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Two Truths

Please refresh my memory of his very very good stretches of play?
Games etc
I already said it, "early in the year". You could go look at the stats too. But I did it...

First 16 games of the year...first "half" of the season.

9.25 PPG
49% 2pFG
41% 3pFG
93% FT

He can shoot...he just didn't at the end of the year. He had a couple decent games after these, but that's largely when he fell off. Mid January is the time frame.
 
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I think Trey could be a starter on a very good high major team. That would require all the players around him to be very good, and very consistent. But I do think his versatility, and overall energy and intensity, could round out a very good starting lineup. At IU, not sure...but as you said, we don't have anything better at this point. He wasn't as up and down, overall, intensity and effort wise as guys like JHS, Race, Jordan, Tamar, and Miller were. But he wasn't immune to lapses either.

Assuming X, Trey, and Malik are 3 of our starters next year. We need 2 high level shooters/scorers for the other 2 starting positions. 1 of them needs some length and ability to guard and rebound with other teams' bigs. Trey's ability to handle the ball, his improved shot, and his versatility on who he can effectively guard, make him a valuable piece. If we get 3 guys that are better than him via portal/late signee, he'd be an awesome 6th man candidate. But I think finding 3 guys that are better, overall, is incredibly unlikely.
Agree with alot said about type of talent we need to recruit. My concern is woodys lack of developing players by not putting them in a game. The "senior-upper class" mentality bothered me alot. ex banks for the seconds he was in yesterday, he might have been one who could have been a help if given more playing time during the year.
 
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Agree with alot said about type of talent we need to recruit. My concern is woodys lack of developing players by not putting them in a game. The "senior-upper class" mentality bothered me alot. ex banks for the seconds he was in yesterday, he might have been one who could have been a help if given more playing time during the year.
It was frustrating to follow, to be sure. One thing none/very few of us have access to is any sort of perspective from practices. We gotta remember, for every game they play, they have 2-3 practices. If Banks, or whoever else, wasn't showing much in practices, it makes it very difficult on the coaches to fully trust them in games. It became obvious the older, returning guys had much longer leashes when it came to getting pulled for mistakes, lower intensity, etc... than the frosh did. I'd add Geronimo to the shorter leash group too, along with Reneau, Banks, and Bates for much of the year.

I guess Race and Kopp had earned leeway on it for whatever reason? As they were very susceptible to lapses on those areas.
 
Lefties just look cooler. How sweet was Cal Cheaney's shot (he turned his body for what its worth).

I liken it to golf swings. There aren't nearly as many Lee Trevino/Jim Furyk type swings out there in youth golf, and with the younger pros. They're all more robatic, efficient, and linear. Less chances for problems, more easily repeatable. But a lot less feel and imagination too.

Reggie Miller, Larry Bird, etc... were special, elite athletes, that had the ability to get their hand headed directly at the rim, despite the awkward shooting form and motion before the release. Today's teachers have found through Kinesiology studies that the most efficient way to shoot is turning your body at an angle, pointing your shoulder at the rim, and extending and releasing your arm directly at the rim. There's much less side to side shoulder movement, less need to compensate and "hold the line" to the rim.

I've tested it out myself...and after about 30 minutes of shooting free throws with my body turned more...I'm royally pissed I didn't figure this out earlier. Its takes MUCH less effort and concentration to keep the ball on line, and that leaves just the strength of the release to focus on. I hit 40 free throws in a row doing it this way, and that was something I was rarely able to do even during my college days.
I've never understood any criticism of Birds shot. It was perfection to me, unblockable and straight lined up. Millers was just crazy arms and legs flailing all directions, never had his elbow under but can't argue with the results. As far as FTs no one is guarding you and you are standing still. FTS have just become a lost art in my opinion. You hit the first one and dont move . All this hand slapping bullshit whether a make or a miss isnt needed. Last night one game announcers even mentioned in closing time how a guy hit the first and never moved from the line. Bates looks like he is shooting 3's with a slingshot.
 
