Voter suppression, white privilege, gun control, criminal justice reform and equity in one graph

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Well noodle, I have never posted in disrespect of you, even though you feel the need to do that to me evey time you post a response. In fact you used to have my admiration. That ends now. A moron can read my opening post and understand the point is about black and white people and gun deaths. Period. Yet you bring up a part of the graph that I never mentioned (except in response to a comment) for the sole purpose of saying I post bullshit. Well fine, the satisfaction you find with that kind of posting is for you to know. I have never found posting like that to be satisfying. I’d rather discuss ideas rather than bring up a sideshow for no purpose other than saying a person posts bullshit.

if you want to discuss my post in terms of its point, fine, You are plenty smart enough to contribute. If you want to post about me and Finland, you can go screw yourself. I’m done with you.

I think the problem sir, is that when some data on the chart is so obviously wrong, why would anybody trust the rest of the chart just to continue along a narrative?

 

[mainway_toys]

What’s the source of this chart

Probably the Daily Stormer.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

My kid has a far better chance of getting shot in a parking garage going to opening day than with an AR15 at her school. We won’t go to night games

Agreed but the AR-promulgated violence has been going on way too long. People who are honest and understand ballistics know there’s a reason that the fundamental military infantry rifle hasn’t really evolved in decades. It’s a lethal killing machine that delivers precision at range and at a high rate of fire. Civilians have no business having these in their homes without a bonafide reason (eg defense of livestock, proximity of dangerous predators, etc).

Your points are valid but I’m tired of the mass shootings and I’m well aware that if something like that happened to me, I’d stand almost no chance of surviving a 5.56mm wound but a better chance of surviving handgun wounds. Cops too stand very little chance of taking on a psycho with an AR that’s put the work in to get good at it.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

It is interesting to point out that there is a huge problem with homicide in the Black community and argue that longstanding systemic racism absolutely plays no role in it. So welfare alone has created this problem?

Sounds like you assume critical race theory is an antidote to systemic racism. I don’t agree. As I’ve posted often, except for education, I think “systemic racism“ is a dodge to avoid the hard conversation about race relations. And hustlers use CRT for power and influence not to mention getting rich. It is contrary to everything MLK said about the importance of character over skin color.

As for your larger point, there are a number of concurrent causes for the black on black gun violence, and our history of racism is among those. But we can’t solve the problem with preaching CRT to white government and Fortune 500 employees. We teach CRT because it’s easy and fits our current self-loathing attitudes , not because it’s helpful.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Agreed but the AR-promulgated violence has been going on way too long. People who are honest and understand ballistics know there’s a reason that the fundamental military infantry rifle hasn’t really evolved in decades. It’s a lethal killing machine that delivers precision at range and at a high rate of fire. Civilians have no business having these in their homes without a bonafide reason (eg defense of livestock, proximity of dangerous predators, etc).

Your points are valid but I’m tired of the mass shootings and I’m well aware that if something like that happened to me, I’d stand almost no chance of surviving a 5.56mm wound but a better chance of surviving handgun wounds. Cops too stand very little chance of taking on a psycho with an AR that’s put the work in to get good at it.

Your point about civilians rests at the heart of the negligence actions currently pending.

I read an article that AR15 sales had a massive spike after the blm George Floyd riots and again after the unrest from the Capitol insurrection. This is why legislation is going to be difficult. People got scared and think the mob might come one day. Lifting immunity is more surreptitious and a better angle imo

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Your point about civilians rests at the heart of the current negligence actions currently pending.

I read an article that AR15 sales had a massive spike after the blm George Floyd riots and unrest from Capitol insurrection. This is why legislation is going to be difficult. People got scared and think the mob might come one day. Lifting immunity is more surreptitious and a better angle imo

I am fine with any legislation that takes infantry rifles out of private ownership or puts severe burden on those who would opt to keep them.

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

(eg defense of livestock, proximity of dangerous predators, etc).

(eg defense of Family and Children, Proximity to dangerous home intruders and an unjust tyranical government).

