and died truly a man of the people, by the people and for the people.

That was then. This is now. As I read about the melting down of the magnificent statue of Lee on Traveler, and the comments of how melting that statue will lead to a unified nation and more perfect Union, I wonder WTF happened. Now we speak of the Confederates in terms of traitors as we obliterate all evidence of their existence.. Lincoln, Grant, and Sherman showed us what unification really meant. It included mutual respect and even . . . .love. We’ve lost the lovin’ feeling.

View embedded media

Not to hijack but speaking of war I watched they shall not grow old last night. Unreal. Trench life.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Those men generously did that in their time to achieve unity, as you say.

But maybe we don’t have to show those dead confederates the same respect anymore. Just as we can now view their views on slavery and racism as abhorrent, why can’t we also recognize their seceding over those beliefs was, in fact, treasonous and not want to celebrate them any longer? It doesn’t matter to them—they’re dead.

That idea just doesn’t hold water for me. Sherman in particular took the war to the southern citizens to teach them a lesson about slavery. He was ruthless. Lincoln supported him. Grant was more focused on rounding up Lee. If these guys, and hundreds like them, can move on to more presing and current matters, who are we to turn back the clock? They saw and lived in real time what we can only read about. They are infinitely more credible about the South than todays politicians and pundits.

 

[BradStevens]

That idea just doesn’t hold water for me. Sherman in particular took the war to the southern citizens to teach them a lesson about slavery. He was ruthless. Lincoln supported him. Grant was more focused on rounding up Lee. If these guys, and hundreds like them, can move on to more presing and current matters, who are we to turn back the clock? They saw and lived in real time what we can only read about. They are infinitely more credible about the South than todays politicians and pundits.

We aren’t, or at least I’m not, turning back the clock. I’m making my own judgements in the here and now.

For a long time, Alexander the Great was seen as a role model and man to be emulated. Now, more people question him and say “huh, maybe he was a mass murderer.” Do we have to view him the same way as people of the past?

 

[UncleMark]

The South, in it's way, refused to accept defeat and kept fighting for it's "way of life". THAT is what is being addressed today.

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

The South, in it's way, refused to accept defeat and kept fighting for it's "way of life". THAT is what is being addressed today.

And the southern way of life is beyond reproach.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

The South, in it's way, refused to accept defeat

I think this is just race babble.

Yes, race issues have never gone away, but I don think we solve this by lacerating wounds that have healed.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

We aren’t, or at least I’m not, turning back the clock. I’m making my own judgements in the here and now.

For a long time, Alexander the Great was seen as a role model and man to be emulated. Now, more people question him and say “huh, maybe he was a mass murderer.” Do we have to view him the same way as people of the past?

Judgments based on what? We have much history about the minds of the players. What changed , history or historians?

 

[BradStevens]

Judgments based on what? We have much history about the minds of the players. What changed , history or historians?

Judgments based on values.

I’m with you on how history is taught—it’s not a morality play. I’m saying there is a lot more room for present values in deciding who and who not to emulate through creating a memorial, statue, or naming rights for the person.

A more egregious example to make a point: should the Russian people kept up the statues and memorials to Stalin?

 

[Marvin the Martian]

And we have more good news, Fort Gordon is now Fort Eisenhower. Ike deserves a Fort far more than Gordon.

We named more forts, and built more monuments, to Confederates than to Union. I don't care about monuments at battlefields. But we know the South went crazy building monuments in the early 1900s to push the Lost Cause Myth. They were erected as an F you on public lands and using public money to maintain.

Confederate Statues Were Never Really About Preserving History

In total, at least 830 Confederate monuments have been constructed across the U.S. Most were not built immediately after the Civil War. They were installed decades later, mostly in Southern states, when disenfranchised Black Americans’ civil rights were aggressively under attack.

projects.fivethirtyeight.com

For some reason only memorials to Confederates were built. George Thomas was a very capable Union general from Virginia. The good people who live in VA never built him a memorial, none. 27,000 Virginians fought for the Union. If everyone is concerned for all the soldiers, why didn't Virginia care about those 27,000 (6000 were Black, so that can be explained in 1900). The Lost Cause was real, even if some seem to think no one believes it today. We shouldn't celebrate the Lost Cause Myth.