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I've never understood any criticism of Birds shot. It was perfection to me, unblockable and straight lined up. Millers was just crazy arms and legs flailing all directions, never had his elbow under but can't argue with the results. As far as FTs no one is guarding you and you are standing still. FTS have just become a lost art in my opinion. You hit the first one and dont move . All this hand slapping bullshit whether a make or a miss isnt needed. Last night one game announcers even mentioned in closing time how a guy hit the first and never moved from the line. Bates looks like he is shooting 3's with a slingshot.
I don't like Bates actual release either. He does kind of whip/sling shot the ball. Or it looks like he does.
 
Agree with alot said about type of talent we need to recruit. My concern is woodys lack of developing players by not putting them in a game. The "senior-upper class" mentality bothered me alot. ex banks for the seconds he was in yesterday, he might have been one who could have been a help if given more playing time during the year.
If you take minutes played Banks was the best player last night. Yes being a bit dramatic but he made no mistakes, hustled and we made the run with a cpl of his good plays right before half and then we are playing like crap and he never sees the floor. I'd be having him work on ball handling which wasnt bad and push him to be a tall guard I see some Bobby Wilkerson in him
 
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I don't like Bates actual release either. He does kind of whip/sling shot the ball. Or it looks like he does.
I think coaching staff needs to take that on and address it. I don't care i fit worked in HS it isnt at this level and maybe can't be fixed. I think its interesting Reggie being an all time great shooter and I mean he had one of the most horrific forms I could image but You dont change it if it continues to work. he was 6-7 6-8 though and such a quick release vs a wind up
 
I already said it, "early in the year". You could go look at the stats too. But I did it...

First 16 games of the year...first "half" of the season.

9.25 PPG
49% 2pFG
41% 3pFG
93% FT

He can shoot...he just didn't at the end of the year. He had a couple decent games after these, but that's largely when he fell off. Mid January is the time frame.
Likely vs alot easier teams earlier. He was 10 for 55 since 01/22 is you take out the Penn State game.
 
Likely vs alot easier teams earlier. He was 10 for 55 since 01/22 is you take out the Penn State game.
Why take the PSU game out? Why not take one of his 0-fer gmes out?

And yes, the first half of our schedule was easier...but it did include UNC, Xavier, Kansas, Arizona, and a few B10 games. Taken in totality, he was actually lethal in those games...again, approaching 50/40/90, which is a similar feet to hitting .350, or hitting 50 home runs in baseball, 2000 yards rushing in football, etc...

Only 9 players in NBA history have ever done it. So to be sitting close to it, half way through a college season, regardless of competition...it implies he has it in him to shoot the ball.
 
Why take the PSU game out? Why not take one of his 0-fer gmes out?

And yes, the first half of our schedule was easier...but it did include UNC, Xavier, Kansas, Arizona, and a few B10 games. Taken in totality, he was actually lethal in those games...again, approaching 50/40/90, which is a similar feet to hitting .350, or hitting 50 home runs in baseball, 2000 yards rushing in football, etc...

Only 9 players in NBA history have ever done it. So to be sitting close to it, half way through a college season, regardless of competition...it implies he has it in him to shoot the ball.
I have no idea what these stats are supposed to mean.............is it like WAR in baseball? Whatever metric it is and its comparing Bates to the other actual hard stats you quote it obviously doesnt mean shit.
 
1. Woody has improved the IU program immensely since he arrived as the head coach.
2. He's vastly underachieved with the talent he inherited.

Personal anecdote...comparing my experiences with the challenges Woody and IU face, at the high major level, in todays world, obviously isn't a perfect example. But there are core elements that I think fit. So here goes...

From my middle school years through the end of my junior year basketball season, my high school had the same basketball coach. He had some success, won our schools first sectional title in many, many years (my 8th grade year I believe). He was, very much, and offensive minded coach. Which worked out very well for me, as I was a gunner. We had very talented teams my sophomore and junior years, but just couldn't seem to put anything consistently good together. We beat some good teams, but couldn't string wins together. Again, I LOVED playing for that coach, I was having a lot of personal success. My junior year, we finished 8-13, and lost in the first round of sectionals to a team we should have beaten by 20. That night, after the game, our coach told us he was leaving. I actually cried, hard, when he told us.