 

[mcmurtry66]

I am fine with any legislation that takes infantry rifles out of private ownership or puts severe burden on those who would opt to keep them.

i'm not sure that'll happen though because again there's more desire to own these weapons than ever before thanks to blm riots and capitol riots. (See joe hoopiers' response to yours as evidence). the better approach is to lift immunity and make manufacturers and retailers liable. that happens special liability for gun manufacturers will go through the roof and force a business decision on manufs and retailers

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

(eg defense of Family and Children, Proximity to dangerous home intruders and an unjust tyranical government).

It’s a terrible home defense weapon. A shotgun is the best by a longshot (no pun intended) against home intrusion.

Good luck taking on the government. That’s a fool’s game.

Seriously, other than being super fun to shoot, they are only useful for mass shootings and varmint control in the hands of a civilian. They should be kept at ranges for the plinkers.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Agreed but the AR-promulgated violence has been going on way too long. People who are honest and understand ballistics know there’s a reason that the fundamental military infantry rifle hasn’t really evolved in decades. It’s a lethal killing machine that delivers precision at range and at a high rate of fire. Civilians have no business having these in their homes without a bonafide reason (eg defense of livestock, proximity of dangerous predators, etc).

Your points are valid but I’m tired of the mass shootings and I’m well aware that if something like that happened to me, I’d stand almost no chance of surviving a 5.56mm wound but a better chance of surviving handgun wounds. Cops too stand very little chance of taking on a psycho with an AR that’s put the work in to get good at it.

A couple of days ago I discussed AR 15’s with a good friend. He is former military, likes his guns, and CC’s. I mentioned the highly destructive nature of the AR ammunition and he said he loads his with the kind of ammo that won’t shoot through walls or do as much damage to people. Do you have any idea what he might be talking about?

BTW, as you know I agree with you about AR‘s and destructive ammo. I think they both should be taken out of the stream of commerce. Lifting immunity has a good chance of doing that. “Assault Weapon” bans has no chance. As far as I am concerned, all guns are assault weapons.

 

[mcmurtry66]

A couple of days ago I discussed AR 15’s with a good friend. He is former military, likes his guns, and CC’s. I mentioned the highly destructive nature of the AR ammunition and he said he loads his with the kind of ammo that won’t shoot through walls or do as much damage to people. Do you have any idea what he might be talking about?

BTW, as you know I agree with you about AR‘s and destructive ammo. I think they both should be taken out of the stream of commerce. Lifting immunity has a good chance of doing that. “Assault Weapon” bans has no chance. As far as I am concerned, all guns are assault weapons.

All it would take is one runaway jury to break that industry. Lift immunity and no insurer/reinsurer will cover that

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

A couple of days ago I discussed AR 15’s with a good friend. He is former military, likes his guns, and CC’s. I mentioned the highly destructive nature of the AR ammunition and he said he loads his with the kind of ammo that won’t shoot through walls or do as much damage to people. Do you have any idea what he might be talking about?

BTW, as you know I agree with you about AR‘s and destructive ammo. I think they both should be taken out of the stream of commerce. Lifting immunity has a good chance of doing that. “Assault Weapon” bans has no chance. As far as I am concerned, all guns are assault weapons.

There are specialty low grain rounds that can be bought but they are expensive and hard to find. They do limit penetration but still not as much as a shotgun would. 5.56mm FMJ though is far more ubiquitous.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I think the problem sir, is that when some data on the chart is so obviously wrong, why would anybody trust the rest of the chart just to continue along a narrative?

Fair point. But you can’t get there with personal attacks. If there is evidence that the graph is wrong about the black/white difference, let’s see it. As far as the “narrative” is concerned, is there a dispute that black people shoot black people in far greater numbers than any race shoots whites? As a court might say, that fact that is subject to judicial notice to be believed without evidence. The point of the graph is the same as any graph, to make a picture of the data.

 

[Noodle]

I think the problem sir, is that when some data on the chart is so obviously wrong, why would anybody trust the rest of the chart just to continue along a narrative?

