Trump Zelensky today.....
- Thread starter dr.jb
- Start date
It’s time to realize that Zelenskyy is a stubborn idiot and maybe corrupt too. The only reason he can take his positions is with our money. Saying so does not make me a Putin lover.
Crimea history is not at all clear about which country it should belong to. Zelenskyy’s stubbornness about it is frustrating.
Any comments on the other half of that, Russia wants territory they haven't yet taken in the deal? That answer may make you a Putin lover.
Or maybe we should hand them back Alaska since it once belonged to Russia.
Alaska? Yet another discussion terminator from you. Why do you respond to my posts?
Because you admitted long ago on the other board that you like to jerk people around here. How do I know when you are or are not? So, I just assume every answer you make is that. Whenever you post, announce if it is jerking people around or serious and I will take the appropriate posts seriously.
What rights does Russia have to the 4 oblasts that make it flat out theirs? Just because those areas were once under their control doesn't mean they still are.
Do we really want to teach Russia that they can always get exactly what they want by invading. Even if they can't win in the battle, they will win the peace?
I've said for a while Crimea is a lost cause to Ukraine. But Ukraine giving up land they haven't lost? That's patently ridiculous. If they are to lose that land, they must be allowed to join NATO to defend what is left. Russia cannot win on every.single.point.
I’ve never really followed global matters. Didn’t study in school. Didn’t read about it after. Just not interested. I’ve enjoyed reading these threads and the 30,000 feet view of the war.
I’ve also during bouts of insomnia been watching social media influencers. Bald and bankrupt. Ben the backpacker. Others. They’re on the ground in cities all over Ukraine. Russia. Riding trains. Hanging with the people. Their views are very different and somewhat surprising. This isn’t just Putin. Russians on the street believe in the war. Just randoms. How many Ukrainians view things is also interesting.
Trump has a very reasonable proposal on the table. Zelenskyy is an idiot for not supporting it as a way to move forward. He is going to FA and all of Ukraine will end up in Russian hands.
I get the Russian people, they were once an empire, number 2 in the world. Now? Their economy is smaller than Germany, Japan, California. Their military no longer strikes fear. They are the junior partner to China. It has been quite the fall.
Ukraine has had some bad experiences being part of Russia/USSR. Stalin wasn't particularly nice to Ukraine. That sort of institutional memory doesn't fade too easily. I can get why they don't want to be a vassal to them again.
We need realistic suggestions. Crimea isn't coming back to Ukraine. Ukraine isn't going to get all the conquered territory back, and probably none of it. We saw in Korea that the line the deal is signed makes a huge difference. To give up territory they shed blood to keep? That is a big problem. IF that is going to happen, Russia should have to pay massive war reparations and NATO admission should be on the table. In any circumstance, any Ukrainians in conquered lands who want to return to Ukraine should be allowed, and any Ukrainians who want their children returned should get them back. Those last two should be total deal breakers for anyone.
What is reasonable? Ukraine gives up land they still own. They cannot join NATO, must present a neutral posture. What does Ukraine get from this deal that makes it reasonable?
Actually, it's very clear Crimea is part of Ukraine, as agreed to by Putin himself in the 90s.
A strongly worded message isn't going to get it done.
Now you’re a pro-Russia/anti-Ukraine MAGA. Your changes are really disturbing.
You should watch that bald and bankrupt guy on YouTube. You’d like him Marv. His schtick is going to places no one wants to go
Russia is struggling to hang on to what they've already stolen. How are they going to take over the entire country.
Trump's proposal is only reasonable to Russia. To anyone else, it looks like rewarding aggression.
And lest you think any agreement that leaves Russian troops in place, look at what happened to Chechnya 2 years after a 'peace agreement' was signed.
Russia views any treaty as a chance to regroup and try again in a few years.
I believe what I said was I like to be provocative and stimulate interesting discussions. All but a few of the interesting posters are gone.
What do you make of the security guantees Trump offered, and apparently the UK is on board with. Will that work or will another Obama-like president ignore it as Obama ignored the first security obligation. It is very difficult for a present day president to create a binding commitment for a future president. Unless Trumps deal becomes a formal treaty obligation, any part of it can be canned by a future president.
Unless we agree to commit our armed forces to this war, I believe the future Ukraine will be all Russian at some point if war doesn’t end.
Russia was also a party to the agreement between Russia the US and Ukraine for Ukraine's security. We know how Russia totally ignored that by invading Crimea and then by invading the rest of Ukraine and attempt to take Kiev. We actually didn't ignore it. We provided lethal security assistance and cooperation.
A number of years passed between Crimea and the rest of Ukraine ( and one you know who as president). Was Crimea a test case? In any event we pussy- footed around during Putin’s invasion prep and for the first year plus of the war. Biden was scared shitless of pissing off Putin and obsessed with avoiding escalation.
Did Trump make security guarantees? If so, I didn't see them. Not saying he didn't, but I didn't see them. I saw him offering business opportunities to Ukraine and Russia, with the assumption having business interests would lessen the chance of military operations. Are you thinking of sending EU troops in ? I think that's fine, as far as it goes, but unless the US guarantees it, I think they would be next to useless.