I will protest for the right of CoH or anyone to display a rebel flag or build their own statue to Lee. But I don't think they have any good purpose on public ground. No more than a giant statue to Jesus or Mohammad or Buddha should be on public ground.

 

[Morrison]

Honor, duty, dignity, respect. Those attributes were what men lived by in that period of time, and actually up until fairly recently in our country.

Lincoln, Grant, and Sherman were merely displaying their genuine respect to a defeated foe, no matter if they viewed their cause as abhorrent. The dedicated soldiers of the confederacy were the sons of those left behind to write the history.

I think most southerners realize the cause was unjust and America became the great nation it is because the Union won the war. They honor their leaders and ancestors for their duty, honor, and bravery for fighting for their homeland, right or wrong. I see confederate statues and such as part of the great mosaic of American history. People should be literate enough to accept that the confederate cause was wrong, they lost a war because of it, but erasing the history on both sides is just ignorance.

They say history is written by the winners. The so called glorification of the confederacy is just our fellow countrymen pushing back on that. Proud people reinventing the cause of war, while honoring their dead.

I do not like the trend to censor history as well as literature. It’s not necessary, and divides us even more.

Edit to add: I fully agree with Marvin on the Lost Cause myth and the drive to glorify confederate leaders with statues as a catalyst for the desire to take them down.

 

[UncleMark]

They say history is written by the winners. The so called glorification of the confederacy is just our fellow countrymen pushing back on that. Proud people reinventing the cause of war, while honoring their dead.

While continuing to oppress and subjugate the descendants of slaves.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Ike deserves a Fort far more than Gordon.

Ike has an Aircraft Carrier.

For some reason only memorials to Confederates were built

We know what the reason is. A statue maker from iirc Chicago sold statues around the country. The southern cities bought more. Strictly a commercial endeavor. Many statues are identical for north and south exceptII believe, for the belt buckle.

I will protest for the right of CoH or anyone to display a rebel flag or build their own statue to Lee. But I don't think they have any good purpose on public ground. No more than a giant statue to Jesus or Mohammad or Buddha should be on public ground.

Arlington House, Lee Memorial, is a national park.

 

[Morrison]

While continuing to oppress and subjugate the descendants of slaves.

Yeah, that’s kind of important too. 🤔

 

[mcmurtry66]

Honor, duty, dignity, respect. Those attributes were what men lived by in that period of time, and actually up until fairly recently in our country.

Lincoln, Grant, and Sherman were merely displaying their genuine respect to a defeated foe, no matter if they viewed their cause as abhorrent. The dedicated soldiers of the confederacy were the sons of those left behind to write the history.

I think most southerners realize the cause was unjust and America became the great nation it is because the Union won the war. They honor their leaders and ancestors for their duty, honor, and bravery for fighting for their homeland, right or wrong. I see confederate statues and such as part of the great mosaic of American history. People should be literate enough to accept that the confederate cause was wrong, they lost a war because of it, but erasing the history on both sides is just ignorance.

They say history is written by the winners. The so called glorification of the confederacy is just our fellow countrymen pushing back on that. Proud people reinventing the cause of war, while honoring their dead.

I do not like the trend to censor history as well as literature. It’s not necessary, and divides us even more.

Edit to add: I fully agree with Marvin on the Lost Cause myth and the drive to glorify confederate leaders with statues as a catalyst for the desire to take them down.

Very well said and as someone who has spent considerable time in the south you capture the spirit and sentiment of most there

 

[DANC]

Been reading some American History lately. I am again struck by the last weeks of the Civil War and the immediate aftermath until the day Lincoln died.