Exactly. If the point of the chart is to show the supposed rate of firearm homicides of blacks, why include Finland, Austria, France, etc. - other than to say "look how safe it is in this country if you are white. Why Finland, Austria, etc. are more dangerous than it is for white people in the U.S.!"

 

[Noodle]

Fair point. But you can’t get there with personal attacks. If there is evidence that the graph is wrong about the black/white difference, let’s see it. As far as the “narrative” is concerned, is there a dispute that black people shoot black people in far greater numbers than any race shoots whites? As a court might say, that fact that is subject to judicial notice to be believed without evidence. The point of the graph is the same as any graph, to make a picture of the data.

The point of the graph is to push a narrative with blatantly false and misleading data. That kind of crap deserves to be attacked.

Query: Does the 6.4 deaths per 100,000 for Hispanics in your chart include death by suicide? hmmmm....

Total Deaths due to Firearms by Race/Ethnicity | KFF

www.kff.org

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Fair point. But you can’t get there with personal attacks. If there is evidence that the graph is wrong about the black/white difference, let’s see it. As far as the “narrative” is concerned, is there a dispute that black people shoot black people in far greater numbers than any race shoots whites? As a court might say, that fact that is subject to judicial notice to be believed without evidence. The point of the graph is the same as any graph, to make a picture of the data.

The chart is egregiously missing source and methodology. Until that is established your hypotheses are only hypotheses - but they’re probably right.

 

[mcmurtry66]

The chart is egregiously missing source and methodology. Until that is established your hypotheses are only hypotheses - but they’re probably right.

Source is at the bottom. That said no point comparing outside US. The salient data is on doj site and easy to understand

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Exactly. If the point of the chart is to show the supposed rate of firearm homicides of blacks, why include Finland, Austria, France, etc. - other than to say "look how safe it is in this country if you are white. Why Finland, Austria, etc. are more dangerous than it is for white people in the U.S.!"

The rest of the charts in that blog (if you looked at it) were well-sourced and super interesting. But that chart looks like a fourth grader put it together so it immediately had my BS meter pegged.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Source is at the bottom

Lol. That’s not a source man. Throwing alphabet soup agencies without explaining what report or linking to the source data is not a proper source.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Lol. That’s not a source man. Throwing alphabet soup agencies without explaining what report or linking to the source data is not a proper source.

I went to cdc and read their stats. It was a convoluted pain in the ass. Again it’s easier to follow doj and no point going outside US to make the point he was striving for. The graph lost the broader point he wanted

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Interesting chart below on Black homicide rates. It is admittedly off on Illinois as only Chicago and Rockford submitted their data to the FBI. It is hard to know if their rate would go up or down if downstate submitted. This uses the 2016 FBI Supplemental Homicide Data Report.

Redirect Notice

NUMBER OF BLACK HOMICIDE VICTIMS AND RATES BY STATE IN 2016, RANKED BY RATE
Ranking State Number of Homicides Homicide Rate per 100,000

1 Missouri 333 46.21
2 Wisconsin 144 37.57
3 West Virginia 24 36.86
4 Illinois* 685 36.40
5 Indiana 205 31.93
6 Kentucky 106 28.85
7 Michigan 402 28.55
8 Tennessee 323 28.41
9 Louisiana 423 27.72
10 Pennsylvania 415 27.50

Another site says the same report has 66% of the gun deaths comes from handguns. https://www.colorlines.com/articles/where-does-your-state-rank-when-it-comes-black-homicide

So it would seem focusing on ARs is silly in solving Black homicides, but there is zero chance of handgun reform. The odds of AR reform might be .01%, but that is far better than .0000000%.

It is an important issue that needs solved.

Lifting immunity would be hand gun reform. Nidal Hasan carried out his massacre with hand guns and he presented red flags at the point of sale. In my opinion, he presented enough evidence of being a nut that the sale wouldn’t have been made if the gun seller would have been exposed. We also have the issue of flooding a market with handguns that lifting immunity would address As it did with oxy.

 

[Noodle]

The rest of the charts in that blog (if you looked at it) were well-sourced and super interesting. But that chart looks like a fourth grader put it together so it immediately had my BS meter pegged.