A month or so later, our new coach was hired. He held a "program meeting" with all players, parents, friends...anyone that wanted to be apart of his program. He told everyone in the meeting that anyone that chooses to play in his program would do the following things. Play Hard. Defend. Be a good teammate. And he proceeded to say that he would teach us how to do all those things. But that they were expectations, not goals. And playing time, status on the team, etc... would be effected by our willingness and ability to do those things. No matter how talented we were. In our individual meetings afterwards, he joked with me about "not making it hard for him to enforce the rules." He said he needed me to play a big role, he needed my offense, but that he wouldn't play me if I didn't take those 3 things seriously. (Up until then, I hadn't taken those things seriously at all).

Anyway...the very next day, he started in with entrenching those things in to our team. They were present in every workout, every weight lifting session, every practice, and every game. I remember getting kicked out of an early practice for throwing a ball too hard at a teammate because I was mad they didn't make a play. I remember many moments early on where I had to take off the "black starter jersey" because I wasn't playing hard enough or wasn't defending...embarrassing for the top returning scorer, only returning all conference kid, etc...

With the exact same starting lineup as the year before...we went 21-4. At one point late in the season we were ranked in the top 15 in the state. We beat a top 5 team in the morning game of regionals, before losing in the final.

My point from the long story...I think the narrative that Woody "did what he could with what he had" is both true, and also not true, at the same time. I think Woody did an excellent job retaining the right players, getting transfer portal guys that would stabilize and help the program, and landing really good HS kids. Those efforts absolutely improved our program. We're unquestionably better today than we were when Archie was fired.

But he hasn't established any sort of good, quality, repeatable basketball principles for his program. They would have been more consistent for him, if he had demanded it of them. They would have defended, made better decisions with the ball, etc... if he had taught those things, and then demanded that they were done. If a HS coach can do it, with a group of talented kids that LOVED playing a certain style that was night and day different than his. Woody could have done it with much better, and more talented and versatile players. Effort, intensity, and focus shouldn't be something up for debate. At least it usually isn't for successful programs. So while I'm excited to see what Woody does this offseason. I'm more than a little wary of how his teams have played. And I'm skeptical a new cast of characters will change the narrative all that much.
This is his 2nd year, the beginning of his third. CMW IS still learning also. He has made mistakes. He needed to play Banks and Gunn more and play JHS less. He was thrown a curve ball with X being gone.JHS is not a pg so it was tough on him. He could not depend on Duncomb. Kopp lacked confidence. He needs to get more athletic whether they are from Indiana or not. He needs hungry players who have busted their asses to get where they are. Everyone does not have to be a 4 or 5-star recruit he just has to be proud to wear the jersey,
 
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I have no idea what these stats are supposed to mean.............is it like WAR in baseball? Whatever metric it is and its comparing Bates to the other actual hard stats you quote it obviously doesnt mean shit.
50 percent 2pFG, 40 percent 3pFG, 90 percent FT...

Its a "club" that the great shooters all aspire to be a part of, to finish a season with those numbers. Only 9 NBA players have ever done it. 1 WNBA player I believe.

Bird, Miller, Durant, Curry, Irving are a few of them that have done it.

I'm NOT saying Bates is at that level. I'm just saying that doing it for a stretch as long as half a college season, implies you can shoot the ball. And he averaged over 9 points a game, so it wasn't like he was 3 for 6, 2 for 5, and 9 for 10, respectively.
 
This isn’t wrong but the biggest factor IMO was that their heart wasn’t in it. Now I heard that JHS was really torn up in the locker room.

I was a bit surprised by that TBH
He is a winner, I bet he has never felt lost before. He should stay and learn. Learn from X, CMW on how to be a pg.
 
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He could become an Al Durham type player somewhere else. Al was frustratingly inconsistent under Archie. He became a consistent go to player at Providence.

I hope Bates regains his confidence here. It'll be a great story if he does. But a change of scenery may end up being what's best for everyone. And that'll be fine too.
Do you always leave when things are hard? You talk about mental toughness. It's like a marriage. Do you leave when things are hard, the first sign of trouble you run for the hills? CMW saw something in you. Go to work.
 
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50 percent 2pFG, 40 percent 3pFG, 90 percent FT...