Lincoln was relentless and even ruthless in preserving the Union and by that time was equally relentless in ending slavery. Grant destroyed Lee’s Army of Northern Virginia. Lincoln never reigned in Sherman in his bone crushing march through the South and annihilation of Johnson’s forces. If any three men deserved celebration in our history, it would be Lincoln Grant and Sherman. None of them celebrated. Grant, being highly respectful of Lee humbly met him and provided generous terms of surrender, fed the confederates and Chamberlain saluted in surrender. Sherman was even more magnanimous with Johnson and his forces. Sherman and Johnson became best life long friends. Lincoln’s triumphant appearance in the Confederate Capital, Richmond, was a humble 2 mile walk though the rubble to Davis’ office. Lincoln refused to use the word ”traitor” as he spearheaded amnesty and pardons for southern fighters. Despite one of the most brutal wars in history, what emerged was a United States that soon became the envy of the world in terms of economic and political power. Thanks to Lincoln who brought us together and died truly a man of the people, by the people and for the people.

That was then. This is now. As I read about the melting down of the magnificent statue of Lee on Traveler, and the comments of how melting that statue will lead to a unified nation and more perfect Union, I wonder WTF happened. Now we speak of the Confederates in terms of traitors as we obliterate all evidence of their existence.. Lincoln, Grant, and Sherman showed us what unification really meant. It included mutual respect and even . . . .love. We’ve lost the lovin’ feeling.

View embedded media

The 1800s were still a time of chivalry and honor. We're not burdened with those today.

 

[Morrison]

Been reading some American History lately. I am again struck by the last weeks of the Civil War and the immediate aftermath until the day Lincoln died.

Lincoln was relentless and even ruthless in preserving the Union and by that time was equally relentless in ending slavery. Grant destroyed Lee’s Army of Northern Virginia. Lincoln never reigned in Sherman in his bone crushing march through the South and annihilation of Johnson’s forces. If any three men deserved celebration in our history, it would be Lincoln Grant and Sherman. None of them celebrated. Grant, being highly respectful of Lee humbly met him and provided generous terms of surrender, fed the confederates and Chamberlain saluted in surrender. Sherman was even more magnanimous with Johnson and his forces. Sherman and Johnson became best life long friends. Lincoln’s triumphant appearance in the Confederate Capital, Richmond, was a humble 2 mile walk though the rubble to Davis’ office. Lincoln refused to use the word ”traitor” as he spearheaded amnesty and pardons for southern fighters. Despite one of the most brutal wars in history, what emerged was a United States that soon became the envy of the world in terms of economic and political power. Thanks to Lincoln who brought us together and died truly a man of the people, by the people and for the people.

That was then. This is now. As I read about the melting down of the magnificent statue of Lee on Traveler, and the comments of how melting that statue will lead to a unified nation and more perfect Union, I wonder WTF happened. Now we speak of the Confederates in terms of traitors as we obliterate all evidence of their existence.. Lincoln, Grant, and Sherman showed us what unification really meant. It included mutual respect and even . . . .love. We’ve lost the lovin’ feeling.

View embedded media

 

[UncleMark]

Yeah, that’s kind of important too. 🤔

Their "heritage" seems to always be forgotten in these discussions.

 

[bawlmer]

As I read about the melting down of the magnificent statue of Lee on Traveler, and the comments of how melting that statue will lead to a unified nation and more perfect Union, I wonder WTF happened. Now we speak of the Confederates in terms of traitors as we obliterate all evidence of their existence.. Lincoln, Grant, and Sherman showed us what unification really meant. It included mutual respect and even . . . .love. We’ve lost the lovin’ feeling.

As you surely know, General Lee did not support the construction of war memorials.

“I think it wiser,” the retired military leader wrote about a proposed Gettysburg memorial in 1869, “…not to keep open the sores of war but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife, to commit to oblivion the feelings engendered.”

The sentiments that gave rise to the Civil War deserved to be obliterated long ago, and there is no civic value to remembering them today.

 

[snarlcakes]

Those men generously did that in their time to achieve unity, as you say.

But maybe we don’t have to show those dead confederates the same respect anymore. Just as we can now view their views on slavery and racism as abhorrent, why can’t we also recognize their seceding over those beliefs was, in fact, treasonous and not want to celebrate them any longer? It doesn’t matter to them—they’re dead.

