Two Truths
- Thread starter IUNorth
- Start date
We got run out of the building by Kansas and Arizona. Sure we beat Purdue but is that really saying much they lost in the 1st round and were never the number one team in the country imo. We also lost by 30 to Iowa on our home court. MSU will soon bow out and the big ten will go 23 years without a title.
Providence, maybe a good destination for Bates too. He reminds me of a poor man's DelRay Brooks anyway. Big feet , awkward ,almost too long of arms
And a dad who has his name of the back of his shirt so you know who he is!
That surprises me too , maybe it's just his demeanor on court that seems a bit too unemotional
Sadly the last title won by a big ten team , they weren't in the big ten yet
I will never understand how recruiting services can be so far off on guys like Bates and Lander. Do they just see them have one good weekend at AAU and say ok those are five star players. I dont even think bates is a top 150 player let alone a 5 star.
VanPastorMan
Hall of Famer
Brooks was a worse outside shooter than Tamar. Brooks looked like he was shooting with a broken arm.
It can be argued that Durham was actually worse at Providence. He certainly shot the ball worse at Providence. If he was better, he was only mildly so. I think Bates ceiling is WAY higher than that.
Actually even though he didn't do much at WKU , after x went down having Lander for a few short stints per game would have been useful . He did pretty well against Syracuse when pressed in to service , not looking for scoring but a quick little guard to change up things.
Wasn't Brooks deal in high school to just drive past smaller guards and score layups? I thought I once read knight offered him without ever seeing him play.
They are very similar , don't know about being a lefty, Brooks was a long armed 6-4 guard that dominated in HS.He had oversized feet and same funky wind up shot like Bates as I recall. I give X credit his push shot was actually working last year but Bates shot needs a total makeover. I think sometimes why the guys that aren't as good of athletes have great jumpers is they don't have a choice even in HS. Guys like Bates can get away with it in HS but not college.
Maybe...but I think X going down allowed for JHS to blossom a little more. Not sure Lander would have gotten much of a chance. JHS still would have slid over, and Trey and Tamar would still have been the guys that helped handle the ball when JHS went out.
One reason I dont want Bates back is Woodson seems to let him shoot at will no matter what. Without TJD I fear he wold jakc up 20 shots a game next year and hit about 3 of them. Every time he shot last night I knew it was not going in you could just feel it.
Not X playing minutes but a change of pace for a cpl minutes out of a TV timeout . He does have a lot of quickness . Having a 4th guard available that could dribble could've been helpful
Could be. I held out as long as anyone on the Lander hype. In the end, it just became obvious he wasn't ready for high major basketball.
He finished the year hitting 37% from 3 on 99 shots (3rd most on the team) and 93% from the line. Wouldn't surprise me to see him picked up by Kansas if he went in the portal. Self would give him the clear role North described. But I think Woodson will too.
Couple of questions for the participants on the this thread:
1. Not knowing what departures/arrivals via the portal, if next year’s team made the NCAAs would that season be considered “continued progress” and/or “success”?
-I would say yes (3 straight ncaa’s, not achieved since 2001-2003. Reflects a steadying program.
-Likely done as a less talented team
-Likely would highlight growth of individual players
-Now, expectations for 24-25, and 25-26 would be higher both for recruiting and performance
2. If that was coupled with strong classes in 2024 & 2025 does that impact your opinion of the strength / trajectory of the program? Or will it take S16, F4, beyond before considering the program “better”?
-If next year the team made the NCAAs, and two recruiting classes were stacking up, I’d go from pessimistic to optimistic that the forthcoming seasons would result in strong conference and NCAA results
-To really declare the program as healthy, I would need to see an E8+ result coupled with a conference championship as a result.
Lol
You are reaching or trolling
Bates proved his worth all season, I hoped he would turn it around but evidence shows he was vastly over rated and blown up on here. The comments from Woodson and TJD at beginning of the season were just talk….
Good teammate poor basketball player
Reaching possibly...