The dead giveaway was the suggestion that the homicide by firearm rate in Finland is double that for whites in the U.S. It would appear that firearm suicides and accidental shootings were not included in the data for white Americans (and probably blacks), but not for any other group (Hispanics) or country. Now, why in the world would someone do that???

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Sounds like you assume critical race theory is an antidote to systemic racism. I don’t agree. As I’ve posted often, except for education, I think “systemic racism“ is a dodge to avoid the hard conversation about race relations. And hustlers use CRT for power and influence not to mention getting rich. It is contrary to everything MLK said about the importance of character over skin color.

As for your larger point, there are a number of concurrent causes for the black on black gun violence, and our history of racism is among those. But we can’t solve the problem with preaching CRT to white government and Fortune 500 employees. We teach CRT because it’s easy and fits our current self-loathing attitudes , not because it’s helpful.

I have never sat through a CRT (which stands for Combat Results Table where I come from) class so I am not positive what is taught. There are plenty of mentions of it online but amazingly it appears online is not as accurate as we would think.

I think we agree that for most of the time that there has been a European based civilization on North America it has not been close to color blind. A lot of laws were written, customs adopted, conventions created, to prevent equalization between the races. So yes, MLK saw that day a coming where race does not matter but we are lying if we say that day has happened.

Here is one example, it was not long ago virtually every White athlete was described as "smart" or "heady" and the Black athletes were "athletic". Isn't that racism? Is that the type of racism that should be discussed and changed? And it may well still exist (https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/oct/02/athletes-racism-language-sports-cam-newton). It may not be coincidental that in this year's NCAA tourney that it was the Black players at Illinois and Ohio State targeted for mistreatment on social media after losing in the NCAAs and not White players.

You do admit past racism is a cause for the problems the Black community is experiencing. That is good, we can quibble over how much that is to blame but if we agree it is a factor then we are in the same ballpark and we can go from there.

I don't doubt CRT might go too far. Maybe someone will send me to a class so I can see. But the bigger problem facing America isn't CRT, racism is still a bigger issue. Dr Seuss, Mr Pototo Head, CRT, are distractions from bigger issues. America has had a very racist past. We have made improvements, but 1) those improvements do not change the fact the past was very racist and 2) the improvements need to continue.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

I went to cdc and read their stats. It was a convoluted pain in the ass. Again it’s easier to follow doj and no point going outside US to make the point he was striving for. The graph lost the broader point he wanted

Convoluted graphs that tell a surprising story and then don’t properly source will only serve to negate any point being made, to your point.

 

[Noodle]

I went to cdc and read their stats. It was a convoluted pain in the ass. Again it’s easier to follow doj and no point going outside US to make the point he was striving for. The graph lost the broader point he wanted

Yes, the CDC data, while available, is difficult to navigate.

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

It is interesting to point out that there is a huge problem with homicide in the Black community and argue that longstanding systemic racism absolutely plays no role in it. So welfare alone has created this problem?

Why do you continue to ignore the root causes? Every time I bring up the real issues, you disengage.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Why do you continue to ignore the root causes? Every time I bring up the real issues, you disengage.

Remind me of the real issues?

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

Remind me of the real issues?

Filibuster Racist

When are normal democrats going to stand up to these idiots and tell them to stop with every issue being racist, homophobic and other identity politics? https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/543920-elizabeth-warren-filibuster-has-deep-roots-in-racism?amp

indiana.forums.rivals.com

 

[mcmurtry66]

Yes, the CDC data, while available, is difficult to navigate.

In re to your mention of Alice. I’ll never forget when my kid came home talking about it. A real kick in the nuts. You never want to hear “active shooter” coming out of a kid’s mouth. Ugh. Put a fly in this idyllic grade school life we all hope for

 

[CO. Hoosier]

America has had a very racist past. We have made improvements, but 1) those improvements do not change the fact the past was very racist and 2) the improvements need to continue.

yes, we do have a racist past. But dwelling on the divisions of the past is not a constructive way forward. MLK saw this with a clarity I didn’t fully appreciate at the time, but clearly see now as I compare his message with CRT and the attendant self-loathing. (Age may have something to do with it but I ain’t going there).