Its a "club" that the great shooters all aspire to be a part of, to finish a season with those numbers. Only 9 NBA players have ever done it. 1 WNBA player I believe.

Bird, Miller, Durant, Curry, Irving are a few of them that have done it.

I'm NOT saying Bates is at that level. I'm just saying that doing it for a stretch as long as half a college season, implies you can shoot the ball. And he averaged over 9 points a game, so it wasn't like he was 3 for 6, 2 for 5, and 9 for 10, respectively.
Lets compare IU stats and Jay Edwards and Steve Alford to him. I just don't see it and don't see it ever happening. Edwards was 53% 3 point on a lot more volume . was that Freshman yr? Alford only had 3 pt one yr and he was over 50% from there , his FT had to be right at or above 90% I think his sr yr was his worst FT % but even if it was 89% . I didnt look any of this up but Alfords 2 pt % had to be right there at 50% as much higher volume and focus of an offense. You can extrapolate things from a short period out to a season but most of the time those will fail. There is really only player in sports I think using those kind of metrics over a career and that is Ted Williams and his lost yrs in baseball as a fighter pilot. You can take his avgs before and after and legitimate say was the by far the best hitter ever . A few games of Bates spreading that out and he isn't Ted Williams
 
Do you always leave when things are hard? You talk about mental toughness. It's like a marriage. Do you leave when things are hard, the first sign of trouble you run for the hills? CMW saw something in you. Go to work.
Oh I'm fully on board with that mindset. Just saying if both Woody and Bates aren't on the same page with where we're going and where he's going, no harm in him finding somewhere that aligns more with him. Maybe there was friction between them with Bates's role on the team?
 
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YOU can say the same thing about Leal, Duncomb, or Galloway. I do not hear you asking them to leave, No one honors their commitments to the student-athlete. Why is he in school to get an education first and then play basketball?
 
This isn’t wrong but the biggest factor IMO was that their heart wasn’t in it. Now I heard that JHS was really torn up in the locker room.

I was a bit surprised by that TBH
You dance with the girl, who you brought to the dance.
 
He is, for sure, streaky. I think the fact that he ended on such a bad streak, is clouding many peoples views of what he's capable of though.
By "ended on such a bad streak" do you mean January, February, and March?
 
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I don't think he inherited that much talent. Nothing I have seen from Bates, Geronimo, Kopp, Galloway, Leal, Race, Duncomb, (Phinisee, Stewart last year) show me that they are that talented. TJD was talented. The others were role players with glaring limits. He brought in JHS and Reneau, who have talent but were freshman and need to grow. Gunn and Banks are projects.
No, they are freshmen who will improve if given a chance.
 
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They is simply no way bates should return imo. He is a lost cause and best for everyone if he does not return. We need a major major overhaul.
I do not want to single out Bates but I agree he was not a factor. Too many other short comings to blame all on Bates.
With at least 3 gone (Trace, Race, Miller), 2 more likely but not confirmed (Jalen if he goes pro and X if the ncaa says no to his application), and who knows regarding Duncomb and Bates.
Could be 7 gone.
Portal needs are huge. Do people want to play for Woody? Want to play for IU? Do we have NIL money to compete for players that may need finances for family support?
I do not know the answers, as always, time will tell.
 
I think Trey could be a starter on a very good high major team. That would require all the players around him to be very good, and very consistent. But I do think his versatility, and overall energy and intensity, could round out a very good starting lineup. At IU, not sure...but as you said, we don't have anything better at this point. He wasn't as up and down, overall, intensity and effort wise as guys like JHS, Race, Jordan, Tamar, and Miller were. But he wasn't immune to lapses either.

Assuming X, Trey, and Malik are 3 of our starters next year. We need 2 high level shooters/scorers for the other 2 starting positions. 1 of them needs some length and ability to guard and rebound with other teams' bigs. Trey's ability to handle the ball, his improved shot, and his versatility on who he can effectively guard, make him a valuable piece. If we get 3 guys that are better than him via portal/late signee, he'd be an awesome 6th man candidate. But I think finding 3 guys that are better, overall, is incredibly unlikely.
Galloway is a 6th man, he works hard and will improve. Malik will improve also. No one mentions JG. JG has to put in a lot of work this summer. He could be that athletic forward he is looking for.
 
