Ukraine just keeps getting messier

[TomEric4756]

From ISW 11/26 … https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-april-26-2023

“Russia appears to be continuing a deliberate depopulation campaign in occupied areas of Ukraine in order to facilitate the repopulation of Ukrainian territories with Russians. Ukrainian Deputy Defense Minister Hanna Malyar stated on April 26 that Russia is trying to change the ethnic composition of Ukraine by actively conducting a large-scale resettlement of people mainly from poorer and remote regions of Russia into Ukraine.[1] Malyar noted that the most intensive efforts are ongoing in occupied Luhansk Oblast and remarked that Russia is also deporting Ukrainians and forcibly resettling them in Russia.[2] ISW previously reported on specific instances of Russian authorities overseeing the depopulation and repopulation of areas of occupied Ukraine, particularly in occupied Kherson Oblast over the course of 2022. Ukrainian sources remarked in October 2022 that Russian authorities in then-occupied parts of Kherson Oblast deported large groups of Ukrainian residents to Russia under the guise of humanitarian evacuations and then repopulated their homes with Russian soldiers.[3] Russia may hope to import Russians to fill depopulated areas of Ukraine in order to further integrate occupied areas into Russian socially, administratively, politically, and economically, thereby complicating conditions for the reintegration of these territories into Ukraine. ISW has previously assessed that such depopulation and repopulation campaigns may amount to a deliberate ethnic cleansing effort and apparent violation of the Geneva Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.[4]”

Lebensraum … is what in Russian?

 

[Marvin the Martian]

From ISW 11/26 … https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-april-26-2023

“Russia appears to be continuing a deliberate depopulation campaign in occupied areas of Ukraine in order to facilitate the repopulation of Ukrainian territories with Russians. Ukrainian Deputy Defense Minister Hanna Malyar stated on April 26 that Russia is trying to change the ethnic composition of Ukraine by actively conducting a large-scale resettlement of people mainly from poorer and remote regions of Russia into Ukraine.[1] Malyar noted that the most intensive efforts are ongoing in occupied Luhansk Oblast and remarked that Russia is also deporting Ukrainians and forcibly resettling them in Russia.[2] ISW previously reported on specific instances of Russian authorities overseeing the depopulation and repopulation of areas of occupied Ukraine, particularly in occupied Kherson Oblast over the course of 2022. Ukrainian sources remarked in October 2022 that Russian authorities in then-occupied parts of Kherson Oblast deported large groups of Ukrainian residents to Russia under the guise of humanitarian evacuations and then repopulated their homes with Russian soldiers.[3] Russia may hope to import Russians to fill depopulated areas of Ukraine in order to further integrate occupied areas into Russian socially, administratively, politically, and economically, thereby complicating conditions for the reintegration of these territories into Ukraine. ISW has previously assessed that such depopulation and repopulation campaigns may amount to a deliberate ethnic cleansing effort and apparent violation of the Geneva Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.[4]”

Lebensraum … is what in Russian?

I don't think there is any way Ukraine wins, in the sense they get back all of the land so far taken including Crimea. I would love to be wrong, but it seems impossible.

So any deal at this point is going to have to contain strong guarantees for Ukraine or in 10 years the Russian hordes will descend again. It seems clear the ultra nationalists have total power in Russia and that does not appear likely to change in any reasonable amount of time.

 

[Bill4411]

From ISW 11/26 … https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-april-26-2023

“Russia appears to be continuing a deliberate depopulation campaign in occupied areas of Ukraine in order to facilitate the repopulation of Ukrainian territories with Russians. Ukrainian Deputy Defense Minister Hanna Malyar stated on April 26 that Russia is trying to change the ethnic composition of Ukraine by actively conducting a large-scale resettlement of people mainly from poorer and remote regions of Russia into Ukraine.[1] Malyar noted that the most intensive efforts are ongoing in occupied Luhansk Oblast and remarked that Russia is also deporting Ukrainians and forcibly resettling them in Russia.[2] ISW previously reported on specific instances of Russian authorities overseeing the depopulation and repopulation of areas of occupied Ukraine, particularly in occupied Kherson Oblast over the course of 2022. Ukrainian sources remarked in October 2022 that Russian authorities in then-occupied parts of Kherson Oblast deported large groups of Ukrainian residents to Russia under the guise of humanitarian evacuations and then repopulated their homes with Russian soldiers.[3] Russia may hope to import Russians to fill depopulated areas of Ukraine in order to further integrate occupied areas into Russian socially, administratively, politically, and economically, thereby complicating conditions for the reintegration of these territories into Ukraine. ISW has previously assessed that such depopulation and repopulation campaigns may amount to a deliberate ethnic cleansing effort and apparent violation of the Geneva Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.[4]”

Lebensraum … is what in Russian?