We can only move forward with breaking with the past, not continued use of the past as an excuse why we can’t move forward. Otherwise we’d become the Middle East or the Balkans.

A week or so ago, Biden repeated a current theme that I think is particularly disgusting which was “We have never lived up to our ideals of equality“ (paraphrasing). That ideal is a constant goal to drive us forward, not a milestone to be reached. As soon as we achieve equality in anything, we are dead in the water. Human activity in economics or socialization is the constant quest for equilibrium that will never be achieved.

 

[Noodle]

In re to your mention of Alice. I’ll never forget when my kid came home talking about it. A real kick in the nuts. You never want to hear “active shooter” coming out of a kid’s mouth. Ugh. Put a fly in this idyllic grade school life we all hope for

Yep. We have had active shooter training in our firm. it started with a video reenactment of the Columbine shooting.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Yep. We have had active shooter training in our firm. it started with a video reenactment of the Columbine shooting.

brutal

 

[IUCrazy2]

Much of your data is simply wrong. For example, the firearm homicide rate in Finland is not even remotely close to 3.3 per 100,000. It’s about 0.2. Austria 2.8? Good grief, no. I don’t have the time or inclination to provide the actual data for the others countries but as usual your post is full of shit.

Finland Homicides by firearm rate, 1990-2023 - knoema.com

In 2019, homicides by firearm rate for Finland was 0.1 cases per 100,000 population. Though Finland homicides by firearm rate fluctuated substantially in recent years, it tended to decrease through 2005 - 2019 period ending at 0.1 cases per 100,000 population in 2019. “Homicide” is defined as...

knoema.com

Not getting too deep into this because you cannot bring up any of these topics without people getting stupid.

That being said, the Finland rate appears to include suicides. It is the only one I checked. Not sure if the U.S. figures do as well or not because they are split between 3 racial groups.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

In re to your mention of Alice. I’ll never forget when my kid came home talking about it. A real kick in the nuts. You never want to hear “active shooter” coming out of a kid’s mouth. Ugh. Put a fly in this idyllic grade school life we all hope for

Hell we had duck and cover drills for atom bomb attacks in school. . We also all had pamphlets about what to do and saw the scary movies about those buildings blasted to smithereens at the Nevada test site. We all survived intact notwithstanding some of the contrary BS posted here.

 

[bigmac76]

I am fine with any legislation that takes infantry rifles out of private ownership or puts severe burden on those who would opt to keep them.

Ranger, 100% agree!
Military style assault rifles ...belong in the hands of our military and our police officers!
They are not "hunting" rifles...with high capacity magazines. If you need 30 rounds to kill a deer, I suggest you stop deer hunting.

Signed,
A responsible gun owner!

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Ranger, 100% agree!
Military style assault rifles ...belong in the hands of our military and our police officers!
They are not "hunting" rifles...with high capacity magazines. If you need 30 rounds to kill a deer, I suggest you stop deer hunting.

Signed,
A responsible gun owner!

I would disagree with police officers having them outside of SWAT / HRT teams. I’m also a responsible gun owner but there are no merits to private ownership of infantry rifles.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Hell we had duck and cover drills for atom bomb attacks in school. . We also all had pamphlets about what to do and saw the scary movies about those buildings blasted to smithereens at the Nevada test site. We all survived intact notwithstanding some of the contrary BS posted here.

You’re old

 

[CO. Hoosier]

You’re old

And I’ve been seen stumbling on stairs too.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Not getting too deep into this because you cannot bring up any of these topics without people getting stupid.

That being said, the Finland rate appears to include suicides. It is the only one I checked. Not sure if the U.S. figures do as well or not because they are split between 3 racial groups.

None of the ex-US rates check out without including the suicide rates which again makes the original chart misleading.

 

[IUCrazy2]

I would disagree with police officers having them outside of SWAT / HRT teams. I’m also a responsible gun owner but there are no merits to private ownership of infantry rifles.

Edit: Ignore. Not wanting to get sucked into this rabbit hole again.