By "ended on such a bad streak" do you mean January, February, and March?
2nd half of the season...not difficult to understand the stretches I'm talking about. If we're going on Dates...

November through mid January good. Mid January through mid March, not good.
 
I do not want to single out Bates but I agree he was not a factor. Too many other short comings to blame all on Bates.
With at least 3 gone (Trace, Race, Miller), 2 more likely but not confirmed (Jalen if he goes pro and X if the ncaa says no to his application), and who knows regarding Duncomb and Bates.
Could be 7 gone.
Portal needs are huge. Do people want to play for Woody? Want to play for IU? Do we have NIL money to compete for players that may need finances for family support?
I do not know the answers, as always, time will tell.
I do not think 7 will leave,,
 
I do not want to single out Bates but I agree he was not a factor. Too many other short comings to blame all on Bates.
With at least 3 gone (Trace, Race, Miller), 2 more likely but not confirmed (Jalen if he goes pro and X if the ncaa says no to his application), and who knows regarding Duncomb and Bates.
Could be 7 gone.
Portal needs are huge. Do people want to play for Woody? Want to play for IU? Do we have NIL money to compete for players that may need finances for family support?
I do not know the answers, as always, time will tell.
Gone for certain: TJD, Race, Miller
Likely also gone: JHS
Likely back: X (he'll get his waiver, probably already knows he will), Trey, Anthony
Incoming: Gabe, Jakai
I'd be surprised if they left: CJ, Kaleb
I wouldn't be surprised if they left: Tamar, Jordan, Logan

We need more post players, and more shooters/scorers...from the portal and/or late frosh signees...
 
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Oh I'm fully on board with that mindset. Just saying if both Woody and Bates aren't on the same page with where we're going and where he's going, no harm in him finding somewhere that aligns more with him. Maybe there was friction between them with Bates's role on the team?
There is nothing like pressure when you put it on yourself. When everyone is crapping on you telling you to leave, how do you handle that? how do you grow?
 
Gone for certain: TJD, Race, Miller
Likely also gone: JHS
Likely back: X (he'll get his waiver, probably already knows he will), Trey, Anthony
Incoming: Gabe, Jakai
I'd be surprised if they left: CJ, Kaleb
I wouldn't be surprised if they left: Tamar, Jordan, Logan

We need more post players, and more shooters/scorers...from the portal and/or late frosh signees...
I would say its 98% JHS is gone and likely two of those bottom 5 leave. I think we will have three or four open spots.
 
By "ended on such a bad streak" do you mean January, February, and March?
I agree GThomas everyone is crapping on the team, I want to see their mental toughness. Are they going to ban together, cut bait, and run?
 
I do not want to single out Bates but I agree he was not a factor. Too many other short comings to blame all on Bates.
With at least 3 gone (Trace, Race, Miller), 2 more likely but not confirmed (Jalen if he goes pro and X if the ncaa says no to his application), and who knows regarding Duncomb and Bates.
Could be 7 gone.
Portal needs are huge. Do people want to play for Woody? Want to play for IU? Do we have NIL money to compete for players that may need finances for family support?
I do not know the answers, as always, time will tell.
You could throw everyone on the team under the bus. Last night , they sucked not just Bates. YOU win as a team, you lose as a team.
 
I would say its 98% JHS is gone and likely two of those bottom 5 leave. I think we will have three or four open spots.
I do not think so, that's wishful thinking. Indiana honors their commitments. The student-athletes honors theirs
 
One reason I dont want Bates back is Woodson seems to let him shoot at will no matter what. Without TJD I fear he wold jakc up 20 shots a game next year and hit about 3 of them. Every time he shot last night I knew it was not going in you could just feel it.
Woodson has said in interviews that his players have the green light for any good shot. Key being good. He wants them taking good shots when they come without fear of missing. He seems to think accuracy and confidence will follow
 
I’m going to throw this out here for opinions. Woodson had 2 years to help TJD develop a 10’ to 12’ jump shot. An athlete with his ability should have been able to accomplish this. Our entire season would have been different had that happened. Sadly it didn’t. Whose fault is this?
 