Different tyrant same game for Ukraine. Stalin did the same thing in the 1930's with his starvation campaign against the farm community now termed the Holdomor, starving to death 4 million or so Ukrainians and then moving in Russians to take their places. Putin's just using a page out of the old Russian playbook of atrocities.

 

[Mas-sa-suta]

From ISW 11/26 … https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-april-26-2023

“Russia appears to be continuing a deliberate depopulation campaign in occupied areas of Ukraine in order to facilitate the repopulation of Ukrainian territories with Russians. Ukrainian Deputy Defense Minister Hanna Malyar stated on April 26 that Russia is trying to change the ethnic composition of Ukraine by actively conducting a large-scale resettlement of people mainly from poorer and remote regions of Russia into Ukraine.[1] Malyar noted that the most intensive efforts are ongoing in occupied Luhansk Oblast and remarked that Russia is also deporting Ukrainians and forcibly resettling them in Russia.[2] ISW previously reported on specific instances of Russian authorities overseeing the depopulation and repopulation of areas of occupied Ukraine, particularly in occupied Kherson Oblast over the course of 2022. Ukrainian sources remarked in October 2022 that Russian authorities in then-occupied parts of Kherson Oblast deported large groups of Ukrainian residents to Russia under the guise of humanitarian evacuations and then repopulated their homes with Russian soldiers.[3] Russia may hope to import Russians to fill depopulated areas of Ukraine in order to further integrate occupied areas into Russian socially, administratively, politically, and economically, thereby complicating conditions for the reintegration of these territories into Ukraine. ISW has previously assessed that such depopulation and repopulation campaigns may amount to a deliberate ethnic cleansing effort and apparent violation of the Geneva Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.[4]”

Lebensraum … is what in Russian?

Open Borders?

 

[TomEric4756]

ISW has a long essay today on Ukraine as a long war https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/reframing-us-policy-debate-‘long-war’-ukraine

each of the following statements is supported with a paragraph.

• The policy debate about the US facing a “long war” in Ukraine is misframed. Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is not a long war for the US, because the US is not fighting this war. Nor is the US fighting a proxy war. The West and Ukraine are not protracting or spreading this war; Russia is.
• A long Russian war is not an inherent Kremlin goal, but rather the Kremlin’s adaptation in pursuit of its maximalist objectives in Ukraine.
• The Kremlin’s ability to sustain a long war in Ukraine is not a given, however, and disproportionately depends on whether Russia is given time and space to rebuild its capabilities.
• The Kremlin’s ability to threaten the US and NATO, as well as the future of Russia’s power globally, disproportionately depends on Russia’s gains or losses in Ukraine.
• Metering Western support to Ukraine and inadequately resourcing all of the required Ukrainian counteroffensives — not just the next one — will protract Russia’s war and increase the associated risks for the US.
• The US risks facing the same escalation risks under worse conditions if it does not help Ukraine liberate its territory through a series of successive counteroffensive operations.
• The West has a profound ability to shape the outcome of the war in Ukraine. The West’s problem is not capability; it is perception.

Metering Western support e.g. Jets, Tanks, Artillery is cited as the most likely strategy to prolong the war and increase the risk of boots on the ground. I don’t think the comments on momentum are underrated. Once movement starts on the battlefield, momentum created can turn into big gains as the rear areas are seldom capable of resisting once the front line breakthrough reaches them.

 

[82hoosier]

We would not have this trouble in Ukraine if Trump had been reelected president. There is no way that Putin would have invaded Ukraine. Well, at least that's what Trump said and still continues to say. Of course he still says the election was stolen also.

 

[Cthulhu85]

Ukraine is a European problem. Let them deal with it.

 

[82hoosier]

Ukraine is a European problem. Let them deal with it.

And covid was a Chinese problem. Let them deal with that!

Did you ever hear about something called the Cuba missile crisis? Or read anything with the word history in the title?

 

[DANC]

We would not have this trouble in Ukraine if Trump had been reelected president. There is no way that Putin would have invaded Ukraine. Well, at least that's what Trump said and still continues to say. Of course he still says the election was stolen also.

He's right. All this started when Putin saw what how brain-dead Biden is.

 

[Cthulhu85]

And covid was a Chinese problem. Let them deal with that!

Did you ever hear about something called the Cuba missile crisis? Or read anything with the word history in the title?

Covid was a US problem created in China by the NIH trying to hide risky research.