But I only reach when I see something I think I can grab. There's definitely evidence that he could end up a really good college player. I hope he does, and I think it'd be really cool if he did that at IU.
We need him to feel he can shoot at will. This year everyone had on their mind the question of whether the ball should go to Trayce. Outside TJD and JHS Tamar was the only regular who could create his shot. We desperately needed that. Every team needs guys like that.
He shot nearly 40% for the year from the 3, taking nearly 100 3's, despite falling off a cliff the last month or so.
He is, for sure, streaky. I think the fact that he ended on such a bad streak, is clouding many peoples views of what he's capable of though.
But the thing about being streaky is it implies you're capable of good streaks.
If I'm Woody, I double down on Bates, give him an elevated role. Tell him I want him to take the team over alongside X. He's going to have legit competition from guys like Trey, CJ, Gabe, and Jakai...so if he doesn't end up finding his shot, at least you've cultivated an emotional locker room leader. I think the two freshman are going to play a more important role next year than it seems most are giving them a chance for. So if Bates continues to fizzle, so be it, Cupps and Newton will play more.
This is interesting to me. I generally never blame a player for the type of issues you cited above. If he’s taking bad shots, making bad decisions, etc…, then I would expect the coaching staff to clarify expectations regarding shot selection and appropriate decision making or simply stop sending the kid out there. Maybe even encourage them to ply their trade somewhere else. Do you think that has been done with Bates? Is he fully aware of the expectations or consequences? Do you think anyone ever pulled Bates aside and said something like “son, you are turning your hips away from the target and leaning sideways on most of your shot attempts. That may work in the nba, but it ain’t working for you. Now, while everyone else is going through a normal practice today, I want you to work with one of the assistants and take at least 1,000 shots where you don’t turn your waist and/or lean on your shot. Once you improve your shot mechanics to be more repeatable and consistent, we’ll talk at greater length about your playing time.”
Do you think anyone has ever had a conversation like that with Bates, or JHS, or anyone else on the team? Because I sincerely doubt it, as nothing ever changed in terms of shot selection or mechanics for any of the players that showed these tendencies. But they kept getting run out there. He’ll, did Miller Koop ever make an off balance, leaning 3 on a fast break? I don’t remember one, but he sure didn’t seem to hesitate lofting them up there or suffer any consequences for doing so.
Izzo teams play their best at the end of the season, historically speaking. They also suffer some head scratching losses during the pre- conference schedule every year. Could that be because guys who don’t buy in to the core principles of his program, no matter how talented, sit their ass on the bench to send a message early on, so that everyone is on the same page come March? I seem to remember another coach for Indiana once that was kinda like that.
I also see Bates talent, but it’s unbridled. He’s trying to emulate NBA mechanics, moves, passes, etc…, but his skill set can’t cash the checks. He needs to be coached. And if he won’t accept that coaching, then he should be encouraged to move on.
Honestly I have my doubts on how much coaching about things like that go on. Woodson was a middle of the road NBA coach and by the time players get there they arent getting coached on things like that. Overall we are at a sad state of basketball from the ground up all the way to the NBA. AAU stuff I see as a huge problem. Are there even summer BBall camps like the RMK days ?
Even before his shooting slump he wasn’t even starting, his defense is atrocious. Decision making poor, ball handling poor, ability to create his own shot laughable, ability to drive to basket non existent.
Fact is Tamar was ranked during the COVID year. No proper evaluation, then recruited by Smart at Texas. Smart leaves Texas but doesn’t take Tamar (red flag)
Then Tamar demands a black only coach.
My opinion, he talked and acted a big game all the way to the big stage. Lights camera…..cut
None of us know what types of stuff Woody and the staff discuss with the players on a daily basis. But I actually think the type of stuff you mentioned, is probably more in line with what they're teaching them.
Bates' shot mechanics are fine. He's a 90+ percent free throw shooter, and until the last month or so of the season, he was the best shooter on our team. The angled body shot approach is now being taught all the way down to the youth levels, much more prevalently than I ever remember it. My son is working through turning his body a little bit more right now. I hammered the squared up approach with him so much during his younger, formative years, that he tends to shift back to being truly square. And when that happens, he's much less consistent with his shot being on target than when he's turning his body a little bit.