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YOU can say the same thing about Leal, Duncomb, or Galloway. I do not hear you asking them to leave, No one honors their commitments to the student-athlete. Why is he in school to get an education first and then play basketball?
There’s program for those kids, Fred Glass’s bill of rights. If a player is asked to leave, IU will honor their scholarship. Some kids are not here for that. JHS did not come to IU to get a degree, unlike a kid like Leal.
 
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There’s program for those kids, Fred Glass’s bill of rights. If a player is asked to leave, IU will honor their scholarship. Some kids are not here for that. JHS did not come to IU to get a degree, unlike a kid like Leal.
How do you know, maybe he wants a degree. I did not know about the bill of rights that's news to me.
 
1. Woody has improved the IU program immensely since he arrived as the head coach.
2. He's vastly underachieved with the talent he inherited.

Personal anecdote...comparing my experiences with the challenges Woody and IU face, at the high major level, in todays world, obviously isn't a perfect example. But there are core elements that I think fit. So here goes...

From my middle school years through the end of my junior year basketball season, my high school had the same basketball coach. He had some success, won our schools first sectional title in many, many years (my 8th grade year I believe). He was, very much, and offensive minded coach. Which worked out very well for me, as I was a gunner. We had very talented teams my sophomore and junior years, but just couldn't seem to put anything consistently good together. We beat some good teams, but couldn't string wins together. Again, I LOVED playing for that coach, I was having a lot of personal success. My junior year, we finished 8-13, and lost in the first round of sectionals to a team we should have beaten by 20. That night, after the game, our coach told us he was leaving. I actually cried, hard, when he told us.

A month or so later, our new coach was hired. He held a "program meeting" with all players, parents, friends...anyone that wanted to be apart of his program. He told everyone in the meeting that anyone that chooses to play in his program would do the following things. Play Hard. Defend. Be a good teammate. And he proceeded to say that he would teach us how to do all those things. But that they were expectations, not goals. And playing time, status on the team, etc... would be effected by our willingness and ability to do those things. No matter how talented we were. In our individual meetings afterwards, he joked with me about "not making it hard for him to enforce the rules." He said he needed me to play a big role, he needed my offense, but that he wouldn't play me if I didn't take those 3 things seriously. (Up until then, I hadn't taken those things seriously at all).

Anyway...the very next day, he started in with entrenching those things in to our team. They were present in every workout, every weight lifting session, every practice, and every game. I remember getting kicked out of an early practice for throwing a ball too hard at a teammate because I was mad they didn't make a play. I remember many moments early on where I had to take off the "black starter jersey" because I wasn't playing hard enough or wasn't defending...embarrassing for the top returning scorer, only returning all conference kid, etc...

With the exact same starting lineup as the year before...we went 21-4. At one point late in the season we were ranked in the top 15 in the state. We beat a top 5 team in the morning game of regionals, before losing in the final.

My point from the long story...I think the narrative that Woody "did what he could with what he had" is both true, and also not true, at the same time. I think Woody did an excellent job retaining the right players, getting transfer portal guys that would stabilize and help the program, and landing really good HS kids. Those efforts absolutely improved our program. We're unquestionably better today than we were when Archie was fired.

But he hasn't established any sort of good, quality, repeatable basketball principles for his program. They would have been more consistent for him, if he had demanded it of them. They would have defended, made better decisions with the ball, etc... if he had taught those things, and then demanded that they were done. If a HS coach can do it, with a group of talented kids that LOVED playing a certain style that was night and day different than his. Woody could have done it with much better, and more talented and versatile players. Effort, intensity, and focus shouldn't be something up for debate. At least it usually isn't for successful programs. So while I'm excited to see what Woody does this offseason. I'm more than a little wary of how his teams have played. And I'm skeptical a new cast of characters will change the narrative all that much.
Ironic that Woodson hasn't put his stamp on the program with his expectations (that we know of) when he came from a program led by a coach that had very specific requirements and let you know in no short order that you weren't meeting them. I posted previously that Woodson recently stated that he "figuring out this coaching thing". Perhaps this is the next criteria for him to develop. It might go a long way in bringing consistency to a team that lacked it late in the season.
 
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