Yeah, I know all about the cuban missle crisis. I'm very well read on history. It's a passion of mine. We are past large scale ground war. The world has evolved to 5th generation warfare. All Russia is proving is mechanized warfare is antiquated. Heck, the US marines are getting rid of tanks by 2030.

Russia is not a threat to Europe. They got pissed because there was an agreement to keep Ukraine out of NATO. Ukraine wanting to join NATO was the excuse for putin to invade because he wants to reclaim native Russian land. Ukraine is not a cohesive country anyway.

 

[Spartans9312]

McCarthy Smacks Down Russian Reporter on ‘Unlimited’ Aid to Ukraine: ‘I Don’t Support Your Killing of Children’

Ahead of the 2022 midterm elections, McCarthy had signaled his opposition to a “blank check” for U.S. aid to Ukraine.

www.mediaite.com

McCarthy continues to go above and beyond my expectations.

Now I wonder if the Moscow Caucus (Greene, Gaetz, Boebert, and friends) will run their mouths on this. Or Comrade Trump

 

[DANC]

McCarthy Smacks Down Russian Reporter on ‘Unlimited’ Aid to Ukraine: ‘I Don’t Support Your Killing of Children’

Ahead of the 2022 midterm elections, McCarthy had signaled his opposition to a “blank check” for U.S. aid to Ukraine.

www.mediaite.com

McCarthy continues to go above and beyond my expectations.

Now I wonder if the Moscow Caucus (Greene, Gaetz, Boebert, and friends) will run their mouths on this. Or Comrade Trump

Please tell us when 'Comrade Trump' has come out against support for Ukraine.

 

[twenty02]

Please tell us when 'Comrade Trump' has come out against support for Ukraine.

Trump's peace plan was to give away Ukraine territory to Putin

"[Putin] would have never done it. That’s without even negotiating a deal. I could have negotiated. At worst, I could’ve made a deal to take over something, there are certain areas that are Russian-speaking areas, frankly, but you could’ve worked a deal."

 

[DANC]

Trump's peace plan was to give away Ukraine territory to Putin

"[Putin] would have never done it. That’s without even negotiating a deal. I could have negotiated. At worst, I could’ve made a deal to take over something, there are certain areas that are Russian-speaking areas, frankly, but you could’ve worked a deal."

He's a retrograde moron.

Utter bullshit

 

[twenty02]

Utter bullshit

I agree. Just like everything that comes out of his mouth

 

[DANC]

I agree. Just like everything that comes out of his mouth

No, you are spouting bullshit.

 

[twenty02]

No, you are spouting bullshit.

Why? That was his quote with Hannity like a month ago?

 

[DANC]

Why? That was his quote with Hannity like a month ago?

He said nothing about giving land to Russia. It wasn't his to give anyway.

He said a deal could be made. Big whoop. A deal could mean NATO wouldn't add Ukraine.

Once again, you make shit up about Trump and then act like it's a fact. Your intellectual dishonesty is disgusting. But I guess it's only being dishonest if you really believe the bullshit you spout.

 

[twenty02]

He said nothing about giving land to Russia. It wasn't his to give anyway.

He said a deal could be made. Big whoop. A deal could mean NATO wouldn't add Ukraine.

Once again, you make shit up about Trump and then act like it's a fact. Your intellectual dishonesty is disgusting. But I guess it's only being dishonest if you really believe the bullshit you spout.

Then wtf is this supposed to mean? Can you translate this gibberish?

"At worst, I could’ve made a deal to take over something, there are certain areas that are Russian-speaking areas, frankly, but you could’ve worked a deal."


Trump loves Putin. Sad but true

 

[DANC]

Then wtf is this supposed to mean? Can you translate this gibberish?

"At worst, I could’ve made a deal to take over something, there are certain areas that are Russian-speaking areas, frankly, but you could’ve worked a deal."


Trump loves Putin. Sad but true

First of all, he said Russia would not have invaded even if there was no deal.

You'd have to ask him what he meant. What was he going to make a deal to take over? Ukraine is not ours to give away. He never said he'd trade land for Putin not invading.

I figured you knew parts of Ukraine where Russian is predominantly spoken. Is that news to you?

All he said was he could make a deal if he needed to. Here's a fact - he didn't need to. Russia didn't start massing troops for an invasion until well after Trump was gone and Putin witnessed how inept Biden was in Afghanistan.

 

[Circlejoe]

First of all, he said Russia would not have invaded even if there was no deal.

You'd have to ask him what he meant. What was he going to make a deal to take over? Ukraine is not ours to give away. He never said he'd trade land for Putin not invading.

I figured you knew parts of Ukraine where Russian is predominantly spoken. Is that news to you?