100% agree there needs to be treaties ensuring whatever 'deal' is made. But, honestly, the West are the only ones who honor treaties. Russia has used treaties until they no longer want to follow them and then they break them - that's been their history.
Obama's inaction was shameful. Putin has intimiated the US with the threat of nuclear war. Then Biden's incompetency in Afghanistan convinced Putin he could invade the rest of Ukraine with little conesquence. It was only because of US and NATO training and arms during the Trump administration that Ukraine was able to hold Russia to where they are now. That shouldn't be forgotten in all this. Biden released weapons too slowly and slowed down Ukraine counter offensives, which were greatly effective.
I have more faith in Ukraine's ability to hold Russia at bay, now that the EU has finally awoken and Ukraine has developed some of their own defense capability.
Howso? If Putin was willing to start WW3, wouldn't he have done so by now? Hell, Ukraine is invading Russia itself and bombing sites in Russia a thousand miles from Donbas.
Putin is cunning, but he's not stupid. He knows he couldn't win a non-nuclear war and he knows he'd be incinterated if he tried to use nukes against the West.
We need to quit acting like a helpless giant.
If Axios is right it appears the specifics on a robust security guarantee are low:
- "A robust security guarantee" involving an ad hoc group of European countries and potentially also like-minded non-European countries. The document is vague in terms of how this peacekeeping operation would function and does not mention any U.S. participation.
- The return of the small part of Kharkiv oblast Russia has occupied.
- Unimpeded passage of the Dnieper River, which runs along the front line in parts of southern Ukraine.
- Compensation and assistance for rebuilding, though the document does not say where the funding will come from.
Yes, painfully clear.
I could see Ukraine accepting some kind of interenational administration of Crimea and those eastern and southern areas IF Russia would withdraw troops and that area is demilitarized.
Russians keep a port in Crimea? I'd be OK with that, although I don't know if Ukraine would. We have bases all over the world (GITMO, for example), so it's not unprecedented.
A lot of details would have to be worked out, but I doubt Ukraine accepts the general framework.
I doubt Russia accepts a DMZ in those areas, but it is a great idea.
Do you think Russia will be our antagonist and enemy forever? Or is there a better way? Russia is rich in energy and could be a huge market.
The shape of the security guarantee remains to be negotiated and it will include at least the UK. Trump put the general idea on the table and so far Zelenskyy hadn’t approved.
Philosophically, what is different between Russia and China? Do we OK China taking Taiwan because they aren't going to be our antagonist forever, and they could be a huge market? Is the size of the market our chief principle as a nation?
If China invades Taiwan, why shouldn't we stand back and offer to negotiate Taiwan's surrender? That's pretty much what we are trying to do. China would be very thankful.
Largely speaking the US has opposed nations wantonly invading neighbors in land grabs for a long time. Are you suggesting it is something we should now just accept as a matter of course?
During the presidential campaign Trump declared he could bring peace within 24 hours after being elected.
Recently he explained his declaration was just "sarcasm".
When hearing Trump's peace declaration my thoughts ran in the direction as to whether the proclamation would help or hinder his ultimate goal of him being a deal maker.
My hope was Trump knew something which convinced him his proclamation wasn't just campaign rhetoric. Thoughts went to the "October Surprise" and the Reagan campaign having some knowledge about the Iranian hostages being about to be released.
At this point in time, I lean in the direction that Trump putting himself at the center of the peace negotiating was both counter productive and just electioneering.
Thus the question before us is,
Are they closer to peace since Trump took over, or is the outlook about the same,
or what?
I never took him seriously on that. You don't resolve a war in a day.
However, I thought he'd issue some kind of ultimatium to Putin: make peace or we're arming Ukraine to the teeth. I expected some kind of agreement for forces to stand down and then have referendums or some kind of international overview of the administration of those areas. But it looks like that isn't even being considered. And I have no idea why not.
Just stopping fighting with forces in place and at the current positions isn't any kind of 'peace agreement'. It's just a breather for both sides.
And I don't think Trump's motivation is just to save lives. He thought nothing of smoking terrorists, wherever they are or blocking Israel in Gaza (which I agree with). He's threatened China and Iran with military force. I don't think he's exactly a pacifist.
I'm sure he sees Russia as a huge market, with huge amounts of raw materials. He probably sees Ukrain as a nuisance, but I think he's naive if he thinks Russia will stop at Ukraine. If Putin is not stopped in Ukraine, he or his successors will look to the next country to take over. Definitely Moldava, maybe Romania. Putin and the Russian leadership wants to get the USSR band back together.
Trump is just acting totally different than in his first term. Then, he was warning Europe about depending on Russian energy and killed Nordstream. He armed Ukraine and gave them invaluable training. That doesn't seem like the actions of someone who is Putin's puppet. But something seems to have changed and I just don't know what it woudl be, unless he's still pissed at Ukraine for playing footsie with the Bidens.
So, WW3 it is. No other option but to enact full regime change as Russia has shown they can never be trusted. Let's go!!!
Meaningless drivel.
Ask USAID, the CIA and VOA how many $Billions were spent organizing and propagandizing in the Republics.
Se if they answer.