Anyway...I think your Izzo comments are probably spot on. Not sure I agree on all the Bates stuff though.
Bates feet and angle is extreme
Yes absolutely you should have a angled approach but Bates is extreme and his shot is flat.
It was almost two months since the MS game on 01/22 which was the last time bates shot good. He was like 18% since. He also makes horrible decisions with the ball he turned it over several times last night when we were on a run.
if you think Bates shot mechanics are fine I don't know what more to tell you except they aren't
He's inconsistent in all those things you mentioned. As in he had very, very good stretches of play in literally all the examples you mentioned. And then obviously a lot of bad, bad stretches too. That inconsistency was par for every other player on the team, not named TJD.
I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he's better than he was at the end of this season. And more of the player he showed this season through January.
Again, inconsistent still, but not as bad as what we saw the last month or so.
I cannot believe somebody exactly wrote this two years ago!!! I really wonder what kind of competition he had in high school.
Draft Notes
The 6-5 lefty gives Indiana a big time talent at the shooting guard position.Bates has been coming on strong and moving up the rankings. He’s probably not a one and done but could be a future draft pick if he stays on his current trajectory.
He does turn more than most. Maybe that is an issue for him? But I think its 99% mental at this point. And he doesn't play in long enough stretches usually, to shoot himself out of it. Although he did last night because JHS got into foul trouble.
Its kind of like the yips with the putter.
How long you planning to play him for? My gawd he is like 10 for 55 saw someone post. I'm fine with letting guys that can really hit shoot badly. Reggie Millers shot was scary for me to watch but he was deadly. If we bored a hole in the floor I don't think Bates could roll the ball in right now.
Most modern shooting coaches would say its fine. Maybe turned a little too much, but rather that, than being too squared.
It blew my mind the first time I read about it too. But the more I did, the more it makes sense. Squared up is largely a myth if you really start thinking about it. What did your first coach teach you to do? Right foot slightly forward of your left foot, shoulder width apart...I assume. They said body and shoulders square to the target, but that goes against the body's natural position when you have 1 foot staggered in front of the other. So if you do "square up", you're actually torquing your body slightly away from where it naturally wants to be. So when you shoot, you have to compensate for that to keep your arm going towards the basket.
Staying angled, pointing your shoulder towards the rim, and extending your arm directly at the rim are how nearly all modern shooting coaches teach it any more.
Granted left handed makes a difference . TJD isnt really a left hander in all facets of life. I can tell Bates is. my dad is a lefty and he is just different to try and do things right handed people do. I mean like helping do anything physical, moving furniture etc. You would think on opposite ends of a couch it would be perfect one R one L but never , they just do everything backwards regardless in my experience.
Please refresh my memory of his very very good stretches of play?
Games etc
Lefties just look cooler. How sweet was Cal Cheaney's shot (he turned his body for what its worth).
I liken it to golf swings. There aren't nearly as many Lee Trevino/Jim Furyk type swings out there in youth golf, and with the younger pros. They're all more robatic, efficient, and linear. Less chances for problems, more easily repeatable. But a lot less feel and imagination too.
Reggie Miller, Larry Bird, etc... were special, elite athletes, that had the ability to get their hand headed directly at the rim, despite the awkward shooting form and motion before the release. Today's teachers have found through Kinesiology studies that the most efficient way to shoot is turning your body at an angle, pointing your shoulder at the rim, and extending and releasing your arm directly at the rim. There's much less side to side shoulder movement, less need to compensate and "hold the line" to the rim.
I've tested it out myself...and after about 30 minutes of shooting free throws with my body turned more...I'm royally pissed I didn't figure this out earlier. Its takes MUCH less effort and concentration to keep the ball on line, and that leaves just the strength of the release to focus on. I hit 40 free throws in a row doing it this way, and that was something I was rarely able to do even during my college days.
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