All he said was he could make a deal if he needed to. Here's a fact - he didn't need to. Russia didn't start massing troops for an invasion until well after Trump was gone and Putin witnessed how inept Biden was in Afghanistan.

Hell, Trump would have given significant parts of Ukraine to Russia in a negotiated deal, plus there would probably be a side agreement for a major Trump resort development in Moscow.

 

[hoot1]

From ISW 11/26 … https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-april-26-2023

“Russia appears to be continuing a deliberate depopulation campaign in occupied areas of Ukraine in order to facilitate the repopulation of Ukrainian territories with Russians. Ukrainian Deputy Defense Minister Hanna Malyar stated on April 26 that Russia is trying to change the ethnic composition of Ukraine by actively conducting a large-scale resettlement of people mainly from poorer and remote regions of Russia into Ukraine.[1] Malyar noted that the most intensive efforts are ongoing in occupied Luhansk Oblast and remarked that Russia is also deporting Ukrainians and forcibly resettling them in Russia.[2] ISW previously reported on specific instances of Russian authorities overseeing the depopulation and repopulation of areas of occupied Ukraine, particularly in occupied Kherson Oblast over the course of 2022. Ukrainian sources remarked in October 2022 that Russian authorities in then-occupied parts of Kherson Oblast deported large groups of Ukrainian residents to Russia under the guise of humanitarian evacuations and then repopulated their homes with Russian soldiers.[3] Russia may hope to import Russians to fill depopulated areas of Ukraine in order to further integrate occupied areas into Russian socially, administratively, politically, and economically, thereby complicating conditions for the reintegration of these territories into Ukraine. ISW has previously assessed that such depopulation and repopulation campaigns may amount to a deliberate ethnic cleansing effort and apparent violation of the Geneva Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.[4]”

Lebensraum … is what in Russian?

TE, wow, interesting and a renewed awakening perspective on the Ukraine invasion by Russia.

Putin and the KGB's inhumane survival of nationalism at the cost of human life continues.

Worst of all, the Russian people look the other way and don't object.

Thanks.

Turning your thread into a Trump v. Biden discussion happens frequently here. Sad but true.

 

[stollcpa]

TE, wow, interesting and a renewed awakening perspective on the Ukraine invasion by Russia.

Putin and the KGB's inhumane survival of nationalism at the cost of human life continues.

Worst of all, the Russian people look the other way and don't object.

Thanks.

Turning your thread into a Trump v. Biden discussion happens frequently here. Sad but true.

Unfortunately Putin isn’t going to stop. China sees there’s no one to stop them. It’s only a matter of time before they take Taiwan.

 

[DANC]

Hell, Trump would have given significant parts of Ukraine to Russia in a negotiated deal, plus there would probably be a side agreement for a major Trump resort development in Moscow.

Sure, just like he colluded with Russians.... dumbass.

 

[DANC]

Unfortunately Putin isn’t going to stop. China sees there’s no one to stop them. It’s only a matter of time before they take Taiwan.

I wouldn't count on it being any time soon.

 

[Crayfish57]

Hell, Trump would have given significant parts of Ukraine to Russia in a negotiated deal, plus there would probably be a side agreement for a major Trump resort development in Moscow.

You really have no clue and just continue to blither on blindly. GD you are stupid

 

[Univee2]

Sure, just like he colluded with Russians.... dumbass.

And, of course, Ukraine was Trump’s to bargain with.

I thought the Biden Crime Family owned Ukraine.

 

[DANC]

And, of course, Ukraine was Trump’s to bargain with.

I thought the Biden Crime Family owned Ukraine.

Yep, Joe wanted the prosecutor fired and son-of-a-bitch - he was!

 

[Univee2]

Yep, Joe wanted the prosecutor fired and son-of-a-bitch - he was!

Yep, and Trump was going to “give” part of another country that he just happened to own and kept in his back pocket for situations and negotiations such as this.

 

[DANC]

Yep, and Trump was going to “give” part of another country that he just happened to own and kept in his back pocket for situations and negotiations such as this.

That Trump..... he's tricky. No, wait, he's stupid..... I can never remember which it is.

 

[Crayfish57]

That Trump..... he's tricky. No, wait, he's stupid..... I can never remember which it is.