Slightly OT: I’m down as long as we can get rid of anything about FDR. The dude did place 80,000 Americans in concentration camps. And he gets a free pass because he developed a program to give old people money. What an asshole.

 

[secondasky]

And we have more good news, Fort Gordon is now Fort Eisenhower. Ike deserves a Fort far more than Gordon.

We named more forts, and built more monuments, to Confederates than to Union. I don't care about monuments at battlefields. But we know the South went crazy building monuments in the early 1900s to push the Lost Cause Myth. They were erected as an F you on public lands and using public money to maintain.

Confederate Statues Were Never Really About Preserving History

In total, at least 830 Confederate monuments have been constructed across the U.S. Most were not built immediately after the Civil War. They were installed decades later, mostly in Southern states, when disenfranchised Black Americans’ civil rights were aggressively under attack.

projects.fivethirtyeight.com

For some reason only memorials to Confederates were built. George Thomas was a very capable Union general from Virginia. The good people who live in VA never built him a memorial, none. 27,000 Virginians fought for the Union. If everyone is concerned for all the soldiers, why didn't Virginia care about those 27,000 (6000 were Black, so that can be explained in 1900). The Lost Cause was real, even if some seem to think no one believes it today. We shouldn't celebrate the Lost Cause Myth.

I will protest for the right of CoH or anyone to display a rebel flag or build their own statue to Lee. But I don't think they have any good purpose on public ground. No more than a giant statue to Jesus or Mohammad or Buddha should be on public ground.

Next time be sure and tell us the Southern Poverty Law Center collected the data.

 

[secondasky]

Been reading some American History lately. I am again struck by the last weeks of the Civil War and the immediate aftermath until the day Lincoln died.

Lincoln was relentless and even ruthless in preserving the Union and by that time was equally relentless in ending slavery. Grant destroyed Lee’s Army of Northern Virginia. Lincoln never reigned in Sherman in his bone crushing march through the South and annihilation of Johnson’s forces. If any three men deserved celebration in our history, it would be Lincoln Grant and Sherman. None of them celebrated. Grant, being highly respectful of Lee humbly met him and provided generous terms of surrender, fed the confederates and Chamberlain saluted in surrender. Sherman was even more magnanimous with Johnson and his forces. Sherman and Johnson became best life long friends. Lincoln’s triumphant appearance in the Confederate Capital, Richmond, was a humble 2 mile walk though the rubble to Davis’ office. Lincoln refused to use the word ”traitor” as he spearheaded amnesty and pardons for southern fighters. Despite one of the most brutal wars in history, what emerged was a United States that soon became the envy of the world in terms of economic and political power. Thanks to Lincoln who brought us together and died truly a man of the people, by the people and for the people.

That was then. This is now. As I read about the melting down of the magnificent statue of Lee on Traveler, and the comments of how melting that statue will lead to a unified nation and more perfect Union, I wonder WTF happened. Now we speak of the Confederates in terms of traitors as we obliterate all evidence of their existence.. Lincoln, Grant, and Sherman showed us what unification really meant. It included mutual respect and even . . . .love. We’ve lost the lovin’ feeling.

View embedded media

Lincoln wanted to unite the country and saw no reason to go after the confederates. Many politicians disagreed with him including Johnson. Johnson changed course but eventually gave amnesty to all confederates. Grant who was actually more well known than Lincoln in Europe respected Lee and even had him come to the White House. Grant asked Lee to sign an oath of allegiance knowing full well that most confederates would also sign it if Lee did. Lee did end up signing.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Next time be sure and tell us the Southern Poverty Law Center collected the data.

What, can you find a single source suggesting Confederate monuments were not built at those times?

 

[Marvin the Martian]

We know what the reason is

What reason is that?

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Lincoln wanted to unite the country and saw no reason to go after the confederates. Many politicians disagreed with him including Johnson. Johnson changed course but eventually gave amnesty to all confederates. Grant who was actually more well known than Lincoln in Europe respected Lee and even had him come to the White House. Grant asked Lee to sign an oath of allegiance knowing full well that most confederates would also sign it if Lee did. Lee did end up signing.