 

[DANC]

From ISW 11/26 … https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-april-26-2023

“Russia appears to be continuing a deliberate depopulation campaign in occupied areas of Ukraine in order to facilitate the repopulation of Ukrainian territories with Russians. Ukrainian Deputy Defense Minister Hanna Malyar stated on April 26 that Russia is trying to change the ethnic composition of Ukraine by actively conducting a large-scale resettlement of people mainly from poorer and remote regions of Russia into Ukraine.[1] Malyar noted that the most intensive efforts are ongoing in occupied Luhansk Oblast and remarked that Russia is also deporting Ukrainians and forcibly resettling them in Russia.[2] ISW previously reported on specific instances of Russian authorities overseeing the depopulation and repopulation of areas of occupied Ukraine, particularly in occupied Kherson Oblast over the course of 2022. Ukrainian sources remarked in October 2022 that Russian authorities in then-occupied parts of Kherson Oblast deported large groups of Ukrainian residents to Russia under the guise of humanitarian evacuations and then repopulated their homes with Russian soldiers.[3] Russia may hope to import Russians to fill depopulated areas of Ukraine in order to further integrate occupied areas into Russian socially, administratively, politically, and economically, thereby complicating conditions for the reintegration of these territories into Ukraine. ISW has previously assessed that such depopulation and repopulation campaigns may amount to a deliberate ethnic cleansing effort and apparent violation of the Geneva Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.[4]”

Lebensraum … is what in Russian?

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

You really have no clue and just continue to blither on blindly. GD you are stupid

Would it be possible for you to add anything to a discussion beyond calling someone stupid?

 

[Crayfish57]

Would it be possible for you to add anything to a discussion beyond calling someone stupid?

Wow since you are one of the liberal gestapo, why dont you list what words we can use? You think and I use that word but you don't think but because you don't actually think. How is that law degree working out for you? Your buddy @UncleMark was just on a thread again bitching because his mom's antiques he thought were worth a lot turned out they were not worth much. So you two buddies want to call me stupid? I told him a long time ago why they were not worth anything because they were ruined .

I will cut you a bit of slack because you know to cook a good rare steak.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Wow since you are one of the liberal gestapo, why dont you list what words we can use? You think and I use that word but you don't think but because you don't actually think. How is that law degree working out for you? Your buddy @UncleMark was just on a thread again bitching because his mom's antiques he thought were worth a lot turned out they were not worth much. So you two buddies want to call me stupid? I told him a long time ago why they were not worth anything because they were ruined .

I will cut you a bit of slack because you know to cook a good rare steak.

So, no, then?

 

[82hoosier]

Would it be possible for you to add anything to a discussion beyond calling someone stupid?

It would be very helpful if there was a thumbs down button. For example, if someone asked can we put a hurricane out with a nuclear bomb, can we cure covid by shining a flashlight up our bum, or how much would it cost to buy Greenland, it would be much more gentile just to give that poster a thumbs down rather than call them a ****ing idiot.

 

[Spartans9312]

Please tell us when 'Comrade Trump' has come out against support for Ukraine.

The anti-Ukraine people tend to fit into one of two major categories

1. Leftist Tankies (think Noam Chomsky). Thinks America is always bad and that Russia is justified in its terror bombings and conquest campaign. Support Russia for their Soviet past and somehow view it as “anti-imperialist”. Populists; who I increasingly view as communists who wave an American flag fall here via the horseshoe theory

2. Trump hard-cultists. They either like Putin because Trump likes him. Or think Russia is some “based” and “trad” country while viewing Ukraine as a caricature of Provincetown, Massachusetts. These people often view Zelensky as gay for some reason and blame him for the impeachment.

Tucker is kind of the nexus between these two groups. You could include smaller groups like the isolationists but given their tendency to be apolitical and/or not influential, I don’t factor them in.

 

[twenty02]

The anti-Ukraine people tend to fit into one of two major categories

1. Leftist Tankies (think Noam Chomsky). Thinks America is always bad and that Russia is justified in its terror bombings and conquest campaign. Support Russia for their Soviet past and somehow view it as “anti-imperialist”. Populists; who I increasingly view as communists who wave an American flag fall here via the horseshoe theory

2. Trump hard-cultists. They either like Putin because Trump likes him. Or think Russia is some “based” and “trad” country while viewing Ukraine as a caricature of Provincetown, Massachusetts. These people often view Zelensky as gay for some reason and blame him for the impeachment.

Tucker is kind of the nexus between these two groups. You could include smaller groups like the isolationists but given their tendency to be apolitical and/or not influential, I don’t factor them in.

Where do hard right, hate the US Govt and international Jewery, love Hitler and Putin fit in (aka Mas)?

I guess group 2 is close enough.

 

[Spartans9312]

Where do hard right, hate the US Govt and international Jewery, love Hitler and Putin fit in (aka Mas)?

I guess group 2 is close enough.

A number similar to Joe’s divorce number.

 

[UncleMark]

Would it be possible for you to add anything to a discussion beyond calling someone stupid?

Rarely. Just delete and move on. Engagement is futile.