Yes. Lincoln’s second inaugural is also part of this. I thought the oaths were a condition of amnesty and pardons.

According to most history I’ve read, Lincoln’s unity message was an important part of saving the union. Perversely, in many ways were were more United in those days than we are today.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

As you surely know, General Lee did not support the construction of war memorials.

“I think it wiser,” the retired military leader wrote about a proposed Gettysburg memorial in 1869, “…not to keep open the sores of war but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife, to commit to oblivion the feelings engendered.”

The sentiments that gave rise to the Civil War deserved to be obliterated long ago, and there is no civic value to remembering them today.

The differences in Gettysburg memorials of the South and the north are stark. It shouldn’t be a surprise that the confederate states are more about celebrating people and the north not so much. This carries through to this day as the confederate states provide military volunteers well in excess of their population percentage.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

What reason is that?

Entrepreneurship.

 

[BradStevens]

The differences in Gettysburg memorials of the South and the north are stark. It shouldn’t be a surprise that the confederate states are more about celebrating people and the north not so much. This carries through to this day as the confederate states provide military volunteers well in excess of their population percentage.

Why shouldn’t that be a surprise? I don’t understand.

 

[UncleMark]

According to most history I’ve read, Lincoln’s unity message was an important part of saving the union. Perversely, in many ways were were more United in those days than we are today.

1876 would beg to differ.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Slightly OT: I’m down as long as we can get rid of anything about FDR. The dude did place 80,000 Americans in concentration camps. And he gets a free pass because he developed a program to give old people money. What an asshole.

He also excluded Jesse Owens from the White House celebration of the 1936 Olympians. Roosevelt was an old school racist. But he was a Democrat so historians give him a pass.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Why shouldn’t that be a surprise? I don’t understand.

The southern states are more militaristic. I’m sure there is material about why that is, but I haven’t read why.

 

[UncleMark]

The southern states are more militaristic. I’m sure there is material about why that is, but I haven’t read why.

They need jobs. Military means a gubmunt check.

 

[DANC]

They need jobs. Military means a gubmunt check.

That used to be the case. Not anymore.

 

[UncleMark]

That used to be the case. Not anymore.

Not since they broke the unions.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

The southern states are more militaristic. I’m sure there is material about why that is, but I haven’t read why.

There are Confederate monuments in Mass, NY, IN, Iowa. Helena MT has one but it has been renamed. Any wild guesses how many thousands of people from MT fought for the Confederacy (or from NY, or MA)? They were propagating the lost cause myth.

Confederate Memorial Fountain (Helena, Montana) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[DANC]

Not since they broke the unions.

They never had a union culture down south. That's why so many jobs are there now and why Anderson and Kokomo are now without GM plants.

Somehow, Kokomo has convinced Stelantis that it's the center of the universe. Also, 2 new battery plants are moving in there and Koreans are moving in by the dozens. Weird.

 

[Cthulhu85]

Lincoln done great things but he's no hero. He considered African Americans inferior and tried to resettle them

When Abraham Lincoln Tried to Resettle Free Black Americans in the Caribbean | HISTORY

Lincoln wanted to end slavery—but wasn’t keen on integrating African Americans into US society. His first attempt to send them offshore proved disastrous.

www.history.com

 

[BradStevens]

Lincoln done great things but he's no hero. He considered African Americans inferior and tried to resettle them

When Abraham Lincoln Tried to Resettle Free Black Americans in the Caribbean | HISTORY

Lincoln wanted to end slavery—but wasn’t keen on integrating African Americans into US society. His first attempt to send them offshore proved disastrous.

www.history.com

He was a hero. Heroes aren’t perfect.

 

[Cthulhu85]

He was a hero. Heroes aren’t perfect.

I don't disagree. What he did was great. But to understand history we should know ALL of it.

Reconstruction is a big part of US History. Lincolns assination destroyed any chance of reconciliation. Andrew Johnson was a peice of shit. Set us back by 20 years. When Grant became president we finally started to fix things.